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9:00 PM
it's too limited to typical business scenarios, I think
 
What do you need that's so special
 
@CatPlusPlus I want a planet.
 
@BartekBanachewicz define typical business scenarios?
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix dunno, things that handle stuff
 
It's just stupid anyway. The sodding hotels etc. that exist in the popular destinations are full anyway, so any more vacationers during the school holidays means more waste of land etc. on more hotels that are open for smaller periods.
 
9:01 PM
it's much more clear now
 
@JohanLarsson Much of that was based on the idea that even if an alternative was available, it couldn't interoperate with existing infrastructure, so to switch to, say, Linux, a company couldn't do any sort of gradual change-over. They had to basically destroy their existing infrastructure and start over from day one to switch to Linux--which made the switch effectively impossible in most cases.
 
Charge kids more on the account of being annoying tia
 
Well I need a huge-ass array.
and the ability to view parts of it
and send them efficiently to people
 
So what's the problem?
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz I need a huge ass array.
 
9:02 PM
Yes, but why can I still call methods on a moved unique_ptr?
 
2
A: boost.log breaking when Xcode precompiled header used

bdashYou likely need to #define __ASSERT_MACROS_DEFINE_VERSIONS_WITHOUT_UNDERSCORES 0 prior to including Carbon/Carbon.h in your prefix header. See https://svn.boost.org/trac/boost/ticket/6219 for more information.

Magic answers also happen
 
@CatPlusPlus most of the data is 1-D in those
 
user1804599
ass[10000000000000000]
 
@Purrformance UB
 
Ell
I need an array of huge asses
 
9:02 PM
you define colums and insert rows
I want a 2D array of objects.
 
@BartekBanachewicz In those what
 
@CatPlusPlus So the fucker doesn't even actually make his state invalid?
 
@CatPlusPlus generic no-backend solutions like Deployd
 
@Purrformance It does, that's still UB
 
@JerryCoffin their definition is probably better than mine, my feeling is there was a massive number of people discussion it for a long time :D
 
9:04 PM
@rightfold Have a Hugh Jass Array (of jokes).
 
@CatPlusPlus Pay attention maybe? The government isn't involved there. At all. In any part.
 
@sehe It's a petition to the government
@Purrformance If -> was null-checking you'd get spergs frothing about precious performance
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh. Hum. Why :) And I so didn't think that made any sense that I completely assumed it was to "the travel industry"
 
@CatPlusPlus I mean it's still pointing to the previously-owned object unless I'm doing something wrong
 
@Purrformance No, it's null
 
9:05 PM
@JohanLarsson The official definition itself is part of anti-trust law. Been around roughly as long the EU has existed (and is mostly based on laws from the member countries going back a century or more).
 
@CatPlusPlus Huh. Really?! Ah. Right. They want caps. Well. Caps might help. Since the government does regulate the holidays. And hence forth help create the disbalance
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh. Right. Love you <3
Sometimes I'm stupid
 
@sehe But it also means higher demand and higher costs
 
Sometimes
 
9:07 PM
Heading home. Later!
 
@CatPlusPlus "it" (vague) and "also" (no contradiction at all)
 
It = holidays
That petition just smells of entitlement
@BartekBanachewicz I still have no idea what's the problem, post some code maybe
 
@CatPlusPlus People think things are unfair if they have no choice. And that's the case here. And if disbalance is created by artificial central holiday regulations, then perhaps the system should also do something to prevent abuse.
 
Fix holiday regulations instead of fixing the prices vOv
 
9:10 PM
It gets really ugly when you have corporations driving regulations which is very common I think.
 
It's called "lobbying"
Copyright industry just loves it
 
still ugly
@CatPlusPlus many, most? big corporations probably love/depend on it
 
Everything's about money
 
There is no hope.
 
But there is money.
 
9:13 PM
I probably used corporation where some other word should be used
 
Italics
 
@CatPlusPlus Not so easy. I kind of agree, in modern times. But historically, central holiday schemes make a bit of sense. At some point, despite all the praise of liberalism/libertarianism etc. we shouldn't forget that we are in a society. And society benefits by providing some things centrally. Such as. Education. If you leave it up to individuals...
 
Oh I know it's not easy
 
@CatPlusPlus there's no code. I am thinking about the solutions I can use in this project.
So far I like this
 
9:14 PM
@CatPlusPlus Now. Back to that father/mother. And I'll await your answer.
 
But throwing more wrong at the problem doesn't really solve it
 
@CatPlusPlus I thought that's how they work at Microsoft
 
@JohanLarsson It tends to be used the most by old companies in relatively stagnant industries. Young companies in growing industries are much more likely to view it as a waste of money because they're making money in the current environment.
 
@CatPlusPlus ... Again that's nothing to the people with the problem
 
@JerryCoffin My feeling is that medecine, food, and probably banks love it
 
9:17 PM
Well it's not my problem, so dunno why I even think about it
 
Ironically I think consumer electronics is one of the freest markets one can find today.
 
@CatPlusPlus That's not liberalism. That's egoism egocentrism. Or blinders.
 
It's a SEP field
 
@CatPlusPlus You're thinking about it because otherwise you're not entitled to can't form an opinion about it?
 
I blame whoever linked that
 
9:19 PM
I mean. You don't hesitate to give your opinion. Yet you complain about stuff that's not your problem?
@CatPlusPlus The puppy :/
 
@sehe Good place to stop. Here in the US, there's been quite a bit of growth in charter schools, which get public funding like normal public schools, and do have to meet some basic criteria for providing education, but are free to do as they please within that framework. I'm not sure you can show they're substantially better than schools run directly by the gov't, but I'm pretty sure they're generally at least as good.
 
In Sweden there are many examples of crappy private schools, probably easy to find crappy public schools also.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm aware of that. In holland, there's the same. HOWEVER - and there's the catch relevant to the holiday discussion, official school holidays are regionally regulated.
 
Unless all public schools are not crappy (ahaha) it doesn't prove anything
 
There's been some talk about the new charter schools here in NZ. They have to conform the the national standard and judging by the preliminary results they seem to be performing the same, if not better.
 
9:21 PM
Also that "you must have an opinion on everything" shit I blame on education
 
I'm not absolutely sure whether private schools are absolutely required to adhere to the holidays, but in practice, they might have no choice.
@CatPlusPlus @#$%^&*^%@ Maybe you should get some? Or voluntarily abstain from voting :)
 
Hey don't Perl me
 
That's my liberty
 
Also I never vote
 
@CatPlusPlus but you just would not listen
 
9:22 PM
Good. Then I won't take as much offense with your (portrayed) lack of interest in social themes
 
Nowhere in the Magna Carta does it outline the right to Perl innocent civilians.
 
@sehe Here, unless I'm badly mistaken, all that's regulated is the minimum number of days children must attend school per year (and probably number of hours per day). Most do follow the local schedule fairly closely though.
 
user1804599
I have never voted.
 
@JerryCoffin So there's not actually that big a difference anyways, then
 
user1804599
But I am going to vote in May or June!
 
9:24 PM
@rightfold Hmmm? I do have vivid memories of your favouriting parties
Oh yeah. Age
 
user1804599
@sehe I’m voting either PVV or LP. Which one will probably depend on a dice roll.
 
this is a somewhet interesting alternative but then again meh
 
4.
 
Ell
@rightfold What about MLPP?
 
user1804599
9:27 PM
Swiss government best government.
 
user1804599
@Ell No.
 
@sehe In terms of schedule, not really a huge one, no.
 
user1804599
I am not going to vote Animal Party, sorry.
 
@JohanLarsson Thanks for the link.
 
@rightfold yes sounds really good
 
user1804599
9:28 PM
@JohanLarsson There is too much red on that page. Clearly biased towards socialism.
 
Ell
Grr "He doesn't care about how many people will die because they can't afford this drug, he just wants profit". I don't understand this - he is only decreasing the number of deaths
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Maybe you can kick him some more? Maybe he'll respond hurt. And then you can share some more of your own hurt. We love it. You love it. Everyone wins.
Said nobody in the lounge. Ever.
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1804599
Politicians acting like they don’t know whether this country has nuclear weapons.
 
user1804599
9:38 PM
They waste so much time debating about this nonsense.
 
@rightfold Of course. From their own perspective, their primary job is self-preservation, which often means doing their best to keep people distracted with nonsense so they don't notice how poorly the politicians actually do their jobs.
 
user1804599
Wooo.
 
user1804599
News in five minutes.
 
user1804599
@JerryCoffin It is terrible.
 
user1804599
rightfold for benevolent dictator.
 
9:43 PM
why benevolent?
 
Don't you love when games start in 1280x720 fullscreen, then do 5 minutes of unskippable logos and cutscenes before you can get to the options menu
 
@JerryCoffin don't forget to suboptimize between elections
 
@JohanLarsson benevolent is how it starts...
 
@rightfold news in 1 minute
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson Because there are very few people I wish death upon.
 
9:44 PM
@rightfold just misery, then
 
user1804599
Only two or something.
 
chatters?
 
user1804599
No.
 
user1804599
Wouter and Kiske.
 
user1804599
I will organise a huge party when they die.
 
9:45 PM
never heard of them
 
user1804599
They bullied me in elementary school. vOv
 
user1804599
Therefore they deserve the most painful and horrible death.
 
You should get to know them. Then you won't have these feelings. Well, at least not as onesided anymore :)
 
@rightfold oh no fun
@rightfold prolly not
 
user1804599
Fierce hate.
 
user1804599
9:47 PM
@sehe Why would I? They’re total assholes.
 
user1804599
Well, I guess it will be easier to make their lives miserable too if I know them better.
 
@rightfold You know that - how?
 
user1804599
2 mins ago, by rightfold
They bullied me in elementary school. vOv
 
lol.
 
user1804599
COOL NEWS.
 
9:48 PM
@rightfold focus on code imo, we can do the wpf session
 
@rightfold Yup. And you'll never do nasty shit because you were such a nice boy in elementary school.
 
user1804599
I am not interested in WPF. :P
 
Ell
Grrr I am angerish
 
user1804599
Aaaahhahah.
 
Ell
I need to get trippy
 
9:48 PM
I am going to use MongoDB
 
@JohanLarsson Uncle Bob doesn't use WPF
 
user1804599
> En dan mag u drie keer raden bij welke [politieke] partij hij zit.
 
Ell
time for some david firth to calm my nerves
 
@sehe but you do right?
 
Nope
 
9:49 PM
107
Q: What do two left angle brackets mean?

user2412672I saw a loop which I've never seen before: for (int i = 0; i < (1 << list.Count); i++) I can't understand what (1 << list.Count) means, maybe someone could explain me this?

Why
upboats
so
many
 
@CatPlusPlus XCOM started in 1440x900 fullscreen.
 
:lol:
That doesn't make any sense
 
user1804599
@sehe I didn’t bully anyone. vOv
 
@bamboon tagged list and for-loop no less
 
Simply put: It means that the developer writes bad, unreadable and unmaintainable code. — Prinzhorn 6 hours ago
@rightfold Precisely. That nicely makes you immune from blundering or just generally doing anything wrong. You're so lucky.
 
user1804599
9:51 PM
> Zometeen in het PowNews: het achterwerk van Fleur Agema.
 
@rightfold bu then you cant flame it with credibility
 
user1804599
NICE
 
@rightfold you never killed helpless insects or drove nails into anthill holes?
 
Ell
We pour boiling water into anthills
doesn't seem to do anything
 
user1804599
@doug65536 Former yes, latter no.
 
user1804599
9:53 PM
Nonetheless, I don’t see killing as bullying.
 
user1804599
It won’t make them feel miserable.
 
user3010322
@IlyaIvanov Haha, yes. And also how your employer never can let you go anymore: your code is lightning fast, and the other developers can't understand it. — Robert Fricke 11 hours ago
 
user3010322
WHat?
 
Finally at home
 
user3010322
If you can't understand a bitshift, stop developing.
 
9:54 PM
@sehe because "make it readable" means, "don't use the language" -_-
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked so, I'm playing Heaven's Feel right now, and man, shit's hitting the fan really hard.
 
@Manu343726 there is a general "no-touching" sentiment in place for floating point numbers. Simply, because it's hard to get right and easy to get wrong. In fact, the compiler cannot reorder (a*b*c) since (a*b)*c != a*(b*c) for all values. And henceforth, a*a*a*a cannot be made into (a*a)*(a*a) or even "worse" an integer approximation of the floating point number. Of course, the compiler is free to use the constepxr + as-if rules (so it can calculate at compiletime, if applicatble) — sehe 8 secs ago
 
ugh what the hell
 
@doug65536 I know. Just copied the comment for entertainment value
 
@Xeo Ah FSN?
 
9:55 PM
what's the use case of making your binaries 3x bigger by putting .pdb files with it
 
user1804599
@sehe Not sure if cynical.
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked ya, the third route
 
You'll figure it out.
But, hey, they're not people either :/
 
user1804599
 
9:57 PM
What you think about others totally doesn't affect how you think about yourself, so who cares
 
@BartekBanachewicz Supporting debugging?
 
cool, that game is also on my todo list. (I'll need a long life in order to finish them all at my current rate.)
 
user1804599
@sehe Thinking about them being idiots makes me feel superior.
 
@rightfold In good english:
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked break a leg and you'll have more time on your hand than you'll know what to do with
 
9:57 PM
@rightfold Only shortly and it'll be a lie. Drugs are less bad for your health
 
user1804599
@sehe they have not yet received their punishments.
 
user1804599
I will not sleep.
 
@BartekBanachewicz someday when something crashes, you could have field troubleshooting tools ready to go, without having to screw around with figuring out exactly what version they have.
 
@rightfold lol
 
@Xeo added to my todo list ;)
 
9:58 PM
@rightfold /daknok
 
user1804599
@sehe I should go to sleep.
 
@doug65536 I can't possibly imagine myself debugging it
 
user1804599
I have to drive a car tomorrow.
 
@StackedCrooked lol, it actually reads: "Xeo added to my todo list.", very kinky
8
 
@rightfold !lol
 
9:59 PM
hmpfh
the barebones binary takes 35MB
 
@ScarletAmaranth you bastard
 
@BartekBanachewicz of what?
 
@BartekBanachewicz you wouldn't necessarily have to debug it. just having good stack traces can be enough
 
10:00 PM
... binary of what?
 
Is 100€ for Xeon X5440/8GB RAM/2x1Gbe in a 2U case a good price?
@sehe MongoDB
 
@BartekBanachewicz Also, embedding resources/text/data segment does NOT imply more RAM usage. It's all virtual and the pages won't be loaded anyways
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz at least the database will be zero bytes on disk!
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz No.
 
10:03 PM
@sehe That would still imply more virtual memory though, right?
 
Too true. Sadly, it will still consume large amounts of disk + bandwidth for no reliability
 
@rightfold no?
 
@DeadMG Yup. The guy said "RAM" though.
 
user1804599
You need at least 32 GB of RAM.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Depends on what you want to do with it.
 
10:04 PM
true
 
@Mysticial dunno, host my webpage and experiment with small multiplayers servers
 
@DeadMG somewhere around 4KB per 4MB (of overhead)
 
@BartekBanachewicz 100€/month for a toy server?!
 
@sehe no, 100€ for the server.
 
Oh!
 
10:05 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Then no. That machine eats a lot of power.
 
Sounds like a good deal
 
Especially the ram.
 
right now I have unlimited energy bill
 
100€ for the machine is cheap. But maintaining it won't be.
 
Good points. I think.
 
10:05 PM
but that most certainly won't be the case shall I want to move.
 
Unlimited bills!
 
user1804599
@sehe Ongelimiteerde billen? :0
 
that's why Overmind is now running
but Overmind has a 800Mhz Celeron and 256MB of RAM
which is, let's face it, absurdly low
 
@rightfold Ongelimiteerd van bil
 
user1804599
10:06 PM
Imagine you’re sucking off a turd.
 
The silence. It's so suggestive.
 
@Mysticial are there even any widely-available low-power servers that are not blades?
I was thinking about using a terminal PC
 
@rightfold w t f
 
@BartekBanachewicz They're called laptops.
 
@Borgleader Oh noes. Don't tell me you did it
 
10:07 PM
For a webserver, you really don't need 8 cores.
 
user1804599
Yay! My pull request got merged.
 
user1804599
It is also most annoying to contribute to an open-source project that lacks unit fucking tests.
 
@sehe actual laugh here
 
@Mysticial so in general I shouldn't buy a 2-CPU setup
@Mysticial hm
 
@Mysticial Depends on a webserver
 
10:08 PM
I was thinking about a laptop but laptops are expensive
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not until you have the volume to really need it, anyway.
 
(compared to sellout servers)
 
The only reasons you want a 2-CPU machine are:
1. You actually need the computing power. And the work won't distribute to multiple machines.
2. To toy around with. Bragging rights. etc...
3. To develop software for such a platform.
 
@BartekBanachewicz but thinking about them is not
 
10:09 PM
@BartekBanachewicz They're expensive and relatively fragile. Many (most?) won't handle running under an appreciable load for months at a time.
 
this one costs 50€ ^
but it has 480W PSU :/
@JerryCoffin exactly
 
Recently I realized that atomic operations become more expensive as you are more cores.
 
@BartekBanachewicz what's the workload? cpu bound?
 
Laptops are shit, don't use them, unless it's really just a toy and you don't want any reliability whatsoever
 
@doug65536 mostly RAM I think
but I guess I would like something that could handle compiling Haskell
 
10:11 PM
You need RAM for compiling anything
CPU will just make it faster or slower, not necessarily make it impossible
 
so what's the reasonable minimum for such a server? 2? 4?
 
And you don't want your server processes get killed by OOM because GHC suddenly needs that measly 4GB you got there :v
 
8GB ones get a lot more expensive
 
@BartekBanachewicz Depends on load. 2 is pretty tight, and might shit itself on a larger codebase
 
10:12 PM
the ones they stuffed with 2/4 go around 50-80€
 
Is that what you want?
 
lel nope.
 
Pretty insightful. I like your closing thoughts. Exactly the sort of thing that might be worth suggesting to the Boost Geometry devs — sehe 5 secs ago
 
@BartekBanachewicz real servers have registered ECC ram so the price scales up more than your typical desktop when you add ram
 
@Doodler: Oh, my goodness. Now that does complicate matters somewhat. — John Dibling 4 hours ago
lol
 
10:13 PM
@BartekBanachewicz The X5440 uses FB-DIMM ram. They use a lot more power than normal ECC ram.
 
@doug65536 and 10/15k SCSI 2.5" HDDs which are expensive as fuck too
@Mysticial dang. So much stuff I didn't know.
 
Eh, at that price range you won't find SAS servers
 
Serial SCSI
 
user1804599
I am going to sleep.
 
10:15 PM
@BartekBanachewicz The screenshot I posted was my 2 x X5482 machine with 64GB of ram. It was a maintenance hell.
 
Parallel connections are p much dead now
 
Mostly because of the ram. How hot they run and how much power they draw.
 
user1804599
See you tomorrow or in a few days.
 
@Mysticial what about cases? Should I prefer regular desktop-like ones over racks?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Unless you're actually gonna stack them up in a rack, you're better off sticking with a massive case and tons of fans.
The fans will need to be focused specifically on the north bridge and the ram.
 
10:16 PM
heh, my attic has like +3 degrees celsius now
 
And since you have the X-series, you need them on the mosfets as well.
 
@BartekBanachewicz 3 degrees sounds like a typical server room :)
 
that's why my overmind is nice and cozy there
but then again, I won't live here forever
1x DualCore 5140 2,33Ghz 4mb L2/ 4GB/ 6x 3,5" HDD <- 80€
and 720W PSU, lel.
 
Just check if your consumer hardware is rated for +3 degrees :v
 
if it dies I won't cry really
it has a gigabyte mobo, it can take an earthquake
I was pleasantly surprised it has stuff like automatic power-back-power-on, too
also the cool thing about those (real server) boxes is the remote control
 
10:23 PM
@BartekBanachewicz network kvm?
 
@doug65536 no, control over the server itself
something like virtual IT guy standing next to it with case open
like, you can mount an ISO image, for example
to a non-virtualized OS
 
@doug65536 Generally known as "out of band management". There's a whole series of standards (IPMI) devoted to how it's done.
 
@JerryCoffin yeah, I was on WS-Management team at microsoft and we had some machines that had that
you can get at that stuff through WMI in windows
 
lel w/e my roommate gave me his old pc for now
maybe I'll buy it off him
it has 4GB of RAM and a Core 2 Duo
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz With the cost of electricity, it might just be cheaper to rent a VPS.
 
10:32 PM
@Lalaland I am not paying for electricity
 
for some reason we must have ECC RAM and Xeon processors on our workstations at work.
 
@JohanLarsson obvious reason is extreme stability. you need xeon to use ecc
 
but extreme stability is strange on a workstation, the CAD sw crashes all over the place any way
 
@JohanLarsson yes, but the software is crashing perfectly :P
 
I couldn't tell :)
 
Actually, the solution should be simple: piecewise_construct was designed for this (among other things). See, however, my answer for the prelimary results. — sehe 18 secs ago
@Griwes Statistically, they do contribute. I mean, vaccines are increasing life expectancy...
 
lol
 
@Griwes where's whyareapplecomputersmorestable.com ?
 
@doug65536 Make it
 
@doug65536 It's not needed. Nobody claims this.
 
user406009
10:38 PM
Apple computers are probably more stable on average, if only because there are a bunch of junky windows drivers.
 
For the record one of the selling points of std::piecewise_construct is that it allows in-place construction of non-movable types (when it takes more than one argument for such a type). The big catch however is that there's only one way to implement piecewise construction, via delegating constructors -- which makes it very intrusive. Piecewise constructors must be in std::tuple to get the real boon. — Luc Danton Aug 7 '12 at 17:38
@Luc do you have any thoughts relating to this question/answer? stackoverflow.com/a/21444128/85371
Reading your comment makes me wonder whether there's a hint why Boost Containers might not have it (for c++03 compat?)
 
@Griwes ಠ_ಠ
 
What worries me most are those approve votes.
 
@Griwes Maybe they didn't see the yolo part? I honestly didn't at first
Misclick maybe?
 
10:48 PM
@Borgleader ಠ_ಠ
In all seriousness, hard not to notice that that edit breaks links.
 
@Lalaland that's why microsoft has that WHQL stuff. they put drivers through brutal stress and put them through extensive unit testing. it costs a fortune to have it done though
 
Also I still had /r/gaming open
reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/1gnlvh/… This is so hilariously terrible
 
> So... the rule is an AND gate?
lel
 
@sehe Boost has its own factory thingies but I’d be surprised if Boost.Containers made use of it. One way or the other, I’m not familiar with that library.
 
Okay... I'm still in the rabbit hole
 
10:56 PM
In other news, some people are idiots.
 
@EtiennedeMartel 'murica
 
The requirement for delegating constructors is very much there btw.
 
Okay. Just found this:
modular-boost/boost/container/detail$ grep -wRI piecewise_construct .
./pair.hpp:static const piecewise_construct_t piecewise_construct = piecewise_construct_t();
./pair.hpp:   //piecewise_construct missing
This might be a known issue. Strange though, because external interface seems to be using std::pair
 
I think that one is fairly innocuous.
 
"that one"? The comment? The corresponding constructor is really missing! It's commented out :)
 
10:59 PM
Depedency. brb
 

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