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user3790646
14:00
is this a problem when trying to set the window procedure for the window class?
no idea. Debug.
or just use my code, it's MIT licensed
You're probably returning 0 from your window procedure on WM_NCCREATE you butt
if you want it for OpenGL it's ready made and quite usable
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz where is it?
or just use SDL
3 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
14:01
Default it after setting the pointer
@Ell I'd say my lib is a tad easier to use in C++ than SDL
Ell
Ell
> it's not meant for anything serious
sdl can at least be used for "something serious"
@CatPlusPlus stop knowing everything ffs
I know how to search
user3790646
Oh lol @CatPlusPlus incredible! Your eyes are as sharp as a diamond!
Ell
Ell
14:02
lol
@Ell if you need to look for it you're not doing anything serious
I farted
@Ell it's also a C library with a terrible API. IMHO GLFW is way saner
user1804599
@Puppy I plonked
@BartekBanachewicz glfw's documentation is really great
Ell
Ell
14:03
@BartekBanachewicz need to look for what?
Good docu makes me instantly love a library
@Ell for a windowing library on a programming chat
@Prismatic I need to improve mine I guess :S
Ell
Ell
you gotta stop belittling peoples effort man
2
More like losedowing library am i rite
Ell
Ell
it's not nice to tell people they aren't doing anything serious
14:04
SDL is terribly written. Allegro 5 is better.
@CatPlusPlus true
user3790646
SFML > Both
I'd use GLFW if only it supported Android, iOS etc. I should really try to add support for Android on of these days
@AndreyErick except no, not really.
@Ell but that's why I've written my library! If you're so ~enterprise~ and have need for such stable and developed software, then why are you even looking at it
SFML stores non-owning references taken by non-const reference in constructors.
That's bad.
14:05
it's simple, one file, header only, for toy stuffs, learning, the like. By definition, nothing serious
I don't get what's wrong in stating that
Ell
Ell
There isn't anything wrong with stating that about your library
there is something wrong with telling someone they aren't doing anything serious
@Ell but sending it someone is?
@milleniumbug SFML is terrible at owning things
user1804599
I should really install an Ada implementation.
@Ell isn't sending it to someone basically telling them that I consider their work not serious then?
14:07
@Jefffrey Yeah, this.
90% of the time when you are managing a resource from SFML you'll get a segfault or something.
I mean for fucks sake
Ell
Ell
4 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Ell if you need to look for it you're not doing anything serious
Do you really think that?
Ell
Ell
^I'm talking about this
user1804599
14:07
Use COBOL.
@Ell which is fucking true
if you're on your first quest for a windowing library there's no freaking way you're experienced enough to do anything serious
One day we'll have this sweet cross platform / event / windowing library and it'll be plug and play and life will be so dope
so if I have an array of non pointer elements, should I destruct each element before I delete the array?
14:08
there's just 0 possibility for that
Ell
Ell
it's just discouraging
@MichaelMitchell no
@BartekBanachewicz so it is safe to straight up delete the array
@Ell What, acknowledging that your hobby work isn't exactly serious software?
user1804599
You mean you want some overpriced software that requires a huge server farm and has the design fragility of raw spaghetti? :D — adolf garlic Apr 14 '09 at 12:31
user1804599
14:08
lol
Is this for your rendering model viewer thing @Ell
Bartek does not understand basic human interaction. Nothing new. Just move on, @Ell.
wadup guis
If it is an array of pointers I should then delete each individual pointer before I delete the array, right?
Ell
Ell
@Prismatic No, this is for Andreys thing
14:09
@MichaelMitchell why are you deleting it manually in the first place?
@Rapptz you around?
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz Why do you need to acknowledge it in the first place though?
@BartekBanachewicz deleting what
@Jefffrey yeah like, fucking insulting me OTOH is perfectly fine in terms of human interaction
Ell
Ell
I'm not trying to insult anyone
14:09
Yes. Yes, it is.
holy shit, the drama in this lounge
I miss lori
@Ell because we were talking about a library for non-serious things?
Ell
Ell
I'm just saying that if I were learning something, and someone told me that my work isn't serious, I would be discouraged
at least then bartek was focused on him
14:10
so it's like, an important assesment to make?
@AlexM. is lori rip forever
what happened to lori?
no
he started his own chatroom
is your code serious? - no? - you can use my library
but I cannot split my time in two like that
14:10
he did?
@MichaelMitchell Use std::vector
there's no fucking bellitling anything
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz when did you establish that it was non-serious?
I saw liro answering stuff on SO
@Jefffrey yes search for Bar<C++> in the chatroom list
14:10
@Ell When I created it?
@milleniumbug I am asking a generalized question...
it's unlisted because it started as something like a Lori + me private room
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz Not your library, his thing
I don't know about his thing
I told him to come back but nope :<
14:11
@BartekBanachewicz No, it's just joking.
I just said that if he can use my library then his project isn't serious.
lol he'll come back eventually
he ragequits forever fairly regularly, to never come back again a few weeks later.
@AlexM. lol
Which is pretty fucking obvious and I don't get how it's insulting at all
@MichaelMitchell The generalised answer is that deleteing stuff manually is bad in general. Use std::vector
14:11
@AlexM. lol
user3790646
I miss LRiO :`(
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz okay, you're right - my bad
@milleniumbug a std::vector is not possible in my use case
@Jefffrey can we go there and ask lori to come back?
I miss Hitler
Ell
Ell
14:12
I thought you were calling his work not serious
@MichaelMitchell why not
@MichaelMitchell inb4 uni assignment
user3790646
hey Cicada
@AlexM. I'm not allowed to speak there "yet"
WRITE ONE
14:12
Hey Andrew
@Jefffrey right I can fix that
I am making a queue implementation on top of an array
DON'T LET BAD CODE NEAR YOUR CODEBASE
std::vector is an array.
@Jefffrey done
14:12
Oh, you are a owner, lol
@Ell of course not. If he said "no, I can't use your library, I need this project to actually be stable", I wouldn't say a word.
dear god I have offended The Flagger again
user3790646
flagger?
consider introducing some xanax up your anal orifice
14:13
lol
@MichaelMitchell there is already a queue adaptor in the standard library
invalidated because of "consider"
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I apologise :)
Exclusive LORI club
@Ell eh is fine. I am overreacting because of all of the people accusing me of non-social behaviour today,.
How ironic.
@Jefffrey I think lori removed you lol
lol indeed
14:14
Bartek overreacting?!
snackchat drama
Oh god what did I miss
@AlexM. Tbf I've caused him to be banned last time
@Jefffrey I mean, wow, that's rude.
I forgot about that
user1804599
14:15
bkkk
user1804599
guess the vowels
in Bar<C++>, 42 secs ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
because half the point of this room is to get away from jofffrey?
lol
user1804599
l
@Jefffrey you're so toxic
14:16
Did 'the real C++ room' die
lol @ the room tags:
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, I'm sexy like that
I should make an alt
Will the real C++ room please stand up
lol, LRiO got bashed, he's drinking his troubles away in bar.
14:16
this guy is not me.. and he scares me..
How pathetic.
Also:
> #define __ENABEL_EPSPERAMENTLE_TAPDOLE_ORATORS
@Jefffrey what are you up to these days. Aside from insulting me.
What. Just what.
#define true false
14:17
@sehe it's a special kind of verbibol
> orators
@BartekBanachewicz php & mysql
@Jefffrey would explain things. uni?
@buttifulbuttefly lol
14:18
I'm so frustrated I can barely wake up without crying
@Jefffrey frustratred about what
1 min ago, by Jefffrey
@BartekBanachewicz php & mysql
c̼͙̠̭̫̰͈͍̮͢͡ţ̢̛̠͇̬̖̟̺͈̲̻̣̲͙͈̼͍̘̱ͅl̶͘‌​̷̨̲͙͖̻̲̗̦͚͙̮͠y̭̖̰͚̞̣̗̳̠͕̻̼͡ͅ!̛͖̮͔͍̰͉͢ ̭̙̖͔̩̗̠͕̦̬͓͞͝ͅO҉҉̣̜̺̪̳͕̖͔̠͙͎͕̙̦ͅn̩͓͖̝̟̭͙͙͓͚̼͖͖͜͞ȩ̧̬̱̦̠̙̥͇͔̪́ ҉̸̗̦͇̰̪̰̭̘̹͘͢i̴͞͏̩̤̹̗̖̰͎̖̲̲̘͓̗̯͚̞͖̥̻͝s͞҉̲͈̙̹̤̫͇ ͚̭͎͉̠̺͉̮̞̻̣̰̺̖͖̀́͢͞e̷̪̭̯̼͓͎̹̠͖̲͔̪͈̦͈̱͍̭̩͠ņ͞҉̮̳͓͙͈̼͉̬͕͈̺͈̭̩̪o͇̗̱̠̱̠̯̕͢u̸̳̦̩̳̫̖̜ͅ‌​‌​ǵ̢̲̣͎̮̮̼̫̥̠͙̱̝̘͕͎̳̜̲̖h̸̛̩͚̮̤̖̹͙.̶̨̳̖̠̗̼̩͕͇͉͓̟̦͜͞ͅ
1 min ago, by Jefffrey
@BartekBanachewicz php & mysql
I just discovered I have to read some js code
: (
14:19
@AndyProwl No Seriously. Are they out of their minds?
one hour more today
Ell
Ell
you guys
stopping screwing the chat up
maybe I could do some haskell for a change today
the ever-fucking-big things to do list is still there :S
@Jefffrey I dunno whether to merge the lens branch
tadpole operators are pretty kawaii
@BartekBanachewicz If it makes the code more readable do it
@sehe I assume the ` __ENABEL_EPSPERAMENTLE_TAPDOLE_ORATORS` thing is a joke. The rest looks like a non-joke but is a joke
@AndyProwl They're officially nuts.
oh why no markdown this time
this thing hates me
ITT sehe struggling with absurd humor
user1804599
14:22
is it the __
user1804599
Old, uninteresting, obscure and bad.
didnt the msvc guys add some weird operators for managed c++ too
Let's make a __TEST
no it's not
@BartekBanachewicz Looks convincing, but you don't have to convince me. You have my blessing.
14:23
As long as you have top level type annotations
I won't let you down
Bartek Astley
` __ENABEL_EPSPERAMENTLE_TAPDOLE_ORATORS`
@buttifulbuttefly oh god. It's so much simpler than I thought :)
> Call me paranoid, but this looks like an April Fools post that would have been delayed for some reason.
14:23
:D
@Prismatic yes, that they did do
> So the Time Machine has finally been built - amazingly this also works in Visual C++ 6. From 1998!
__MARKDOWN_FAIL
shite
what makes it fail
oh
wait I got it: it's the space
user1804599
Goatse operator best operator.
14:25
@sehe I’m disappointed, too. It has nothing to do with Esperanto!
Epsperanto!
user1804599
Fascinating.
Sigh. User asks a question without code. I ask him to post his code. He links to his fucking GH repo. I give up.
a classic
Let's play agar.io
14:30
Guys any real justification for using shared_ptr? Shared ownership seems counter-intuitive to me.
I cannot
@buttifulbuttefly Are you going to offer a pull request?
"Pull request by Cicada - consider throwing yourself off a bridge"
@Veritas I used it once, and that was because support for unique_ptr was buggy in that one compiler I used. (hehe, guess which one?)
I like this N-bit song
where N is the actual number
14:32
@Veritas you're wrong
@Veritas e.g. when someone has to delete that object, but you don't know who is destroyed first
@Puppy wut
@MarcoA. is that a sensible design though?
it depends. Might be
@Veritas that is too broad to be discussed without a specific scenario. I agree with Andy.
oh ffs, libre office calc is failing so hard. for some reason it is making random characters in italics
Ell
Ell
14:36
you got latest version?
@Veritas I use it for all the things
Ell
Ell
recent versions are very good imho
try google drive or w/e it's called
@Veritas sometimes apps have more than one data flow. Say, you have components A and B with shared dependency S. A is instantiated and gets S up. Then B is instantiated. Then A goes away. If both A and B can be instantiated freely, neither of them has "more" ownership over S.
I do docs there
14:37
If I can, I would also avoid doing something like "int i = random(); delete objects[i];"
@Ell probably not, some managed shite at work. why on earth would they want to keep shit uptodate?
this can be mitigated by putting up a "manager" M that resides to the side and owns S, or a Component C that owns A, B and S.
@BartekBanachewicz wouldn't it make sense to have a resource manager own the dependency?
@Veritas What if it's just one dependency component (and not, say, an image)? Does it make sense to create a manager just for that?
@Veritas Can be.
14:40
as for the component owning both, you'd need a component for every shared dep
combinatorial explosion
oh gawd, managers
I have a manager at work and that's enough for me
> Rim is an aspiring Vim-like text editor written in Rust.
lol
user1804599
lol
user1804599
That's like Servo.
user1804599
An epic failure.
14:41
@Veritas but how does it share that resource with others?
@thecoshman smart handles are one example
I always wanted to implement smart handles for my games
and actually never did that
Ell
Ell
a manager doesn't do anything anyway
smart handles?
Ell
Ell
@buttifulbuttefly such poor naming choice
@buttifulbuttefly VR <- was that really so hard to come up with a better name?
14:42
@Puppy well imagine a double-indirection ref that holds to a proxy, where access to that proxy can trigger a resource load if it has been unloaded
@BartekBanachewicz Simply don't unload the resource?
Ell
Ell
double indirection o.O
@Puppy very good job needing a huge amount of RAM!
@Ell you can think about it as a closure with resource pointer and resource manager instance
Ell
Ell
idk what a resource manager is
14:43
@Puppy sometimes you need to free up the space for something else
@Ell it's a class that provides the resources when you ask for them
you give it the resource ID, and get an actual thing back
@thecoshman That's what the virtual memory system is for. Let the OS handle moving shit back and forth from RAM.
my idea was to give not just a pointer to the resource back, but also a packed way to ask the said manager to load the thing if it freed it
@Puppy that doesn't work in the slightest
Esp. on mobile platforms.
user1804599
Boost.Flyweight
if the OS starts to swap you're pretty much dead anyway
well I must admit that I've never actually attempted this, but I don't see how it's not just re-implementing what virtual memory does already with the OS paging shit out (on desktop)
user3010322
14:46
@BartekBanachewicz "smart handles" ?
@Puppy apparently there must be some additional magic to that
@Puppy Vram is terrible.
isn't the whole point of that system to page out unused memory and then page it back in on demand?
@ThePhD why don't you read my posts that followed that explained the idea
@Puppy yes, but the OS doesn't know what you know about your resources and needs
@Puppy it's about having your own code know specifically what data can be offloaded opposed the OSes fairly blind "fuck it, you can all go to disk"
14:46
also, it would attempt to copy the resources
because it doesn't know you already have a copy on the disk
@BartekBanachewicz Exactly what would happen when you try to load them from disk into RAM anyway
user3010322
Oh.
oh you mean a copy on disk?
user3010322
That doesn't sound too hard to create.
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz so a std::unordered_map<id, resource>?
14:47
well, that's pretty trivial really
user3010322
I have something like that in Furrovine.
@ThePhD Dunno if it makes sense though
so I guess the question for me (on desktop) then is whether you can actually put the custom knowledge to any practical benefit
@Ell It depends. It might utilize such a map in a trivial scenario, yes. Might be more complicated.
it seems to me that if you're running on a machine with a shitload of RAM it might be better not to page out anyway
Ell
Ell
14:48
why not call it a resource cache then?
manager means nothing
user3010322
The Loader class I have takes a function that loads a resource and keeps that function stored inside of itself. It invokes the function to load the object. It also has a number keep-alive and reload triggers.
@BartekBanachewicz It's not a general purpose solution.
@Ell because it's not just a cache
@MrJackMcShane I agree. If I wanted to change someone into an #atheist I'd tell them to read the Bible. @RichardDawkins
dat burn
user3010322
One of the examples that I showed @melak47 a long time ago was an on-demand reloading texture.
14:48
@ThePhD something like that eh
user1804599
Introduce a ResourceLoader concept, make a FileResourceLoader class and a CachingResourceLoader decorator class.
Ell
Ell
well call it something better than manager :P
user1804599
decorator pattern best pattern
@Puppy obviously any half smart solution would factor in how much ram is available.
@Ell just because you are so full of FUD against the "manager" word?
Ell
Ell
14:49
because manager doesn't mean anything
user3010322
If any of the reload triggers hit (like a file being saved over on the OS), then it re-calls the loading function.
@Ell you just keep repeating things you've read on the internet
@thecoshman Right, except you're still re-implementing all of those smarts for no apparent benefit.
@Ell it manages the lifetime of something
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz what does manager mean then?
define manager for me
14:49
@sehe eyeroll
user3790646
hey I'm a customer manager software and I find this offensive
@Ell Something that manages things.
I don't see what you can do with your custom logic that the OS cannot do better
user3010322
The thing I want to do now though is add a ResourceTrigger concept and allow you to attach a bunch of arbitrary resource trigger concepts to individual resources.
@BartekBanachewicz That... is pretty meaningless, since "manage" could mean practically anything in this case.
14:50
@Puppy and yet still, there are such things. Have you ever considered that your knowledge might be limited?
user3790646
that controls, takes care of something, that's what manager means to me.
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz what does "manage" mean?
@caps it's funnier in context
@Puppy not really, you just need to consider how much of these 'X' guys you want to keep loaded, and (what the OS can't do) have some way of working out which guys to ofload
@Ell What is "managed code"?
user3010322
14:50
So that one can reload on a file, another can reload on some input, or whatever else the ResourceTrigger lets you do.
@BartekBanachewicz This is an opportunity for you to speak such a thing. That is how debates usually go.
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I usually think of it as code run in a virtual machine
but I'm not sure of the actual definition
@thecoshman The ones you're not using, of course
@Ell So you took the word "managed", which in a particular context has a well-defined meaning. Apply this to "Resource Manager".
@Puppy crude, but it can work. How you work out which ones you are not using is rather domain specific.
14:51
FTR I'm not saying the name is great, but IMHO it's the last thing to argue here.
Happy #TowelDay from Expedition 42, half in #space, half back on Earth… we’re froods who know where their towel is! http://t.co/oLvmn8rUXE
Ell
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I think "managed code" is a bad use of the word "manage" too :P
The idea is that you are able to know which ones you don't need and can happily offload. If you are having to offload so you can get more into RAM, you are fooked.
@thecoshman Sure, but it's also easy for the OS to know which ones it can offload.
Ell
Ell
at least "managed code" is defined by someone
14:52
@Puppy for example, you might now that in about 30 seconds you might need to create a lot of objects, so you can start making space for the new ones.
Ell
Ell
I got it wrong btw
if you want to preload or something later you can just touch all the pages (at crudest)
Ell
Ell
> Managed code is a term coined by Microsoft to identify computer program source code that requires and will execute only under the management of a Common Language Runtime virtual machine, typically the .NET Framework, or Mono.
I hate agar.io
2
Ell
Ell
lol me too
so frustrating
14:53
@Puppy not as well as you. It might just see 1000 chunks of world data, and decide to of load one the player is walking towards. Your program code can work out that these 100 are far away from the player and getting further away, so least likely to be needed again soon.
Ell
Ell
I must play
@Puppy I suppose you should propose a concrete implementation that can compete with existing pooling memory managers used i.e. in games.
@BartekBanachewicz If oyu have a bunch of unused textures, then you probably already have space since they've been paged out.
@BartekBanachewicz I think that's getting a bit smarter, but is along the same idea
@Puppy you're making a lot of assumptions.
14:54
well
hint, not all of them are right.
I'm not going to argue that if you have a particular case on a particular OS, that you will never find a case where the OS does not get it right.
Xeo
Xeo
All right, story time.
I grant you for most applications, it's not a thing you should be worrying about.
help my code is ugly
shared_ptr<RangeAllocator<shared_ptr<gl::VertexBuffer>>> list_vxbuff_allocator;
14:54
I'm merely saying that in general, this is a task the OS is supposed to handle for you.
@sehe I read the context. It's clever, but it still makes me roll my eyes. (To be fair, the people he's replying to also deserve eyerolls--that kind of proselytization is obnoxious)
@Prismatic aliases
@Puppy And I'm saying that in general it's failing.
@Prismatic typedef
at least when you really start hitting the memory limits
user1804599
14:55
Why does Ideone.com show me ads?
and not just work with 30MB or even 300MB ram apps
im sick of typing out using xxxx = yyyyy; every time god damn
user1804599
I have AdBlock installed.
First World Lounge Problem: finding funny tweets but not being able to share them on the Lounge because they were retweeted by Loungers.
@caps I was thinking that the guy he responded to was also trying to troll. I mean, it's hard to tell really :|
14:55
@Prismatic auto motherfucker
@rightfold companies pay AdBlock to whitelist certain stuff
@caps And yes, eyeroll-levels are the reason I don't retweet this.
user1804599
@Prismatic No, that's AdBlock Plus.
I AM LEAVING IN 20 MINUTES
I thought uBlock was the one that didn't whitelist sponsored stuff
14:56
omg omg omg
@Puppy OSes are not designed specifically for running games. The allocate RAM for general purpose shit. VRAM handles human time swaps between applications. VRAM does not work well within a single application, especially when you are tying to maintain speed
Social media are bad for this. Let people with marginal beliefs be marginal
@BartekBanachewicz WHAT FOR
@sehe Maybe so. There really are people who think that throwing bibles (usually not literally) at un-believers will convert them somehow.
@sehe leaving work, that is
I made 4 pull requests today
2 of them fix actual problems with our engine
NO F WAY. You do pull requests at work
14:57
and yet still I feel so empty
@sehe is it so surprising?
Lead devs fear that we will break stuff.
What kind of engine is it?
@thecoshman Sure, but a few large textures which would have fairly obvious usage patterns seems like use case #1
a game engine.
Xeo
Xeo
I managed to rip out and break my router's DSL cable. The connector "exploded", so I put it back together to the best of my abilities. Didn't work.
Get out my old WiFi stick, try installing drivers - doesn't work, prolly some Win8 incompatibility. Try a few other (official) driver versions, they do weird things upon uninstall like killing all running apps. Wtf.
Notice that the WiFi stick is suddenly detected properly, and I can see all WiFi networks in range. Can't connect to my friend's, though.
@BartekBanachewicz Bad idea. Everyone knows you should only fix problems that don't actually exist.
14:57
c++/opengl?
@Xeo lol
@Prismatic yep
@Prismatic c++/java
can you talk about its stack at all? what frameworks if any etc
ah
@milleniumbug c++/html
Xeo
Xeo
14:58
This is so strange
And makes so much not-sense, it's hilarious.
@Prismatic mostly monetization contribs
@Xeo You de-referenced that NULL pointer last week.
@Xeo Your router is possessed.
pugixml, SDL, platform-specific apis
@Xeo oh I'll be on glass fiber soon (as in "thiw weekish"). I hope that goes "well"
14:59
@Xeo is DSL just phone cable? They are dirt cheap
user1804599
> A field is a ring in which non-zero elements form an abelian group under multiplication.
user1804599
TIL
Xeo
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz They are. But it's a national holiday.
user3790646
@sehe I'm on already. Noticed speed fluctuations.
user3790646
wait that meme is nuts
also the fiber is reaaaaaallllly thin
how have people not seen this
you have to be careful and plan for the router accordingly
@AndreyErick philosoraptor

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