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1:01 PM
Hope you won't mention timezones, DST, leap seconds, or relativity.
 
Leap seconds are fun
 
I'll try not to, but yeah I was thinking about that
 
balls.
I wrote a fix for a bug in my parser but did not add an appropriate test.
that's noob way of doing things.
 
@user7236293 Probably a bit, but not for Comic Sans. I find it enjoyable.
@DeadMG did you ever see how I did my transitions?
 
nop
 
1:06 PM
@BartoszKP If you ignore all of those, it's a vector space like any other. It's even affine. Even if you consider those (except relativity, but let's not go crazy) you can just dismiss all potential problems as representation issues, as long as you don't start doing arithmetic with vague quantities like "1 month" or "1 day" or "1 hour" (gosh, yeah, even "1 hour" isn't quite good).
 
Oh.
I just feel some of this is a giant mess.
I feel like I am doing a lot of boilerplate.
Like.
I dread having to add a new room.
But I would gladly work on the AI again.
And that has taken me quite a while already.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, that's one problem you started noticing - what is the required quantization? 1 hour isn't quite good, 1 minute, 1 second, ... ?
 
IOW R doesn't stop being a vector space because you use some funky numeral system.
@BartoszKP 1 second is good enough because leap seconds are the smallest such nonsense we invented.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes consider multiplication
 
Is it normal to despise boilerplate?
 
1:10 PM
@BartoszKP You can only multiply time intervals by scalars.
It isn't an inner product space or anything.
 
@Pawnguy7 If you are a riveter by profession, yes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes and a scalar in your space is? : )
 
@BartoszKP Any real number.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd be surprised if GPS did not use something smaller.
 
@DeadMG 1 second is still the largest fixed unit anyway.
What I meant was that 1 minute can be 59, 60, or 61 seconds long, but 1 second is always 1000 milliseconds long, etc.
 
1:12 PM
Also.
We discussed how strings are kind of like an interface.
 
"Add 60 seconds" always adds the same amount. "Add 1 minute" adds different amounts depending on what you are adding to.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes huh what?
 
@DeadMG There are no leap milliseconds :P (Gosh)
@rubenvb 1 minute can be 59, 60, or 61 seconds long.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not by math's definition of a minute: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute
 
@rubenvb Doesn't matter here.
 
1:16 PM
well yes it does, cause that's where it essentially comes from. You're talking about leapminutes
 
@rubenvb No, I'm not.
There's a reason I used commonplace English instead of any precise mathematical notation.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes neutral elements of a field need to be elements of the same set, you can't have real numbers here
 
(Also SI is from physics, not maths)
 
arcseconds and arcminutes are very much maths.
 
@BartoszKP I never said it was a field.
@rubenvb Doesn't matter here. No one is talking about angles. Would you stop being obtuse for nought?
 
1:18 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes if you want it to be a space, it needs to a field at first
 
@BartoszKP Are you sure? What's the neutral element of R^2?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes right, you can have different sets. then it's a vector space
 
@BartoszKP I said so above.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, sorry, I'm trying to write this down from the start, and I'm just jumping back to chat window to reply : )
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I just can't seem to locate the point in the preceding discussion where a minute that is 59, 60, or 61 seconds came to be important. All I see is some brabbling about vector spaces and time as a vector. Anyways, forget it. I see no interesting information in the discussion as a whole, let alone the minute thing.
 
1:23 PM
@rubenvb Leap seconds
 
I have to admit that Zoidberg's sausage-consumption is more interesting ATM.
 
Xeo
@MartinJames It's in binary.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes all right, so first thing: if it's a vector space, we need to have at least two things: origin , negative elements. 1) origin (first difference from spaces over ints) is arbitrary - we don't know when time has started so we use 1970 in computers 2) negative elements are dates before 1970 thus not representable (second difference between dates and ints). Although I agree that it's still a space, just not all elements are representable - that's a meaningful difference isn't it?
 
@CatPlusPlus hence my "leapminutes". A minute is always 60 seconds in my world. leapseconds occur between minutes. Argh whatever.
 
@rubenvb If you want, I was talking about UTC minutes, not SI minutes. I thought a timekeeping standard was more relevant for the matter at hand.
 
1:26 PM
@Xeo Whatever the base is, the fact remains that I have no sausages in the freezer, and I'm hungry:(
 
@rubenvb This is in context of exact time arithmetic, so fixed minute is not helpful
 
@BartoszKP Why not representable? WTF
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes all right, all ints are also not representable
 
-1 is December 31 1969 23:59:59 Z.
 
Origin is always arbitrary
 
1:27 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol, the whole discussion doesn't make sense as even integers in computers are a space
 
Where does R^2 plane start? It's infinite
 
@BartoszKP That's a different matter. We usually ignore physical limitations when dealing with this.
 
@CatPlusPlus (0,0) as 0 is the neutral element, and it comes straight from the Peano's axioms. There is no such element for time
 
@BartoszKP But FWIW, Unix time uses signed integers so it can represent dates before 1970 perfectly fine.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes all right
 
1:29 PM
"There is no neutral element for time"... WTF.
 
@BartoszKP 1970 or whatever is (0, 0) and elements in the space are relative to it
 
It's also not the be-all end-all of time in computers.
 
It's hearkens to the end-of-time though
 
Well, not (0, 0), it's not 2D
 
@rubenvb I meant there is no "natural" neutral time element, in the same sense as for numbers. 0 comes from maths axioms and set theory, I agree that it's also arbitrary, but far more less arbitrary than 1970 /cc @CatPlusPlus
 
1:31 PM
But whatever
Axioms are arbitrary :/
 
@CatPlusPlus that's what I said :|
 
@BartoszKP You have one problem: year 0 never happened.
 
@rubenvb that's not my problem ;0 tell this to Robot and Cat : D
 
@BartoszKP But it doesn't matter which date you pick as 0, it still works
The elements are still relative to that point
 
Then why the fuss? Choose a 0, work in seconds. Problem solved. 1D time, no complications.
 
1:32 PM
@CatPlusPlus I agree, I'm not saying that this ruins everything
 
Until you want to convert to "useful" time.
 
Ahaha "no complications" and dates, right
 
@rubenvb in seconds? so, what do you get when you multiply 1 second with 0.5 ?
 
0.5 seconds
 
JBL
@CatPlusPlus Well, quite simply, a one-dimensional space. But oh well.
 
1:33 PM
@BartoszKP half a second. It's a unit. Your space is R.
duh
 
.NET uses 00:00:00.0000000, January 1, 0001 as origin.
@rubenvb That's just a representation issue.
Pick a different calendar if you want.
 
Does anyone know the small buffer size used by std::function in libstdc++?
 
@StackedCrooked It's usually sizeof(void*) plus sizeof(member function pointer), I believe.
 
I looked at the code and it's very confusing.
 
Xeo
1:35 PM
Standard recommends sizeof(void*) + sizeof(S T::*)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, now consider negative elements - they don't have any sense (the same as for 1970, just didn't see it then)
 
@BartoszKP Why not?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes what's the conceptual sense of -1 (February 1993) ?
 
@BartoszKP Because the Egyptians lived in untime?
 
@BartoszKP You are mixing representation issues in.
 
1:36 PM
@DeadMG From the code I could see that it is one or two pointers.
 
Your values are not absolute, they're relative
 
What's the conceptual sense of <nonsense>?
 
Do a symmetry over 0 point
 
What's the conceptual sense of fhdsfjhsdjfkhsd in the real numbers?
 
@rubenvb what's the sense of negative time before the beginning of the universe :|
 
1:37 PM
What's the conceptual sense of 1 Lounginary 2013?
 
Your zero point is not beginning of the universe
 
That doesn't work.
 
@BartoszKP well, for one, the beginning of the universe is a point in 4D spacetime (according to general relativity), second, science is still debating about the exact details.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you won't get "fhdsfjhsdjfkhsd " using operations from real-number space. Yet you will get a date that doesn't make sense from operation in time-space
 
@BartoszKP No you won't. Give me an example.
 
1:37 PM
10 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
-1 is December 31 1969 23:59:59 Z.
 
Hint: the goshdamn calendar doesn't matter.
 
oh god date handling
runs away
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 00:00:00.0000000, January 1, 0001 - 1000000000000000000000000000000000^1000000000000000000000000000 years
 
@BartoszKP What's the problem with it?
 
1:38 PM
"0001"
 
@BartoszKP That's 00:00:00.0000000, January 1, (1000000000000000000000000000000000^1000000000000000000000000000) BC.
 
thing is the universe wasn't there that long
 
You know we still don't even know if universe even had a beginning
 
(No, you cannot represent that with .NET's DateTime; that's a physical limitation, not a conceptual problem)
 
@CatPlusPlus , @R.MartinhoFernandes all right, fair point
 
1:39 PM
@CatPlusPlus yeah you know earth is 6000 years old
 
@CatPlusPlus Right you are. Big bang just has a ring to it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So?
 
@CatPlusPlus that was supposed to be a joke. on dumb creationists.
 
It still doesn't matter vOv
If you're working on a theory that assumes (1000000000000000000000000000000000^1000000000000000000000000000) BC exists, then why wouldn't you be able to use that date? :v
 
@xeo and @R.MartinhoFernandes mildly spammy reminder... give money!!!
 
1:40 PM
@CatPlusPlus Because it wouldn't be a date. There never was a calendar system that supported that era
 
@CatPlusPlus well, that's the small point here - no one works on a theory like that
 
@BartoszKP Doesn't matter
 
@BartoszKP FWIW, "-1 (February 1993)" could make sense if there was a commonly agreed representation between us that mapped that to a point in time.
 
@CatPlusPlus in general, yes. But it is a small difference between dates and ints
 
I found that interesting.
It is.... bounded, sort of.
 
1:41 PM
They both work perfectly fine as infinite sets, so... no
 
@sehe The proleptic Gregorian calendar can be extended indefinitely.
 
I don't see where you got that information. Can you quote/refer to the specific document location that tells you there isn't a serialization library for VS2013? (I can see that VC12 isn't listed under (additional) test compilers yet, but that's a different matter) — sehe 1 min ago
 
@CatPlusPlus small difference in terms of interpretations. As pure abstraction - you're right
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wokay. Then, problem solved :)
 
@sehe Make one, who cares
 
1:42 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes in both directions?
 
You're already inventing a new age of the universe, might as well make a calendar for it!
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why not? (That's what "proleptic" means; the "not-proleptic" one starts in 1582 and can only extend forward)
 
all right, I give up! Can't think of anything against datetime-space right now. <white-flag>
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh yeah right date handling nipple salads
 
Uhoh. Somehow I fear that libcurlpp isn't going to be much better than plain libcurl:
Making all in functor
make[3]: Entering directory `/tmp/curlpp-0.7.3/include/utilspp/functor'
make[3]: Nothing to be done for `all'.
make[3]: Leaving directory `/tmp/curlpp-0.7.3/include/utilspp/functor'
Making all in singleton
make[3]: Entering directory `/tmp/curlpp-0.7.3/include/utilspp/singleton'
 
1:44 PM
> Serialization can't compile because of a missing include.
 
@sehe hahaha
 
From the release page the OP linked.
 
@rubenvb Yeah. Well. Blimey. Add include. I saw that
 
> Support was removed from Config for some very old versions of compilers. The new minimum requirements are:
> Digitial Mars 8.41
> GCC 3.3
> Intel 6.0
> Visual C++ 7.1
 
1:45 PM
Clearly, Boost 1.55.0 is unusable with VS2013.
 
(these are not very old compilers)
Also: digitial
 
also my coworkers laughed a lot when I told them I get rep here by explaining GL spec to people
we had a fun evening yesterday in general
best source of Khronos gossip ever.
 
@CatPlusPlus /ˈdɪd͡ʒɪʃəl/
 
did you figure out how to implement gl spec
on gpus
 
I never seem to get a fun evening out of graphics discussion.
 
1:46 PM
@CatPlusPlus nobody figured that yet
 
		  // The first easiest example is to retreive the content of
		  // a web page and put it in a stream.
		  std::cout << curlpp::options::Url("http://example.com");
And, also very articulate:
 
I don't think there's a single device on the planet that has ultimate 100% conformance.
 
		  myRequest.setOpt(myUrl);
		  std::ostringstream os;
		  curlpp::options::WriteStream ws(&os);
		  myRequest.setOpt(ws);
		  myRequest.perform();

		  // There is some shorcut within curlpp that allow you to write shorter code
		  // like this:
		  os << myRequest;
 
whoosh
 
time to get back to my objective-c task -.-
 
1:47 PM
@sehe Why is Url in options
 
@CatPlusPlus eh.
 
Why is WriteStream in options
why
 
why
some questions we will never get answers to
 
@CatPlusPlus It's the model of the underlying PAI:
 
@CatPlusPlus Because it's libcurl. You expected a sensible interface from that?
 
1:49 PM
    /** set query URL */
    if (res==CURLE_OK) res = curl_easy_setopt(curl, CURLOPT_URL, url.c_str());
 
We're gong to another pub quiz tonight. I somehow doubt that grahics library API's wil come up.
 
@sehe mmmm 'PAI'
 
Pretty Abhorrent Interface
 
Is there any Elisp expert in here? I'd like to use espect.el but it does not seem to compile.
 
There are no elisp experts
They all died of old age
 
1:50 PM
@wilx what's the error (i'm not an expert)?
 
eh seriously
 
@thecoshman API*
 
unicode has 𒇷 but it doesn't have a damn coffee bean icon?
 
@MartinJames Hmm, that reminds me I haven't been to one in a while now.
 
@CatPlusPlus lol
 
1:51 PM
@BartoszKP espect.el:115:1:Error: Wrong number of arguments: (lambda (name lambda-list &body code) "Define a rule name NAME that executes CODE." (puthash name (cons (quote lambda) (cons lambda-list code)) espect-rules)), 3
The line numbers are likely off.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Is that a cuneiform character?
 
There are line numbers? I thought lipsers only count parentheses
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes last Friday, Anne & I were in team that was joint last:(
 
@sehe captain obvious
 
@MartinJames Hey, last time I went with my friends we made two teams and placed last and second-to-last.
 
1:52 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes please tell me you didn't just know that
hmm there's 🍵 and 🍜
 
@BartekBanachewicz (Unicode doesn't make up characters; it just collects them from everywhere)
Well, except for the FARSI SYMBOL.
No one knows where that thing came from.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes tell that to "miscellaneous symbols" and "emoticons" categories
 
@BartekBanachewicz Those were collected from elsewhere too.
 
oh great, I had to look up elisp then lisp then polish prefix notation then rage
 
@wilx what version do you have? seems like currently indeed puthash takes 3 arguments
 
1:53 PM
Do you know some coffee bean character that is in common usage? Propose it. (NO DON'T! DON'T PUT THAT SHIT THERE; THERE'S ENOUGH ALREADY)
 
@BartoszKP GNU Emacs 24.3.1 (i686-pc-cygwin, GTK+ Version 3.8.2) of 2013-08-14 on moufang
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes One problem is that the quiz was supposed to start at 19:30 but ended up kicking off at 20:30. Anne and I were well-oiled by then. For some reason, I could remember that Valetta was the capital of Malta but, when 'Thailand' came up, the answer evaded me even though I've been there:((
 
1F375 🍵 TEACUP WITHOUT HANDLE
→ 2615 ☕  hot beverage
→ 26FE ⛾  cup on black square
2
 
@wilx I'll try to compile it on mine
 
JBL
I swear I think I won't ever understand locales, fonts and encodings...
I see boxes in the chat :/
 
1:55 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Well, I can just look at it...
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was merely expecting to find it there somehow
 
Cuneiform is quite recognisable.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes o_0
 
Locales are unrelated
 
@JBL your local fonts don't have characters to display in that encoding. (stretched to fit all 3 in one sentence)
 
1:56 PM
Ugh no
You're bad, go to the corner
 
The local font doesn't have a glyph for that character.
I think.
 
yeah I wanted to squeeze "encoding"
but it's just off and irrelevant
 
Anyone here has any experience with BHOs?
 
JBL
@BartekBanachewicz Then why do I see boxes though I keep reading that my font/encoding/whatever is supposed to support them... :/
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum what are those?
 
JBL
1:57 PM
That's what I bug on.
 
@thecoshman don't ask?
 
Do you use Chrome
 
@JBL You have fonts that support cuneiform?
 
@JBL where did you read your fonts have glyphs for ancient typography?
 
JBL
Yes.
 
1:57 PM
@wilx I have GNU Emacs 24.3.1 (i386-mingw-nt6.0.6002) and this line compiles fine. I've also added require 'espect to my .emacs and it works
 
		using namespace curlpp::Options;
		request.setOpt(new Verbose(true));
		request.setOpt(new ReadFunction(curlpp::types::ReadFunctionFunctor(readData)));
		request.setOpt(new InfileSize(size));
		request.setOpt(new Upload(true));
		request.setOpt(new HttpHeader(headers));
		request.setOpt(new Url(url));
 
Chrome is shit at font fallback
 
Do you use Chrome?
 
Yay for C++!
 
Also, @R.MartinhoFernandes I still haven't gotten that resharper for C++ trial (if you can help me with that that'd be awesome) but clang static analysis tools for C++ in VS are very nice ^^
 
1:58 PM
@JBL Your text renderer is not smart enough to find them.
 
I.e. it can't do it on its own
 
JBL
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, not necessarily. But it happened with a shitload of different chars.
 
@BartoszKP Odd.
 
@BartekBanachewicz how you write extensions for IE. It's C++, the docs just really really suck.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum So much suckage in one sentence indeed.
 
1:58 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Have fun users.teilar.gr/~g1951d
 
@JBL Single fonts rarely support every character
Very rarely
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah well I have that
 
And Chrome can't deal with missing glyphs properly, because it's a turd
hth
 
JBL
Oh so back to FF (until I remember why I left it and just don't browse the web anymore)
 
Oo Cat++, look! a bitcoin chat!
 

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