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11:00 AM
@Ven sliding weeks(TM)
 
@sehe I don't get it.
 
IOW you probably can
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That makes sense. It's humor, so that explains. Oh wait. I misread your name as Bartek, somehow. Retracted my snarky comment :>
 
@milleniumbug yeah, but if I do it in-source, then I have to do it before all other includes, and then it will only be for that one object file...
 
So don't do that in source
 
11:02 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't get the whole of code golf, 99% of the time
 
@milleniumbug but either way if I link this with another lib that doesn't have this, won't the macros conflict? :(
 
Any program with UB would do.
They're all fungible.
Grab any answer, replace the program with any other program with UB: it still works.
 
'Demons rush out of your nose and kill your cat'
 
@melak47 I'd assume unless you're passing windows structures to another lib, you'll be fine
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well yeah. I guess that it's the accumulated small things that I like.
 
Ven
11:04 AM
@sehe this isn't exactly code golf, it's a popularity contest.
 
they have cbSize member defined for a reason
 
Proxy iterators (that thing with iter_swap and iter_move customization points) also allowed me to do things that I didn't know how to do otherwise. I had to rethink some how some algorithms worked to get them right, but it seems fairly powerful.
 
user1804599
(data list [a *] (nil (list a)) (cons a (list a) (list a)))
 
I guess I kind of like sentinels too.
 
Sentinels are awesome
 
11:09 AM
Meh.
They're fine.
 
I didn't implement them in cpp-sort though, because already too much SFINAE to handle without concepts.
 
Yeah, I also find that they're more trouble than they're worth.
 
I've been doing development driven testing recently
 
I didn't really read the articles about views or actions, nor about the range facade though, so I don't know what they're worth.
 
It's the practice of having to wait for the coders to finish their job to look at their implementation and test that is works exactly like that forever
Because our design is a mess
 
user1804599
11:12 AM
> openFile : (f : String) -> (m : Mode) -> IO (Either FileError File)
 
user1804599
Idris. Come on. Such an advanced type system, and you fail to encode the mode in the type of file handles.
 
user1804599
At least kudos for IO (Either _ _) instead of exceptions
 
Sentinels don't seem to enable new scenarios; only enable a few optimisations for a few scenarios.
 
Why does the type have f and m?
Does it allow currying on labelled arguments?
 
user1804599
You can omit them.
 
user1804599
11:14 AM
But in general, you can name types and then later use those as values in other types.
 
Sentinels enable counted iterators which allow not to have a ton of *_n algorithms. I think that generally don't need them, but when you do you're glad to have them.
 
Oh, I see
 
Ven
@Shoe it's not labelled arguments
it's dependent types
 
which is just an extension of id : (a : Type) -> a -> a, or with the "Type" param implicit, you can do id : {a : Type} -> a -> a
 
Down at the bottom of all problems is the fixation with iterators, IYAM.
3
 
user1804599
11:16 AM
divResult : Nat -> Type
divResult 0 = Void
divResult _ = Nat

div : Nat -> (n : Nat) -> divResult n -- note how n is used in another type
 
Ven
getTypeFor : String -> Type
getTypeFor "str" = String
getTypeFor _ = Bool

doStuff : (s : String) -> getTypeFor s
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes apparently <algorithm> & Co. are worth catering to
 
@Morwenn Can't most, if not all _n algorithms be simply replaced with | take(n)?
 
Why can't one just port LINQ
 
@Ven I was referring to the site
 
Ven
11:17 AM
@sehe you don't see the purpose of code-golfing?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't know, I didn't use the Range v3 library itself. I only borrowed some parts of it. But yeah, probably.
 
A while back someone mentioned to me a design where iterators only existed down at the very bottom and at the very top to support existing code. Don't remember where.
 
@milleniumbug let's hope :)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The fixation coming from a legacy std library that is (defendably) very popular
@Ven basically.
I mean, I can see how people /use/ it to sharpen the saw, but I prefer "real" code for it
 
@sehe Yeah. Given that, I understand the people who think ranges are pointless and iterators are just fine.
 
Ven
11:21 AM
it's a... problem-solving thingie. I guess? :P
 
Because, well, I don't think you can get far from that if you stay fixated on iterators.
 
user1804599
eeeehhhh
 
Well, I find iterators handy from time to time, like whenever I need a "middle" iterator somewhere, or simply a blind output iterator, but when it comes to passing full collections (which is what is needed most of the time), I very much prefer ranges.
 
Ven
Well, it's programming with constraints. And it forces you to try a lot of different algorithms/program structures to get to one that's expressive in the least amount of code
 
Or alternatively: I like implementing algorithms with iterators, but I like calling them with ranges.
 
11:24 AM
@Ven an optimization problem!
 
@LucDanton or shall we say... a pessimization problem?
 
@Ven Puzzling is also not for me. I don't consider that problem solving either. It just doesn't attract me. OTOH I like constraints on creative processes. Just not artificial ones. Or bad ones.
@R.MartinhoFernandes People dread change. Even if the status quo is meh.
 
Ven
@sehe it's all fine. Maybe they don't understand why you'd waste time solving other people's problems on SO :)
It's just small brain teasers
 
Don't tease me. I wanna know what's real.
There's bound to be a link with me not digging games (knowing how much damage points weapon such-and-such inflicts at distance so-and-so with health at this level and the attack stance with these 3 multiplayer game mode options enabled)
 
@ElimGarak Finally installed my 970, btw.
 
11:33 AM
I like chess - it's its own kind of "real"; it's complex enough to lead to narrative and intuitive thinking (contrast with checkers...) but I stop short of analyzing end-games and optimizing mate-procedures etc.
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's a weird late reply :)
 
@sehe there’s more than one way to enjoy games (and, presumably, likewise for code-golfing)
 
> Details der Lastschrift:

Betrag der Lastschrift: NaN €
Konto:
I think something went terribly wrong.
 
Ven
@sehe okay, that's fair. as usual, "YMMV"
 
:)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes was that your overrent
 
user1804599
11:36 AM
Ah, I think I got some nice syntax
 
@BartekBanachewicz Nah, got that back. Now I was trying to renew my server.
 
@sehe the gauntlet is now rust-ridden
 
Hm I think the sound there was really in the pickups
 
@ScarletAmaranth But poetry emerges from time, the silent witness
 
Ven
11:37 AM
@Zoidberg terrible
 
"But... these functions are not really part of any class" said the student, "they are simple functions that don't belong anywhere"; "That's not how OOP works!" said the professor, "you have to put them in a class!". Days pass by and the student submits the work for revision. "What is this? Why are these functions static? That's not how OOP works. You should put them as public member functions!";
"But professor, there are no attributes whatsoever, why would I create a constructor for a class that has no way of yielding anything else other than a bag of functions?" asked the student... "That's not how OOP works" replied the professor.
 
user1804599
@Ven why?
 
@BartekBanachewicz barrister (at least they seemed to be leading for violins :))
 
Ven
@Zoidberg because cons isn't on his own line
 
user1804599
It is.
 
Ven
11:39 AM
s/line/expr/
 
user1804599
cons is on line 17. nil on line 16.
 
user406009
@Shoe I had a professor like that.
 
Ven
and because you have to "extract" the expression (the fn) by poping the list of expressions
 
user1804599
The body of the let is always a single expression.
 
user406009
I will never forget an entire project that could have been mostly replaced by simply passing a std::function<void()> around.
 
11:39 AM
@Shoe You're writing koans?
 
@Lalaland programming lore is that professor
 
@sehe Those are the ones in the blue guitar in the video, appeared first on spotify:album:2DNammoYBKGip2bfDK1n0C
 
user1804599
Therefore it's not ambiguous to have as many binding groups as you want.
 
user1804599
I want to avoid an explosion of nested let expressions. This isn't Node.js.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes TIL
 
Ven
11:40 AM
I never said it was ambiguous.
 
THERE ARE TOO MANY CHOICES OKAY
 
@Lalaland Sometimes I think that reading about functional programming and the YAGNI principle has worsen my uni experience by a lot.
 
user406009
@Shoe Yep.
 
Ven
@Zoidberg with macros, you could just rewrite letall to nested lets :P
 
user1804599
I'm gonna do it this way. I like it. :)
 
11:41 AM
@Shoe Yes I think actual knowledge and experience did the same for me.
 
user406009
@Shoe I just want to graduate at this point.
 
user406009
And get out of there.
 
Me too
 
user406009
Oh well, it's the summer now, so I can stop thinking about it.
 
Are you doing the master?
 
Ven
11:42 AM
@Zoidberg L7, could you say x t? because as is stands, your let is useless there
 
I have thesis defense in 18 days :-\
 
user406009
@Shoe ?
 
Master's degree I mean
 
user406009
Nah, bachelors.
 
Ven
@Zoidberg why does GADT definition uses the same syntax as variables? :\
 
user406009
11:43 AM
I'll probably spend the extra year and do the masters though.
 
@Lalaland just one year? wat?
 
user1804599
oh, fuck
 
Ugh, got a reply from a job application telling me nothing other than that I will be contacted by the technical team. I am already losing interest.
 
user1804599
thanks
 
We have two years
 
Ven
11:44 AM
there are two "master" levels
M1 and M2
 
here it depends
 
yeah it's strange, you can't (normally) get master's in just 1 year
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
It knows it belongs to list by the return type; (list a).
 
Ven
the GADT defintion doesn't make sense. it doesn't stand out from the rest.
 
11:45 AM
@ScarletAmaranth isn't it 3+1 in the UK
 
user406009
@ScarletAmaranth For the professional masters, not the research masters.
 
Hi guys. I'd like to ask a question. I'm studying the pimpl pattern. What's its benefit compared with using just cpp/hpp? I move some implementation code from hpp to cpp and also see improvement in build time. Is there any big difference?
 
user406009
@ddmbr Shorter compile times.
 
@BartekBanachewicz from what I understand, Europe has unified credit system where you need 120credits extra to bachelor's to get masters
 
I think I want to work, but I have this feeling a master's degree will be extremely useful
 
11:46 AM
eh fuck if I care
really please let's not talk about uni
 
user406009
@ddmbr Also, you use pimpl combined with cpp/hpp.
 
because I'll realize I actually have to go back there
 
user406009
Pimpl simply allows you to move more code out of the hpp.
 
and it's nothing but sadness and disappointment at this point
 
@BartekBanachewicz You do?
 
11:47 AM
fuck you shoe
 
user406009
@Shoe I know I just want to work at this point.
 
user406009
But "future".
 
@Lalaland I see. Let me think ...
 
@Lalaland Do you think that in the future a master's degree is better than experience?
Honest question, I'm asking myself the same thing
 
user406009
11:48 AM
@Shoe Who knows?
 
user1804599
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz You have to remember we are talking about how employers see it.
 
@ScarletAmaranth Yeah, since 2006.
 
user406009
Evaluating experience takes effort. Looking for a masters degree as a filter is a simple substring filter.
 
I've read a couple of blog posts about recruiters valuing a degree less and less
 
11:49 AM
@Shoe That's mostly because they trawl Stack Overflow and GitHub and spam everyone.
:30423748 Valuing.
"to valuate" is to gain value.
 
I see, thanks
 
Xeo
twas "evaluate", tho
 
@Xeo Context for that was removed.
 
user406009
@Shoe I think it will also depend on how the economy goes.
 
Xeo
ah
 
11:50 AM
 
@Lalaland right
 
user406009
If there are way too many applicants for positions, I think companies will start using cheap filters.
 
It's definitely possible
Fuck, I'll have to get a master's degree I think
 
user406009
And I am rather pessimistic about the future of Computer Science.
 
user406009
Everyone and their sister is going into it.
 
user406009
11:51 AM
At every level of education.
 
ye
 
user406009
High school, college, post college, etc etc.
 
.. that's MSVC 2010, 1.6 GB is compressed into 175MB
 
@Lalaland It's another bubble.
 
the thing is, most of those people exhibit little to no actual interest in the field
 
11:52 AM
Hipster startup culture.
 
@ScarletAmaranth and no actual talent or proficiency either
 
user406009
@ScarletAmaranth Does it matter though? They are still competing with you at the job market.
 
nah, not really
 
no, they are not really - they write crap Android apps
 
I don't feel threatened by a bunch of MSc wielding idiots from my uni
@ScarletAmaranth yeah
 
user406009
11:53 AM
@ScarletAmaranth Have fun with that thought. I personally know a couple of people who switched to computer science from physics and philosophy for the money.
 
user406009
They are quite competent.
 
seriously all it takes is one competent tech interview to weed out all of those idiots
 
hell, most of my MSc wielding school mates can't really even write code; not to mention they have basically non-existant theoretical background
 
or maybe not "idiots" but people with misaligned expectations
 
I think you're downplaying the power of mediocrity.
 
11:54 AM
you just don't wing being a programming nerd since your 16s
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not personally aiming for the mediocre job market
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz That doesn't match my experience interacting with people who just switched into computer science for the money.
 
user406009
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, the "startup" bubble over here in SF is already deflating.
 
user406009
There are less and less outsized valuations.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Why the raw->ref = &p, tho.
 
user406009
Anyways, we will see what happens.
 
Ven
11:58 AM
@Zoidberg good :)
 
in Slovakia the startup hype is basically just ramping up - even my uni has kinda fallen for it, swapping classes like type theory for "creating apps for the android platform" nonsense
 
user406009
I for one, am not going to be making any large, risky, home purchases on debt.
 
Ven
@Lalaland joke's on you, I'm not
hey, maybe that's why I suck so much at programming.
 
user1804599
:3
 
@Xeo at own risk
 

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