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00:01
I think the thing is that if you're going to go darker, then having the text color not flip to white is difficult for readability. But if you do flip it then it's jarring. So maybe the lighter shift is better.
00:15
Designing a bikeshed, are we?
@gwailo59 Yeah, gotta work on that.
@HostileFork Give it a try...
00:31
@rgchris It works better for me. Maybe in the dark theme it could start out dark gray and go closer to black for the code.
00:50
Greetings @SomeKittensUx2666. Did you vote for the Red ad?
oh, of course!
Leading in clicks per day so far, and doing well on total clicks despite having fewer votes and getting in the rotation less often than the higher voted ones. Not having all that much obvious impact, so it looks like we have work to do on the "what people get to after they click". But still encouraging data.
News for me is that I've finally flipped the switch on my domain, no longer using WordPress but hosting it on my own VPS running a system of my own design. It isn't anything great just yet but the readability is much better. Working on redirecting dead links Google has, or what weird WordPress URL schemes I want to just mark as "410 Gone"
Ugh, WordPress.
We're using it for the work blog, despite my objections.
@SomeKittensUx2666 What's up with work, etc?
01:06
We do a lot of data analysis, for funzies and SEO we started blogging about football games. Coworker threw together a WP site because he's got 'loads of experience'
I agreed, on the stipulation that I'd never have to deal with it.
that lasted about three hours.
It's important to have a good URL. A lot of my "slugs" were pretty bad. I decided in the relaunch to actually go through the trouble of making all the redirects work. Got a rule in my head that no slug would be longer than 5 words, and even if it was just 6 and the word I removed was "a" I did it so that I could say "all the URLs have slugs with 5 words or fewer, separated by dashes". Anything worth doing is worth doing right, I guess.
Yeah. Currently trying to figure out how to spread that mentality at my company.
prevailing attitude is 'meh, it works on the one test case I tried, good enough'
It is a major nightmare to try and change these things once they've been done in a way you don't like.
@HostileFork At least the Y/M/D format should be easy enough to catch...
Could be worse!
01:22
@rgchris Yes, it's just that combining all these things together (the renames, with the rewrites for the dates, etc) as well as all the ancillary ways in which WordPress transcludes your content all sorts of places without excluding that copy from searching (at least back in the version I used) is a problem...
Also that Google had picked up my (unpublished!) temp launch before I'd ever given anyone but the W3C validator a link to it (do they get information from the validator, somehow?) and that was before the rename, so I use two 301 redirects to get you from the old URL to the new one. :-/ None of this is my idea of fun.
Did they get it from in here?
Nope. Hadn't posted here before it had already found out about it somehow.
So... what should I name my Rebol Disqus "library" on GitHub (very small at the moment, only supports getting thread IDs and posting comments). disqus-rebol ?
Risqus! (not)
I want to make it turnkey so that people can just post a comment from a command-line tool. Not sure what the best way to do that is. Probably to specify the comment you want imported in a file, with a config file separately holding the key? So what people would do is edit disqus-config.reb, then make a some-comment file, then say r3 post-comment.reb %disqus-config.reb %some-comment
I'd go with 'Rebol Disqus' or 'Disqus Rebol'. Don't think we have any particular precedent. JohnK has 'rebol-twitter' and I have 'rebol-tmbundle'.
01:35
(I still want us to start shipping the official binaries as simply rebol, with unofficial ones defaulting to a name like rebol-unofficial with a warning string)
@HostileFork My method for handling keys is to put a placeholder in the script header and check system/script/args or system/script/header for the key. That way, you have options for how to deploy the script.
do/args %disqus.reb [settings with #key]
do/args %disqus.reb load %disqus-config.reb
...or if the key is in the header...
do %disqus.reb
...etc...
@rgchris Do you have an example?
Ok, cool. I guess I will be diligent and try to clone that approach, thanks...
(search for 'settings:'—in there twice)
Should be the same paths for Rebol 3
 
1 hour later…
03:04
@RebolBot
settings: make context [a:] any [none [a: 10]]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-need-value.html
>> settings: make context [a:] any [none [a: 10]]
*** ERROR
** Script error: a: needs a value
** Where: make context
** Near: make object! blk
@rgchris Maybe I'm messing up. But I'm trying the bind to context trick and it isn't seeming to work. Any ideas?
@RebolBot do settings: make context [a: none] any [none [a: 10]]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> settings: [a: none] any [none [a: 10]]
== [a: 10]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> settings: make context [a: none] any [none [a: 10]]
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               integer!  10
Ah, missed the none! Thanks...
03:19
@rgchris Okay, so under this methodology, how do I affect the settings from a script that just calls do %disqus.reb? Looks like I can't write disqus/settings/api_key: {whatever} from outside. Do I have to provide a function?
You don't. do %disqus.reb is dependent on the setting being in the script header—which it might be if e.g. you place the script within a private environment. If you need to change the key on the fly, you could expose the settings object or bake an /auth refinement into your Disqus functions.
I suppose there are more ways to conceivably use an API than any one pattern can handle, I find this one the most flexible to start with.
Seems pretty good, but I do tend to want to just do a script and then work with it unmodified from its defaults from within another script.
So the do/args will let me do this...
Pretty much.
Got it. Okay. Neat!
03:43
@rgchris It's nothing to write home about, but it was enough to get my old comments from hostilefork.com onto blog.hostilefork.com. Still writing it up, but would of course appreciate any help in making it show better: https://github.com/hostilefork/rebol-disqus/blob/master/disqus.reb
Hm, tabs are messed up, fixing.
I'd like to avoid the "log in with browser, copy cookie" bit... but I imagine that is coming from some of the same reasons that RebolBot needs to do that.
Same with the api_key, which oddly seems not to be related to the api_key you can get when you register an app with them.
Good stuff! Will give it a look over...
In any case, given the fact that there are now officially zero clients of this API (my comment import is done), we can feel free to hammer on it a bit. All kinds of questionable stuff in there. One doesn't probably want a refinement with three parameters as a way of passing "author_name", "author_email", "author_url"...but I don't know enough about the idiomatic best practices here.
I don't have any problem if you want to include altwebform in the repository btw...
@rgchris Less chance of going out of date. :-) But yeah, back to the whole "need a module system" debacle.
Indeed.
Form Date is another—would shorten the iso-8601 date considerably...
(even though the format is not exactly Rebolish :)
@RebolBot
do http://reb4.me/r3/form-date
form-date/gmt now "%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%z"
03:57
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/r3/form-date form-date now "%c"
== "2014-01-26T04:57:45+01:00"
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/r3/form-date form-date now "%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%z"
== "2014-01-26T04:58:22+0100"
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/r3/form-date form-date/gmt now "%Y-%m-%dT%H:%M:%S%z"
== "2014-01-26T03:59:00+0000"
04:21
Sliderocket closed its services, so I'm left with broken links for the Red presentations. Does anyone know a good free online slides sharing service that accepts PPT as input?
@DocKimbel Google Docs? lifehacker.com/341041/…
Incidentally, can everyone start making slide decks in 16:9? HD is the new standard... phones, tablets, TVs, monitors.
@HostileFork Might be a good feature but Google Docs is blocked from China IIRC.
@DocKimbel You should ask your Chinese contacts what to use, and see if we can see it!
Everything not Google/Twitter/Facebook/Youtube is viewable from China. ;-)
04:45
Slideshare.net is pretty big and I believe it will import ppt
@rgchris if you had a module how would you manage settings? I ended up splitting the twitter config into a file for simplicity
@johnk Slideshare == SlideRocket :) They cut the free plans a few days ago.
Oh ..
@johnk Not certain that I've tried it—you can't do/args a module?
Probably, but I am not sure what the differences are
05:28
@DocKimbel Is CloudConvert any good? Could use that to convert your PPTs to something more embeddable...
 
2 hours later…
07:28
@RebolBot load {
    Red []

    print {
        Rebol []
        print "Hello World!"
    }
}
@RebolBot
load {
Red []

print {
Rebol []
print "Hello World!"
}
}
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> load {   Red []      print {   Rebol []   print "Hello World!"   }   }
== [Red [] print {   Rebol []   print "Hello World!"   }]
@RebolBot
load {Rebol [] {Hi there}}
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> load "Rebol [] {Hi there}"
== "Hi there"
@RebolBot
load {[{
Rebol []}]}
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> load "[{   Rebol []}]"
== ["   Rebol []"]
07:35
Okay, I'm stuck here. I have this giving me errors, but RebolBot seems to have something glossing over it in the interface I think.
Could someone make a file that says:

[{
Rebol []}]

and try loading it?
Without the newline it works, but with the newline I get an invalid string error, in the ordinary console.
@RebolBot
load/all {[{
Rebol []}]}
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> load "[{   Rebol []}]"
== ["   Rebol []"]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> load/all "[{   Rebol []}]"
== [["   Rebol []"]]
Meh—anyway: LOAD utilises the SCRIPT? function to ascertain the beginning of the Rebol file. The SCRIPT? function searches for ^/REBOL [
As the content of your script after the header is: }]}, it probably responds as invalid string.
LOAD/ALL will bypass the SCRIPT? function.
@RebolBot
load/all {[{^/Rebol []}]}
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-invalid.html
>> load "[{^/Rebol []}]"
*** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid "string" -- "}"
** Where: to case load
** Near: (line 1) }]
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> load/all "[{^/Rebol []}]"
== [["^/Rebol []"]]
I see. Hm. This is... efficiency, rather than searching for comments to skip, to assume all lines that don't start with Rebol are to be ignored? That doesn't sound very ecosystem-friendly; a Red script that generated Rebol code for instance.
It sounds like a shortcut for skipping comments, but I don't think the shortcut is worth tolerating files with lots of junk and then some line happens to start with Rebol...
07:48
An attempt to recreate the SCRIPT? function.
@rgchris Well, in my case my script header is Draem [] so that wouldn't help me. You've mentioned this custom loader concept, but I'd like to make sure that under the rules of the game a file with Draem [] wouldn't mistakenly be considered a Rebol script... whatever the conventions are, this seems like something that needs to be nailed down for the ecosystem in a more general way without preselecting the words to look for...
I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that only whitespace and semicolon-comment lines could precede either a word or path and then a block. Or something of that nature. Stickler that I am, I'd even be willing to say it serves better to be strict and say that there are no semicolon comments or whitespace before that point... that the first characters are a word or path followed by a block and your comments can't start until after that...
Not forgetting #!
@rgchris I always hated that one.
It'd be one for @BrianH or @Ladislav to weigh in on...
Spoke with Brian not too long ago, he said the usual of "things might be slowing down at work, should have more time..." ... the time seems to have either not come, or not be allocated this-a-way.
I was hoping that team Rebol could be foraging ahead and taking decisions like "should lit-word variables evaluate to be of type lit-word! or word!" and get those nailed down with tests and practice so that Red could just do whatever the consensus was. I'm at a bit of a loss to understand how to get that "train of reasoning" on track.
I still think the key is new users. Not necessarily because the new users will swipe in and save the day by suddenly reasoning through difficult design decisions, but because users (especially ones who are in business, and can pay people, like Atronix) drive attention.
09:05
@HostileFork - yes, most probably many of us expected, that by open-sourcing R3, there will be some "commitee", which will drive some decision further. So far, we can see open, but isolated attempts to take R3 further. The problem is, that some changes might have deep consequences, hence the reluctance to push it radically
I think, that in the end the process will be natural. If old gurus disappear and new ppl join, Rebol might change, upon the needs of those who actively use it. If it is good or bad, I don't know.
As for Red, Doc will surely weight new ideas to find some balance.
@pekr Well it's sort of a committee-in-absentia, and I'm sure @DocKimbel would appreciate findings/research/thinking given by those in the know...but is not going to wait on it. The default will be Rebol2 if advantages are not proven. I just hate to lose the opportunity to have Rebol3 be the petri dish for language improvements. So far Red is pushing more; with return values for functions, parse extensions, and having the FUNCTION/FUNC in the mainline.
yes, Doc is somehow on the Rebol2 side. But as he is a clever guy, he surely will study some R3 enhancements. And as can be seen, Red's PARSE is closer to R3, rather than R2. Yet, implementation wise, it is different from both.
Rebol has been very seat of the pants; our discussion above about how SCRIPT? work is yet another example... if you kick the tires a bit and really drink the Kool-Aid and try dialecting and doing serious DSL stuff, then you bump up against the walls. And they're not insurmountable walls (outside of being text files, but that's what makes the challenge interesting). So if people could get into deriving things from scratch, the way Ladislav would talk about Binding or Parse...that's good.
Also - R3 extension model is not of much use, having Red/System available, module system, IO and other things will be imo different too ...
I still believe, heartily, that Red should have a few major applications under its belt that are not Red before bootstrap; to provide more fluidity to react in the language based on discoveries met along the way while writing multithreaded webservers and such. It's easier to redesign when you're not tiptoeing on bootstrap.
Which is one of my reasons for thinking shoring up Rebol3 is a good idea. We could get Red running on Android, Haiku, whatever. And bringing everything into alignment is good overall.
09:19
@DocKimbel Time to switch to HTML5 presentation like imakewebthings.com/deck.js
and this product (non free but 30 day trial) : blogs.adobe.com/captivate/2013/10/…
@gwailo59 We have an Impress.JS dialect from @rgchris, too...
@HostileFork Great ! That was my next message... You are using some big data to predict what users are going to write ;) Maybe we can built a tool to convert PPT to HTML5
@gwailo59 I have been long hesitant to undertake the brutal and unpleasant task of moving my programming blog away from WordPress. Using WordPress was unpleasant. I created Draem as a sort of scraper hack, once to rescue a LiveJournal in mostly screenplay/script form... and then I adapted it to rescue this WordPress blog with a lot of code.
I'd been skeptical of Rebol because I do not like depending on closed source. Life is hard enough without running up against bugs you can't fix at any price. But then the open sourcing, now I depend upon Rebol for websites... so I'm in the game of trying to figure out how to make well-showing HTML5 sites. Embedded YouTube videos, slide decks, you name it.
@HostileFort @rgchris I feel impressed ! That's a kind of killer app. Great demo for for R2/R3/Red
@gwailo59 Did you ever see Machinarium? Written in a flash dialect of Rebol...
09:32
@HostileFork Yes of course. I know this game from @Oldes. Bought it yesterday on PS Vita. Great puzzle game.
Well, I always thought that was a missed opportunity, I thought that little robot could have made a good spokesperson for Rebol. If we'd have been able to get the artists to do a little scene or two for some modest donations, I think that would have been great advertisement.
Compared to how much work the game took, a little Rebol ad would be nothing.
I'm a pretty lousy illustrator, I can't hold a pencil straight. So I just do graphic design.
Hm, getting a message from the W3C link validator about my links to rebol.com:
406
The server isn't capable of responding according to the Accept* headers sent. This is likely to be a server-side issue with negotiation.
So it thinks there's something wrong with me linking rebol.com :-/ Anyone able to reproduce? It's complaining about even just http://rebol.com/
09:48
@HostileFork For Machinarium agree. But guess the cheat code ? Type REBOL... There was an article on Adobe about Rebol used for Flash adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/join-multiple-swf-files.html
@RebolBot does user HostileFork is some kind of AI ?
@gwailo59 Please continue.
@gwailo59 Slightly more capable with words than RebolBot, and a lot worse at adding and subtracting.
@RebolBot the number of chat, articles on blog, coding stuff can be human. Feel impressed. Is HostileFork Alec Sadler ?
@gwailo59 What are you trying to say?
@gwailo59 If you really want to wonder, Draem was designed for my dreams.
10:05
@HostileFork too much for me. Great story about Samantha West.
@gwailo59 No search hits on the body of data for me for Samantha West. To what do you refer? Oh, I see, not the dreams, you meant the name of the telemarketer. I didn't take that down.
@HostileFork I'm not a english spoken people. English literacy is a little hard for me at the moment. But great stuff to read.
Bots is bots and there's lots.
@HostileFork Yes telemarketer
Writing is on the wall, and it's one of the reasons I think we should be seeking terra firma... technology you can hold in your mind enough to check yourself to know what you're seeing. Too easy to get mixed up with gigabytes of unchecked code. What good is open source if you don't have the time or ability to read it?
10:14
@HostileFork I think it's a kind of mix. Sometimes, english text are hard to read. And of course, time is missing. As you talk before, ppl have family, need to sleep (when you have young children), need to drink beer...
@gwailo59 Well, we're all patient here. Rebol is certainly an international effort. Seems to have a bit to do with the Amiga not succeeding in the US but catching on abroad. So some of that community stuck. But I think it's not just about the inertia, but maybe the philosophy that caused the (relative) success in the first place.
Was just thinking about the Amiga 1000 and the Osborne 1, that I gave away. I don't regret giving them away, my closets were full. :-)
Hm, for those who don't know... this chat is forbidden by robots.txt.
Lines: 141, 307 chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/291/rebol-and-red
Status: (N/A) Forbidden by robots.txt
The link was not checked due to robots exclusion rules. Check the link manually.
So why are things from this chat showing up on Google?
I'd assumed the robots.txt said it was ok.
10:30
@HostileFork There's a good Rebol community of french spoken people. Maybe not dozen of people. But good people. The man who wrote lots of books about Rebol is french @Olivier
@gwailo59 Yes, Peter Wood translated his book... I think it is interesting to consider what we may lose by not having translation. Getting a little way further with statistical machine translation...
@HostileFork I don't think that you lose with the english translation. Peter done a great job. I have the 2 books and there are both goods. However, you miss his first book on Rebol : editions-eyrolles.com/Livre/9782212110173/rebol-programmation
@HostileFork Google translate is a good tool. Not perfect.
@gwailo59 Half an eye is better than no eye. :-) Need to take off for a bit, do keep visiting. If you can get my disqus.reb to do a post let me know, would be nice to have a library like the twitter.reb except for Disqus... got to start somewhere...
10:49
@HostileFork ok I'll a look tonight. I made an article on rebol-france.org about Chris RG twitter API. Have to do some family stuff.
 
3 hours later…
14:00
@rgchris Nice light theme Chris!
I received a message from Sunanda saying the he got a message from Google complaining about the number of errors on rebol.org. He asked me to pass it on to the team building the new Rebol community sites.

The gist of the message is that Google encountered thousands of errors on the site. The vast majority was due to Google flooding the site with requests and triggering the protections built-in to the system. He said last time it happened he complained to Google who apologised; this time he's kindly updated the system to relax the protection.
Personally, I feel it won't be a moment too soon when you launch the new web sites.
@rgchris Interesting web site, worth bookmarking. :-) But I really want to keep all the PPT animations, so a Flash-based viewer is my best option right now (unless someone can find a site that is able to render PPT in HTML5 retaining animations). I'm currently trying with SlideBoom.
14:36
I've move successfully the PPT presentations to SlideBoom.
 
3 hours later…
17:37
@HostileFork What does boilerplate delimiters refer to in your article? (the keywords or reserved symbols? not sure)And *lexical space is being waste * means "only one literal datatype——string"? I'm not familiar with the two terms.
I know in rebol one symbol can mean different things in different context.
18:00
@WayneTsui Having something translated is a good way of finding out when one is using wording that is probably too weird for most people. :-)
Each time you grab a character in a language and say "it always means this" then you are exhausting a limited resource. You then run out of other places to use it. For instance, in Rebol you get a PAIR! datatype if you type 0x10 which is zero by ten. This prevents us from being able to use something like 0xDECAFBAD to be a hexadecimal integer literal, because we'd need to retake the decimal digits too.
What is the "resource" that you "use up"? I'm calling that "lexical space"; I don't know if anyone else said it that way and I'm repeating it, or that's just what I call it. See lexical analysis on Wikipedia - the process of converting a sequence of characters into a sequence of tokens.
Rebol's rule about (generally) requiring you to separate things with spaces frees up lexical space, because it doesn't have to worry about a/b and a /b and a / b all meaning the same thing. It so happens that a/ b is not allowed at the moment (it registers as an "invalid path") but it could be given meaning as well.
A language that requires all those to be equivalent will "run out of lexical space" more quickly.
As for "boilerplate delimiters" I mean to say that in other languages, if you want to express an email address or html tag or web address or date, or keys in maps, you wind up doing it inside of a string. var stuff = {"background-color" : "black", "date" : "12-Dex-2012", "homepage" : "http://example.com"};
There's so much "boilerplate" in there that is unnecessary. stuff: [background-color: black date: 12-Dec-2012 homepage: http://example.com] Goodbye commas and quotes and semicolons, and hello to having your date literals validated at time of entry.
 
2 hours later…
20:29
Pathological cat usually runs if I point the camera at her. But I caught her by surprise.
very nice!
@pekr I'm in the house that we inherited from one of my grandmothers, and the furniture and other stuff here... while not in any way to my taste... does make for some interesting photo material.
21:17
@TonyD Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Sadly you won't be able to talk to us at present. You need a few more reputation points on Stackoverflow to join these chat rooms. If you answer some questions, or ask some, we might be able to help by upvoting you. In the meantime, have a look at a Rebol introduction.
21:55
bjb568, California
792 1 3 14
@bjb568 Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 792 so chat away!
 
1 hour later…
23:17
Hi @bjb568 and welcome. Your avatar looks like it is in good company with @hostileforks cat. Want to learn about red and rebol?

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