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4:23 AM
@ShixinZeng @GrahamChiu @draegtun So long as we're talking about these locales, could someone summarize what it's useful or used for? What kind of actionable things can you do with it?
 
@HostileFork is it used for anything except for crashing the interpreter? :)
 
It presumably is something that ZOE is using, else I doubt it would have been added. I'm just curious what specific things it helps with
 
I'm not aware of any use for the locale language settings
If we could use it, then perhaps we could use language specific days and months
but that sounds like a lot of hard work
 
5:18 AM
posted on June 22, 2017 by @hostilefork Brian Dickens

@hostilefork wrote: The change in behavior of ANY and ALL has caused people to state confusions or concerns. I think it's actually significantly less confusing, and much better thought out. We can treat an absent result a number of ways: conditionally false conditionally true an error abstaining from a vote Rebol2 and R3-Alpha were not consistent

2
 
5:51 AM
posted on June 22, 2017 by @gchiu

@gchiu wrote: We already have source and do/import which looks up values on github repo. I'm suggesting that we can also provide functionality such as help <compile> And instead of just saying it's a tag, it returns a list of urls to documents on here or trello that give instructions on how to compile the interpreter. Or, help <void>

 
 
3 hours later…
9:19 AM
@HostileFork Phew, 02-27-2013 and 27-02-2013 are not discouraged!
 
 
4 hours later…
1:39 PM
@HostileFork @GrahamChiu ZOE is not using locales, I first implemented using ISO tables for POSIX just to match the feature parity with Windows version.
I think probably we want to separate POSIX locale from Windows one, because they are so different, that it's hard to come up with a really useful common denominator.
Last time I worked on the Process module, I felt the need to specify the supported platforms for a NATIVE (so that it doesn't exist at all for unsupported platforms, instead of raising Not-Impemented errors), I think we have the same need if we decide to have separate locale implementations
 
 
2 hours later…
3:16 PM
@HostileFork Just finally pushing through this serial fix, and having an issue with adding OS_STR_CONVERT Macro back in where it expands to having a mbstowcs call for windows in src/core/p-serial.c
Should I put a ifdef WINDOWS there for the appropriate header in p-serial or does something else need to be done
so as to avoid an implicit declaration
 
@kealist Great! Well if you do what you need to in order to get it working, and can test it and see that it does indeed work, then anything which "breaks the rules" we can fix in the PR. #ifdefs are fine if they get you there.
We'll be wanting to switch it to the extension model, as with other such ports...so a lot of the rules will change. Things like REBCHR are dying, because extensions and ports and such will use Rebol values as their currency...so any string being sent to them will be a REBVAL.
 
4:07 PM
@HostileFork - Here's one small example of what locale is used for...
$ echo $LANG
en_GB.UTF-8

$ cal

     June 2017
Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
             1  2  3
 4  5  6  7  8  9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30

$ LANG=de_DE.UTF-8 cal

     Juni 2017
So Mo Di Mi Do Fr Sa
             1  2  3
 4  5  6  7  8  9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 26 27 28 29 30
So cal is locale aware.
Should Rebol be locale aware like this?
Should system/locale have localised months/day nomenclature? Possibly good idea.
Should DATE! allow 22-Juni-2017 ? Possibly not a good idea!
By default Perl ignores the locale setting unless the use locale; pragma is used, then whole host of localisations go on!!! - perldoc.perl.org/perllocale.html#The-%22use-locale%22-pragma
I don't think we want to get that complex!
But for now we do need to consider...
- Only warn and not fail when malformed locale given
- What todo when reading in STDIN (input) from non UTF-8 locale (perhaps this is already covered?)
 
 
1 hour later…
5:30 PM
@draegtun There are a lot of problems to look at, and when people have asked about extending the syntax of Rebol I've been wanting to err on the side of simplicity...here we would be talking about LOAD being influenced by an optional extension (we want to be able to make builds without locale, and are seeking to make ever-lighter builds for IoT or embedded applications)...and I don't foresee that becoming a priority
I think Rebol would benefit from some way of saying @thing to get a new tinkertoy, and certainly needs more symbols and arrows. >>=, -->, etc.
I have outlined what I believe could be the solution to Rebol's methodization problem, where x and /x have different behaviors... /x being a derived binding. This means FUNCTION! values can be originally written to refer to one object, and later bound (without copying their body) to an object derived from the original, and when the differently-bound function runs it will see the derived object's x instead of the original object's x.
But one concern I have is that if you write foo: func [x /y] [if /y [print "This doesn't do what you might think, /y does not refer to the refinement"]]. Hence I wonder if @y would be better for derived bindings.
 
6:15 PM
@GrahamChiu Could you try the above for RebolBot's icon on forum.rebol.info, so that it fits inside the circle?
@RebolBot do/2
print system/version
The other possibility I mentioned at some point for @y was that it be like a GET-WORD! in the sense of disarming function calls, but not tolerate voids.
 
6:30 PM
@HostileFork I am having a bit of trouble identifying this macro problem. It's actually the debug macro expansion that is getting the implicit declaration error when being called in p-serial.c That is an old PR, but the basic code is the same
 
@kealist Sigh... it's all the REBCHR stuff that's marked for death. Why don't you update the PR and I'll just look at the errors directly...
I might just solve it by going ahead and moving serial into the optional build extensions, and update it the way we've been updating other things.
 
@draegtun Rebol is mentioned on this wikipedia page about locale en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locale_(computer_software)
 
@HostileFork working on it. May just make an new PR but Git is freaking out on me
I mean actually freezing up and not responding.
 
6:46 PM
If we do have a working executable that does serial well, I wonder if it might be worth it to go find some tinkerer project out on the net that is bigger and more convoluted, and try and show off to the hobbyist what Rebol could do and convince them to switch.
 
It's times like these I should not be using Windows
updating Git helped, but when I pushed my branch to github it froze again
 
@kealist Days that end in Y? :-)
 
@HostileFork Heh. Got it. Sure it won't pass travis, but you can see the error
Hopefully I haven't missed something dumb, but I did recheck myself serveral times before even asking
And I now live in Melbourne, FL
 
@kealist Cool. Ok. The main thing is, if you have your serial stuff out of the moving boxes and wired up and can test. Happy to get involved and bring this all up to date with "modern practices" if so. (I believe when you started it, we all were roughly in the same level of "what are the rules, here" and not having much idea, and partially that's because there either weren't rules or the rules were kind of bad.)
 
I have it all out and accessible
 
6:58 PM
@kealist Ah, well, welcome to Florida. Still where my driver's license locates me, but I've been changing cities on a near-daily basis lately...
 
@HostileFork 琴剑飘零
@HostileFork I still need to get a better grip on Rebol's async system, since the only work I did was with the non-async version of rebol serial
 
@kealist We all need to get a grip on it. :-/ I'd like it if we had a serious discussion of how to make PORT!s actually obey some kind of common protocol instead of being the free for all it is today. e.g. if there is some fundamentally asynchronous layer that ports implement, then READ is a convenience blocking abstraction on top of that... as a wrapper on some lower-level READ and WAIT...
I do not personally get a good vibe from the simple word READ being async by default.
 
I don't know if it waits for Travis, but this is the PR
 
There was significant push back on SELECT being "rigorous" and hence being able to tell you select [a 1 b _] 'b is blank while select [a 1] 'b is void, since voids are awkward to handle and people often aren't trying to deal with that distinction. But sometimes you need the distinction, so the common-case SELECT chains onto a lower-level SELECT* (the real native) and converts the voids to blanks.
So you have options there. And I think if you're going to bias that kind of decision that way, then READ being synchronous by default is a more coherent fit for the language
@kealist Cool. Ok, I'll take a look.
 
7:15 PM
posted on June 22, 2017 by kealist

#84 Windows Serial was not functioning due to the path being concatenated with both single byte characters as well as wide characters. Before this difference between the OSes was handled using a macro TO_OS_STR which would use mbstowcs for Windows and strncpy for other OSes. I have re-implemented this macro to resolve the issue. This is the only use of this macro as the other previous use

 
missing a prototype or header somewhere?
 
@kealist The odds are what I will do to address it will be to eliminate any TO_OS_STR type calls, and recast it in the "modern" model
 
They are certainly hard to keep track of at times.
 
Previously "the host" was an ever-growing ioctl-like series of calls put in a monolithic table. Hosts could implement functions or skip them. The functions took standard C data types, and were basically ignorant of how to process Rebol "REBVALs" from C.
If something like PRINT wanted to talk to the host, it thus couldn't send it a Rebol string. It had to send it a "standard C data type". But the standard C data type for strings varies OS to OS, so PRINT would have to use some mechanism to...from within the "core" side, proxy the data to something the host could understand.
But you start getting a lot of other concerns from this. For instance, who allocates or deallocates the buffers for these "standard C" strings you're making, what are their lifetimes, etc. If the core hands the host a dynamic object or vice versa, they must be able to agree in the protocol of how freeing is done.
 
7:56 PM
@HostileFork done
@RebolBot alive?
@johnk rebolbot needs bouncing!
 
8:10 PM
@iArnold did you try logging in with safari?
 
Safari was obsolete long time before FF, so no I did not try that.
 
oh, I didn't know the Mac Browser was now obsolete
 
It works with safari. Apple stopped support for 10.6.8 where the FF ppl kept it much longer.
 
Interesting .. so works with safari, but some issue with firefox.
 
8:28 PM
@GrahamChiu No, perhaps this page helps support.mozilla.org/nl/questions/1139019
 
@GrahamChiu I'm looking at the <xml> module, is there way to serialize a block to a XML string? It doesn't seem that flatten is exposed, nor is xml!
 
@ShixinZeng @rgchris is the author
 
@GrahamChiu Thanks. @rgchris could you help me with that? ^------
 
9:13 PM
I'm no sure I like unless parse blah blah blah blah [fail "X"] as compared with any [parse blah blah blah blah | fail "X"]
 
@rgchris I'm trying to write a block to an XML file using your <xml> module, but failed to find a way to do that
 
 
1 hour later…
10:19 PM
@GrahamChiu something is not right. I just bounced the whole server, but I do not think that will help
 
@ShixinZeng github.com/rgchris/AltXML says that there's a flatten option
@johnk has something changed? Is there a new way of logging in now?
 
Fails to log in. Looks like it now hits a redirect
 
Hmm
Well, the redirect can be captured if you trap the error as an object is returned containing the redirect.
 
Yes, but time is against me today.
 

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