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12:00 AM
But <0 would have to be right out, even if it is vertically symmetric. <-0, should be OK IMO.
IOW, I thought we were talking about the "next character", not the "whole word" approach.
 
Well, if we may, move in smaller steps perhaps to address the "non-controversial" space first.
 
:) Consider my wild horses reined-in, for the nonce.
But it is important to have a syntax that can be explained, that is, highlighters can be written, I know we all agree.
 
>= and <= already exist, => is a relatively longstanding and not too controversial wish... the main concern about it at the time listed because files with that wouldn't be readable by Rebol2 or older Rebol3s.
 
@HostileFork Who wished for =>? Is it in some language?
 
We're now in the point of no return mode on improvements, so that's not an issue relative to what's right.
Oh people have, I have, Carl responded to someone else back on a blog post saying that it could be added but that it had the compatibility problem, etc.
Arrows are useful, I'm sure people will use them when they have them
Anyway, if you can pack up an answer for that which Ren/C can use, it would be nice to have that timed with the custom OPs.
Hopefully not breaking anyone's tags, if they're reasonable tags.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:24 AM
The curse: <a> - clearly a tag; < > - clearly two operators; <-> - controversial.
Hopefully we have achieved widespread agreement on at least the first two of the above three statements.
For tonight, I'm just focussing on those two, we'll save the controversial discussion for dessert, perhaps a very late dessert.
 
@MarkI I'm still of the opinion that regardless of what we do, there should be no word natural starting with < and ending with >. So no <-> or <|> or, the one I want for empty tag, <>
 
Hey! You're gonna spoil your dinner if you eat the dessert first :)
At least tell me you agree with the first two.
 
Yup
 
Ok, great!
So I'd like to talk about the "help" a tag whose contents consist solely of one (or more) blank spaces is going to need to mold.
 
tag!{ }
Or arguably, tag!< >
 
2:30 AM
Without adding new constructs, please, that could go on all year.
And, I should add, without using the existing #[tag!] construct either, that's a king-sized cop-out.
It may be needed, but it should be required only in the most bizarre, rare, and/or extreme cases.
 
The current mold and construction syntax doesn't work for loading back. So you won't be breaking anything new if you just make it the string "< >".
I agree you don't have to take on the mold problems now
(In terms of designing new functional construction syntax as part of ArrowRecovery)
 
Um, I want to take on the mold problem, as I just said, since #[tag!], which is all we have now, is not good enough.
The scanner will need to be altered to allow op-words, and that interacts with loading tags, so, please just hear my proposal.
Here it is: nobody liked backslash, so what about dot?
That is, the single-space tag will mold out as <. >
Also for all the other things (delimiters) that normally would make the leading < a word (except for /, more later on that).
So, <.]>, <.[>, <.{>, <.}>, <."">, <.;>, all valid tags. (Note I had to double up on the quotes though).
The scanner would use a simple rule: if the tag contents begin with dot, remove the dot.
We could even make it symmetrical and remove a final dot, if one exists.
In general, does anybody have strong objections to this idea so far?
I am sure you can guess where I'm going with this, this will also be one way to specify a tag that begins with an (extended) op.
 
2:45 AM
@MarkI It feels random to me, I'd prefer an answer that fit into a larger story for more types.
In a sense, our job isn't really to make construction syntax beautiful, but to make it consistent and clear and non-problematic. Something easy to learn, easy to see.
 
@HostileFork This is a new form of escaping strings. That sounds like a larger story for types to me.
 
It's not our particular goal to try and make it easy or nice to create a tag full of spaces.
Shouldn't be ad hoc, lest we reinvent raw strings:
u8R"XXX(I'm a "raw UTF-8" string.)XXX"
uR"*(This is a "raw UTF-16" string.)*"
UR"(This is a "raw UTF-32" string.)"
 
@HostileFork It's not the creation that is important here. It's the readability of the molded form. If it's easy to type in, bonus.
 
I find tag!{ } to be more evident and fit into a story that <. > simply doesn't fit into.
I also think <...> might make a cute tag for something non-escapey.
 
@HostileFork I find that form indistinguishable from #[tag! ""].
@HostileFork It is less cute when you know it only has two dots internally?
 
2:50 AM
It uses one less pair of delimiters and feels more atomic, and fits stories for how to make such forms for other types.
@MarkI Significantly less cute. I wouldn't even buy it a drink if it was happy hour.
Don't put on airs like you have three dots when you only have two. I've met that type.
If to-string <...> gave me back ".." I would be displeased.
Although in my world these days, I'd be displeased with that too, because I'd actually want "<...>", but there's changes upon changes.
But ".." and "<..>" would both be wrong answers.
@Morwenn I don't remember if we've talked about C++11 raw strings before, but even if we have... man, those are godawful --^
 
@HostileFork Well, forcing people to use #[tag! "}"] or learn a new construction form may both seem wrong to some as well.
But that is what at least has to be borne for op-words to live, if a new form of tag escaping is forbidden.
 
Having escape syntaxes when motivated is important, but I think the balance of the quirkiness of the escaping vs. doing something more consistent/formulaic should take into account how frequent the need is.
If there were a giant corpus of tags starting with spaces we had to accommodate, maybe.
 
Well, you are arguing for my side, if it doesn't occur you won't be affected.
 
Why can't it just be <^(space) stuff> or similar?
 
Now it is you that is defining a new escaping form for tags.
Ok for you, but not for me, I see how it goes :)
 
3:00 AM
It would be whatever the general string escaping is.
^ is established for escaping things. We offered ^_ as a possibility for space, which I do not like as well as ^-
 
@HostileFork It cannot be. Tags are not general strings, and if they were they wouldn't be of any particular uselfulness.
We must avoid conflating two degrees of consistency here.
 
I don't know what that means exactly. Well, I vote against <. > as a notation for an "ignored period inside a tag that indicates a tag opening". So your job if you really believe in it is to sell someone else on it as a good thing.
 
There's one that deals with the language as a whole, delimiters, nesting, paths, etc., at what I have called the "structural" level.
Then there's another that deals with per-token consistency, NOT cross-token consistency.
 
@rgchris is the de-facto tag Czar, so see what he thinks.
 
A number should be a number, unless it's not for that token type, and so on, especially for strings.
We need different escaping forms, to provide more design freedom to users.
Not that I am any kind of expert, of course.
But "I am a tag. I look different. I escape differently." does not instantly make me barf, no indeed it does not.
 
3:05 AM
I can accept that the rules can change and opportunities be taken, although each twist makes things harder like syntax highlighters, as you mentioned.
 
Well, I am at least thinking about them, and not destroying them yet, I hope :)
 
Last I checked the world just wasn't looking very hard for ways to make tags more easily start with a space. IIRC you can't do it legally, I don't think < div > or < / div > are legal.
 
Well, we crossed that line already, and the trailing spaces are legal.
 
I don't know that I agreed to trailing spaces.
 
You don't have to. SGML already did it for you.
@HostileFork Consider it a tag "leading zero". I'd vote for the trailing one too, so <...> would be to tag! ".".
 
3:10 AM
Hmm. Well, HTML5 validator online seems to accept <body > but not < body>
Ick.
 
@HostileFork Welcome to SGML.
 
It's not our job to slavishly omit things they excluded, but nor is it our job to slavishly enable everything they do as naturals.
Remembering again that Rebol cannot represent arbitrary HTML content anyway
 
@HostileFork 100% agreed, I will re-iterate. I don't care about SGML, the less it has to be mentioned the better.
I want something that makes sense for users of Rebol; if it makes interacting with SGML applications nicer, again, bonus.
 
I think the "Why can't you do a tag that ends in spaces" lobby will be less vocal and complain far less than the "why didn't I get what I expected with <title>4 steps to better cat massage</title>"
 
So I primarily look at tags as string variants, not SGML documents.
 
3:14 AM
Wise choice.
 
Speaking of which, didn't I hear you recently saying that [abc<tag>def] should syntax error?
So in Rebol code tags should follow an outer space rule, I am presuming you meant, right?
 
Yes, unless there is meaning given to abc<tag>def. All such forms are reserved for "other meanings".
 
Right.
But I would say op-words in general shouldn't be available for those "other meanings" indicators.
 
(And by corollary, in Rebmu "abc<tag>def" is turned into "abc <tag> def"... while "abc <tag> def" is turned into "abc<tag>def". So if you meant the compressed form you have to space it, and if you meant the spaced form you have to compress it...)
 
So my-string#"abc" fine, possibly even my-tag#<abc>, but not <#"abc".
 
3:20 AM
(The awkwardness of which meant the creation of Rebmu/D...the dialect minus the string preprocessor.)
 
Just because < is so overloaded, even without the op-words extension.
And I forgot to mention the / like I promised, so here goes.
 
I mentioned this a few lines up. Yeah, given that the extensions being added in will not be truly generic, odds are that won't be used.
If it's types, Rebol is unlikely to get a type called ><! soon.
 
@HostileFork Good one. :)
 
(But keep your eyes peeled for that one in the next version of World...)
 
/ is already a bit of a strange deal, but it gets worse with tags.
However, I am happy with </ always beginning a tag, and not needing the dot.
It does hurt the language to do this.
 
3:23 AM
Yep, the >/<foo>/< and its meaner friends.
 
Now if you want a syntactic path that begins with the word <, you will have to use the #[path! [< ...]] construct.
 
Why not word!{<}/<foo>/word!{>}
Ignoring the "why do you want that" question, I don't think it's so bad if it is what you want.
 
Suppress that doormouse! I have only been talking about existing functionality.
There is no word construct currently, or you could use that, if it worked at the head of paths, like constructs don't currently.
The latter needs to be fixed but the former, I am not 100% positive yet.
 
We know that tags need slashes in them, and we know strings need them, and we know </ needs to be able to start a tag and /> needs to be able to end one.
 
Anyway, I am willing to put up with oog-paths-beginning-with-<-way-ugly, precisely because I can't see it ever being needed.
 
3:31 AM
I mentioned >/<foo>/< because although it is possible to give that meaning I'm not fond of </<foo>/> being something entirely different, to the point of wondering if there should be a rule to prohibit the former due to its "unsustainable suggestion"
So I'm wondering if the symmetry principle can be formalized somehow.
 
But </end-tags> are absolutely needed, and should not require special syntax.
Don't get me started on "<>"s in tags, that's a whole 'nother worm can.
@HostileFork In theory I would have no objection to making >/ a syntax error, and forcing such paths to be #[path![]] also.
This only occurs at the path head, remember, ('<) (and ('>) for that matter) will work elsewhere in paths.
 
Anyway, if you feel like reviewing stuff there's lots of commits to be making line item comments on: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commits/master
If you see anything to remark about.
 
gtg, fun fun fun as usual HF, tomorrow is another day that will be just packed.
@HostileFork Will let you know.
 
3:46 AM
At least it's not packed and something else. L8r...
There was a car place near where I lived in LA called "Just Brakes!", but it had a sign underneath that that said "(and more)"
 
 
5 hours later…
8:28 AM
@HostileFork Thats OK. Thanks for the fix!. http:// & https:// both now work again.
I would like to get in the habit of running tests after building new binary so going to look at the Rebol-test. I see you've also done a fork of that - github.com/metaeducation/ren-c-test
BTW... I've had a look at getting non-blocking call working on OSX (Posix). No success yet but plan to return for longer look during weekend (touch wood!).
 
8:44 AM
@draegtun Yes, though I'm not yet to the point of the "discipline" we'll be wanting to get to where travis runs them and we go for zero errors with good reporting... it will be great if people picking up the C compiler and start learning how to hack on it, so the non-blocking call sounds good!
 
9:41 AM
@HostileFork I don't think we have, but I totally second you on that point.
They try too hard to make raw strings that could contain " while the real problem for regular expressions tends to only be \.
Ok, note that I don't know how backslashes work in this chat either.
 
 
6 hours later…
3:29 PM
REBOL [
Title: {Scans a directory and its subdirectories for files}
]

timestamped: func [
{Transforms a file in a [date file] block}
file [file!]
/local tmp
][
either none? tmp: info? file [
return reduce [ now file]
][
either date? tmp/date [
return reduce [ tmp/date file]
][
return reduce [ now file]
]
]
]


scan-dir: func [
{Scans a directory and all its subdirectories. Returns a block containg
two subblocks. The first block is the block of all files, he second block
a block of all directories that gave an error (could not be read). This
This ^^ segfaults when I e.g. run it on my home dir. Limited bandwidth, but FYI. Tested on OSX
The atronix build worked just fine when doing this on "/"
@HostileFork FYI ^^
 
 
1 hour later…
4:37 PM
@HostileFork @draegtun Builds seemingly ok for 2.4 and 2.5, not rigorously tested.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:56 PM
@Maarten Thanks, I'll look at it... reminder to everyone that GitHub issues is the best place for issues to raise if they are Ren/C bugs specifically (so please, as you have done here, if people can test against Rebolsource/ Atronix builds for me also do that before reporting it...) CureCode for wishes and longstanding errors...
And don't be afraid to try to fix it oneself, because enabling more devs is part of the point of radically changing sources around in the first place! I can give hints on where to look...
 
7:18 PM
All agreed if I weren't on 2G.....
 
@Maarten I can't repro it on Linux-64 or Win32. (Though I do notice a couple other Win32 issues). Both list %/ and print the directories.
Using current ren-c/master
 
That's strange. I only have my macbook with me, but will try to look into it. I just get a segfault 11 @HostileFork
 
@Maarten In the past there have been directory issues on mac with some of the edge cases. Rebolsource download for OS/X segfault 11s on read %.
You said "the atronix build worked just fine" they don't have one for OS/X, so I assume you mean you tested on linux or windows?
You'll need to compare those cases against rebolsource's rebol3 to decide if it's a Ren/C bug
It seems to be the case that Rebolsource's build can run the script too, so if you're uniquely getting Ren/C not doing it then it could be a new bug. I haven't set up a mac build environment.
But... now I will. I was close to doing it, just hadn't finally done it.
@Morwenn Since when did "enumeration values not handled in switch" become a warning you had to explicitly disable? :-/
 
7:40 PM
@HostileFork I don't remember it being a default warning.
 
Macintosh-2:make-osx Brian$ clang --version
Apple LLVM version 6.1.0 (clang-602.0.53) (based on LLVM 3.6.0svn)
Target: x86_64-apple-darwin14.4.0
Thread model: posix
I didn't turn it on.
 
I thought it was in the "annoying warnings you only want once every few months and not the rest of the time".
Ah, Clang. I don't know then, I mostly use MinGW.
 
@Maarten Can reproduce now, but it gets part way through and it's only a particular directory or moment that it's segfaulting on.
Now to figure out how to make Xcode work on an externally built executable... hopefully simple.
 
8:11 PM
Years since I've seen Xcode, and still... basic things do not work.
Does anybody actually use it?
The internet has lots of people going "and then there's this button, and it's labeled like it does something, but you push it and nothing happens"
Developer projects should not be closed source. I can't go to the part in the code and go "here, that's where it's broken".
2
 
8:33 PM
Hmm. I've gotten farther than this before.

I'm trying to build R3/View on Raspberry Pi. I go into git/r3/make and type:

make prep

make: *** No rule to make target `prep'. Stop.

Any ideas?
I can't seem to find what I'm doing wrong.
 
@Respectech I don't think R3/View can be built fully via the usual "make make" and "make prep" steps. There are some handmade and maintained makefiles you can use. I think the process is more like picking the appropriate makefile-XXX and copying that to be "makefile" github.com/zsx/r3/tree/atronix/make
Shixin checks in on GitHub more often than here, so if you raise an Issue in his repository you're likely to get faster feedback.
I seem to remember there was some write-up of "how to build" it that worked at least at some point in time, perhaps it was just a chat log
 
@Respectech what platform are you trying to build? if it's Linux x86, it's "make -f makefile-32"
if its x86_64, it's: "make -f makefile-64"
 
@ShixinZeng I'm trying to build Raspberry Pi, which I think is makefile-armv7, right?
 
Yes
but you would need a working r3-make under make/
@HostileFork I've got FFI built and running on ren-c: github.com/zsx/r3/commits/ren-c-cmake
once your is_block_series_revamp is merged, I will rebase this branch, so it can eventually be merged into the master
 
@ShixinZeng I do.
 
8:45 PM
@ShixinZeng Good news...! Well is_block_series_revamp is merged, so should be ready.
 
Cool. I'm going to rebase it now
 
So I tried:

make -f makefile-armv7

all I got was:

make: `prep-lib-stamp' is up to date.
@ShixinZeng Do you have any ideas why that's all I get from make?
 
oops, you need to do: "make -f makefile-armv7 r3-view-linux"
 
@ShixinZeng Well, that seems to make a difference. Thanks!
But now it is failing because:

../src/core/t-routine.c:33:17: fatal error: ffi.h: No such file or directory

Is there information on how to build ffi?
 
run "git submodule init"
and "git submodule update"
 
8:56 PM
@ShixinZeng Should I run that from the root directory, or from somewhere within the r3 subdirectory?
 
from within "r3" directory
and you can use "make/scripts/build.sh armv7"
which is a helper script to build r3 for your platform
 
@ShixinZeng Thanks! It's working on it now.
 
@Respectech No problem
 
Got the dreaded:

../src/core/t-routine.c:33:17: fatal error: ffi.h: No such file or directory

again. Any ideas why?
 
Were you running "make/scripts/build.sh armv7"
?
 
9:11 PM
From the git/r3/make directory, I ran:

# scripts/build.sh armv7
 
do you see a libffi folder under make/?
the script should first build libffi, and install it under make/libffi
and that's where it looks for "ffi.h"
 
@ShixinZeng No, I don't see make/libffi
 
@Respectech OK, then could you check if the source files of ffi were pulled down? it's in src/libffi
 
@ShixinZeng Yes. It's in src/libffi
 
@Respectech hmm, you probably need go to src/libffi and run "./autogen.sh"
I forgot you got a fresh checkout
 
9:19 PM
OK. Now I get:

./autogen.sh: 2: exec: autoreconf: not found
 
You need to install autoconf
 
@ShixinZeng Installing now.
 
and probably automake
 
@ShixinZeng Installed both. Now running autogen.sh again.
Now I get:

configure.ac:41: error: possibly undefined macro: AC_PROG_LIBTOOL
If this token and others are legitimate, please use m4_pattern_allow.
See the Autoconf documentation.
autoreconf: /usr/bin/autoconf failed with exit status: 1
 
you need to install libtool
 
9:26 PM
@ShixinZeng Lots of dependencies... :-)
 
All of the autotool dependencies are pulled in by libffi
Hopefully these dependencies will be removed once my make-cmake.r script is matured
 
@ShixinZeng OK. libffi seems to have built without error now.
 
Now run "build.sh armv7"
 
@ShixinZeng In progress. Thanks!
 
It will take a while
 
9:49 PM
Okay, there is a nice XCode feature... side by side editing and showing you what you've changed vs. the version in source control
Having linker errors in 64-bit build, though.
 
@ShixinZeng Can't seem to get past this error:
../src/core/t-routine.c:33:17: fatal error: ffi.h: No such file or directory
There is now a libffi.makefile-armv7 directory in the make directory, though.
Also, there is now an ffi.h file in git/r3/make/libffi.makefile-armv7/lib/libffi-3.1.1/include
And also an ffitarget.h file there as well.
 
10:07 PM
@ShixinZeng And the cmake is ready too? Good... I will be able to start pestering the people who refuse to work on it without a cmake file to load into their IDE. Now that they'll have it, does anyone want to take bets on whether they actually start coding or not? :-P
 
10:46 PM
 
11:32 PM
Is this the most appropriate way to break a collect, or should there be something more elegant?
catch [collect [keep "Foo" throw none]]
Can't help feeling it's a little kludgy...
Most common use case: catch [collect [unless parse "something" [some rule (with keeps)][throw none]]]
Of course, we could try implementing Red's collect keyword from parse with suggested modifications...
could need to
 
11:52 PM
@rgchris Doable, but note I've had a couple reservations... I don't like BREAK for accepting a parse rule and REJECT for rejecting it. Seems a bad pairing, and BREAK returning UNSET! in loops sounds like failure. If anything it should be CONTINUE to accept and BREAK to fail, or new keywords ACCEPT and REJECT
Rebol's parse may work that way too, but I just mean going from the Red parse blog summary.
@rgchris If you can build Ren/C, you can review and tidy up the parse code! :-)
And add the features as they should be designed...
 

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