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8:00 PM
... Who cares? :|
(Also, what does it have to do with material design?)
 
ok, here's a better example of "flat buttons"
 
If they want to make their icons so that it's consistent with the design they follow and preach, good for them...
 
@MadaraUchiha It's to do with the wave of "flatness" that comes with them
I don't understand why "responsive" has to be a synonym for "flat"
Why "paper", or your base, needs to have nothing other than shadow to distinguish it
That's with material design; the Mac guideline seems to be weird translucency
 
@Zirak I belive the idea being that they want it to behave similar to how objects in the real world behave.
 
Objects in the real world have more than shadow to distinguish them
 
8:04 PM
When you have a few sheets of paper on various elevations, you really only have shadow (and the size of the item) as an indication.
 
Besides, these are not objects in the real world
We express so much more
 
@Zirak Obviously.
 
Like smell
I'm waiting for the UX/UI design guideline which incorporates smell
 
@Zirak I'm not saying it's the perfect design, and I'm not even saying it's an excellent one
But I'm not a designer, I don't have a brilliant alternative to offer.
 
I'm not a designer too, and it aches to see designers suffer and atrophy
Have you seen chat interfaces lately, for example?
What distinguishes Hangouts from Facebook Messenger from iMessage?
 
8:07 PM
@Zirak like, miaou?
 
@FlorianMargaine Miaou is a great counter-example
 
@MadaraUchiha yup, also at a concert so ttyl
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum robbie?
 
@Zirak I actually use Hangouts?
 
8:08 PM
oh oh I know, the Instagram icon
Before:
After:
The latter is "flat" and "modern" and devoid of soul
I've seen thousands of this icon, there's nothing which sets it apart, nothing which sticks. But it's "trendy"
 
crl
pixelized version are even more trendy
 
Apple did it
 
Good afternoon/evening folks
 
@Phrancis Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
@Zirak Well, that is silly since their icon now looks a lot like the camera's
Icons on a mobile app are meant to be things that help the user recognize you immediately, even without text.
 
8:13 PM
@Zirak To me it just looks like a more simplified Instagram icon, which is still perfectly recognizable
 
@OliverSalzburg For someone like me, who isn't a part in many social networks, that icon is compeltely indistinguishable from the camera icon.
 
I would even argue that, due to the simplicity, it will be more recognizable at different resolutions
 
@OliverSalzburg Without cheating, can you tell me if it was made by the same company who made the following icon:
@OliverSalzburg Absolute bs
You'll recognise the former instagram icon anywhere because of its intricacies
 
@Zirak How is it relevant if the icon is made by the same company? And, no, I can't
 
At different resolution, the latter icon is a blurb of blue
 
8:15 PM
Had a question about "strict mode" as I'm not sure if it would benefit our project. We're developing an online card game, backend server and such is all Java, but the game logic is being converted to JS because we want it to be pretty easy for someone to fork our game and change the rules, logic, cards, etc.
 
@OliverSalzburg Can you tell which app it is?
@Phrancis Always strict mode.
Always always strict mode. No exceptions.
 
@MadaraUchiha No
 
@Phrancis Always always always strict mode. No exceptions.
 
@OliverSalzburg It's relevant because branding is. It's relevant because design matters.
It's relevant because everything looks the same
 
Gotcha. Thanks @MadaraUchiha :)
 
8:16 PM
@OliverSalzburg Why do you give your application an icon?
@Phrancis And now the reason
In strict mode, you don't have "accidental globals"
 
@MadaraUchiha To make it recognizable
 
(Also a lot more other things)
 
@Zirak Flat design's almost a competitive advantage for established co's. Try designing a camera app that has a distinct logo (but still flat)
 
The icon above is for Apple Remote.
 
But the accidental globals part is what makes it important
!!tell Phrancis mdn strict mode
 
8:17 PM
@Phrancis Strict mode
 
@SomeKittens Why pursue flatness?
Why not pursue depth?
 
OK. I've read about using let instead of var in strict mode
 
@Zirak (I'm on your side, by the way).
 
hehe, guessed from the snarky tone
 
The main advantage of flat design is I can do it. Which really isn't an argument for it.
 
8:18 PM
@CapricaSix Thanks I've been reading that as well, just wanted to ask the pros here ;)
 
@Phrancis let vs var is about block scope vs function scope.
I prefer let over var in almost all cases (let is basically a stricter version of var)
 
@Zirak Because of simplicity. The same reason traffic signs don't utilize depth
 
@Zirak I'd be shot out here if I ever seriously argued for something that solidified established players and made it difficult for new products to succeed.
 
For example:
for (let i = 0; i < 10; i++) { ... }
// i doesn't exist here
for (var i = 0, i < 10; i++) { ... }
// i = 10 here. Mistakes ahoy!
 
So does var automagically set all variables as global by default?
 
8:20 PM
No
 
OK I think I get it now :)
 
@OliverSalzburg Traffic signs are meant to be dumb
 
var a = 1;
function() {
    var a = 2;
    return a; // 2
}
a; // 1
 
Your product's face is not dumb
 
@MadaraUchiha The proper grammar is "I don't exist here"
 
8:21 PM
@Phrancis the difference is that let is block scoped.
 
@Zirak Well, I've never had a good debate with a traffic sign, I give you that ;)
 
@SomeKittens Wrong, i is the name of the variable, and it doesn't exist there.
 
!!tell MadaraUchiha define joke
 
@MadaraUchiha joke An amusing story.
 
Besides, they serve completely different purposes, the analogy doesn't hold; they're made out of different elements
 
8:21 PM
!!whoosh
 
@Zirak Company logos often also don't utilize depth, and they are perfectly recognizable
 
@CapricaSix is a bot right?
 
@Zirak @OliverSalzburg there's nothing wrong with having flat icons
@Phrancis Correct
 
@OliverSalzburg Unlike the Fanatics of Flatland, I'm not arguing depth or nothing. I'm arguing that depth isn't a sin.
 
8:22 PM
There's a problem when all icons start to look similar and just because they're flat.
 
Cool, thanks all, I'm glad I asked about strict mode early, now I only have a file or two to convert :)
(instead of an entire project)
 
@Phrancis are you doing your server-side in JS? Or is this the client-side?
 
@Phrancis Been there, done that - had to convert ~100 files to strict mode
 
@Zirak I thought depth was actually a core design principle of material design. It's just used differently, like to highlight whole UI elements. And maybe that is why they chose that icons should be flat, so that depth can be exclusively used to highlight UI elements
 
8:24 PM
Dat insult
 
@MadaraUchiha Mostly server-side, AFAIK. Client is using Java/LibGDX and such
 
lol
client is Java, server is JS. Gotta love 2015.
 
Well, it's not quite like that
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm more upset about the missed opportunity for "Islami Slimani"
 
everything is Java right now
 
8:25 PM
@OliverSalzburg We've traversed subjects, it's not strictly about material any more. But depth is used to mean something different in material.
 
@Zirak BEVEL AND EMBOSS EVERYWHERE
 
@Zirak Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this was primarily about Material Design
 
But game logic in Java is very difficult to understand, so we agreed that the Java server would use the simpler, more novice-friendly JavaScript for the game logic, then pass it back to the server then to the client
 
The previous rants was about flat design, which google's, apple's and window's started to trend.
 
I bought myself the book "Wie wärs wenn?", english: What if? by Randall Munroe, xkcd's creator
 
8:26 PM
@Phrancis I don't see how Java code is more or less novice-friendly than JavaScript is
 
Quite awesome
 
@GabrielTomitsuka OH, I just bought that book last week too!
 
*Was, oops
 
Java code will be more novice-friendly for the Java novices, and JS will be more novice-friendly for the JS novices
 
@Phrancis :D
 
8:27 PM
@MadaraUchiha We beg to differ
 
Except that Java is a terrible language
 
still better than PHP
 
BiFunction<Entity, Integer, Integer> aren't lambdas awesome
 
Nice
 
^ right
 
8:28 PM
@Phrancis Looks fairly readable to me.
Fairly straightforward
 
The idea is to convert most of this file, which contains the core game logic only, to JS and JSON
 
addCards makes me sad :(
 
@Phrancis Don't get me wrong, I'm always in favor of converting Java logic to JS
I just don't see the benefit in this particular case.
I don't see what kind of readability improvement you'd be able to do in JS in this case that would improve over what you have in Java
 
A lot of the soup will be reduced
 
See this JS proof-of-concept
And cards in JSON
 
8:31 PM
You can do better
 
You can do a lot better
var ZoneComponent = Java.type("com.cardshifter.modapi.cards.ZoneComponent");
var PlayerComponent = Java.type("com.cardshifter.modapi.base.PlayerComponent");
var DeckConfigFactory = Java.type("net.zomis.cardshifter.ecs.config.DeckConfigFactory");
var ConfigComponent = Java.type("net.zomis.cardshifter.ecs.config.ConfigComponent");
var PhrancisResources = Java.type("net.zomis.cardshifter.ecs.usage.PhrancisGame.PhrancisResources");
WAT
 
@MadaraUchiha The idea is not so much "readability", but rather that John Q. Modder would be able to make their own game logic without having to learn Java
 
WAT
 
github.com/Cardshifter/Cardshifter/blob/js/extra-resources/… would raise an error if entities[...].creature wasn't given
 
@Phrancis What if John Q. Modder already knew Java and would now need to learn JavaScript?
 
8:33 PM
Hey, we're just conceptualizing, keep that in mind lol.
 
@MadaraUchiha Then he should say thank you
Back in my day it was the other way around!
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm pretty sure learning JS if you already knew Java would not be that tricky; besides, almost everyone knows some JS
 
So you wanted to kill yourself, but realised you were already dead, and the cubicle you're in is hell
 
@Phrancis That's a dangerous assumption to make.
Java is still the #1 tag on Stack Overflow
Keep that in mind
 
Just means a lot of people have trouble with Java
2
 
8:34 PM
True, it is on Code Review as well, where I come from :)
 
@Zirak Although admittedly on a pretty small margin
I'm rather impressed, the gap used to be higher
@Phrancis Tell that to the folks in the Java room :P
 
Most questions are probably "Dear internet, why is this Java feature so badly designed?" and all the answerers hug each other afterwards and kill each other
 
@Zirak Not necessarily in that order.
 
Well, in any event, it's been a pleasure and thanks for the info!
 
@Phrancis Anyway, I think you'd benefit a lot more in writing the game logic in JS from scratch, and not trying to translate it from Java.
Java and JavaScript are, conceptually, very different.
 
8:37 PM
Good point, I'll talk to the lead dev about that
 
You express the same thing differently, and if you try to do it otherwise, you're going to have a bad time
Good luck :)
 
8:48 PM
Oh, one more question if I may. Is it generally good to just declare the entire file as "strict mode" at the top?
 
@Phrancis Not on the frontend, no
the reason being that that'll bring EVERYTHING into strict mode, including libraries which may rely on non-strict behavior
Use the functional form
 
So declare it at the beginning of your functions?
 
function blah () {
  'use strict';
^^ yup
 
function loadCardLibrary() {
    "strict mode";
    let cardLibrary = {
        entities: [
 
so blah is run in strict mode, but it doesn't infect the rest of the code
 
8:51 PM
Does single/double quote make any difference?
 
What game is this?
@Phrancis nope
I just use single because I'm lazy
 
There\'s a reason to not always use single quotes
 
I almost always use double quotes
Well, OK. Always.
 
even for JSON string literals?
 
8:54 PM
JS is more portable than Java
 
@KendallFrey We don't use "JSON" as in the cross-platform version, just the native JS notation, so yes, even for "JSON" string literals
 
No, I actually meant JSON string literals
not JS objects
 
        {
            name: "Bionic Arms",
            flavor: "These arms will give strength to even the most puny individual.",
            enchantment: true,
            scrapCost: 1,
            addAttack: 2,
            addHealth: 0
        }
^^ how we're using it now
 
no, I meant JSON
That's my main use of single-quote strings
 
OK. Then, we're not using JSON, we're using JS objects
 
 
1 hour later…
10:05 PM
@Mosho yeah
 
10:18 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum @MadaraUchiha
@royhowie love the list here: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/292114/1216976
 
10:32 PM
upvoted
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum someone serial dv'd me (again)
 
@royhowie it gets reversed don't worry
 
no, it's only 2 votes
so it's going to stay
(I mean, idc, but I have a good idea as to who did it)
because last night in chat I jokingly told someone to uninstall windows to fix their problem
and I immediately got down voted twice
in all seriousness, though, uninstalling windows and putting linux on their computer would have fixed the problem
since it was windows specific
 
pro-tip: Imaginary internet points don't matter
3
 
But then they'll have to reinstall Windows once they want to use a printer
 
10:42 PM
Who says that Windows makes it possible to use printers?
 
Ew who prints stuff, it's 2015
4
 
I printed something today
 
heathen
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Thanks for reviewing it
 
forgive me father
 
10:43 PM
@phenomnomnominal I know, I know; I have no problem being down voted, when the votes are warranted.
 
down votes and upvotes are imaginary too
Just stop giving a shit and your problem goes away :)
 
I'm over it
 
wait, so if I square a vote I get a real number? awsoooom
 
anyone here used rewire?
 
will red wire do?
 
10:49 PM
headers: {
  'X-Subliminal-Message': 'Upvote-this-answer'
}
I was subliminaled
cc @SomeKittens
 
@FlorianMargaine Glad someone caught that!
 
@SomeKittens edited the question a little bit
 
@FlorianMargaine Thanks, good edit. Makes intent a bit clearer.
 
 
1 hour later…
11:59 PM
Hmm
 

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