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12:41 AM
> seems to be a shortcoming that I cannot check if a future is active
That's a big sad.
 
1:10 AM
@Shepmaster It has been a busy few months in my life let me tell you hahah. I got married mid-July and in September my wife and I moved to Japan for a year
 
1:26 AM
@Shepmaster haha
@loganfsmyth so you come to SO only when bored? well, seem legit :p
 
1:56 AM
@Stargateur hahah kinda. If I'm at my computer and not focused on anything specific, it's one of the sites I open to feel like I'm being productive :P
 
 
4 hours later…
6:02 AM
Nowadays, I am switching back to Java from Rust due to work requirements. Most of the time it feels as childs play after getting used to Rust compiler :)
 
 
2 hours later…
8:18 AM
@Websterix More generally, coming from a language with ADT to a "classical" OOP one is awful.
 
8:29 AM
Can you really say there are languages "with ADT" and languages "without ADT" ? Even in Java you often define your frameworks with intefaces. Rust goes much further but I don't think it's all black and white
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my mind, ADT = product types + sum types and everything coming with (pattern matching, etc.)
 
I'd say it starts with abstract types, goes on with interfaces, gets better with product types or GAT, etc. It's more of a direction or practice to me
 
Wikipedia seems to give that information: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_data_type
 
gosh... I was reading your previous comment as about Abstract Data Types, which are related but not the same... So yes, you're right (when talking about Algebraic Data Types which are a more precise topic)
 
@DenysSéguret Huh, sorry, that's my bad: I shouldn't have used an acronym at first
 
9:11 AM
Ohh now it makes sense ^^
 
9:34 AM
I have googled Abstract Data Types for an hour to get the sense ^^
 
9:58 AM
@FrenchBoiethios For me the unique selling point is the trait system (typeclasses if you like) vs OOP. (I'm not saying ADT is not good, on the contrary, it is bloody brilliant and I'm missing it on a daily basis when I work with other languages at work but having things plain and simple without the awfulness of inheritance makes your objects so much more flexible, leaner, modular, easy to reason about, etc.)
 
@PeterVaro That's clearly a point
 
And that's nothing the usual abstract-base-classes or interfaces could easily replace.
 
Nope, because you cannot implement your own abstractions for a foreign type
 
10:17 AM
I agree that it's the main pain point
 
10:46 AM
Jesus fucking christ
somebody save me
the javascript ecosystem is such chaos, it's insane
 
yes it is
(and maybe the rust/web ecosystem will be too in a few years)
I was already asked yesterday what rust web framework I mastered
 
11:22 AM
@SébastienRenauld nothing beats the insanity of the Python ecosystem.. we don't even have a proper (as in, actually working) package manager..
 
11:37 AM
@DenysSéguret agree but Rust is much more functional than java
 
@Stargateur rust is much better in every aspects
 
this without saying :p
 
In fact that's not true
 
@SébastienRenauld don't forget your bingo grid:
 
(still not banned?)
Rust is harder and make you sometimes bang your head because you thought it would be more proper to do a zero-String framework and then you have to jungle with awful constructs because of the severe lifetime problems you forced yourself into
@Stargateur I feel that too much attention is given to that problem. There are oddities, but JS conversions are OK once you admit a variable doesn't define anything typewise. Most of the conversions in this grid are quite natural.
 
11:45 AM
@DenysSéguret yeah but this still sux
 
12:31 PM
@DenysSéguret I couldn't disagree more. Being dynamic and strongly typed (similar to Python) has nothing to do with those type conversions. It all boils down to one crucial detail in the language-design-philosophy: should errors pass silently or not? Or in other words, should the language designer be more clever than they actually are and try to guess what they obviously can't just to avoid trhowing/returning any kind of error?
The answer to that -- in any SANE language -- is obviously no.
You just make everyone's (literally, the implementer, the user, the maintainer, the consumer, etc.) life as miserable as you possibly can.
 
converting isn't an error. It's quite useful, just like JS is once you realize not all languages are designed for all purposes
And now JS is used for purposes it wasn't designed for. People using JS to write everything are the ones to blame, not the language
 
Well, when JS was designed (it was never really designed, was it?) it wasn't meant to be a full-blown language
I got that part, and that's fine
however, we passed that stage more than 15 years ago
why should I care about it now, when I have to maintain a large-scale application in it?
 
just don't maintain a large scale application in JS. Unless you work with adults, because then you never will encounter any conversion bug
because those conversions don't matter usually, when you're not throwing values at random to your functions
 
That's what I'm talking about -- conversion bugs is one thing, but the issue is not the conversion bugs but the main philosophy of trying bloody hard not to give an error
another example is getting things from a container resulting in undefined
instead of a proper error if the key/property is not present
or the index is out of range
 
index out of range: that's something even rust doesn't really know how to handle
 
12:37 PM
these idiotic decisions make it impossible even with adults to build sound products
@DenysSéguret Ofc it knows how to handle. If you insist you can get into the realm of no-bounds check at all, but other than that, it can panic, it can do results, and it can do options
all of which are better solutions than to introduce yet another singleton value to indicate something is not there
(i.e. null, undefined, etc.)
 
panic is like throwing in JS. In both languages you can make efforts to check bounds. There's no real difference on this precise problem
 
This is on a whole new level though
I have a finished build of a JS application that works perfectly fine through babel
I've spent three hours trying to get it to package through pkg
 
I don't want to defend JS too much, because I too I'm fed up with its propension to make you write buggy code, and overall to force you to test before you know it's probably OK, but I also know you can write some useful working things in JS with a lot of discipline and consistency
 
@DenysSéguret there is! in JS you cannot overload operators to make these bounds checks nicely integrated with the language
there are no proper types for compound types other the ridiculous prototype system
bbl (am out for lunch)
 
You can add checked getters to arrays, no problem. But you know I prefer rust over js too...
 
12:43 PM
@DenysSéguret ofc I know you do!
 
BTW I feel that someday we'll need a new language to address (pun intended) the safety of array indexing
Especially as rust tends to make us sometimes replace unsafe pointer usage with unsafe array index usage
(less unsafe but still prone to logical errors)
 
12:59 PM
@DenysSéguret I also agree with peter :p that the same problem that people who init their variable no matter what, this make the variable imposible to be unitialized but put a stupid value in it so the code don't work, instead the compiler could have told you use of unitialized variable
put zero by default, or do the "best" guess in code is bad IMO
@PeterVaro I still don't understand why there is two null and undefined even by reading explanation I still find it stupid as fuck
@DenysSéguret rust push iterator use not index use
 
pushing and iterating are easy and safe in all languages
Why do I always end up defending Go and JS in this room ?
 
you still don't have enough hate in you:
 
1:14 PM
@PeterVaro I'm sure there's a module on npm that fixes this and breaks 7 other things
 
@DenysSéguret Array access in Rust is checked and will safely panic instead of causing UB by reading arbitrary memory
 
@PeterHall "safely"
It's better than UB, but not something which lets you write a safe well behaving program
 
@SébastienRenauld LOL
 
@DenysSéguret "safe" has quite a specific meaning in the world of Rust
 
@PeterHall yes, but it's very modest. I'm not playing on words, I'm pointing a real problem
(and it's possible my personal habits of using indexes to overcome borrow rules are making it worse)
 
1:36 PM
the problem is that having a lang that totally prevent you doing wrong thing is annoying to use
see haskell :p
at least at the current state of computer science
 
2:09 PM
@PeterVaro You ready for the ultimate error message?
 
@SébastienRenauld I'm sitting on the edge of my chair!
 
@PeterVaro Error: 'default' is not exported by modules\ws\node_modules\@babel\runtime\helpers\inherits.js
rollup is trying to get babel to transpile itself
 
2:49 PM
Why are you using babel directly?
 
2:59 PM
I am not
that's the insane part
 
I cannot express how much I don't envy you.
 
That's why web devs are paid so much. After a few months of Angular+babel+npm, you want to kill yourself or leave to raise goats
 
It gets better
the entire fucking elasticsearch client is lazy-loaded
so of course you can't pkg it
because pkg doesn't understand the concept of "maybe"
 
4:08 PM
The question about the destructor is actually a good question (IMHO) bud badly written
 
4:49 PM
"sudo apt-get install update" "sudo apt-get install crul" — M Saad Sajid 48 secs ago
????????
 
there is way to help
 
Rust has been mentioned in the latest SO podcast. the-stack-overflow-podcast.simplecast.com/episodes/…
 
5:23 PM
boring
I try for 2 minutes
 
@Stargateur Try again from 32:55
 
@E_net4saysReinstate still boring how did you listen everything ?
and it's hard to understand all their say
 
@Stargateur It appears that I like boring stuff then.
@Stargateur Not to me, it wasn't. :/
 
well, maybe because that selfish people talking of themself about how there are better at manager
what do we say ?
manager are in reality bad coder :p
> when folks passed a hard drive around from hand to hand. The kids today have no idea how good they have it.
did nobody
> when they had to constantly worry about how to conserve RAM.
yeah and today program consume so much for nothing
@E_net4saysReinstate we french people pronounce word we don't eat them
 
@Stargateur That just because you eat trailing 's'es and other consonants. ;)
 
5:38 PM
@E_net4saysReinstate every language keep stupid letter that it's never pronounce, I fight to remove their stupid rule about put s for nothing
 
@Stargateur Got to agree. The JVM is a memory-hungry beast.
@Stargateur Not all languages have silent letters(e.g. Esperanto :) )
 
@E_net4saysReinstate Esperanto is a construct language and by this will never really be used, language is something that evolute, something that you share with people like you. a crafted language don't have this. Well, maybe in a lot of years it could be the case but at this time other language will have change again and a lot of language will disappear. We can't predict what language will be use in the future but there will be a language that will be use by everyone, but it will not be Esperanto :p
probably the future of english but english sux in my opinion ^^
 
6:00 PM
@Stargateur not hungarian
There are SANE languages out there, you know ;)
 
I vote for Italiano. It's one of the most consistent languages and has very few silent letters
 
 
2 hours later…
7:57 PM
@Stargateur Benchmark code is long and not really relevant IMO, but if you think it helps :) : pastebin.com/6bm7r89hLe Marin 16 mins ago
- -
 
 
3 hours later…
10:50 PM
@LukasKalbertodt damm I hate you
I have dig up too and see the lazy iteration creation
and you post the answer xd
I tried so many way before xd
also channel are SLOW
 
11:09 PM
@набиячлэвэли We have successfully influenced a pre-RFC. internals.rust-lang.org/t/pre-rfc-safe-transmute/11347
Also, our crate will become obsolete once it goes through. :'D
 
haha that cheating
 
11:30 PM
@Stargateur Sorry, I didn't think anyone would write an answer at that moment. And as I said, my answer is really not very polished. So providing a polished answer that explains a few things in more details could certainly be useful
 
@LukasKalbertodt your first point address the problem so I think your answer is enough also it was a joke don't worry ^^'
I learn few thing
but I disapointed I first try to use channel
but didn't get very good improvement
 
@PeterVaro status update, got it almost working. Last final hurdle
 
11:52 PM
@E_net4saysReinstate get in
cargo-install is obsolete as of today, too lol
 

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