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2:44 AM
Put this into a translator, got a potted meat product. — user16217248 Sep 28 at 3:41
 
3:27 AM
@RyanM Re this comment you made, I'm not sure what's arguable about declining that flag. It's blatantly UU, and the only defensible position for declining that flag is that the mod made a mistake in handling it. If the decline was intentional that's not really acceptable IMO. Maybe it's a result of the prevailing anti-Russia sentiment, because surely a comment naming any other country as being a dick would be considered UU?
I could certainly see not wanting to place a spam/R/A penalty for such a comment, but validating a UU flag on a comment has no direct consequences, so what's the harm in validating it? I'm not even comfortable with your prevarication. Even as a part of the mod team, and not wanting to say another mod did something wrong, I'm fairly surprised to not see a response of "oh, it just looks like misclick by another mod" from you.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:38 AM
@cigien Mostly disagree; calling a country names isn't the same as calling a person names. The comment was not, in its overall tenor, unfriendly or unkind. It was praising someone and showing appreciation. It was poorly phrased, and it is unnecessary, but it's not really something that we would want to take action against a user for posting.
 
@CodyGray you should update your phone before the nuclear party, time is ticking :-)
 
What actually happened there is that the comment was flagged as both U/U and H/B/A. Mods can't separately decline comment flags (unlike post flags), so it's an all-or-nothing affair. It seems pretty clear to me that the mod who handled it didn't think it rose to the level of H/B/A, which I completely agree with, so wanted to decline that flag. That also resulted in the U/U flag being declined.
 
 
3 hours later…
8:36 AM
@cigien I would certainly say that "Russians are dicks" in the same context is unequivocally U/U. Part of the problem here is that we have somewhat ...fuzzy... guidelines over what political speech is and is not acceptable, with the general hard line being that attacking people is not okay. I read this as a very poorly phrased "Russia's invasion is unjustified", which isn't exactly attacking people, as such. That said, I would have validated the flag myself, in order to err on the side of a mod at least taking a look if it's repeated to see if the user needs some coaching on leaving politics out of comments, as it shouldn't really be there.
Generally I'd rather validate bad flags than decline good ones, at least where there's no direct penalty. So I wouldn't decline a borderline U/U to decline an invalid H/B/A.
That said, I don't know that there is or should be that much difference in how we handle U/U vs. H/B/A...I don't think there's any difference in the system.
There's also the matter of intent: as Cody said, they were attempting to be positive. Just...in a misguided way. I lean toward validating flags on misguided stuff, personally, as the penalty of "a mod looks at your comments and decides if there's a pattern of problematic content" is ...not actually a real penalty in itself, and no one even finds out unless they get a mod message.
 
8:58 AM
Yeah, I agree with most of that. But that's not what cigien is disputing.
His issue is that you didn't say "it must have been a misclick, because a decline of a U/U flag on that comment is invalid". (Presumably, he'd say the same thing about an H/B/A flag, but I'm not sure.)
 
9:23 AM
I would say the same about a H/B/A flag. Yes, the user was not trying to be unkind, and were in fact trying to show appreciation. However, the appropriate way to do that is by showing appreciation (something along the lines of "Ukraine is great" or whatever), not by putting down someone else (or some other group or country). I agree completely that taking action against a user for such a comment would be excessive, but validating a comment flag has no effect.
In fact, validating such flags is good, because if the user is making a habit of showing appreciation in this manner, I would hope a mod would step in and say, "Hey, I totally get what you're trying to do, but could you rephrase how you show appreciation in the future?". And I really fail to understand what benefit there is to declining those comment flags. Do you really want users to not flag "X is a dick" comments as U/U, or H/B/A in the future?
@CodyGray To clarify, I take issue with the flag being declined. I don't really take issue with Ryan's comment, I was just a bit surprised to see them saying that.
 
I think I understood that perfectly?
But yeah, I think it'd be better if the comment were just flagged as NLN.
 
The fact that the comment was other-ing a whole country is delicate indeed.
 
I mean, we have users on the network with user names like "Russia Sucks", and staff have said repeatedly they're fine with it.
So, as long as you're attacking the "right" group, our politics seem to say it's cool.
I've raised concerns/complaints about this before, but they've all been dismissed. The response is typically something ranging from "we judge it on a case-by-case basis" to "stop being so damn argumentative; you know what we mean".
 
Why would it be better? I almost never raise comment flags other than NLN, but this comment seems to fall quite clearly on the side of UU. I'll also mention that I saw the response by Ryan last night, and decided to sleep on it before saying something. I think my issue is that if the country that was mentioned was any other country, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and that's upsetting to me.
@CodyGray Wait, really? That's an acceptable username?
 
So be it, but it just keeps showing that we are better off growing a thicker skin over having our flags declined. They don't really teach that much.
 
9:31 AM
@cigien I put it in quote marks, but it's not meant to be an exact quote. Still, the sentiment is the same. So... yes, apparently?
I mean, we have a mod whose user name is "Russia Must Remove Putin". Is that not inflammatory?
@E_net4thecommentflagger Hahaha, what a novel idea. I wish I'd been saying that for years.
 
@CodyGray Ah, I see. Yeah, that's not cool IMO.
 
@CodyGray There was a meta post about it... At least one person found it unappealing.
 
My position is, effectively, that, although the system does not currently apply any immediate penalties when H/B/A flags are applied, I handle them as if it did, much in the same way as I would handle R/A flags on posts. (And, similarly, why I still maintain a distinction between spam and R/A red flags, even though they're handled identically by the system. That's an implementation detail, and it could [should?] change at any time.)
So, while I see the issues with the comment, and I think it needs to be immediately deleted, I'm more on the side of it not being H/B/A, so I'd want to decline that flag.
 
@E_net4thecommentflagger Just in case it wasn't clear, this has nothing to do with how one should react to flags being declined. It's to do with the circumstances that lead to such a flag being declined, and other mods saying, yeah, there's an argument to be made for declining such flags.
 
So this is really directly contra cigien, who says that the H/B/A should be validated since it has no effect.
@VLAZ Can you name something that there's not been a Meta post about because at least one person found it unappealing? I'll wait. :-)
 
9:35 AM
@cigien Do you fear that future flags on comments of a similar nature might get the same treatment?
 
@CodyGray What's with the impossible tasks? Do I look like Heracles to you?
 
So, while I understand the point that if it's dependent on the specific country that is being attacked, that's a very bad precedent (and completely agree), I don't actually think that's what motivated it in this case, either for me or for the mod who handled the flag.
So "I think my issue is that if the country that was mentioned was any other country, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and that's upsetting to me." doesn't really apply, in my assessment.
(Sorry for my general incoherence. I'm also drafting a similarly-incoherent email. :-))
@VLAZ Exactly like the statue, yes.
 
@E_net4thecommentflagger No, it's not the flags I'm concerned about. It's that apparently a user can in theory go around saying "Russia is a dick", and mods don't feel that's something that even needs to be tracked indirectly through validated UU flags (which means no follow up at all unless someone raises a custom flag). That seems strange to me.
 
At the scale of SO, that's not really the kind of thing we typically follow up on, for whatever it's worth.
 
If there was someone persistently accusing people of cowardice over votes, I'd sure wish that user to be given a warning.
 
9:40 AM
@CodyGray Not for individual occurrences, of course, but N number of validated UU flags is something a mod would have to look at right? And actively dismiss if they wanted to?
 
Mmm, yeah, but... the auto-flag is raised after 3 comments, and the typical case is going to be one comment like that, one comment that is borderline that got deleted anyway, and then something else.
I think a lot of mods would dismiss such an auto-flag without bothering to take any action, especially not composing a lengthy message trying to explain to the user in detail (and expecting arguments/confusion in response) what's wrong with comments like these.
The more expedient route by far is just to delete them and move on.
I agree that if that specific comment became a pattern or something, then it'd be worth following up on, but the tooling doesn't really work that way.
I don't know, maybe you should leave comments persistently accusing mods of being cowardly and lazy. :-p
 
I see. And yeah, I don't want to imply at all that there's some systemic issue that's being ignored in this regard. I just felt like saying something because the handling of the flag and Ryan's response just didn't sit right with me.
 
I mean, patterns of low quality questions influence the user's ability to ask further questions. One could only hope that a similar effect occurred to users with a tendency to be nasty.
 
9:44 AM
no, understood, and I'm not complaining about your complaining. :-)
@E_net4thecommentflagger One could hope, but... That's all one would be doing.
 
One could hope for oh so many things indeed.
 
I mean, the reality is quite different. Even if a moderator was diligent and followed up on every user with a tendency to leave borderline comments, what you'd get is them being sent a warning message, which doesn't in any way interfere with their ability to ask further questions.
Even if the pattern continued, and, again, a mod diligently followed up, the user would end up suspended for a week, which is far less than would happen to a user who consistently asked low-quality questions and thus hit a question ban.
@E_net4thecommentflagger Yeah, one thing we might be hoping for soon is more mods. :-)
 
More mods, less mobs.
 
Diamondize all the mobsters?
 
Lemonize all the lobsters.
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2 hours later…
12:02 PM
 

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