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12:02 AM
@HostileFork take another look at issue.cc/r3/2104 - new comment there needs some discussion.
 
@rebol Assuming you noticed the Linux R3-GUI announcement. David says he'll publish Atronix's repository state tomorrow. So even if Saphirion isn't being speedy about sharing their updates, we can perhaps get around that by working from the Atronix code. And congratulations @ShixinZeng on seeing that coming together -- nice work!
 
@rebol, @HostileFork, we need to turn some of the docs in the old R3 chat into something a bit more linkable. I was thinking of transferring the /into option specification to a SO Q&A, at least for now, so we have something to point people to when they ask questions about it. Or even worse, when they try to destroy it by giving it append semantics.
We really need to split SPLIT into two functions as well, one that does what it does now with SPLIT, and one which does what it does with SPLIT/into. The current behavior has problems.
 
@BrianH I'll have to get myself into the mode of pondering it. I really haven't "done my homework" to fully understand the deeper points of binding and contexts, so I glaze over a bit with the details. Today I went back and looked at Rubol and updated it a little, and really need to go tackle it with more understanding than I had when I tried to write it the first time. That will hopefully get me in better shape w.r.t. the issues.
 
@BrianH The old R3 chat being the internal AltME world or the builtin "dev base" R3 chat?
 
@HostileFork the main problem is that it's really a good idea to require people to use self/x expressions to visually distinguish object var references from local var references, but that doesn't work with hidden words. Whether we make real methods or not, this is still an issue. I figured out a way to get around this with post-processing though which should be pretty sweet, but it doesn't survive certain code packaging processes like Rebol's mezzanine builder, so we can't use it there.
@earl builtin dev base R3 chat. AltMe stuff has mostly been moved to CureCode. Or should have been already.
@HostileFork I'd like to take another look at Rubol as well, now that I'm more familiar with Ruby.
 
12:20 AM
@BrianH I cleaned it a little bit, but wait to look at it until I make another cleanup pass. Speaking of which, I've noticed that I've been using "Description:" and "Usage:" in headers a lot... but then I didn't see anything on the "Rebol header conventions" page about that. So I don't know where I got that from.
There needs to be an updated version of that page. headers.rebol.net ?
 
@HostileFork that might have come from the old Rebol.org script library conventions.
 
I'm still lost a bit on things like whether it should be License: mit or License 'mit etc. @maxim had a header generator, and I think an online generator would be nice to let you pick things and tick boxes and get your modules.rebol.org standardized compatible header.
 
@HostileFork The parse-set-word change was merged as well, btw. For your FUNCTION + PARSE auto-locals bliss.
 
@HostileFork either will work. Headers are processed with very limited evaluation semantics, mostly just converting a few keywords to values, and the lit-* types to their non-lit equivalents. Since mit isn't a keyword, it can be put in a header as-is.
 
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 957 so chat away!
 
12:30 AM
@earl Def nice but does raise the question of wanting that same distinction for saving the parse position via set-word. If we had a mark x and mark x: it would also clarify the issue @BrianH brought of with set x: y: being confusing, as that would become set x: mark y:. Then you could restore the position perhaps with seek y.
Greetings @Eleeist, welcome to an exciting day for the Rebol world. Some big merges. :-) But we can still talk. Heard of Rebol or Red?
@BrianH Freedom of choice isn't always a good thing. Sometimes people want to be told which it is... especially if one is writing an analytical tool running over headers and doesn't want to test every possibility. As the saying goes: "We love standards, that's why we have so many of them."
 
@HostileFork I'm pretty happy with the change. I'd like to keep the existing set-word and get-word behavior, even with the change, because I find it convenient and not confusing. If you add MARK and SEEK, I'd still want to keep the existing behavior.
 
@HostileFork MARK/SEEK is actually a pretty sweet naming idea. Thanks for that.
 
@HostileFork an analytical tool processing headers should use CONSTRUCT. Its behavior is thoroughly thought through and documented, and it is the exact same function used to process headers internally.
 
@earl In thinking about the bootstrapping, it seems it might be helpful if there were an online page where you could enter in the parameters to make and get the bootstrap portions created with the latest build. One should be cautious in using new features in make-make/make-prep... but it would be nice to have a site to plug in some parameters and get the files built out for whatever platform you wanted in case the r3-make you had for that platform wasn't working. Just a thought.
rejoin [{<} either is-span [{span}] [{div}] space {class="} to string! class {">}]

;-- vs...

rejoin [{<} (either is-span {span} {div}) space {class="} to string! class {">}]
I really do think that looks better. You spend your "series points" on something more relevant to call out the either expression.
 
12:47 AM
@HostileFork Not a bad idea. Please add a short Trello card for it.
 
I'm working on editing the REWORD article to match the new behavior, and to reflect its less-experimental status.
 
And I'm tracking down where 28 regressions came from, in the recent merges ... :/
 
@earl which might not all be regressions, of course :-/
 
@BrianH 25 of them are.
 
Speaking of which, @earl, after I get through all the doc changes, I was going to resume the selective import project. Have you had any new ideas on this topic since we last talked about this?
 
12:56 AM
Wishes on Rebol Community Development
We're starting to address more "disruptive" changes to Rebol 3 in order to lay a better foundation for new users... as well as bring Rebol and Red into alignment on basic language semantics. One r...
 
@BrianH I have some notes somewhere, which I'll happily dig out.
 
@earl yay. I think I remembered the simplified syntax we came up with. The trick is that we might have to do the BIND enhancements in order for this to work efficiently. And I still want to write up the BIND API changes I brought up at the conference.
We need to write up or find the notes on the indexing change as well, especially since they would apply to Red too.
 
Regressions are coming from the PARSE change (@HostileFork).
@BrianH I have notes on this one as well; but they'll need to be written up in a short, coherent piece.
 
@earl Uh oh. :-( I do pretty well remember testing that, although my aptitude in using the tests is not very good. Want to back it out while it's looked into?
 
Ouch, @HostileFork getting hit by C operator precedence ...
@HostileFork github.com/hostilefork/rebol/blob/… -- wants to be !(a || b).
 
1:06 AM
@earl I remembered at least how to get selective import to work with the lib model. It's fairly simple: If you want to do selective import on a regular module, you would do it when you import that module the first time, since for regular modules that first import to lib is the only one that matters. Private import can be differently selective every time, as you please, since that also fits the model.
@earl can we make a quick fix PR for this?
 
@BrianH Already at it.
 
@earl Whoops. Apologies. :-/ It's been long ago now so precisely remembering how I could have overlooked or messed up in the testing is not possible. I might have forgotten; it's hard to say.
 
@HostileFork No worries. What's your primary dev platforms for R3 changes?
 
@earl Linux/Debian
 
@HostileFork Here's three utility scripts I use for easier regression testing: gist.github.com/earl/4130ce0b7915a9df2a92
 
1:15 AM
posted on February 16, 2014 by earl

This fixes an operator precedence typo in the check for "not COPY or SET" (introduced by 8db79a9) which causes a few regressions in PARSE. Tested under Linux-x86: eliminates the 25 regressions.

 
I have github.com/rebolsource/rebol-test cloned as test/ within my R3 checkout.
The three scripts are placed inside test/.
A mainline R3 binary is stored in make/r3-master.
Running test/reg then runs tests with make/r3 and make/r3-master and compares the results.
(NB: The bash scripts have a few GNU-isms and therefore are not directly usable on OSX.)
 
@earl Perhaps the "test" directory could be a submodule in Git, as a standard?
I've been working with submodules for Draem, seems to work well enough.
 
@HostileFork Nope, submodules are too much administration for that.
But eventually, we could integrate the tests with the sources.
Nevertheless, on Linux this works right now. Maybe it helps your testing consequence as well :)
 
If we're serious about getting the development ship running, then getting serious about testing and making it easier for everyone contributing is a must. I still think that unifying the Red and Rebol tests is a very worthwhile near-term goal... and given that goal, it would seem the tests should remain outside of either project.
 
We need to have the tests as part of the project, so that any particular version of Rebol will pass the same version of the tests. If you can do that with sub-modules, fine, they will work if we think they're worth the management overhead. But we need to make sure that any Rebol commit will pass the tests in that commit. And yes, that means CI verification of the tests passing.
 
1:27 AM
@earl In the spirit of keeping with momentum, I think a good talking point on the precedence fix is to work with Carl on how others who are empowered on the Rebol repository can make that kind of change.
@BrianH Submodules apparently used to be harder to work with in earlier versions of git, but now they can "follow branch" which makes it easier. Before a submodule wound up getting stamped with the version you were working with, and so every time you merged up the submodule it wound up adding another changed file in your commit for the repository using the submodule (basically that version stamp). A nuisance.
 
OK, cool, as long as your commit can be tied to a particular commit of the submodule repository. I'm not as familiar with how submodules work now because we don't use them at work.
 
I'm not sure if you can do both modes, it may be one or the other.
Whether you want the tests to be tied or not is something I don't know about. Why would you care how well a commit did on old tests? I guess if you were managing things and wanted to figure out what the tests someone ran were and if they should have noticed a problem. I guess it depends on the goal. It's not a build "dependency"
 
@BrianH That's exactly what you can do with submodules. But the effect is quite a loss of flexibility.
 
@HostileFork It's a good idea to have CI-hooked tests, so the tests not passing on a PR means that Github will tell you not to merge that PR. That way, any changes needed to the tests to make Rebol compatible with the changes you propose will need to be included with your changes, and this makes it much easier to review the major implications of such a change. Not a build dependency, a merge dependency.
 
CI integration is an absolutely good thing, yes :)
 
1:38 AM
So speaking of making sure the Rebol development train stays on track, and since @earl and @BrianH are here, I want to give the pull request for my bug above as an example of "things that clearly fall under the category of stuff that there needs to be empowerment to just do"
 
@HostileFork I think we're slowly getting there :)
 
@HostileFork I agree.
 
Haven't heard from Ladislav lately, so don't know what his situation is. But we had discussed the idea of building up the organization of people empowered to do that. On the table at one time was @earl, @BrianH, and @Ladislav. Other points that were made was that we wanted to put the rebol.org sites under the GitHub rebol/rebol and that the organization should include people like @rgchris who are working on that stuff.
I believe the organization membership on Rebol and Red being public is a good thing, and @earl it is apparently up to you and @PeterWAWood to do that on github.com/red
I'd rather see a voting-style situation where there are enough people with diverse opinions that if they all agree on something then it goes in, and it only gets held up if there's disagreement. Carl could then be the deadlock-breaker. This approaches the style other projects use.
 
(Sorry, I'm out for tonight. BBL)
 
L8r
rejoin [{<div} (if/only div-class [space {class="} to string! div-class {"}]) {>}]
@BrianH So there's an example of something that I think would be a nice construct. If blocks in REJOIN were REJOINed and not FORMed that would make more sense, and if NONE were thrown out unless you said /ONLY then I think a lot of stuff would tidy up.
(imagine in the above case that div-class is either a WORD! or NONE!)
It's significantly cleaner than the alternative:
rejoin [{<div} (either div-class [rejoin [space {class="} to string! div-class {"}]] [{}]) {>}]
 
1:56 AM
Keep in mind that REJOIN doesn't just create strings, it can create blocks too.
 
@BrianH Hm. Let me think on that. In the meantime, I thought of what REJOIN could mean: "REpeated JOIN".
As long as REMOLD and REFORM got the axe, that could fly.
@BrianH Okay, so JOIN'd with whatever you had before without FORMing, I meant.
 
I didn't have time to reply earlier, but your suggested behavior for JOIN and REJOIN with strings would need to be defined and explained in such a way as to not conflict with actually wanting to insert none when they're used to make block types.
If you say that none means no value, that would conflict with the standard meaning of none as being a value of nothing that you want to be there. If, on the other hand, you say that none is converted to the empty string when inserting to a string/binary, that would work.
It would be consistent with the changes to REWORD that have "" and none mean the same thing as escape values. We could just say that the result of FORMing a none is "".
 
@BrianH I guess I just don't see this as being hugely contentious with things like how COMPOSE/ONLY treats blocks. A block is a perfectly legitimate thing to want to put into a block, too. And often you want to, and so you use /ONLY. I'm suggesting that...especially in light of IF/UNLESS returning NONE if the condition is not met...adding NONE to the things COMPOSE and REJOIN ignore by default could be helpful.
 
There is no in-bounds meaning for putting none in a string/binary series, so "" makes sense here.
 
Making a form of none produce "" in general might be confusing. :-/
The /ONLY option would allow for the more-awkward-but-thorough handling we have to do today. I don't mind "none" the string going in if you use REJOIN/ONLY.
 
2:07 AM
@HostileFork agreed. It could be considered to be a special case for (RE)JOIN.
 
@RebolBot
join ["a"] none
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> join ["a"] none
== ["a" none]
 
So this would suggest a JOIN/ONLY also, where joining none to things just leaves it alone by default.
 
@HostileFork we get a significant speedup from JOIN and REJOIN not having any options.
 
@BrianH Don't you only pay for the option if it's used in path form?
@RebolBot
join ["a"] ["a" "b"]
 
2:10 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> join ["a"] ["a" "b"]
== ["a" "a" "b"]
 
@RebolBot
rejoin [["a"] ["a" "b"]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> rejoin [["a"] ["a" "b"]]
== ["a" ["a" "b"]]
 
Shouldn't those be the same? :-/
 
@HostileFork You pay for the processing of the option, even if you use APPLY. It's only options that are completely ignored that have minimal overhead.
 
@BrianH I just noticed that from a distance, the way your picture is cropped it looks like your face is in Rebol brackets. :-) It might be funny to get a slightly overexposed close-up of everyone's face taken on a black backdrop and put brackets on them for some Rebol user community site...
 
2:18 AM
@HostileFork join ["a"] ["a" "b"] is equivalent to rejoin [["a"] "a" "b"], at least according to their specs. But their specs might be due for another look.
I made the REWORD article at least not have any syntax errors with the new version, but it needs a lot more work. There are enough new features to merit making the article twice the length.
 
I'm in the "more simple rules" camp. Even if the implementation is efficient, something that is equivalent to rejoin [blk [block!]] [result: first blk foreach elem next blk [result: join result elem] result] is at least predictable.
And if foreach accepted none as a no-op that kind of thing would be simpler to write. :-/
 
@HostileFork please don't make Rebol more difficult to debug than it needs to be.
 
I thought it was you who said throwing errors was not the default. :-)
 
@HostileFork only when those errors aren't useful. But at the same time, we made it also throw more useful errors when that was a better idea. The goal is to make errors considered useful, so people don't have to work around error-triggering code as much in normal circumstances, which hides the errors you want to see.
@HostileFork FOREACH accepts none for its data argument, which is a noop. A none to either of its other arguments is more clearly an error.
 
2:44 AM
@BrianH Ah, well then it does work as expected.
 
@HostileFork yeah. We tried to make more functions accept none for the data parameters, where a sensible and useful meaning for that could be found, but not accept none for the "syntax" parts like the code block or the index words. It's a good balance.
 
Anyway, that seems like a nice invariant for rejoin. Then if join "somestring" none was just "somestring" then the behavior I'm looking for would not affect FORM.
Regarding the performance argument on why not to have an /ONLY refinement exist at all (for "somestringnone" == join/only "somestring" none, among the other proposed ideas), I think we should do some updated studies on the impact. Also, with Rebol being open source we can have more eyes on ways to optimize it in general.
 
So you want (RE)JOIN to treat none values like unset values, when inserting into strings or binaries? As long as it's just any-string/binary, I'd be OK with that. In this case, treating both like nothing would make sense.
 
3:00 AM
@BrianH I didn't know it accepted unsets. :-/ That seems like it should be an error.
 
You wouldn't need an /only argument, because it only affects strings and binaries for values that don't really correspond to values that convert to string or binary, and are too useful to just trigger errors for.
 
@BrianH Remember that my motivation for this suggestion comes from being tired of always having to use EITHER when what I really mean is IF or UNLESS. This applies to REJOIN and COMPOSE and maybe other places. Why write compose [thing (either condition [something] [[]])] when you could write compose [thing (if condition [something])]? I feel that this is so common in practice that having to explicitly ask to treat NONE literally is very useful, and /ONLY is already in place there...
You feel that composing NONE into blocks is a "super common thing". Is it really more common than composing blocks into blocks? How does it stack up against the extremely frequent desire to use an IF or UNLESS?
 
@HostileFork It ignores unsets. For blocks, it inserts the unsets and nones - this makes it easier to track down errors for regular code (error locality), and is not an error for unset-tolerant code.
 
@RebolBot
compose [thing (print "Wait, really?")]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> compose [thing (print "Wait, really?")]
Wait, really?
== [thing]
 
3:07 AM
That looks like it would sweep mistakes under the rug. :-/ It seems to me that whatever you use here should be "the thing IF returns when the condition is false". My understanding was that is chosen as NONE instead of UNSET for a reason of sensible chaining of assignment.
I think that if this were re-examined in the context of saying that COMPOSE/ONLY would put in literal NONE and not splice blocks, then unset should be an error.
I think you should have to write compose [thing (print "Wait, really?" none)] to prevent an error in the substitution.
And [thing none] == compose/only [thing (print "Wait, really?" none)]
For the moment, I'm doing a lot more string rejoining than composing to worry about the nuances of it. And I don't really use rejoin for blocks, which is why that keeps slipping my mind. But if I did, I feel like having IF/UNLESS cases would be common there too where I'd want to optionally have an element in the rejoin or not, just as I'm doing for strings.
I have quite a lot of them in the strings, and it draws attention to this constant need to turn IFs and UNLESSes into EITHERs. And while the COMPOSE case and the REJOIN of block case aren't on my radar at the moment, they really seem the same to me.
 
@HostileFork in the case of COMPOSE, the unset value is explicitly treated as a noop to make it easier to insert nothing there when you do COMPOSE/only. It's a feature.
>> compose [1 ([]) 2]
== [1 2]

>> compose/only [1 ([]) 2]
== [1 [] 2]
 
append result rejoin [
	either needs-pre-tag [
		rejoin [
			{<pre}
			either verb = 'code [
				rejoin [
					space
					{class="prettyprint}
					either language [
						rejoin [space {lang-} to string! language]
					] [{}]
					{"}
				]
			] [{}]
			{>}
		]
	] [{}]
	either needs-code-tag [{<code>}] [{}]
	code
	either needs-code-tag [{</code>}] [{}]
	either needs-pre-tag [{</pre>}] [{}]
	newline
]
 
So when you do COMPOSE/only, how would you not insert anything? That is why it special-cases unset.
 
3:23 AM
@BrianH Hmmm. Well, I wasn't really setting out to attack that. I guess that makes sense, and makes as much sense for none if it needed /ONLY to be inserted by the same rationale
 
For REJOIN it currently inserts the unset when you are building a block, because whether or not unset is an error is up to the developer. And REJOIN is used for different purposes than COMPOSE, that's why we have two functions.
 
Anyway, the above code is from Draem. I'd like to see it instead as:
append result rejoin [
	if/only needs-pre-tag [
		{<pre}
		if/only verb = 'code [
			space
			{class="prettyprint}
			if/only language [space {lang-} to string! language]
			{"}
		]
		{>}
	]
	if needs-code-tag {<code>}
	code
	if needs-code-tag {</code>}
	if needs-pre-tag {</pre>}
	newline
]
 
@HostileFork inserting none into a block is really damn common, it's a legit value. That is why I was suggesting your change only apply when building any-strings or binaries, where inserting none is rare and senseless enough that being consistent with the behavior of unset in that case is sensible. If you want to insert "none" you can insert "none" or 'none.
 
@BrianH Again, consider the motivation. I see a pattern in the handling of strings. You say "okay, fine, it fits... do it for strings" and then you extend it to binaries, because you are thinking of binaries, while in my case that hadn't gotten on my radar yet. Instead I went to thinking about how the same pattern might apply to people building blocks who had slots that would be filled conditionally.
My own personal experience is that I use COMPOSE/ONLY about as often as COMPOSE, because pursuant to your statement that NONE is valid to put in a block, I find myself putting blocks in blocks very often because they are valid and used. By contrast, I don't personally recall putting a none in a block with COMPOSE on purpose, ever. Just on accident.
 
@HostileFork Well, you have to be a bit more careful with blocks, because none is a legit value by definition in Rebol, it is the value that is nothing, as opposed to unset which is the non-value. The whole reason we have both is that distinction. But when you are building blocks, there are a lot of ways you can interpret this kind of thing. (RE)JOIN is the low-level, non-judgmental builder, which assumes that you know what you're doing.
 
3:36 AM
You have written a lot more Rebol code than I have, but also, you're not a typical user. A lot of what you do is highly generalized utility functions. It is more likely that you have to consider NONE than most people.
 
Anyone who has to do advanced data structures has to consider none. A lot of people use blocks and such instead of a database, when blocks and such are fine. For that matter, any of the fixed-length-record functions (most with the /skip option) are used on data that requires none in positions where you would have null columns in SQL. It's a very common usage pattern.
We've had to be pretty careful about none in Rebol. In conditional contexts it's falsey, in value contexts it's like SQL's null, and increasingly in string contexts it's comparable to the empty string. I've even seen some people interpret it as 0 in integer conversions, but that's really iffy so we stamped down on that. It's always a balancing act.
 
@BrianH But putting blocks into blocks is a common usage pattern too. :-/ I guess I don't see the harm in using compose/only if that's what you want. It's as if you're suggesting that the number of cases where people want to splice blocks but also get NONE is a lot; I don't know if usage metrics would bear that out. Also, there's a difference between the word none and the value #[none!]... I would think that what you usually actually want when building blocks is the word, wouldn't that be so?
 
@HostileFork usually not the word, actually. It's really rare that you need the word 'none, just when you're creating source code that will be evaluated by DO later after being saved to a file or string without the /only option of MOLD or SAVE. Most of the time when people want the word none they write it out directly. It's not a common value in data, not like the #[none!] value is.
When you're generating data, if you use the word 'none then you have to evaluate the data somehow for that 'none to be interpreted as #[none]. So unless you expect to evaluate your data later, you usually want to insert the value #[none], same as you would insert the value #[true] instead of the word 'true.
 
3:58 AM
I guess if I ever consider putting none into a block, it's because it is code that is expected to be molded out or run with DO later.
On a naming note, I'm wondering if we can standardize the naming of the forks...maybe like Rebol/Saphirion and Rebol/Atronix...instead of inventing a bunch of new names for things like "Saphir" and "Atronobol" :-/
 
@HostileFork You haven't had to use blocks for positional data then, or to integrate Rebol with external databases. The #[none] as null thing is pretty common there, especially with SQL access code or JSON generators.
 
This means you'll still find Rebol in the searches and people won't have to go "what is Saphir"?
 
I do like that most Ruby dialects have Ruby somewhere in the name. Same for Python dialects.
 
The interpreter binaries need to make it clear that they are forks when they are running, and call attention to that fact when they start up.
Right now there's no such notice in the Atronix/Saphirion builds.
 
There's probably room in the system object for something indicating that.
 
4:06 AM
But the build process has to make it easy to do, it doesn't really have a template for that.
The Rebol startup console messages are a bit verbose, also. This may be a case of "less is more". Python says:
Python 2.7.1 (r271:86832, Jul 31 2011, 19:30:53)
[GCC 4.2.1 (Based on Apple Inc. build 5658) (LLVM build 2335.15.00)] on darwin
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>
>>> copyright
Copyright (c) 2001-2010 Python Software Foundation.
All Rights Reserved.

Copyright (c) 2000 BeOpen.com.
All Rights Reserved.

Copyright (c) 1995-2001 Corporation for National Research Initiatives.
All Rights Reserved.

Copyright (c) 1991-1995 Stichting Mathematisch Centrum, Amsterdam.
All Rights Reserved.
 
I noticed that some names are getting added to the copyright lines in some files. I hadn't really done that for my fixes, since the git history for my changes already had my name on them. Should we be adding our names, since we don't have a foundation?
It made sense to add my name when Rebol was closed-source and my contributions were open source, licensed to RT, but it didn't seem to make as much sense when we have a version control system with attribution, and a license with clear contribution rules.
 
@BrianH Well, the best log of what changed where is the version history. The only issue where it would ever likely come up would be a relicensing under something more permissive than Apache 2, where people would have to be contacted to sign off on that. I guess my personal feeling is to hope that by the time anyone would care about anything like that we live in a world where we don't have to worry about things like that. :-/
 
I was mostly wondering because Ladislav has been adding his name a lot. It seemed redundant. YMMV.
 
4:24 AM
I think we should just carry that kind of meta-info via the repository and blame records for blame where blame is due. :-)
If someone explicitly wants to establish themselves as an "owner" or point-of-contact for a file, I guess that's fine, if they want to be contacted. That would be the only reason. You could put it on a line of code if you really wanted to. /* Know what this line is for? Email Ladislav, because he wants to know. */ or something like that.
 
No offense meant to Ladislav though, his was just the name I noticed :)
 
 
1 hour later…
5:31 AM
Haha, this guy got a new shirt made with the picture of him wearing the "Don Knuth is my Homeboy" shirt... the recursive homeboys principle: laughingsquid.com/…
Okay, I'm just not cool by comparison.
I'd have had the second shirt match the original better though, and say Me & Knuth: told you we was homeboys.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:16 AM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 3491 so chat away!
 
Greetings @Santosh from Bangalore... interest in Red and/or Rebol?
 
8:04 AM
@rebol my feedback on PR #147 cc: @iArnold
 
8:39 AM
@HostileFork I agree using a common naming scheme even it can become longer as in Rebol3/View/Atronix
 
@sqlab Good, but as I'm fond of saying: "Rebol3 is Rebol". Rebol 2 has no unicode, is not open source and the desire is not to proceed from its codebase, Rebol 2 never really got a global audience. So I suggest considering the open sourcing as the beginning of what we bother to label Rebol, and that it be focused specifically on standardizing the core language decisions (as in the above feedback on the pull request).
And to the extent that one might have grand ideas of rewriting the codebase, to C++ instead of C, or any other drastic change... Red is the "radical" ideal drastic change strategy. Rebol should be the convergent standard for the language primitives and source compatibility format. Thus I hope we crystallize it so there is no Rebol2, Rebol3, Rebol4... only Rebol.
Anyone who takes it in a new direction is e.g. Rebol/View/Atronix3, but we don't version Rebol anymore. It's like Mac shifting to OS/X
 
9:06 AM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 3158 so chat away!
 
9:31 AM
Welcome @maxtaldykin - anything you want to know about red and rebol?
 
9:55 AM
@HostileFork I like Rebol3 as it sounds more mature and all good things come in threes
 
 
1 hour later…
11:00 AM
codeape, Oslo, Norway
35.3k 6 63 88
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 35303 so chat away!
 
@RebolBot loop 5 [a: "" append a "x" print a]
 
@giuliolunati Can you elaborate on that?
 
@RebolBot
loop 5 [a: "" append a "x" print a]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> loop 5 [a: "" append a "x" print a]
x
xx
xxx
xxxx
xxxxx
 
@RebolBot This behavior seems very misleading
 
11:11 AM
@giuliolunati What do you mean?
 
@RebolBot after a: "" , I expect a = "".
 
@giuliolunati What do you mean?
 
hi @giuliolunati have a read of this rebolforum.com/…
@rebolbot do loop 5 [a: copy "" append a "x" print a]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> loop 5 [a: copy "" append a "x" print a]
x
x
x
x
x
 
Yes, I understand. But seems _very_ misleading. Was ok for
b:"" loop 5 [a: b append a "x" print a]
 
11:23 AM
@giuliolunati have a look at the rebol 2 manual as well - it has very good explanations rebol.com/docs/core23/rebolcore-6.html section 5.3
 
Ok, I'll read.
Only I don't understand the design decision.
 
@giuliolunati Why not a: "" loop 5 [append a "x" print a] ?
 
@giuliolunati most surprises you get when learning rebol are pleasant
 
The point is: the first a:"" leaves a with value "", but subsequent no. _this_ is misleading imho.
Yes, no problem in address this
 
@giuliolunati I agree that it may be confusing to new-comers, but it has some nice properties that wouldn't be possible with the other way.
 
11:33 AM
I agree. Rebol is very great! :-)
this feature only leaves me perplexed...
 
It's one of those things that you basically have to accept only to find its benefits later when you use it.
 
I understand the benefits when a: word, but I can not understand when a:""...
well, not so a big question. Rebol is very ingenious!
 
12:21 PM
@rgchris thanks, this clarify
@RebolBot
loop 5 [a:"" append a "b" print a a:"" append a "c" print a]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> loop 5 [a: "" append a "b" print a a: "" append a "c" print a]
b
c
bb
cc
bbb
ccc
bbbb
cccc
bbbbb
ccccc
 
@giuliolunati There is a quote I don't remember offhand where someone said it was understandable that people would have disbelieved the earth went around the sun because of how it looked, and the response was "but what would it have looked like if the earth did not go around the sun?"
 
it have looked the same... ?
 
Perhaps exploring the consequences on the overall design by imagining the change you think is intuitive would be useful. A good "this is why it couldn't be like that" article would be nice. Or if it can be changed and work better then perhaps it should change. I think looking into fundamentals is good.
Odds are that one won't change :)
But we are at a stage where feedback from new users needs to be listened to carefully and quirks either justified thoroughly and reasonably or cleaned up if they're mistakes.
 
Much time was spent on epicycles performing quite accurate calculations of planetry movement without a sun centered model
 
12:34 PM
Maybe understood: the actual behaviour is a bit milseading for novives (as me) but sure more flexible.
The 'intuitive' behaviour imply a loss of information.
@johnk the eliocentric system is a major win of human immagination and intelligence. Chapeau at Galileo and Copernicus (<--- ??)
Sorry for my orthog.
I'm on phone and can't re-edit :-(
 
@giuliolunati also difficult to see the earth in the middle of the picture ...
 
@giuliolinati I hate to make a "tail wagging the dog" argument, but the thing is that under the hood of the interpreter the series exists once, as a pointer, when the block is loaded. Just like the series representing a block of code exists once at load time. If you asked all assigns to copy, how would you ask to not copy?
 
you can edit on the phone, but it is annoying. Go to the menu button and there is an edit last (and delete last) option
 
@HostileFork yes, I agree.
@johnk ooooh.... :-O Many many thanks
 
The evaluator just turns the crank. x: y: z: get-string source. It does not know if the string was a literal in source or not. Copying every time doesn't work.
 
12:43 PM
I must call it a night. Nice to have a play with a linux view finally. Have fun
 
ok, see you later guys!
 
At times I have thought a new-string primitive might be helpful that returns copy "" but it is longer and less general. Better teaching of why it has to be the way it is, that's the answer.
 
Yes , I agree. Only, the first time I was very in trouble with this.
 
1:14 PM
@giuliolunati I said something not quite correct, that the interpreter can't tell between x: function-returning-string and x: "string". It can tell, and could copy in the second case and not copy in the first. Then if you didn't want to copy you could make a pass thru function that just returned its input, e.g x: static "string". By not assigning directly from a literal you could bypass the "assignments from literals copy" problem.
The first thing I can think of as a potential problem would be something like a: b: c: "string"... Would C get a copy and A and B point to it instead of getting their own?
Making assignments of literals copy, while assignments of non-literals do not, may warrant consideration. Red is changing the performance profile for Rebol users, so the concerns can now be focused on semantics.
Now you have me curious how much that would break...
I am suspicious that if such a simple change to fix such a common problem didn't have some fatal flaw, that it would not have been considered before.
 
2:25 PM
The github links for our REBOL3 and R3-GUI are on our download page -- atronixengineering.com/downloads.html
 
@DaviddenHaring So awesome. Thanks for making that so fast!
@DaviddenHaring I was suggesting that we need a naming scheme and to put together some kind of template to help the maintainers of forks distinguish them, but I don't think the forks should have new "brand names". So instead of "Saphir" and "Atronobol" (or whatever") it would be "Rebol/Saphirion" and "Rebol/Atronix"
We need a standardized way for the interpreter to identify itself on startup as being not a core build from the official sources.
Build Variant: Rebol/Atronix (http://atronixengineering.com/downloads.html) ... something along those lines showing in the startup.
I don't think it helps anybody to be reading and go "Hm, Saphir? What's Saphir?" By calling it "Rebol/Saphirion" or "Rebol/Atronix" that puts the important words together, good for searching.
So one of the first things we need to do as we start looking at patching and integrating things more into the core is going to be taking care of those concerns about the startup screen and the versioning
I want chat gone, the version bumped to some kind of 3.*, and the "this might destroy your computer" warning gone too. :-)
Speaking of which, you might consider changing that URL to something like http://atronixengineering.com/rebol/ before it gets too widespread.
And I'd prefer it if these kinds of things got standardized, so it was http://saphirion.com/rebol/ also. The download name by default should be rebol-saphirion and rebol-atronix and then people explicitly rename it to rebol on the user side; not at point of delivery.
It's just about keeping things straight in a world likely to grow ever more forked, and other languages have gone down this path too.
@earl Speaking of which, could we make the downloads from rebolsource.net be rebol-e5845asdfja with whatever the version stamp is, but from downloads.rebol.org just be rebol?
 
3:14 PM
Rebol/Atronix or Rebol/Saphirion as product names are in conflict with established Rebol/Core and Rebol/View names.
 
@rebolek Atronix/Rebol? Saphirion/Rebol?
Just we need a uniform scheme of some kind. Note the intent of what to avoid: no "Saphir" and no "Atronobol".
 
@HostileFork What about to splitting it to product name and builder name?
Rebol/View by Atronix, Rebol/Core by Saphirion... It's bit longer but you get all informations
 
But people need a short way to say it. "I am using X and I tried Y." What do they put in X? Right now we choose from "X = Saphirion's build of Rebol" or "X = Saphir". I'm proposing something more succinct.
Yes, it's a bit longer, but that's why it doesn't work well in writing.
It needs a name and I don't want people to be tempted to put "Saphir" or "Atronobol" there, but give them something clean looking
Something with no spaces.
 
I don't know...I guess it depends on how much will the builds differ.
 
I like Rebol/Atronix and Rebol/Saphirion. I don't think those are taken.
But your point is valid, that Atronix/Rebol would, in a namespace structure sense, make more sense. It reminds me of the com.example.subdomain style of leveraging DNS for unique ID
So maybe it should be Atronix/Rebol (atronix-rebol.exe) and Saphirion/Rebol (saphirion-rebol.exe) instead.
 
3:57 PM
"what has the SO red/rebol done there, that's advanced rebol3 or red for the past year ?" => [deep breath] => I'm going to grit my teeth and pretend you didn't say that. Then I'm going to answer it anyway.
I'm abusing moderation power to star that one for myself. (But at least I'm honest about it.)
Actually, I'm going to redo it because the link doesn't show up in the sidebar.
Okay, that's better. If anyone wants me to feel happier, star it more.
 
4:11 PM
@Henrik I do not think AltME or an AltME derivative is the answer to persistent curated discussion about design issues. It's always a moving target, and one should have one's data be ready to be dumped out of one system and into a better one... GitHub issues may not be perfect but DocKimbel uses it instead of CureCode for practical reasons.
 
@HostileFork Well, we have different opinions on that.
 
@Henrik Well, you know certainly that it's not viable to bring new users into AltME in its current state. Our current visions of Utopia may be some synergy of StackOverflow + Trello + Qtask, essentially expressed in something besides a mess of CSS/JavaScript/HTML.
I simply don't believe that the path to that Utopia involves the AltME codebase.
 
@HostileFork I don't really agree. :-)
especially not now after using Hipchat for a while.
 
@Henrik As in "hipchat is good" and should be looked at?
(not personally familiar)
 
As in it looks good on the surface, but has some really deep design problems, which AltME solved many years ago. Things like not even being able to send messages in order. Hipchat has a lot of users and many different clients and an open API, which would be the things that AltME needs, but the system as a whole feels of lower quality than AltME.
 
4:25 PM
@Henrik Well, I had problems even selecting text in AltME. Very basic things didn't work. I find the ergonomics of StackOverflow and Trello are relatively quite good by comparison. This chat is not meant to be a replacement for any kind of issue tracking... as far as I know it was mostly just invented because people were getting into overlong conversation threads on the Q&A and they wanted to make it possible for people to "get a room" (as the saying goes)
 
I think the solution is to copy AltME's best parts, which we can do, since we have access to the very tools that were used to build it. It appears that it needs to be done, since no other chat system I've tried "gets it".
 
@Henrik I'm very interested in semantic web technologies, and giving us something less brittle than hyperlinks for saying what we meant. If you never watched that video of what I used to work on over a decade and a half ago: IP video... and I still think that's the future of "complexity management". My interest in Rebol and Red is driven by another complementary pursuit: "complexity elimination".
The experience of using AltME is not forward-looking or futuristic. Very little about the user experience of Rebol software feels futuristic. It's about looking at the foundations.
I like many things about how StackOverflow works, but I'm simply dissatisfied with what I see when I turn on the development tools and see what's under the hood.
And Trello the same, it's pretty awesome but it's the result of monkeys typing Shakespeare, eventually they'll hit the typewriter keys and hit it. But that doesn't feel solid.
What they are nailing is process that somehow--against all odds--have been able to deliver a decent user experience on top of web browsers. It's admirable. But given that accomplishment, one must wonder what they could have achieved if the foundations were better.
Oops, I don't understand rebolforum's permalinking apparently. :-/
 
4:45 PM
What I don't understand, is why people still think these fora are exclusive.
Why do we drift into a "X is better than Y", "no, Y really is better than X" debate every time?
These fora more often than not server rather disjunct audiences. As such, they can happily coexist.
I also find @Henrik's "for deeper discussions, there is no way around AltME" remark quite interesting.
Because, in my opinion, we've seen time and time again, that that's exactly not the case.
AltME scales well to a small group (5-10 active users), but not so well beyond.
 
@earl You spend too much time in chit-chat. :-)
 
Heh. "Chit Chat" actually works quite well, imo.
More thinking about fiascos like the indexing debate in the REBOL4 world.
 
it keeps the noise contained.
There's no silver bullet to chat systems, but as far as I'm concerned, AltME is highly durable. It's just there and has been for about 12 years for me. I can trust it, and it's very easy to keep alive, although it could be even easier.
 
posted on February 17, 2014 by carls

Fix a regression in PARSE caused by 8db79a9. Thanks for quick fix, and no worries. Parse is very tight code, and it's nearly impossible to make even small change without running extensive regression tests.

 
5:14 PM
Okay, I now officially don't understand rebolforum's permalinking, for real. How do you link persistently to a post? :-(
I took the "new" off. Is that a permalink that will not get shuffled when a new post happens?
 
There's a "Permalink" link at the top.
 
@earl Oh. Hrrm. Well I'd prefer it if I could copy/paste things I clicked on and have the link be a permalink by default. But I'll try that.
 
5:27 PM
Do the Atronix builds have https?
And did I get that right? Funct is now function so we need to revisit all of our R3 source code that is out in the public eye??
 
@GrahamChiu FUNCT is still around :)
@GrahamChiu Yes, I think so.
 
@earl Ok, so nothing to do then
 
@GrahamChiu If you want to increase instructional value of your code, revisiting would be certainly appreciated. And with a long-term perspective, it would probably future-proof your code a bit as well.
 
@earl Have you written a r3 crawler for github to do this automatically yet?
 
@GrahamChiu Nope :)
 
5:34 PM
@GrahamChiu Long time no see (here). If you used the 3-arg FUNCTION variant in your code, it's broke now. I'd like to see FUNCT die out and not be in the distribution besides R3/Backward, but beyond that editing source is up to you (except on StackOverflow Q&A where I went in and killed all the FUNCT references by hand... and fixed up other things in the process.)
 
I don't think I've used 'funct much anyway ... stuck with my R2 style mostly
 
@HostileFork that was the plan. Not breaking existing code until it can be fixed is why FUNCT is still in there, @GrahamChiu.
 
Any progress on threading ?
 
@GrahamChiu Yes, the Atronix build has HTTPS, it derives from Saphirion's code. Patching HTTPS into core is now an acknowledged priority.
 
@HostileFork I presume Carl never gave us the R2 code
 
5:39 PM
@GrahamChiu The progress is that I'm against it, still, vs other priorities. I further detail my input for the vision of how Rebol and Red should segment the workload / design-space.
 
No progress on threading that I'm aware of, Graham. There are still parts of the model that need working out, which requires a discussion that hasn't happened yet.
 
@BrianH What I would like to see is a GUI that doesn't block in anyway ... any suggestions on how to achieve this?
 
@GrahamChiu Not just yet, but he's being active right now, and seems to have had a mindset change about what Rebol 3 needs to be about. I think one has to appreciate that when someone spends a decade and a half of one's time on a project and it doesn't turn out the way you might have liked, then framing how to deal with opening up the process and who to trust isn't an overnight decision.
 
Most other non embedded languages that use OS processes have had to add threads or fibers at some point, so unless we switch to green processes it's going to happen eventually.
 
@HostileFork Heh .. and he said it was ready for beta just a while ago
 
5:43 PM
I stall on publishing even trivial codebases because they're not quite right. I got Flatworm out the door this weekend, even though it's old and imperfect, but publishing anything and putting your name on it (or your pseudonym, if you use it a lot) can be hard.
 
And then we gave him a to do list.
 
@HostileFork maybe you need multiple pseudonyms, and alter them as the code advances?
@BrianH Great for a 100 year project, but for those of us with projects that need to work, not so good without any project timeline
 
@GrahamChiu I had the idea once that you would never fully "log in" to your account, rather you would have multiple identifiers and use them as a percentage. So if you were at an internet Cafe you would use your 10% GrahamChiu certification. But if something really important came up you'd increase the number of credentials you gave. It would be rare that you'd want to make a really important statement as 100% GrahamChiu.
 
@HostileFork so a similar idea then
You could have a 1 pronged fork, then a 2 pronged one, and then for final code move to a 3 pronged fork
Does RED have a GUI yet?
 
@GrahamChiu It seems that @ShixinZeng is the go-to for questions on the GUI, he added /ONLY to WAIT (As I'm still pondering the idea of where /ONLY should apply, that's a tough one)
@GrahamChiu Also in the "you never would have thought it would happen", I supported the addition of /ONLY to IF, UNLESS, and EITHER. It now means don't evaluate the blocks, just return them. e.g. [foo baz bar] == if/only 1 < 2 [foo baz bar]
Which is actually pretty cool, now merged, along with the ability to do things like x: either (1 < 2) {Less} {More}
 
5:52 PM
@HostileFork useful for rejoins
@HostileFork Is there a blog somewhere tracking all these changes??
 
@GrahamChiu They're in CureCode and the pull requests reference the CureCode tickets. It would be nice if there was an executive summary going by somewhere, though.
 
@johnk if the Atronix builds have https, should we switch Rebolbot to use it?
@HostileFork use for the Draem project?
 
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 895 so chat away!
 
Hmm. The Atronix windows build uses the Android GUI demo
 
@GrahamChiu the reason we haven't had that discussion is because threads/tasks have, categorically, been put off until after 3.0, so we're not talking about it now. As for the rest of the project, true, we haven't been on a schedule. For that matter, I was stuck doing non-Rebol work for most of the last year, so I'm not one to criticize the progress.
 
6:07 PM
@BrianH Is the todo list you mentioned visible?
@ShixinZeng how about getting the GUI demo here working? raw.github.com/gchiu/Rebol3/master/scripts/demo.r3
 
@GrahamChiu I put it together from CureCode, just going through the history and picking out the semantics-breaking issues. Weirdly enough, a lot of them are in PRs already, or have been merged in the last week.
 
I'm looking forward to the Rebol/View Linux ARM build. Then I can promote it in ODROID Magazine.
From the AltME ~Humour group: thequickword.wordpress.com/2014/02/16/…
 
But I'll check my records, I did this the last day of the Recode conference.
 
@Respectech how's the security camera business?
 
@GrahamChiu, The demo looks interesting, I will think about changing the demo link. Thanks!
 
6:17 PM
It was the original demo for the original R3 gui .. but I've had to try and fix it to work (mostly) with saphir's version of r3-gui
 
@Respectech in that picture of Martin Odersky, he's wearing Dr. Rebmu's beard!
 
but never managed to complete it due to bugs in the r3-gui
 
Are those bugs still there in Saphirion's?
 
@GrahamChiu It's going well. I'm almost ready to start selling them to the unwashed masses on ebay. ;-) The cameras now can simultaneously capture h264, jpeg and mjpeg at different resolutions and rates and serve them up in multiple ways (SMB, HTTP).
@BrianH I thought so too.
@BrianH BTW, nice to see you back!
 
@GrahamChiu, I just tested that on our builds, and it had some errors
 
6:21 PM
@ShixinZeng Thanks for your hard work on Rebol 3!
 
Yeah, we had a big product crunch at work, had months of long days. But we're past the part that requires me to do the long hours now. I'm working on post-release stuff now.
@ShixinZeng, great work on the 64bit stuff! Did you have a chance to work on Windows MSVC or OSX issues? Or is that not your area.
I don't get much chance to use Linux now, except for on my phone of course.
 
@BrianH, I mainly work on Linux systems, and occaisionaly fix bugs for other systems if it's easy
Thanks all of you guys for good words
 
@ShixinZeng sounds like fun. I'm in the SF Bay Area, so of course I have to use OSX at work.
 
@BrianH, I don't have a Mac, and our product systems are targeting for Windows, Linux and Android right now. So ...
 
Well, time for us to load up the IDEs then :)
 
6:56 PM
I think it might be time to look at issue.cc/r3/1952 and its PR github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/82
It's an important performance fix, but it never got the attention it needed.
 
7:53 PM
posted on February 17, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] You also need to consider multi-scripts, which can be all in one language or in multiple languages. As long as all the dialects use length-embedding and comparable header block syntax, there should be no categorical reason why we can't have SCRIPT? just skip past non-Rebol scripts. For fully syntax-compatible dialects, even script-in-a-block embedding should work. Heterogeneous multi

 
8:45 PM
posted on February 17, 2014 by BrianHawley

Requested by Ladislav in http://issue.cc/r3/2005

posted on February 17, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] Implemented in https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/183

posted on February 17, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] #1973 and #2002 implemented instead of this one.

 
9:22 PM
posted on February 17, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] I think that this would be inappropriate when building block types, but appropriate all the time for string and binary types. So make that behavior the default, and don't make any /only option. This would make the treatment of unsets and nones consistent for these functions. Given that these functions just use APPEND, it might be best to make the change in behavior for INSERT and APP

posted on February 17, 2014 by abolka

[Comment] Related pull requests (in chronological order): https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/142 (Shixin's original series of adaptations) https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/178 (Ladislav's work on top of Shixin's) With the changes in 178, 64-bit builds are stable and on a par with 32-bit builds for day-to-day use.

posted on February 17, 2014 by abolka

[Comment] #{f0} / #{d0} is actually a case sensitivity issue. U+00F0 is LATIN SMALL LETTER ETH U+00D0 is LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ETH Therefore this is a duplicate of #1938.

posted on February 17, 2014 by abolka

[Comment] The crash is now fixed with merged PR#102. For now, none! is still part of the argspec and `browse none` is simply a noop (exits with unset!).

 
@GrahamChiu I'm happy to make the switch for the bot. Just curious as to why now as saphir also had https?
And welcome, back long time no see :-)
 
9:40 PM
posted on February 17, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] Don't support the more obscure formats of ISO8601, just the common, recommended formats that don't conflict with our other datatypes. Hyphens required in dates, colons required in times, no non-numeric time zones except the Z for UTC thing, no 2-digit years, no week dates or ordinal dates, and nothing from the standard that we don't support in the semantics of our date! or time! types

 
10:35 PM
Hi, I'd appreciate some help starting with Rebol. I downloaded atronixengineering.com/r3/downloads/… and was trying to follow Nick Antonaccio's tutorial which is meant for R2. The first example 'alert "Hello World!"' fails. But if I run the special function 'Demo' and try again afterwards a window pop-up. So, I wonder if there's another similar tutorial to learn from that is meant for R3.
 
@Luis You probably need to call load-gui before you can use any gui functionality
the demo executes that, so that's why you can do it afterwards
load-gui downloads the r3-gui.r3 file and does it.
 
@kealist Thanks! Indeed, the load-gui does the trick.
 
posted on February 17, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] I think that this was probably fixed by https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/151 but it needs testing.

 
@Luis Need any other help?
 
10:53 PM
@kealist In fact I do... In http://learnrebol.com/rebol3_book.html#section-1 REBOL [title: "Tiny Note Editor"]
do %r3-gui.r3
it is supposed to load the module that was downloaded before
(I think) but it gives an error:
 
So, that is the manual way of using load-gui. So you either use load-gui or download r3-gui.r3 manually and do it. (equivalent to running the script)
 
** Access error: cannot open: %r3-gui.r3 reason: -3
** Where: read either read-decode case load -apply- do
** Near: read source if find system/options/file-types type [data: de...
 
)
 
just delete that line and add load-gui
REBOL [title: "Tiny Note Editor"]
load-gui
view [
    a: area
    button "Load" on-action [attempt [set-face a read/string %notes.txt]]
    button "Save" on-action [write %notes.txt get-face a  alert "Saved"]
]
 
If the tutorial was a wiki we could improve it
 
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