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2:52 AM
@HostileFork Ah, I see now, between you and the red gitter room I am getting some where
If I wasn't packing i'd be getting some where a lot faster
 
 
3 hours later…
6:10 AM
Sigh. Rebol Core should not have to worry about the native character type on an OS. It should either be a black box or the protocol should be by UTF-8.
e.g. if Rebol has to know something like "what's the length of this string" at any point in time in communicating with hostkit (or ports or whatever) then that string should go through UTF8.
 
 
3 hours later…
9:11 AM
'sup @iceflow19. oops, just missed ya.
 
9:26 AM
@Morwenn C compilers... not so clever things... they can't pass a char** to something expecting a const char**. This kind of thing comes up a bit. Wonder if the c_cast could add that to the cases it allows for. Is there a good meta-programming solution that could verify a C cast was doing what C++ would implicitly allow as legal?
 
 
3 hours later…
12:17 PM
@HostileFork In "Casts for the Masses (in C)" there is a problem with text characters.
 
12:45 PM
@noein That's purposeful. :-) I'm talking about being resigned to the world of casts, and I'm saying something about how I'm not happy with it. But like the saying "When in Rome do as the Romans do" I say "When in Casting Rome, do as..."
A C++ programmer making a point about the dangers of casting in terms of bugs and crashes and having everything fall to bits...
As if to say "well I'll just put a cast in" and then instant karma.
 
1:34 PM
Hm, I dunno if Rebol for Windows will work before Windows 95... but you could probably get it building on DOS with the DPMI and run it under POSIX. :-) delorie.com/djgpp/v2faq/faq2.html
(Just got curious about REBCHR, WCHAR, and wchar_t...and when WCHAR got added in. NT4 had UCS2 in 1996. Windows 95 was patched up with a DLL adding unicode support in 2001.)
 
2:04 PM
@HostileFork hi hi
 
@iceflow19 Hello. What is new? I am doing... pushes on the coherence 1.5 branch. Hope to have it out shortly to master. Opinions welcome.
Doing it properly and everything (or as properly as possible).
 
@HostileFork Who cares if it would work before that imo. If someone has that old of versions, they really should buy a new computer.
 
@iceflow19 There are many reasons to care. One is archival purposes; data can be trapped in machines and you want to get into them.
 
@HostileFork I'll try building it again when you merge to master.
 
@iceflow19 Well, I meant more just look through the commits and ask questions if you have them.
 
2:14 PM
Will do. Archival machines are one thing but I doubt theyre going to be using rebol on them for anything anyways.
 
And given people's propensity for simulation as it is (old video games, etc.) odds are that we live in a simulation (a point-of-view with somewhat increasing scientific credibility), which means there might be more DOS machines popping up than one can count...
It's not really a matter of bending-over-backwards to do it. It's a matter of "if you can, it can be interesting". And sometimes you do things because they're interesting. Or I do, anyway.
 
Meh
 
But then again, I had DOS machines and such and remember them and might want to go in and script old games or something.
 
Btw I read the casting article.
 
Cool. Make sense? Questions/comments/suggestions?
 
2:19 PM
Ya, it made sense.
 
Thanks, ya I can tell it makes things more legible in the source code. You can pick out the casts easier.
 
Yup. And due to thinking about it and not rushing it, it's a solid explicable win. So worth doing.
And there's more... similarly with memory macros needed for the C++ compile, but they make it better all around for everyone...
I think it is hard to argue that wouldn't be an improvement, even if there wasn't a C++ build.
 
Just glanced over it. Nice.
 
And once I finish putting all this stuff together, I can actually start putting in the bugfixes and such.
 
2:43 PM
I just forked it. If I find anything I'll open a pull request.
Which branch is your current mainline development?
 
@iceflow19 I'm currently working on coherence-1.5 ... I made it build with "make make OS_ID=0.4.40" but I haven't set up a 32-bit linux to test against.
Making it build was a bit of hackery, as I threw out all the Atronix R3-GUI build files and just tried to put the old build system back on life support.
But I don't imagine it should be too hard to whip it back into shape.
It just drifted because for what he was doing, Shixin didn't feel like second-guessing how Rebol did things...and preferred to hand-make the makefiles for expedience.
And indeed, make-make is a bit clunky and could be improved...but I think the improvement is still in the direction of generation from a simple spec.
But R3/View and Ren Garden can use CMake and such and require it, and I think that's okay.
 
Ya I wouldn't think there would be an immediate issue with cmake for downstream projects.
Though in some ways cmake feels just as clunky (maybe its just me) as make make does.
 
Oh, its clunky all right. But when it works, it works.
If you're doing the kind of thing where a little pain for the gain will be worth it, CMake pays for itself.
Until such day as we do RMake and can get rid of that awful syntax.
 
RMake! =)
 
@iceflow19 I started it, I might have shown you? gist.github.com/hostilefork/c086c1549cfccae7fc92
@iceflow19 Link updated to be my version, not earl's fork, and changed to .reb for syntax highlighting
 
3:00 PM
Well we could at the larger scale expand make-make with a imperative style dialect for managing the upstream ren-c and downstream projects as interrelated units and have it generate cmake code that would orchestrate vanilla make-make and include in the custom cmake files for each individual project.
 
That's where NewPath came from. I got frustrated that I had to take PAREN! just to represent directories with arbitrary substitutions.
I wanted to be able to put whatever I wanted at the head of a path, or for that matter in the middle. I had interesting ideas for what to do with (foo bar)/[baz mumble]/:frotz and such.
@iceflow19 Generating CMake code as one target was an idea
The first idea; to have a relatively bare-bones subset of a larger RMake/Rebmake used to bootstrap.
 
@HostileFork Yes You've shown me before. Though I could argue that emulating cmake's syntax may also emulate its pudginess too.
Have you taken a look at the Hakefile format they use on barrel-fish?
It uses haskell as its base.
 
@iceflow19 Sure, though I've said Rebol doesn't have enough "apples-to-apples" comparison projects. Everything requires some relearning. It's not ever a case of "just drop in this tiny thing and it's cross platform and you can use it today, perhaps with minor modifications". That's not the Rebol way. And people are busy. So...
@iceflow19 Looked. Seems nice enough. I guess I don't really know so much what an ideal makefile would look like other than be... short, hopefully.
I was interested in the dialecting angle, kind of like how if you hit certain points in the parse and want to take an action you drop code in parens in
So that's a reason I was upset it was so hard to do good paths when Rebol has a PATH!.
Structural and everything.
@iceflow19 I think NewPath is fairly critical. Did you see my idea about getting rid of the idea of / being a legal natural word for division, and just make path evaluation of numbers do division? So 20/10 if it hit path evaluation would be 2.
Already, path evaluation is a chain of operations. Just if you got to a point in the chain and what you have in your hand happens to be numeric, and the next thing is numeric, then divide.
 
Wouldn't that break offset based accesses on blocks of depth two or more?

a/3/2 ?
 
Paths evaluate left to right. So what /2 does depends on what you got back from a/3
a: [0 10 20]
a/3/2
That would be 10
a: [0 10 [a b c]]
a/3/2
 
3:14 PM
Ah I see where your going with this..
 
That would be 'b
The way I see it is that infix is already a luxury other languages wouldn't have bothered to give you. It's for readability of source when you enter it, how your input looks on the page.
And bending over backwards to make "parsing exceptions" and oddities so that / can be a legal WORD! if it stands alone seems misguided in the grand scheme of things.
I'm actually more interested in the possibility that you can space paths out. a / b / c
You wouldn't have to, but if you could, that gives those who want to options.
So if you can write (a + b)/(c + d) and if it's mathematical it works how you wanted, I say great.
Problem solved, with the known caveat that the mechanical behavior of the parts is very different from when you write (a + b)*(c + d).
And then there's the question of spacing, but as I said, I'm thinking that (a + b) / (c + d) being a path isn't obviously bad.
(    a +
  b

                                               )
is still a paren...you might think it weird if someone formatted things like that, but people aren't clamoring to outlaw it.
 
True. Hmm I'll have to mull it over more. Theoretically we could apply the same concept to any of the operators. And then have things that follow the evaluation rules of new path but not necessarily have them navigate a block or other series structure.
 
In the design I have so far there's one thing that has to be done that I haven't figured out how to make perform well, and that's to make it so that there's a new function type called REFINED!
So that you could say ao: :append/only and ao would be (effectively) a function that behaved as if it were append refined with /only
The reason being that this allows the one-step-at-a-time principle. Today what happens in path evaluation is clunky. It gets to a function value and then goes off invoking the function...passing the function call mechanics the remainder of the path
I would like it to just move in steps, have a little matrix, so what happens is if you say append/only/dup the append/only step makes a REFINED!, which then knows that if it gets a word that makes another REFINED!, and so on.
Haven't yet figured out how to do it without being kind of slow.
Rebol's not famous for speed to begin with, and everything I've thought of would be kind of not good. But... haven't actually thought all that much about it. Haven't got a test implementation to knock around in my head.
@iceflow19 Speaking of features in the pipe, I don't recall if you saw that explanation of COLLECT/KEEP I showed Morwenn?
I mention the idea of refinements being valued to either NONE or the refinement word itself, as a WORD!
 
3:32 PM
Ya I have.
 
That's one I want. He said "too meta". I say no such thing. :-)
The chaining is too useful. But a reminder to me that in NewPath, there is no refinement!...
2-element path with NONE! in the first slot...at an implementation level, I imagine that can be optimized to low cost if there are many such things.
 
What if there is no refined! type but rather a function with a mutated spec?
Though that may require changing the spec syntax...
 
@iceflow19 Well, that's sort of what REFINED! would be... you wouldn't be making new copies of the function body, and you couldn't make a new copy of the code implementing a native...
So "refined" is actually a macro for what I'm talking about. I actually think there should be only one function type: FUNCTION!
Some functions you can't take the BODY-OF. Okay, well, that's just a property of that function. Doesn't have to be a separate NATIVE! type.
(There are already enough bits for us to put the function sub-type into the value cell header. In fact, the sub-type is already there for other reasons.)
 
Any thoughts of allowing sets ( : ) in the function spec, I know that Doc uses that in Red system.
 
I'm using it for return:
 
3:41 PM
Are are they already allowed?
Oh ok nvm
 
There's some question of how to specify other attributes in the function spec dialect. We have the desire to make things transparent to returns or other such properties, and earl suggests he likes tags for those. foo: function [x y <transparent> return: [integer! string!]] [...]
The thing being that each instance of a tag takes up memory as a string, they're not symbols. So there's a little cost there. It's not the kind of cost you'd usually worry about in dialecting, and how many function specs are there really...
You wouldn't freak out about having one more word in your function description, so why freak out about transparent not being a symbol?
I had a weird suggestion that people didn't like which was that set-words would be how you declared locals. foo: function [a b c x: y: z:] [...] as opposed to foo: function [a b c local: x y z] [...]. On the plus side of it, you can put them anywhere. and it's not like you've "kicked into local mode and can't come back". Could help with generative situations.
On the downside, people hated it.
 
@HostileFork Actually I don't think that's too bad of an idea, personally, though that would also make return: a local.
 
@iceflow19 With definitionally scoped returns, it technically is.
But Rebol has no real way to make use of type information you'd put on the other locals. It can't currently control that. But perhaps it could be a feature for future expansion.
I'm not sure though, because if there was a way to monitor the types that a word could take on and trap violations, you wouldn't just want that on function locals.
Also, the meaning on args is about what the input type is, but you can then change it.
 
I'm currently meditating on refined. I'll respond back in a while.
 
3:57 PM
Coolio. I'm trying to get some more commits in... as I say, hoping to get to patching in and pushing bugfixes and features realsoonnow.
This is just baseline junk that has to be done to polish it for collaborative credibility, or whatever. :-)
Pshaw.
 
4:35 PM
I might have an idea.
But the caveat is that it would actually introduce a new legitimate type.
 
@iceflow19 Well, I think I plan to see FRAME! gone, and if the functions collapse to one that frees up...
>> ANY-FUNCTION!
errrm. Bot down again?
red> ANY-FUNCTION!
Y'know what I bet it is, I bet it's that authentication change.
359
Q: Upcoming login changes (Stage 2 now LIVE)

Anna LearAs y'all know, our current flavor of "global authentication" leaves a few things to be desired. It's flaky, requires a page refresh, etc. etc. Wouldn't it be nice if you could just sign in once and be automatically logged in across the network? We are ready to roll out Stage 1 of Project "Make...

== make typeset! [native! action! rebcode! command! op! closure! function!]
 
Caveat #2 would be that it would be a pseudo~ish function type. (As it sort of behave like a function)
 
NATIVE! and CLOSURE! and FUNCTION! at minimum will be merged, and probably OP! too.
I have been trying to understand what a good generalization of ACTION! would be...which is what I think people wanted in UTYPE!...
@iceflow19 Well proposals are welcome. One thing I've found is that getting into the implementation, it's pretty straightforward in some ways once you dig through... but a lot of "oh this should work" then turns out to have some kind of hitch.
 
foo: make refined! [[only] 'append]
foo [4 5] [123]
== [4 5 [123]]
So append/only -> (function / word) -> make refined! [[only] 'append]
append/only/part -> (function/word1)/word2 -> (refined/word) -> add only word2 to the internal override buffer
The refined on evaluation acts similar to apply by apply the override buffer to the function reference.
Think of it as if apply were a type and had memory.
 
4:50 PM
Yes, right...the tough part is that you're generating series, and series have to be GCd.
So if I go in a loop and say loop 100 [append/only foo [bar baz]] I just created 100 REFINED!s, each with a series that needs GC'ing
 
But your at least not deep recopying the whole spec on each refinement evaluation.
 
Yes, that would be bad, so no, not under consideration.
But without that we still have this notion of the evaluation chain producing these things. And these things have unknown lifetime, hence they have to be GC'd. maybe. It may be that there's enough confidence in the transient nature of path evaluation that an intermediate refined can be held up during path evaluation and only create an actual object handed to GC if it comes out the end of the pipe.
Hence: loop 100 [append foo :append/only].
 
But if we GC the whole refined, can't we also GC the referenced series at the same time?
 
You have to run the GC. The GC only runs when you reach a limit.
I guess the point being I don't want to chew memory and start pushing up on the GC limit each time a refinement is used.
 
@HostileFork Thats what I was thinking...
 
4:55 PM
And since I haven't written it yet, maybe the refined!s that get produced during path evaluation can be special and known that they haven't "escaped"...no user references, so still potentially subject to manual memory management, and you free them.
Or have a stack of them you reuse, or something.
 
Hmm.
 
Lots of cool things that could be done here, which is why I want to hammer it around a bit to get the story straight and just make sure what's there is stable and works... for starters.
And that people can come in, make a change, trip some alarms if they broke something and know it...find the place to look to read why the alarm is there, what it means and what they need to do.
Because you're sort of flying blind at the moment. No turnkey test suite with "you broke it!" coming back on Travis, few asserts in the Debug build, etc. etc.
So I'm climbing back up the mountain to the zero-crash test suite and zero-leak stuff, starting from the Atronix un-fork, and hopefully this time I'll get there faster. But the code is different, new issues, and also I'm considering it differently after some experience (not how to fix the bugs, but what sorts of decisions to make about reorganizing the source)
 
 
2 hours later…
7:03 PM
@HostileFork :-) The post is too smart (and long) for my limited mental capacity.
 
@noein Lucky you have a Fork coprocessor online for any questions you may have. :-)
 
 
1 hour later…
8:29 PM
@JacobGood1 @Adrian Posted a comment on the macros answer.
Again, I feel a bit like a proxy in making these arguments. If something doesn't look right, let me know.
 
8:43 PM
@rgchris No comment visible to me...
Off the cuff it seems like return/redo might accomplish the desire but I'd have to fully understand the criticisms of why that sort of thing was not considered bad again. (Assuming I understood why it was bad in the first place.)
do :add 1 2 => 3 is a demonstration that REDO does exist still; it's just saved in particular for DO, when it gets a function... you can no longer write your own that has that behavior.
@JacobGood If you didn't absorb that one earlier, perhaps you can contrast what you want with what you could achieve with it: stackoverflow.com/questions/14760916/…
 
@HostileFork Hm—appears to be there...
Only have a 129 rep on that site—perhaps they're under moderation?
 
@rgchris Hmmmm. Don't know, but only one answer I can see.
 
Well, here it's:
@HostileFork Hm.
 
8:58 PM
@rgchris Oh, I read that as "Hey @JacobGood1, @Adrian posted an answer"... you meant "someone posted an answer"
I'd seen that one when it was posted 2 days ago
 
@HostileFork Ah, no—there was some disappointment toward that answer and Jacob couldn't post comments, so...
@HostileFork I seem to recall a message from Doc recently about deprecating that DO behaviour in Red. I guess it is kind of weird if it's the only instance where it holds.
 
I think I have to understand why the redo-ing was killed. Especially with expression barriers, you have the ability to end the chain without putting things in parentheses.
I'm not saying one necessarily needs to be prescriptive about using it, but it sounds like some of the macro desires might be suited by it.
But yeah, if one is going to ban it, then why make DO special? Just gets people to ask "why can't I DO that..."
But return/redo fulfills the desire as best as Rebol probably can... to let you have a "pre-pass" of defining what function you want to execute and then run it where you were.
I thought it was a cool feature, but discovering it and asking that question led it to get attention and then snuffed out...
 
9:14 PM
>> foo: func [arg [string!]][print uppercase arg]
bar: does [:foo]
do bar "foo"
@RebolBot alive?
Boo!
 
@rgchris looks good to me
 
9:49 PM
@HostileFork @rgchris they should at least document the cookies they use so we don't have to waste our time reverse engineering this crap
 
@GrahamChiu Unless they're actively trying to discourage bots?
 
no, they wanted universal login
across all sites
except area 51 and a couple of others
it may be that the cookie name has changed, and that's it
 
Would like to do something akin to Mechanize, lightweight naturally. A lot of pieces are there: Rest protocol, HTML parser, DOM functions. Only problem is they are mostly Rebol 2 :(
 
rebol2? what's that?
 
A historic version of Rebol with working CALL and HTTPS :)
 
9:57 PM
I thought we had https?
don't need call for this work
I'm going to debug my floors
It's sunday morning, and my polished wooden floors are all marked with foot prints, so time to mop them :(
 
I don't yet have a working version of Rebol 3 with HTTPS.
Or CALL.
 
Atronix r3/view has https
 
Does not compile on OS X.
 
that's what rebolbot was using
oh .. OSX
Sorry
Doesn't Carl use OSX?
 
Don't know—I think so.
 
10:12 PM
@draegtun I tried this, but it says:
./r3-make -qs ../src/tools/make-make.r 0.2.40
*** Expected platform id (tuple like 0.3.1), not: 0.2.40
 
that's generated from make-make.r right?
 
Right (this is Ren-C).
I was able to build it before on Snow Leopard only doing make make, but now I get 'Unsupported CPU endian'.
 
it does cross compilation .. so can you compile it on linux for osx?
 
I don't have a linux system to hand...
 
not even a linux vm?
 
10:24 PM
@rgchris Ren/C after the Atronix un-fork needs some help with the make-make
As I may have mentioned, they drifted from using make-make.r to a mixture of hand maintained makefiles and VC projects, which I deleted when I did the split out
 
@GrahamChiu No, could get one running I suppose—seems like a project beyond testing some casual builds...
 
So we need to whip that back into shape for the other platforms. It shouldn't be too hard, but right now I'm working on Linux 64-bit so that's what I've got going.
 
10:38 PM
NP—I'd offer to help, but a bit intimidated digging around the files.
 
rebol/red bots run on linux64 so that's what we need first :)
 
10:59 PM
@rgchris It has been a busy day of commits for me but hopefully things will settle out in not too long to where I can be ready to make sure everyone has a copy of it built on all the platforms again...
@GrahamChiu Well see I knew there was a reason.
 
@GrahamChiu I get that, but not sure how that helps me put together scripts that only work for me in Rebol 2 to make a Rebol 3 script that would theoretically help you.
 
@HostileFork Looking forward to my CBM64 build
 
@GrahamChiu If a Turing Machine can play Halo, a C64 can run Rebol.
Given enough disks.
 
@HostileFork you know you can double side 170k single sided discs?
 
@GrahamChiu I had a little disk puncher for exactly that purpose. But before I got it I used a hole puncher and just took another disk and flopped it upside down to see where to make the notch.
 
11:09 PM
@HostileFork me too
I've got a few boxes of new discs too
 
11:49 PM
@GrahamChiu rebolbot is (was) currently running on the atronix build (for https) and redbot was running on rebolsource. Both running on digital ocean 32bit box (32bit to save a bit of memory as the $5/month box only has 512MB)
 
ahhh... need 32bit convergence build then
 
That would help. I could rebuild the digital ocean box as debian 64bit which would probably work fine in just 512MB, but it is a matter of time ...
It is currently ubuntu 32bit which, in hindsight, was a mistake. Ubuntu seems to load a lots of additional rubbish in the background which wastes more memory
 

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