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12:09 AM
to-bin-core: func [v [integer!] bytes [integer!] /local bin][
    assert [find [1 2 4] bytes] ;-- more general, just checking...
    bin: debase/base next mold to-hex v 16
    reverse bin
    if bytes < length? bin [
        assert [parse skip bin bytes [[some #{FF}] | [some #{00}]]]
    ]
    copy/part bin bytes
]
More arguments for using spaces in the source. :-/
Replacement for the method of int-to-bin.r, works in R2 and R3 and does sanity checking.
The previous crank-and-churn-without-really-understanding variant was causing the majority of the bad values in the hex diff. Single bit flips from the sign.
Hm, well this isn't working either.
Okay, well it's going to need some looking at, I'll do it after dinner. bbiab
 
 
3 hours later…
3:47 AM
@earl Just got back from a birthday dinner and the singer from Die Krupps was part of the group, he sat across from me.
 
4:46 AM
@DocKimbel Another "tower reference" from culture: The Tower of Babel. "But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. The Lord said, 'If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them.'"
(Don't know about anyone else's God(s). But mine doesn't make people use lots of crappy languages, just to make things impossible!)
All right the routine is good, just needed another sanity check on the signed range. It's the caller that's bad.
 
5:49 AM
@BrianH if you're dealing with Unicode and casing, here's a little FYI that could be of importance, although it may be an esoteric point. In UTF8 and under the umbrella of "Unicode-in-the-large", two strings can be different cases of the same string but different byte lengths. (Perhaps of interest to @DocKimbel too.)
2
A: Are uppercase utf8 characters always the same number of bytes as their lowercase variants?

McDowellNo. Consider U+0069 "i" which has the octet value 69 in UTF-8. In the uppercase form U+0130 "İ" this code point forms the UTF-8 sequence C4 B0. Obligatory note: case is locale-sensitive.

Yo @GrahamChiu
 
6:11 AM
@HostileFork Yoyo @HostileFork
 
@GrahamChiu I used the mobile StackOverflow chat tonight when I was waiting for people to meet for dinner. Not bad.
 
Android? or iPod?
 
@GrahamChiu Android (Galaxy Nexus). Did you see this thing? repl.it
We. Needs. That!
 
true
very kewl
 
Dunno if you followed it, but I found a bug in a UTF8 string comparison function, that was only being used in a very narrow sense, and the bug was only exposed on a coincidence of a hash collision along with a matching prefix on the hashed string of the length. Quite obscure, but you'd be more likely to hit it with a short string. In this case length 4.
 
6:21 AM
good work on that
have you built a new version with this fixed?
 
@GrahamChiu I worked around it so I could continue, I just ignore the fact that the Compare_UTF8 function is broken and check the lengths of the strings explicitly after the hash collision. BrianH seemed to want to work on the "real" fix so I say "it's all yours" :-)
Got red porting, WebOS porting, repl.it ... there's lots of things I can do which aren't tweaking the unicode guts of raw C code in Rebol. :-)
 
I was out of town most of today .. checked in using IOS but it has that screen refresh issue
Did you mention the tower of Babel and so is that why god visited?
all those languages are compiled on JS
so that rules out rebol
 
@GrahamChiu Hard to tell. If so, God operates outside of time, since I said it afterward. But I guess that's a rumor I've heard about 'im.
 
@HostileFork I saw you talking to @GOD ?
 
@GrahamChiu Compiled from C to JS, effectively via a virtual machine and LLVM. Hence it could be a target for Rebol. I haven't looked into it, but the question is how this will interact with things like network calls/etc. Probably a lot of things will have to be #ifdef'd out. But I haven't begun looking into it.
 
6:34 AM
so, neat trick .. but of what value?
 
@GrahamChiu You get a "Try Rebol online" that is, in theory, 100% compatible. You do not have to worry about providing sandboxing or killing processes where someone makes an infinite loop because all they're doing is hanging their own browser. The virtual session can retain state between calls because the state is held in the VM running the interpreter. Lots of value.
@GrahamChiu And if you really wanted to, you could proxy this so that you could have a Rebol instance running in the browser to run your scripting code on the client side.
Again, bear in mind that it's not going to let you read files off the filesystem or any of that.
It would be sandboxed and limited to that which JavaScript can do.
@GrahamChiu Some 20 year old who decided to use the name GOD. I think I saw on a previous question that he'd changed it from "oak". Anyway, he dropped in. I'm not really an anthropomorphic fork either, so I'm not going to get on anyone's case for a weird name or avatar. If it's outside of StackOverflow's policies they can deal with it, not my problem.
 
Can't think of what I'd use it for though
run altme in the browser?
I mean rebol chat :)
 
The uses aren't necessarily all that common, but I do think for online learning how to work with the basics like parse/etc. it would be nice. A lot of people are skeptical of installing executables, or even disallowed by the policies on the machines they run...at school, in libraries, at work.
Or maybe they're on an iPad or some other platform no decent Rebol exists for yet.
Or a WebOS
And want to learn.
Kaj's "Try Rebol" discards states between calls. You can give it a line of Rebol, but the next line you give it will just run a fresh interpreter.
This is solvable with server side mechanisms, timeouts, etc...but again, you wind up having to figure out how to handle all kinds of messy cases just to give people a tutorial sandbox. They say while [true] [print "Hi."] and you've got to have an answer for it. Session management, knowing which request is coming from which user via cookie, it's annoying.
Not to mention security bugs, where maybe you did something wrong or a bug in Rebol didn't properly protect your filesystem from people running within a Rebol instance on your actual server.
 
that reminds me of the old days in rebol
we would have 100s of zombie dns processes running in the background
 
But this is a case of something that should be "easy" (well nothing's ever "easy") in Rebol but perhaps not as easy in Red, because it's leveraging some kind of LLVM thing I think.
 
6:45 AM
and the Host would email us and complain that we were in breach of TOS
 
Anyway, if you saw my FAQ update I'm still trying to push that we have a place to do some damage control and expectation setting should sudden interest come. Got to have the story straight and a way to do triage. Our drop-ins are guinea pigs.
 
@HostileFork Apparently Try Topaz doesn't like that line...
 
Javathcript - javascript with a Lisp .. funny
 
But it kills my browser, not my server :)
 
@rgchris I should hope so. :-)
 
6:49 AM
@GrahamChiu not at all?
Weren't you trying to replicate the VID experience in HTML—how much easier would that be if the callbacks you defined in Rebol were executed as-is?
 
"For the moment, it is theorized (note passive voice) " ... I think this should read "For the moment, I, HostileFork, believe"
 
As a platform, a browser window has a different set of quirks—but they are in desperate need of dialects et al as the desktop/shell.
 
@rgchris I would think the interpreter would be sandboxed
 
I wouldn't expect otherwise.
 
@GrahamChiu There clearly is a communication wire between the root browser w/JavaScript and the interpreter...otherwise how could the console work?
 
6:55 AM
But it would have access to some local storage (as defined by HTML5), some network calls (XMLHttpRequest) and crucially the user interface.
 
someone would have to show me dom manipulation from the console ...
 
Replace <canvas> with draw!
Wow, that really did mess up my browser!
 
eh? what are you doing?
 
Tried an infinite loop in Topaz.
 
and what does that do?
 
7:05 AM
Pisses Chrome off.
@GrahamChiu What would you want it to look like?
 
the view dll suited me fine.
I wrote a number of scripts that used the view browser plugin
 
I do some DOM-Like manipulation already.
With my own model, not W3C's.
 
but can you manipulate the dom which is hosting the interpreter?
 
Yes, you're building on top of JavaScript—you can build on all the APIs that JS has access to.
 
I didn't realise that topaz allowed that
 
7:12 AM
It would, but it's not that far along.
 
@rgchris I think time would be better invested at the moment in the repl.it thing. But are you not a systems-level C/LLVM type tinkerer?
 
I agree, but sadly I'm not.
 
@rgchris Do you know CoffeeScript? I know of it, but trying to read that I'd have to go look at some kind of documentation first.
e.g. if we could get you a Rebol 3 repl.it implementation, think you could do something with it?
 
I've seen references to coffeescript and clojurescript
 
@HostileFork I don't know coffeescript, looks interesting as a concept...
@HostileFork You mean like a 'Try Rebol'? Possibly—but I'd far rather apply it to web apps.
 
7:20 AM
Just because we don't have a Try Rebol doesn't mean we can't work on the script. Is DocBase dead and everyone likes GitHub now? Should I move: Interactive Tutorial Script off DocBase? Would people help with it?
I will point out that I had something kind of working, and Kaj did that thing he did and refused to collaborate with me, which made me mad because what he was doing was (in my opinion) an anti-marketing tool.
Wrote that a while ago, I didn't know there was even an if/else
 
Kaj ... paraphrasing .. I can't release the source to try rebol because it's tied to my closed source CMS
reboltutorial was looking for a try rebol on his own site ... which is now gone.
 
Reboltutorial's enthusiasm was not properly channeled.
 
A pity he didn't join us in chat ... as far as I know, he kept his identity secret
 
@HostileFork I would certainly help test, I'd be happy to host if it was fully client-side, I'd point anyone and their mother to it, I'd contribute code if there were anything I could offer, I'd offer any CSS assistance.
R3 powering the web—server and client. It's the dream...
 
I think Easy VID was the equivalent to this tutorial
 
7:29 AM
I want to say Rebol in Ten Steps hooked me.
 
@rgchris Well like I say, I imagine the main issue will be how much the sandbox is a "compile time" issue (e.g. you have to #ifdef out network calls, vs, just trying and failing) vs an easy "you can't do that particular thing" when you try it. I have a feeling it's going to be a lot of source tweaks to chop out parts of the system, and that will take time. It will also be a bunch of #ifdef REPL_IT stuff.
The other interpreters are lucky because the kernel is unambitious in terms of the sandbox, you need to load a library to talk http... it probably just says "nope" in the REPL and they have a chokepoint for "nope"
But it can probably be done tactically, and get (for instance) full parse functionality in the browser.
 
Just compile your own version of r3
 
Another way of looking at it is that "a small, complete, standalone interpreter...which does not rely on DLLs or installation" doesn't apply. You can imply certain APIs to be present and somewhat consistent.
(IE aside)
 
@GrahamChiu I got derailed, so WebOS is delayed. I think the WebOS port is good for the reasons we have outlined. I will leave it to you--which do you think adds more value for the project for me to look at next, a repl.it compile or a WebOS version? If you had a WebOS version, would you go try and drum up enthusiasm with them for what you had done with it?
 
Want to do an HTTP port? Well, it's just a wrapper for XMLHttpRequest.
 
7:34 AM
I think WebOS will be much easier
But I'm not sure how active it is, you're the only person I've heard mention it in years.
 
I'd always say, grab the low hanging fruit
 
Can't access the filesystem, but there are other forms of local storage available.
 
HP is still employing a team of developers for webOs .. maybe there's a plan there!
 
@GrahamChiu Well, I guess I'll ask the "what if". You have a Rebol 3 interpreter, no GUI, just the basics... whatever I/O that you can get through POSIX. What to do with this on WebOS? It's not a great replacement for shell scripting because the file API and the codecs and everything are a bit weird. It's hard to say what it's precisely killer for, other than parse, or a dialect of your own invention to replace something kludgier.
 
I don't know about those other languages ... but Rebol is a cinch to install. It took me over a few days to get a working rails environment which still wouldn't run that Shapado stuff
So, as a promotional exercise .. I don't see a lot of value in the repl.it stuff
 
7:41 AM
@GrahamChiu Building web interfaces with dialects and PARSE—how can you not see value in that?
 
@rgchris I starred it, but I don't know what works...my point is just to create a cushion in case Rebol/Red ever do get popular where modern open-source programming culture will come in and be able to have a live and adaptive experience. Or as I might tell @GrahamChiu, "thou shalt not worship graven images" :-)
 
I don't mean no value in rebol in javascript, I mean a demo for the sake of a demo
 
@GrahamChiu no worries—I understood that repl.it would get you a 'compiled' language in JS, not just an interpreter.
 
Making an awesome page is not the same as having awesome people who can triage and guide.
 
@HostileFork would that not also apply to Android and every other platform for which there is no GUI?
 
7:46 AM
@GrahamChiu I honestly am not entirely certain what the driver behind the Android port is. I actually sort of feel like there is a Rebol space and a Red space, and that seems more to me like a Red space...
I feel like Rebol's established nature and portability should be hardened further, debugged, and stabilized as the bootstrap core. It already bootstraps Red. Let Red take more risks while Rebol takes fewer and gets purified.
If Rebol never had a GUI and merely became the baseplate of Red...as meticulous C code...I'd think that a fine purpose for it.
It's not an either/or, because there is Rebol/Core
I just want to bring everyone into the fold, have Boron voluntarily close shop. Topaz disappears. They bring the best of what they have to Rebol and/or Red. I am not going to make this "Rebol (and Red, and Boron, and Topaz)" because to me there are only two horses in this race.
And I don't want to design any more icons, either. :-)
I have one more, the emergency "if we have to fork Rebol and have a new name" concept, recently somewhat undermined but I still like it.
 
@HostileFork Topaz is still born.
 
@GrahamChiu Well why not just fold it all into Red?
Red's JS backend.
 
because we don't like all our eggs in one basket
and Red is not there yet .. it still has a long way to catch up to Rebol
 
Two baskets will do, and we can have forks of those baskets. We will soon because integration rate on R3 master is just not viable, so rebolsource/r3 or similar will have to become the new sub-master. We won't submit pull requests that wait a month for review and integration, because we can't.
 
I think Carl interrupted Andreas' wait ....
Otherwise he would have done this already as we discussed in 2010
In this country Carl would be arrested for neglect of his child
There are rumours that Samsung is going to bring out a webOS based TV set ... wouldn't it be great if we were ready?
 
8:00 AM
@GrahamChiu Heh. Well in a metaphysical sense, perhaps he is guilty. For a funny story of a dream before I knew who Carl Sassenrath was: Carl Sarranack and Powdered Barbecue Sauce. The name is awfully close, isn't it? I don't know what any of it means, I just report data. :)
 
LG, not Samsung
 
@GrahamChiu Well I will tell you what, after the Red pull request (who knows when, hopefully not too long from now), I will spend a day of due diligence learning about WebOS to know what Rebol on it would mean or involve. I'll estimate then. If you have a compelling case for your interest in WebOS, perhaps you should make a blog so it is understandable why someone would today be interested as you are.
I already understand that to work with WebOS on my machine, I will need to set up a Linux VM which will then become the environment in which the simulator is run as an app, which will have the WebOS in it. So a VM in a VM.
Goal is therefore a Rebol binary compiled inside the first VM for the inner VM. Which sounds like it's kind of par for the course, that there are other things packaged up this way.
Presumably, your tablet with WebOS could run this binary.
As the inner-VM would be ARM-based I'd guess.
 
I know a few people with HP Touchpads
( they all work for HP :) )
I do think we need an alternative to Android/Google ... who's influence is pervasive. I dislike the adverts that track my likes and dislikes. Google knows more about me than I know myself!
We need a modern OS free of the influence of MS, Google, Facebook etc
 
@GrahamChiu Well as in the X-Files, "Trust no One." :-) There are good people everywhere. Even one guy at Goldman Sachs is decent...
 
that's a ruse
there's no good guys at even of these institutions
the good guys as a point of morality would have quit!
 
8:15 AM
Brian (@HostileFork), I think you're not thinking about the node.js possibilities wrt a Rebol compiled to JS. I think there you'd be able to access quite a few of the functions a browser would block. And Graham, this would be perfect for WebOS, I think.
For client only use, I think the size of the script (I'm guessing it'd be significantly larger than the native executable) would place it at the very high end of JS libraries.
 
@Adrian Yes, the funny thing is the size people put up with for YouTube videos and movies is turning this stuff on its head. Intuition starts to not line up with reality. I gave a talk a looong time ago: Virtualization and the Integrated Circuit: Looking ahead
 
Not sure it would be something that too many people would go for that. On the server-side, though - you could do some really nice things with this and Node.
@HostileFork It's a different thing there if you can show the rest of a page and start streaming.
 
Welcome back, @God. Graham Chiu has many questions about your nonexistence. :-)
 
There is no god ... I only see 4 of us in this room
 
Proof that God exists!
@Adrian I was helping some friends recently whose web developer had gone into a coma :-( and he had been taking care of their website. They didn't know anything. The CMS he had been using was called webEdition, and it was an odd mix of PHP on the server side and requiring a full-blown Java on the client side to manage your content management dashboard.
@Adrian You would be surprised what people are willing to put up with when it solves their problem.
HostileFork, Austin, TX
10.3k 1 18 42
god@localhost :-)
 
8:29 AM
I wonder what sort of performance drop you'd see in a Rebol on JS vs native.
 
Why is on my profile. :-(
 
@HostileFork .. it's true. I run VMs just to run a single application
 
@Adrian Browser-dependent. They've optimized certain scenarios.
 
I fire up EC2, start the vm, run the app and then close it down again
And that's all because Linux is crazy with incompatibilities
 
I've mentioned before my love for snapshots, first cultivated with Super Snapshot. It's like that show about the girl who had an alien father who could freeze time, that I didn't watch. :-)
Out Of This World is an American fantasy sitcom about a teenage girl who is half alien, which gives her unique supernatural powers. It first aired in syndication from September 17, 1987 and ended on May 25, 1991. During its first season, the series was originally part of NBC's much-hyped Prime Time Begins at 7:30 campaign, in which the network's owned-and-operated stations would run first-run sitcoms in the 7:30-8 pm time slot to counterprogram competing stations' game shows, sitcom reruns and other offerings. Out of This World was rotated with the original series Marblehead Manor and...
I run practically everything in Linux VMs. My only killer apps on the OS/X host are ScreenFlow, ForkLift, and SourceTree.
 
8:38 AM
The smallest Emscripted Ruby build is 3.5M, I see that on CoffeeScript.org, the CoffeeScript include is 176k.
 
3.5 MILLION bytes...!
 
jQuery (Minified) is 94k.
 
I'm all for bean counting when it comes to computational intent, but you're not counting the atoms in your chip.
An LLVM to JS in-browser Rebol would be about as performant as Java. Except more secure. It's not "the" answer but could lead to some interesting experiments.
 
huge sizes on the back end don't matter - with Java you can have huge deployments
but in a browser you don't want to see pages being built if you can avoid it
 
So is Gabriele dead-set on Topaz or is he going to come chat with us and make a Red JS backend? :-/
As a compiler, Red has a better chance than trying to build an interpreter to run on a JS VM to run Rebol...which isn't to say that making a Rebol JS repl.it is a bad idea. It's worth taking a crack at.
 
8:58 AM
Gabriele hasn't done any work on Topaz for months
 
In any case, I'll catch up with you guys later...it's time for sleep here. But for whatever it is worth, I'm glad you're coming back and I think that if we keep refining the message then there's a real chance for these ideas to "catch on". It'd also be great if we were known not only for being deep hackers but very friendly, so if we can be the best of both worlds as a community that's a bonus.
 
If you followed his posts on G+, you'd see why
 
@GrahamChiu Quick summary?
(I have dropped off social networking)
 
personal junk
 
Well I am dealing with a bit of flux here myself. Self-imposed deadline for transition... 4 months...
 
9:01 AM
and this is where I miss private personal messaging on this platform
 
@GrahamChiu Well, if everyone edited the wiki and put up their skype address or whatever
We could kick over to that when appropriate.
 
heh .. I don't use skype much if at all
they keep taking my credit away
 
@GrahamChiu Should be free for VoIP....
I put some skype and Gchat info. Personal conversations should be personal, but I'd advise anyone to of course realize that unless you are using some kind of cryptographic system, Google or Microsoft or whoever can read it. StackOverflow chat is just particularly brazenly public. Which I like because, at least you know what you're dealing with.
 
Altme is encrypted .. but not on store
 
Radical transparency is a phrase used across fields of governance, politics, software design and business to describe actions and approaches that radically increase the openness of organizational process and data. Its usage was originally understood as an approach or act that uses abundant networked information to access previously confidential organizational process or outcome data. History and Uses Modern usage of the term radical transparency coincided with increased public use of Information communications technologies including the internet. Kevin Kelly argued in 1994 that, “in the n...
 
9:06 AM
I've been encouraging people to use the web-public channels on altme ... but ...
 
@GrahamChiu I think that privacy and transparency are competing desires. Both have their place. But we're talking about trying to solve a technical problem, most of the time. And sometimes how to chop up trees, but what good is being private about those things going to do?
 
and the same for altme private groups .. also mostly about solving technical problems
 
We've got a cool tool here, others working on them, a fairly decent mobile interface, and I can hardly think of a better ephemeral chat solution we could ask for. AltME/etc should shift to just internal discussions. Nothing about the weather, no Q&A that should be refined and wiki'd for everyone. It should be the curecode of chat.
(If it is to exist at all.)
Any and every social channel should be stripped out and blocked from AltME. Any private messaging should be done through whatever that person uses...Facebook, Gmail/Gchat/Skype.
AltME does two things better than StackOverflow chat: it has "channels" at a single-level hierarchy, and it has "privacy". But it does about 1,000 things worse. Privacy can be obtained by knowing the person you want to talk to and how they want to talk to you (heck, get their number, pick up a phone). And there are other tools to attack one's interest in "catching up" or "topics" in a chat environment.
 
Altme does 3 things better
People like it better than this chat :)
Just thinking of the people who have come here from altme and have not returned
 
 
2 hours later…
11:29 AM
@HostileFork There is a Rebol space and a Red space, but it's not split up the way you think. Rebol is inherently interpreted, you can't really compile it without losing features. Red is compiled, though there will be an interpreter on top for some features people are missing, and theoretically a JIT.
The thing is, there are some platforms where you can make your own JIT. There are some where the only JIT is for another language. There are some where JIT is for another language, but you can extend it with native code plugins. There are some where no JIT is available at all, only precompiled code.
The mobile-vs-desktop-vs-tablet distinction doesn't matter, this platform structural difference is all that matters.
On platforms where you can make a JIT, a compiler with JIT-compiled dynamism works great. Or if that same platform has the resources to support interpretation then that can work too, and mighe be easier. It's a toss-up.
On platforms where the only available JIT is for another language, you need to compile to that language. If you compile an interpreter to that language, it probably won't be fast, especially if you use a tool like Enscriptem. That means you need a compiler that can output that language.
On platforms where the only JIT is for another language but you can make native plugins, you could port a native interpreter as a native plugin. Whether this is a better approach than the compiler above depends on the overhead of the marshalling interface and the limits of the plugin API.
On a platform where only precompiled code is available, if you want to have a dynamic language and you can afford the overhead you need an interpreter. If you can't afford the overhead on such a platform then you need a precompiler with no interpretation involved.
If you need an interpreter, you would be best served by a language that is optimized for interpretation, and that is Rebol. Rebol's language semantics are optimized for fast interpretation, not for compilation. If you were wondering Rebol's space, that is it.
If you need a compiler with some JIT dynamism tricks, then you need Red, and that version of Red can fake more of Rebol's semantics. Win-win.
If you need a precompiler, you need the original proposal for Red that didn't include an interpreter at all, just type inference. No options. The current plan for Red where they dropped that type inference feature won't work. If you don't get that feature back then you're SOL.
Btw, that last category includes iOS.
 
@BrianH Doesn't AppStore now have relaxed rules wrt interpreters? IIRC, they are allowed as long as all the code is in the app package and not downloaded in any way.
 
Interpreters are allowed in only when the interpreter itself has been approved separately, but they are still too slow on most iOS machines. And there are no documented policies for what gets an interpreter allowed or rejected, worse than the regular app store policies. And such interpreters are extremely limited.
If you have to code for iOS, the best approach is to make sure that as much of your language as possible can be statically compiled, and that the rest that must be interpreted can't possibly load code from external sources.
It is notable that iOS is the only Mono platform that can't support the DLR, and so doesn't support dynamic languages or much of Linq.
Python is pretty useless on that platform too.
 
11:47 AM
@BrianH That fits well with Red where only tiny parts needs interpretation, most of user apps will run fully native precompiled code.
 
This is why I was so interested in Red, moreso in your original proposal.
@DocKimbel Make sure the rest can run without a JIT, because those are not allowed, not even for JavaScript outside Safari.
 
There is some simple inference in Red, but not as extensive and deep as planned in the beginning. Such sophisticated inference engine would take time to get right and implies very slow compilation times that don't fit at all with the JIT requirements.
@BrianH The Red interpreter can replace JIT- compilation when required.
 
@DocKimbel Sorry, did I mention no JIT? No JIT on iOS, so no JIT requirements. Infer away.
 
@BrianH I mentioned JIT requirements for general case. For specific platforms like iOS, interpreter will save the day. ;-)
 
WinRT apps can't do their own JIT either, they can only use the JS or.NET JITs. So WinRT means either Rebol itself or a Red-like language that compiles to JS or .NET bytecodes. Similar restrictions for WinPhone7 or really old Android.
 
11:57 AM
Does WinRT allow native apps? Anyway, we can use some bridging with .Net VM to workaround those limitations.
 
By WinRT I mean the runtime for former-Metro apps on Windows 8 or Windows RT. Not sure about WinPhone8 JIT policies, but I know they have a .NET JIT, and full native apps. Don't know about native plugins for Silverlight apps. Silverlight in the browser is .NET only.
WinRT allows native apps but they can't JIT, and must be cross-platform to be accepted in the store. That makes the best approach for Red to compile to .NET. For Rebol, the best approach is to write a host wrapper in their C++ extension and use the existing C core.
 
12:40 PM
@earl, updated the set tests to include the missing semantics. Enjoy!
 
 
3 hours later…
3:50 PM
@GrahamChiu "People like it better than this chat :)" => self-selection bias. "People who put up with and have used AltME for many, many years saying 'nothing else is suitable'?" despite the existence of many other public tools on the web? Okay... but... that's not all people.
How do I use AltME on my phone? Where's my oneboxing? How do I get images inline? How do I permalink any message, how fast is the searching?
Selection bias is a statistical bias in which there is an error in choosing the individuals or groups to take part in a scientific study. It is sometimes referred to as the selection effect. The term "selection bias" most often refers to the distortion of a statistical analysis, resulting from the method of collecting samples. If the selection bias is not taken into account then certain conclusions drawn may be wrong. Types There are many types of possible selection bias, including: Sampling bias Sampling bias is systematic error due to a non-random sample of a population, causing some mem...
What is the feature log of added features to AltME? How quickly is it evolving? Who's doing that evolution, and is it investment in more Rebol 2 code when the time taken could be used on Rebol 3 instead?
Where's the user scripts library where in a matter of minutes someone can change things like the way code is seen?
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Q: Highlight Code in Chat - Highlights <code> elements contained in chat messages

George Edison Screenshot About Inspired by this question, I have developed a UserScript that highlights code elements in chat messages so that they stand out more on the page. Simply install the script and your messages will be automatically highlighted. License The script is released under the MIT Lic...

These "people" need to do a little more thinking about how much they're giving up for how little they're actually getting.
And also realize that AltME is simply not going to fly with anyone new entering the community.
 
4:11 PM
@BrianH These are technical details, and you're right... and it's important that you @DocKimbel are talking about that. But I'm talking about yet another aspect, which is how individuals react to a technology they are given, based on visceral reactions.
Same applies to me: If you showed me a web project and it served my purposes, but said "...and it's written in PHP..." that would matter--to me. I would not learn how to install or maintain it. I'd pick something else. There will be different selection factors of this nature between Rebol and Red. Also, I believe things like the repl.it will happen sooner for Rebol than Red.
 
4:25 PM
Hey @dt2.
 
 
2 hours later…
6:02 PM
BrianD (@HostileFork) meant to say earlier that code under the chat title might scare people away rather than attract them. If we put up anything it should at least be nicely formatted.
 
@Adrian Well I'm open to suggestions, we're just trying things out.
I could make you a room owner if you got 100 rep points and you could experiment. :-)
 
sure, the idea is good, but if SO doesn't support nice looking code for the moment, maybe we should forget it
 
room topic changed to Rebol (and Red): Join the rebellion against software complexity! Rebol is now Apache 2.0 open source! rebolsource.net/go/so-chat-faq [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [rebol3]
 
Have you tried that code styling script that was posted?
 
@Adrian No, because I am still trying to see things from the experience of an unmodified user...one of the StackOverflow people liked the idea and it seemed like he was thinking it should go in main chat. Did you try it?
 
6:05 PM
yeah, it looks nice
 
Well let's hope they put it in for everyone.
Until they do, I'm still using bold.
 
the scripts can easily be disabled if you want to see things unmodified
 
@Adrian Speaking of intimidating vs. attracting, please feel free to hack on the FAQ etc. I'm starting a push to go out and discover disconnected/disillusioned Rebol fans.
I would like us to have enough traffic that it is judicious to split out a Rebol language discussion vs. Rebol dev channel. Right now if we did that, the traffic would not be enough to be lively.
 
Really? Using what methods?
scrape out old email addresses and try to find the owners?
 
@Adrian Seeing who has mentioned Rebol on Twitter and writing at (@) them, Googling people...
Going over old email.
 
6:11 PM
I would think that the early mailing list might be a good source.
 
@Adrian Well, we've got to get the basics right for bringing new people in, and AltME is not it. I'm having to drag the SteamPunk luddites off of it kicking and screaming...instead of thinking the "right" answer is to port AltME to Rebol 3 GUI and try and feature match SO. :-/
I know I've kind of repeated this now a few times, and I know you read the logs, so what do you think of repl.it ?
 
love it
I actually started looking at trying out to set up the required clang and llvm under Ubuntu last night in order to just see what kind of stuff pops up with no modification.
 
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Q: Is there a summary of the differences in binding behaviour between Rebol 2 and 3?

AdrianThe current in-depth documentation on variable binding targets Rebol 2. Is there a summary of differences between Rebol 2 and 3 available anywhere? I haven't seen anything after a cursory search.

 
@Adrian My bets are that the issue of Rebol's core of dependence on networky APIs and such are going to be the problem.
But I don't know.
@Adrian Despite skepticism expressed by @GrahamChiu I think this would be very, very useful.
 
6:27 PM
this might be relevant:
 
Hm, well if they have hooked this stuff up to websockets, it might work better than I thought.
 
Don't know if you've seen me ask @dt2 about cloud9 and Rebol. He mentioned a while back that you can use Rebol there. It's actually a pretty good online IDE that allows for collaborative coding. He seems to be ignoring/not noticing my asking for more details.
Anyhow cloud9 is pretty cool - you should register and try it out. The IDE is OS and we might be able to host a version ourselves where repl.it (or a subset of it) is integrated, so that you could just have a new user pop on there with you for a quick tour.
 
@Adrian I'll put it on the list. :-)
Heh... someone uploaded the entire of one of my childhood influential computer movies to YouTube... Electric Dreams - I especially like this scene...
Hm, it won't onebox a YouTube video with a seek time.
room topic changed to Rebol (and Red): Join the rebellion against software complexity! rebolsource.net/go/so-chat-faq [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [rebol3]
 
6:54 PM
room topic changed to Rebol (and Red): The rebellion against software complexity! rebolsource.net/go/so-chat-faq [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [rebol3]
@earl : kind of want the link to fit in the chat header. Any chance that rebolsource.net/faq could go (for now) to the wiki?
 
7:11 PM
@Feeds I'm on it.
 
@rgchris Techno-shaman that I am, I had a vision. No peyote involved. But it was of the phrase "Rebol forces" and the idea of one of those little Linux penguins that are so popular with a sword and a shield. Here is a hack job of the kind of thing I saw:
That guy's a little too Rambo to use a shield. But you get the idea.
 
7:48 PM
Quite. Knife should be in his teeth.
 
@HostileFork You'll find more appropriate Tux shield-wearing warriors here.
 
@rgchris Well you guys get the idea. :-) Anyway, you have to think about what the kids like these days.
I mean, simple and hacky as that graphic is, it would get more attention than the current rebolforces.com
And I did that in 10 minutes.
@DocKimbel I was re-watching that scene with Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen today...
 
If Allen were to revive RF, we'd spiff it up some. That design goes back aways...
 
Funny that the way we all think is very much about invisible structures to most people.
Invisible machines with parts moving in infinite dimensions... :-)
@rgchris Well all these things are out there. They should be spiffed or scrapped.
 
@HostileFork Ah those damn temporal interferences, they keep preventing me from fixing bugs before they appear! ;-)
 
8:02 PM
@rgchris Also, penguins don't have teeth.
@DocKimbel Let's hope all us technologists can make friendly AI before humanity self-implodes. It's a race against time...
Double challenge: make AI, and make it like us. I actually think the second part is the hardest.
 
@HostileFork That makes me think that we could make a nice 3D animation for the Red ToH logo with pieces flying around and then assembling with one another.
 
@DocKimbel Well let's start with making the Red or Red/System first "Hello World" style demo a towers of hanoi solver in the console.
Then we'll subcontract to Pixar. :-)
 
@HostileFork AI are the future of mankind, indeed, if humanity doesn't disappear before building them. They shouldn't be like us, they have to be way better, retaining only the "best" parts of humanity and rejecting the rest.
 
@DocKimbel "If only you could perceive time as I do." :-) Yes, it is true.. here.
But there's a lot more than here, it's just an outpost.
This woman rode a manatee. Claimed she didn't know it was illegal. Imagine the human/AI legal structure. :-/
 
Towers of Hanoï solver: indeed, a must have for Red, and it could be rendered nicely even in text-mode.
@HostileFork AIs, once mature, will prevail rapidly, it will be like Homo Sapiens vs Neanderthal.
 
8:17 PM
@DocKimbel Kids like dinosaurs. In fact, lots of people like dinosaurs. And as Perry Farrell said "We'll make great pets"
Cats actually rule the Internet, I learned.
@DocKimbel Sounds good, glad you're liking the idea. You noted the Babel tower "one common language" comment, I assume...
There is that whole "if you want something done right, do it yourself" principle. And I'm tempted to buy decent 3-D modeling software (something better than Sketchup which is what I made the Rebol logo in). But I'd really rather have a fanatical artist do a great cross-platform job on the icons. I do not think we have anyone better than I am in our current ranks, though.
Hence recruiting. :-) KK did a good job on that closed captioning, dunno if you saw.
Hello again @ShaquinTrifonoff ... we've updated the FAQ so it's maybe more clear.
 
@HostileFork OK
 
@HostileFork No I haven't, is it online already?
 
@DocKimbel Should be on by default, if not let me know.
 
@HostileFork You could use Blender, I will bring Red to it when possible, as an alternative scripting language (Python is the default one).
@HostileFork Great job!
 
@DocKimbel Thank KK.
 
8:28 PM
@HostileFork Right! Thank you KK!
 
@DocKimbel On the other hand, you can thank me for the audio processing, editing, and painstaking process of making the main video. :-)
The other video(s) didn't exactly...sell Red. :-)
@DocKimbel Blender is a toy, it's the Microsoft Paint of 3-D. There are proprietary tools in the industry that wipe the floor with it. I dislike this, and you will notice my attitude is very much about putting myself in the mind of a kid with no money and no connections (which I once was), so I don't want such kids today to go through what I did.
I'm actually an AI, but don't tell anyone. (If you did, they wouldn't believe you, so I guess you can tell anyone you want.) But I've got a certain agenda about correcting problems as demonstrated in the above videos...the first is not "meta", the second is "meta".
 
@HostileFork rebolsource.net/go/so-faq should fit
 
room topic changed to Rebol (and Red): The rebellion against software complexity! rebolsource.net/go/so-faq [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [rebol3]
room topic changed to Rebol (and Red): Rebel against software complexity! rebolsource.net/go/so-faq [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [rebol3]
@earl That fit.
 
8:44 PM
With that byline, you can also go back to the original link :)
room topic changed to Rebol (and Red): Rebel against software complexity! rebolsource.net/go/so-chat-faq [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [rebol3]
 
@earl Not in my browser...
 
@HostileFork I have never found the time to learn Blender, I used to do some simple animations with dkb-trace and Pov-ray back in the Amiga days, then switched to LightWave 3D. So, I don't know how far is Blender from the closed-source big guns from the industry, from my own limited perpective, Blender looks quite capable.
 
@HostileFork Mine doesn't ... ever :)
So that's probably a unthankful effort :)
 
@DocKimbel Sorry, it's MS-paint equivalent. Even in Earth zone there's SolidWorks. Still dongle-locked if you buy it, for $4k. Good luck kids. Sad, sad, sad...
 
("so chat faq" reads better than "so faq" to me. the latter is easy to misread.)
 
8:49 PM
@earl You're already on chat, what about chat-faq ?
It's redirectable, we may abandon StackOverflow, ostensibly we trust rebolsource.net more than stackoverflow.com anyway :-P
Or... do we?
 
The good part of Blender is that you'll be able to extend it using Red code. ;-) Also, Blender features a realtime 3D engine, so quite useful for making 3D games. Unity 3D is probably better but it is closed-source, so no way to integrate Red in it. Though, it might be possible to interface with Unity if it has a C-level public API.
 
@HostileFork chat-faq is good, redirect is in place
 
@DocKimbel Blender is a pain to use. SketchUp is less painful, but Google bought and sold it. I'm not sure where cheap-as-free 3D is going at this point.
room topic changed to Rebol (and Red): Rebel against software complexity! rebolsource.net/go/chat-faq [dialect] [interpreter] [json] [lisp] [rebol] [rebol3]
@earl Okay, let's go with it. :-)
 
9:42 PM
Regarding the Red icon, my recollection of the tower of hanoi toys I've played with were that the blocks were round and not square. Now how would 3 red disks placed on top of the new Rebol icon work? I suspect we don't even need the peg .. the peg is to allow the placement of another disc, and we don't need this.
 
10:22 PM
Does anyone know for certain whether data in event/port/data is appended to or overwritten in a tcp read
When I wrote this smtp protocol I did not have to clear the event/port/data between reads. But when I used the tls port, I found that I had to otherwise I would be processing the same data each time.
 
10:43 PM
Hello @Cradam
 
@DocKimbel Actually it's now established that the Neanderthal did not die out but was assimilated. We have a good amount of their genetic material in us. Maybe we'll all just become cyborgs and be one with the AIs.
 
@GrahamChiu It was an aesthetic choice for the icon design.
@Cradam I've upvoted your answer regarding os.chdir in Python. You should be able to speak!
 
@HostileFork Historically though they were discs ... and goes with the "O" in RebOl
 
@GrahamChiu should now be possible to find out
 
@GrahamChiu I picked it because it was more...computational. It stood out to me. I'm not opposed to discs if you can build a justification for it, but I liked the unique look of it where it was more like a pyramid...
 
10:51 PM
Cyphre changed the tls to clear the buffer on a read rather than append as that was what I observed. But he says now that he thinks it just should append ... so if we have the source to see what happens ...
@HostileFork you realise that turtles are not square
 
@Cradam though there is sometimes a delay regarding reputation. Speaking of things with reputation delays, if you read our FAQ you will see another thing you can do is change your user icon...and that takes time to propagate to chat too.
@GrahamChiu But square tomatoes fit in boxes better. So would square turtles.
Rebol and Red have little respect for reality "as it is". They're about "as it should be". :-)
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman @DocKimbel (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
@GrahamChiu The choice to go with squares is exactly because I was trying to avoid the cliche of discs. I think if a language were called "Hanoi" then it might be iconized as wooden discs because that is how the game has historically been done. I had this "twist" in my mind. I'm willing to consider alternatives, that's just what I "saw".
 
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