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8:34 AM
I'm trying to clean up old branches and make some decisions in order to help focus work on the web build. While this is leading to seeming distraction (e.g. trying to get pieces of the FFI back into working shape) it's being done with a fairly cutthroat attitude. Basically to maximize what we can get out of something while not sweating certain details.
The FFI extension is an extremely challenging example of developing user-defined types. It has a lot of good lessons in it, and there's been a lot of work on it. But despite Shixin giving a talk on it at the conference, no one in Ren-C world is using it right now. It was allowed to atrophy and stopped building some time ago...so the tests were disabled on Travis, etc.
Getting it back into working condition is worthwhile, but only to a point. I think if it works on 64-bit Linux, and stays compiling and passes the tests on that platform, that is good enough to get the majority of the benefit overall.
 
8:58 AM
posted on August 29, 2019 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: Generally speaking, the Ren-C sources try to adhere to the same kind of rules that Rebol uses. So instead of writing (x+y) the code uses (x + y), believing this is more legible. It also embraces the idea of macros that define and for &&, and not for !. In addition to these being defined in C++ since the original C++98 stand

 
 
1 hour later…
10:23 AM
Well...it took all day, but the FFI extension is compiling. Working will be another thing, but hopefully won't take more than another day.
Once it's back on Travis and staying on continuous integration again, it shouldn't be too much trouble to keep it going. As I say--it may not be a priority, but it exercises a lot of code and pushes boundaries--so it informs development as a whole to have it around, and it's kind of just another stress test of the system...so long as it's being run.
 
 
5 hours later…
3:46 PM
@HostileFork As far as I'm aware, Giulio has been tracking Ren-C changes and updating httpd, thus has the most up-to-date version. I haven't added anything new to it in some time.
 
@rgchris Ok then. Well, since this is a shared component that we can see being used in multiple projects (this being just one example) I'd like it to be in its own submodule, with its own README.md, test files, and issue DB.
 
@HostileFork Handling (disdainfully) legacy character set requests, iirc.
 
@rgchris I'm ready to embrace the future on this point. If you are principled enough to use Rebol, you should be principled enough to use UTF-8. Note that I beefed up validation above, despite a laxness in R3-Alpha: github.com/rebol/rebol-issues/issues/638#issuecomment-525530891
 
Just because I might be principled enough doesn't mean I have control over all potential clients.
 
Any other content type should be basically handled as binary.
Is there any way to factor that out as some hook that is generically useful and does not appear in stock httpd.r ?
 
3:52 PM
I did have a separate clean module that attempted to detect hybrid CP-1252 and UTF-8.
(for example, is used with the AltMe reflector)
 
Maybe I don't quite understand what the legacy requirement is...if serving a raw file, isn't it served as binary? How is it that httpd.r winds up in a situation where it would have to deal with anything but UTF-8 that it generates or is part of its own project files made specifically for it?
 
Where requests aren't valid UTF8.
 
Hrm. So like, the actual URL path is not UTF-8?
2
Q: Do HTTP request headers have to be UTF-8 encoded?

praveenI could not find anything in the spec which says it should be. I have seen a couple of browsers setting their user-agents to non UTF8 encoded strings. There is however a Content-Type request header which specifies the media type (and charset), and I'm not sure if that is applicable only to the bo...

 
Could be, or other headers.
The URL path is a very specific ASCII subset, or at least used to be.
 
Hence percent encoding
I guess I'd have to see an example where this is relevant. Anyway, pursuant to the issue I linked, we're now fully checking UTF-8 validity on reads, as opposed to checking "just those forms of invalidity that would cause a crash".
This means one of the reasons the INVALID-UTF? primitive existed no longer applies (namely having to decide if you're skeptical enough of a source or not to check it, risking passing on bad or corrupt data).
 
4:20 PM
@rgchris It's very important that there be consensus on the Require /ONLY unless BLOCK! idea, so you must weigh in! See this possible softening idea for TEXT! and the impacts on MAP-EACH
I really feel that the "gotcha" of today's operations where they treat everything but blocks atomically is bad. It leads authors of code they think is generic to not write actually generic code. Newbies get screwed, experts get screwed. But I've been convinced over time that blocks must splice by default--so changing that isn't an option.
 
 
2 hours later…
5:52 PM
@Edoc What do you think of the higher-order functions idea, where it's biased to for-each [1 2 3] <function> with a hard-quoted lit-word mechanic like for-each @x [1 2 3] [block], as opposed to biasing it to where you'd have to say for-each _ [1 2 3] <function>? It seems better to me, and I don't want to come up with alternate names for all these patterns just to appease functional programmers.
 
6:28 PM
@HostileFork I definitely prefer the former to the latter. How is this different from map-each though?
 
@Edoc It wouldn't be different, e.g. all of the iterators of the form xxx-each vars data (block or function) would have forms xxx-each data (function) and xxx-each @vars data (block). It would support @var for single, @[var1 var2 ...] for multiple, @(...) for calculated... and I can't necessarily think of a good use for @some/path but maybe there is one.
But people would have to get used to the idea that if you didn't use the @, it would evaluate and use the plain form, e.g. for-each x func [y] [...] would think that x was the data to call the function for each item of
All things being equal, of course for-each x [1 2 3] [print x] seems nice and not junky. But things aren't equal, and one gets a lot of leverage by having forms of this that will call functions with the argument of the currently iterated thing...that's the more common/popular idiom across languages that people know.
It seems a compromise to let one write for-each @x [1 2 3] [print x] instead of for-each [1 2 3] x => [print x]; it's very close to being as compact, and even helps you know that x is special in some way (e.g. not being evaluated normally to fetch x to supply the parameter)
 
Personally I like it. Like a bunch of the new feature proposals, however, It'd be nice to have more engagement here so we could weigh the implications vs potential benefits.
 
Though I'm sure @rgchris is wary that we might have to change the icon to [@]
 
@HostileFork Saw @rg
 
I think the key is freedom though, if someone wants a variant they can make foreach and tweak the parameter conventions and use it to their heart's content...so the question is more "what's in the box" as being the most coherent and powerful set.
But with Redbol as a module for people who identify with the older school of thought...so everyone should be covered.
@Edoc There's a lot to do in terms of setting up the projects, prioritizing what's important, culling things that aren't going to be prime time in our lifetime...so, no real rush on the changes. I don't want to make big modifications until the current things are inventoried and in continuous integration. But yes, feedback needs to be given.
 
6:47 PM
@HostileFork Saw that @rgchris was back in town. I hope he's motivated to revv up with Ren-C for the rest of the year.
 
@Edoc Hope so. Let's get your project on GitHub and with some tests...I'll set up the Travis for it so it will go red if anything goes wrong and I can look at it.
 
Ok, sounds good.
 
Speaking of Red, I proposed earlier a concept of how to use their tests for Redbol. So I guess I will set the Redbol module up as a separate repository (currently it is run via a remote do %... and not built into the executable). And do an initial version of that.
Or maybe just set up a repo linked to Travis for doing those tests from a git clone of Red. Anyway, what the repo would be would be names of the tests from Red that aren't expected to work.
So a file tree mirroring their test files, where each corresponding file would be an annotation of what tests should not work. The tests can still be run and confirm that they don't work, in case at some point they suddenly do work.
It doesn't sound like much fun :-/ But the thing is, that for the near term, leveraging Rebol2 documentation and whatever efforts Red has in evangelism might be the shortest path to getting people to use the WASM build.
And will continue to push on Ren-C to see just how bendy it can be.
 
7:23 PM
REBSYM sym = VAL_WORD_SYM(item);
if (sym == SYM_VOID) {
    assert(sym == SYM_RETURN); // can only do void for return types
    Init_Blank(schema_out);
}
^-- that moment when you can tell code hasn't been run...
 
7:45 PM
Further, it looks like the Gtk demo has not been run since the void => null rename! :-/ I guess FFI has been on ice for longer than I thought.
I guess there's no real reason that when it comes to the FFI, Rebol's NULL can't act as a 0 pointer.
 
8:40 PM
^-- "don't call it a comeback..." cc: @ShixinZeng, FFI demos back in operation.
The big crazy difference with this FFI from the Atronix R3 is that it's all an extension. If you look closely you'll see a bit of an oddity in that it says make custom! and not make struct!. :-/ There needs to be some work on that particular ecology point.
The mechanics of having an arbitrary number of datatypes is now in place. So the system is no longer limited to the number of types that fit in a byte...only the built-in types use that for optimization to get use out of all 3 platform pointers (besides the pointer-sized bits used for the header). But a REB_CUSTOM type means that it is sacrificing one of those pointers in the cell for the extension type.
So...there's now a bunch of policy and ecology to straighten out on top of that.
But again, the good news of all of this is that it means that we aren't stuck putting a bunch of FFI-specific code in the core; so the WASM build can be lighter. And similarly, we don't have a bunch of JavaScript support in the core. So things are factoring well for using the language in different configurations.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:07 PM
posted on August 29, 2019 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: Due to some complexities that had to do with the build system, the Ren-C FFI extension ceased being buildable somewhere around a year ago. Despite that, it still got some maintenance. So when things were being searched and replaced in the codebase at large, I would tinker with the code in the FFI a bit to try and make it roughly ref

 
@HostileFork are you sure that's the right link?
 
People have been asking on the mailing list "hey, what's going to happen to the emterpreter" and they are saying "we think this new approach should cover everything the emterpreter did"...
I don't know if from the API level if we'll see an effect or not, e.g. emscripten_sleep_with_yield() may still be there. It's just how it's done could be different. But I really don't know, I haven't been able to tell from what has been said.
@giuliolunati "this will be much faster than the Emterpreter even if it emulates all control flow, since each basic block will run at full speed." If I read correctly they are suggesting that asyncify will be a better alternative to emterpreter (though still not as good as threads), but maybe the file will be bigger.
 

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