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12:00 AM
Unlikely since it's private property.
 
@GrahamChiu it's good all round when communities can reclaim un/misused land. Property rights should come with such caveats. I think. Use it or lose it : )
 
I saw this program on TV where this hoarder lived in an English village .. ruined their attempt a winning best village of the district.
To get in the house he had to crawl over newspapers in the front door, and slither like that around the house. He slept in a fetal position as that's the only room he had left!
Council could not do a thing.
The yard was full of junk and decaying waste.
Eventually some guy befriended him, and the whole village who had shunned him pitched in to clean up.
 
Did they subsequently win?
 
Dunno .. but they cleared his section of antique and rusted cars, decade old newspapers and I think managed to even get into his house. The psychologist who was called had never seen anything like it before.
 
I also approve of seed bombing though I don't think that'd be enough for The Hole.
 
12:10 AM
The villagers in the past had built a high fence to hide the property but the judges were not fooled!
We do seed bombing here for high inaccessible places to try and propagate native flora where the pest animals can't reach them.
 
 
2 hours later…
2:06 AM
@earl Tried ruby 1.9.2 and same error. Starting with new ec2 image
 
 
1 hour later…
3:28 AM
@GrahamChiu Oddly the shapado homepage has turned into some marketing thing, and it's not so easy to find their Q&A about shapado itself. But there is one. shapado.com/questions
 
I tried to register and it just returned blank pages. I've decided they've made it as hard as possible to install so that you need to purchase hosting!
It's JS and a DB backend .. can't be that difficult to write a clone.
Has your BP cuff arrived yet?
 
@GrahamChiu It might have. Some deliveries go to lockboxes in the mail room instead of coming to the door, seems to vary by sub-vendor on amazon
 
I'm plowing thru that ebook ... tough going!
 
@GrahamChiu Which one? Accelerando?
 
Yeah.
 
3:36 AM
Phone calls from Russian Lobsters. :-)
 
He's got a good grasp of tech, but less so than other guys I've read .. probably because of the references to when he wrote it
I mean .. slashdotted??
the protagonist has to wear glasses .. no neural implants which we have now ...for hearing and vision.
 
Well the book gets on to space travel in miniature ships so they can fly faster and use less fuel, the pilots virtual copies, and depending on one's tastes for modification you either rip out parts of your brain or not in the simulation...which dictates whether the zone of the ship you're on needs air or not for instance.
 
ah.. I'm only on chapter 3
I registered with newrelic to get something .. not sure.
they sent me an ebook, The New Kingmakers ..
 
It covers several generations so the first one is supposed to be "near future"
Then it follows the Stallman-like character's descendants
 
I guess I'm impatient to reach godhood
For whatever reason, Firefox now has their own PDF viewer .. competing with chrome ? It's terrible :(
 
3:46 AM
I don't know what your opinion as a doctor is, but I really think biology is kind of a rotten concept to the core and that getting to godhood must involve getting out of it.
 
without biology you'd have no rot
 
What's made me mad as an engineer is how messy we've made our technology, it's almost as bad. It does rot.
 
I can see daily why Carl rails against complexity
 
Replacing viruses and mysterious cancerous systems with... electronic viruses and mysterious cancerous systems.
 
and genetic algorithms
 
3:49 AM
I'm just imagining robot people going to robot doctors in the future and getting the kind of "hmm, we don't know really, it could be X or it could be Y. run two of these programs and call me in 100 milliseconds."
Outside of the Rebol movement, there is indeed a surprising few number of people who seem actively concerned about this.
 
UI designers .. more is less
 
Which is one of the things I like about Accelerando is that it has a message surrounding spam and the yuckiness of complexity that has spiraled completely out of control.
 
less is more
or whatever
I surprised then you've sold your soul by getting a gmail account
Has anyone written a plugin to remove google ads from gmail?
 
Just sign your messages "Sincerely, Graham Suicide Chiu". They suppress the ads. :-)
I don't remember exactly what the trigger list was for topics that keep Gmail from showing ads, but that was one of them.
 
4:10 AM
:)
what ads do they show to radical muslims terrorists?
 
4:24 AM
Anyone know if this async call from Doc's R2 version can be implemented in r3. It has a load/library though ...
 
 
1 hour later…
5:29 AM
hey Brian (@HostileFork), what dev environment are you using for C/C++?
 
@Adrian For most things I use a KDE shell on debian and Qt Creator, because I'm a big Qt fan and I like to stay as open source as possible: qt.digia.com/Product/Developer-Tools
But I do fallback on MS visual C++ sometimes especially for debugging, it's still unparalleled.
 
have you used Code::Blocks?
 
@Adrian Long time ago, but my hazy memory is that it was wxWidgets based, and I despise wxWidgets. (I could be wrong, it was so long ago.)
 
was just trying to set up a makefile project for R3 in it and for some reason it's not behaving
I was thinking that it would be something that could be made available for the community
 
@Adrian Good to have as many as we can get...well, if you are hitting specific errors post them, between earl and I we've done a few builds so we can probably interpret them.
 
5:37 AM
it's not an error I'm getting, but that running 'make prep' fails and CB says nothing has to be done because everything is up to date
make all, after this gives the same
this is the output I'm getting:
Running target pre-build steps
r3-make ../src/tools/make-make.r 0.3.1 >NUL
Option set for building: 0.3.1 win32
Created: ../../make/makefile

-------------- Build: Debug in r3test (compiler: GNU GCC Compiler)---------------

Running command: make.exe -f makefile all
Execution of 'make.exe -f makefile all' in 'c:\dev\projects\cblocks-test\r3test\make' failed.
Nothing to be done (all items are up-to-date).
not familiar with this IDE, that's the problem, but it looks straightforward
 
5:57 AM
@Adrian That's odd. What happens if you "make clean"? (sorry, have company, so not 100% on chat)
 
np
-------------- Clean: Debug in r3test (compiler: GNU GCC Compiler)---------------

Error cleaning "r3test - Debug"
Done.
 
6:28 AM
@Adrian I wonder a bit about that idea that the project target name is "r3test" not r3.
The build product should be "r3"
 
no, found the problem - just the naming of the tools
the produced makefile has gcc and make - Code::Blocks has mingw32-make and mingw32-gcc
among other discrepancies
so the make that was getting called was actually my cygwin make
 
7:25 AM
@Adrian Ah. So it built?
I'm not a super big fan of the github wiki being on my repository and not the main one. :-( But a build page with step by step could help people. Just don't take teensy screenshots!
 
getting there - diddling around with how make is called in order to pass it the correct names. At the same time, I want to do the least number of modifications to make-make.r
need to add MAKE= $(TOOLS)/make and change all the hardcoded make references use $(MAKE)
and when I call make I have to pass in MAKE, GCC, NM, STRIP vars
I mean when I call it from the IDE not inside the makefile
the command-line gets kind of ugly
If I give you a zip with the changes and the CB project file could you try and verify that it works for you too?
do you mind installing Code::Blocks or is it too much to ask?
it's just that I think most Windows people would be using this vs the free VS
@HostileFork you there?
tell that company they've overstayed!
kidding
 
@Adrian I do not mind, but I will do it tomorrow (some company is allowed to stay late :-P)
 
heh
sure - actually Andreas can probably answer this since it concerns something he gave me as a fix
l8tr
 
I also have to do Graham's WebOS build! But I have to finish the Red checkin, still seeking byte compatibility
 
yeah, don't mean to stop you from getting it out by february
 
7:40 AM
Maybe I should put up a donations link to help me "prioritize"
 
do it
 
No, I hate money
 
I don't - just forward to me :-)
 
I'd rather turn it into confetti and make an avant garde music video... I'm looking forward to whuffie... way of the future!
 
you read that book?
recommended?
 
7:57 AM
@Adrian I did not read that particular Doctorow book, but I'm a fan otherwise...and it comes recommended by description from a friend. However, I definitely recommend watching this talk in its entirety
Sleeping now, but I'll do a windows VM with a step-by-step if you write the Code:Blocks draft as a wiki page, and just get it as far as you get and I'll follow your steps and then make it work. :-)
 
@HostileFork since you hate money, have you read the moneyless manifesto?
Of course there's a free online edition :)
I read the first page and have decided it is a must read ... once I've read the scifi
 
8:30 AM
Hey Brian!
 
he's occupied with an overnight guest
 
Brian Tiffin
Yeah .... too many Brians around ...
@HostileFork - see chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/info/291/rebol-and-red?tab=access which seems to suggest you can add a user with reputation < 20 and allow them to chat. New feature?
 
 
8 hours later…
5:12 PM
I accepted @BrianH's answer to my codec question: stackoverflow.com/questions/14365034/…
Except I am now regretting having a question out there to which the answer is 'you can't do it'.
This is bad.
 
 
1 hour later…
6:17 PM
@rgchris This is why being able to edit and update later is good...
Your accepted answer can change.
@GrahamChiu That looks good, I will put it in my queue!
@GrahamChiu It may seem that way but you can't use it for people with < 20 rep. It's just for whitelisting people in "private" rooms.
Had some weird dreams about this chat room last night, including a visit from our first spammer. It was an account that came on and was some kind of "looking for a good time?!" set of messages, and other room owners had banned them while I was away. Except when I joined and read the fine print of the spam it was from someone claiming to be a Wildebeest. :-)
 
7:04 PM
@HostileFork I read a few chapters last night ... looks good. I'm tempted to go moneyless :)
Anyone tried Gab's topaz dialect?
I see that webos runs with node.js, and since topaz uses node.js as well, don't we then have a rebolish interpreter already on webOs?
@rgchris Why not ask Carl on his blog about codecs?
 
@user1860176 Wow, they sure jumped on you for a first question! Sorry to see that.
@user1860176 I don't think it's that bad, so I upvoted it in compensation. But definitely, do consider that when phrasing questions you need to be a bit more descriptive than "It doesn't work". There are lots of ways things can "not work". This is a good thing to read over that will save you some pain: Short, Self Contained, Correct (Compilable), Example
 
Would make anyone jump ship from Java to Rebol!
 
We're nicer. :-)
 
Communities larger than 150 people in size tend to be more impersonal
@hostilefork How are the bytes going? Nailed it yet?
 
@GrahamChiu Actually got a little sidetracked with doing some audio fixup and installing a windows powerpoint player in a VM, I should have the Red video done shortly.
I found a bug in the loader/preprocessor, I don't know if it's the only bug. The parse changes between R2 and R3 are subtle and tough to crack.
At least for me. But Red's heavy use of parse has been a bit of an education.
Speaking of hating money, and doing audio work in a clunky program (Logic Express) I am torn on buying Ableton Live 9. Besides being basically the best audio program in existence, you can hum into it now or beatbox...or feed it music and it can fairly reliably recreate it in notes and instruments you can tweak.
 
7:21 PM
Well, that's a useful warning ..
 
@GrahamChiu As noted, though, mostly the correct behavior is in R3s favor.
 
I'd had the impression R3 parse was an improvement ...
not that it broke R2 parsing
 
I'm sure if it's your own code it would be less mysterious.
@GrahamChiu All these things are just weirdnesses, I mean form email! gives "email" in R2. Why? How long does it take to figure that out and its ramifications? Depends.
 
So, if we have a script that says

needs: 3.0

now we, need to say it needs a version >= 2 and <= 3
 
R2 tends to be the weirder but this equality strictness or laxness mess has definitely caught my attention and needs a revisit.
 
7:25 PM
which is ... not good
 
Lots...of...problems. Not unsolvable problems in a theoretic sense, but they will be if we only get one integration of the master per month (or less?)
 
So, perhaps R3 should have a R2 compatible parser switch
Luckily Rebol has had so few versions over the years, we rarely see incompatibilities arise with newer versions
( which is why I don't like the // idea of yours :) )
Is \\ used for anything??
\ is used in forth to indicate that everything after it on that line is a comment
 
@GrahamChiu I was proposing R3/backward be started as a simple project, with just a few routines, to establish its existence and how it is turned on. It could grow just as R2/forward did.
 
Where was this proposed? I like it.
 
Chat
 
7:34 PM
Hmm.. there is no like button here!
 
@GrahamChiu Yes there is, it's starring. You can "Star" that.
 
Ah.. I forgot as a room owner I could do that.
Was it you who started this room??
 
@GrahamChiu I would imagine so.
 
Seems you, Andreas and I were here on the same day
Anyway, have a way to ensure R2 compatibility for core at least seems a very attractive idea
If you'd done that, there would have been no need to do the R3 port of red.r
 
@GrahamChiu The first day of Rebol StackOverflow Chat...and you were even there! :-) October 2010.
@GrahamChiu Well this is how I'm mostly trying to do it. It's not a port, it runs under both. The way I approach most problems is to expand R2/forward and then rewrite the code in the R3 way.
But yes, R3/backward could have meant I kept the code in the R2 style, and I think it should exist although I don't feel that's right for Red.
 
7:45 PM
Probably not if it's going to be maintained for the future
 
I'm feeling kind of optimistic right now, having listened to Doc's talk a couple times with various levels of DeEssing, EQ, and noise gating...that I think this stuff can come together if we work hard enough.
It's a mixed blessing to come late to any game. Microsoft was really ahead of the time in some ways in tablet computing and mobile, but they were a little too early to see clearly. iPhone came later and the lateness was a good thing, touch screens, a solid understanding of the Internet.
Rebol and Red may be ready to take off, I do think the social politics and stuff are probably the most crucial right now.
 
Perhaps that can help us address the question of a source code repository
At present scripts are everywhere... there's no mechanism to download from a central location
 
If Rebol scripts can be nicely sandboxed and run from URLs that's going to give it some of the same success factors as JavaScript. I think in general patterning after that and node.js is probably the best bet.
 
there's speaker icon in the top right to control sounds
 
@Adrian See I knew there was a reason I liked this chat. :-)
Thanks!
Interestingly, the audio component when you do DeEssing also catches the specific transient click sound of advancing the slides.
 
8:01 PM
@HostileFork I've owned a windows xp tablet for years .... they just wanted to attack the high end instead of thinking about usability
 
@GrahamChiu They were locked into Windows and the start menu and an OS designed for mouse and not touch. Had they made Windows 8 back then, story might be different.
 
backwards compatibility at all costs
 
Too late.
 
sucks
 
I found a windows 8 dvd in the trash at work today ... might install it on one of the oldest tablets I have!
the office PCs are all standardised on Windows XP still
lol
@Adrian you've used topaz haven't you?
 
8:05 PM
if you find any more, you can send me a copy - I've got a Tablet PC as well - still running well with Win 7
 
Whatever I might think or not think about Windows 8, I like the packaging. It's more interesting than Apple, their stock dive may not make a whole lot of sense in some ways but I do think they are seeming a bit "tired".
I'm not sure the future really wants a "one size fits all" mentality.
 
not really used, just built and tried running some basic stuff
 
@Adrian They tossed all the restore, driver etc DVDs that came with the new HP PC
 
what version?
 
Windows 7 prof and windows 8
 
8:07 PM
there's only one version of 8?
 
@Adrian So, how does it run?
@Adrian window 8 pro
If you're running node.js .. does it then have topaz available all the time?
 
you mean performance-wise? I didn't do anything like that - let me go back and take a look what was involved.
 
Not performance, just what has to be done
 
8:28 PM
What I am wondering about is if you have a comp that runs node.js all the time as part of the OS ( as in webOS ), what can we do with Topaz?
 
@GrahamChiu I'll reiterate that I don't think investment in Topaz is a good thing for right now. To me it's Rebol and Red, and nipping off every other clone or any info about it from SEO will help. For now.
And building the Red and open source Rebol alliance.
If Rebol and Red can't agree on lexical level compatibility, we're screwed, and that's going to be hard enough. Once that's done, let the clones come back.
 
@HostileFork as far as I can see, it's the only way to run Rebol in the browser
 
Google Native Client (NaCl) is a sandboxing technology for running a subset of Intel x86 or ARM native code using software-based fault isolation. It is proposed for safely running native code from a web browser, allowing web-based applications to run at near-native speeds, which aligns well with Google's plans with Chrome OS. It may also be used for securing browser plugins, and in the future parts of other applications or full applications. To demonstrate the readiness of the technology, on 9 December 2011, Google announced the availability of several new Chrome-only versions of games k...
 
And does anyone apart from Chrome support NaCl?
 
@GrahamChiu Well, you said "only way". I guess I think that in the scheme of things, the idea of running a compatible Red/Rebol properly virtualized is a better bet than trying to have some JavaScript-powered backend of a hard to maintain incompatible implementation. I'm not saying experiments are bad, I'm just saying there's only like 50 of us right now, and that is a generous approximation...so we'll accomplish more with more of that whole "being on the same page" thing.
And also, looking like you're cohesive and you've got things together is a good way of growing.
As nice guys know, being nice isn't always enough. :-)
 
9:10 PM
@GrahamChiu How does webOS have node.js "running all the time"? Is the UI a HTML5/JS app running on node?
 
@GrahamChiu Also, while it may seem set in stone today, there once was VB in the browser. That's ostensibly why it says <script type="text/javascript">. While that's just become assumed today it could say <script type="text/rebol">...
(It won't, I just felt like mentioning it. :-P)
 
@HostileFork sure, there are actually some compilers that run in the browser and look for "text/some-language" and compile at runtime, but for that you'd need a JS Rebol to JS compiler
and Topaz could be that
 
@Adrian Yes, I think so. See their system diagram
 
right now, it's the only thing that's close to taking a good subset of Rebol (which could be worked on to be as close to the complete syntax as possible) and converting to JavaScript
@GrahamChiu can you introduce other node packages into the always running instance of node?
@GrahamChiu so that Topaz could be loaded as a module
I'm guessing that they don't open up that instance so that any joe blow can bugger it up by running JS which could stomp on the official code
I mean a developer might know what to do to add something there, but I'm not sure you could ship an app which would also install Topaz into that node instance
 
@Adrian Well, it's Open source ...
Just might have to ship your own version of webos
 
9:22 PM
k, but are you talking here about doing something for yourself?
 
not really
 
or having something so that anyone could get a Rebol app and run it
 
so would have to look at what they've done
@Adrian yes to that one
 
btw, IMO, having Topaz is a good idea seeing that web dev is so popular now as a platform. What's needed is to separate the idea of the interpreter/compiler vs the language for clarity. Topaz is/should be the interpreter/copiler for RebolScript - a strict subset of Rebol.
 
@Adrian Well, keep pushing on the tests and standards if you want strict.
 
9:29 PM
I don't think Gabriele was thinking that way when he was actively developing simply because of the closed nature of Rebol - but now...
 
Rebol has "shot from the hip" so to speak for far too long w.r.t. formalism.
 
agree
 
And if clones are going to stick around they need to pass some test suite and use continuous integration as per earl's work.
 
but there's a lot of work in Topaz - work which shouldn't be ignored
because having Rebol (and Red) running in the browser is key
 
There is no Python in the browser. There is no Ruby in the browser. Yet people have huge conferences about these and other non-browser languages, so I think that (for starters) we can imagine other keys.
It's a key but not the lowest-hanging one.
Rebol/Red must consolidate and the leadership issues need to be aligned because right now, any turnkey Rebol solution that one tried to sell would bring people in with a curious "wow" and they'd look and go "get your house in order, guys"
This is why I'm so adamant about the things I rant about.
 
9:34 PM
sure, but lets see if Doc and Carl and Gabriele can talk
 
Well, what can we do to help make that happen?
 
money - the thing you hate
 
I don't know if Carl is all that swayed by the amount of money that any of us control.
 
maybe, but at this point he's probably the least important in achieving some unity of vision
of the three, I mean
 
Well I like Doc's attitude, I think the only disagreement we probably have in the strategy is whether Red should prioritize self-hosting or if it should stay stacked against ANSI-C at the foundation via Rebol 3 or a fork of it.
 
9:37 PM
what do you think, though? You've seen Nenad's opinion to a certain degree
 
I say keep it "full stack" - but I also want to bend Rebol so that it's way more Red compatible.
Which is possible now, and it wasn't when he started, so that's part of my point--things have changed a little.
 
you didn't answer the question I had wrt Red/System
 
Refresh my memory
 
seems you're suggesting he discards that
if the foundation were to be Rebol3->C
 
No, I'm saying keep Red/System written in a Red-ized-Rebol variant.
 
9:39 PM
I see
sure
but then the Red-Rebol3 layers are pretty similar, no?
 
Listening to his agenda and such, he would not have been pleased with this on a closed source Rebol, but on an open sourced one that can build on any ANSI-C system...well...
Then it's not so bad.
And in ways, actively good.
 
hmm, confusion
 
It's a fourth baseplate in the towers of hanoi.
 
how do you explain the progression to the masses?
Red-Rebol3-Rebol3_subset-C
 
One point I want to make is that Rebol (or Red/ANSI-C which underlies Red/System, however you choose to model it in your brain) is precisely designed to freak out the masses less.
I mentioned that my disappointment in Rebol's rank-and-file interpreter implementation actually turned around into saying "Well, this is an opportunity. Anyone (who is a C programmer) can read this thing."
It's buggy, but it's clean.
We can take care of the buggy.
 
9:44 PM
? Red/System is equivalent to Rebol (Red/ANSI-C), no? Not undelies it
I guess I'm not sure if this is what you see -
Red-Rebol3-Rebol3_subset-C ? Is it?
 
Red/System is just a C compiler that obeys Rebol conventions and concepts as a "dialect". It happens (incidentally) to run on an interpreter, but this is of little concern to those who produce build products from it because you don't ship the interpreter along with your build products.
 
sure, got that
can you define the "stack" you have in mind?
 
I'm saying (a) the speed of the compilation process isn't that big an issue in the scheme of things, and (b) there is a lot of latent value in having a Red-like system that is written in something that people don't crack open and go "what kind of moon language is this?" This is not even including the practical reasons for a less precarious bootstrap, I'm only talking about the sociological ones.
 
is it what I had above?
there are 4 layers in that
 
Yup, four layers. You build the whole thing up from any ANSI-C you have on hand. The only differences are nuisances of the difference of hacking on the Rebol baseplate when you're used to Red (we mitigate this by making Red and Rebol as similar as they can be), and some slowdown from the fact that Red and Red/System are written in Rebol.
(I say the speed is probably not going to wind up being a factor as it is all compile time cost, but I'm a C++ believer so I'm used to the idea of paying for things at compile time for a better/faster runtime.)
Hello @Deinumite ... sorry for the incomplete state of the FAQ, I only just started it.
It's designed to try and keep me from saying the same thing to people who stop by, you never know if they're going to say anything or not. :-)
 
9:54 PM
@HostileFork "we mitigate this by making Red and Rebol as similar as they can be" I guess this is where I'm confused because they provide a similar level of abstraction. How would a developer choose to be in one or the other of these layers?
@GrahamChiu according to this - openwebosproject.org/docs/developer_guide/javascript_services - it looks like you can add extensions
 
@Adrian I think the people who would choose Rebol would be those who appreciate the source-level benefits but are skeptical of a system they don't feel they can change, and if something is heavily bootstrapped and "too weird" then people often back off because it doesn't seem like "Terra Firma", be it open source or not.
Just think about how people's eyes glaze over at Haskell codebases or whatever--rightly or wrongly, rank and file IT people don't want that stack on their machine.
And how can someone, even someone who wants to like a Rebol-like language because they've seen the coolness... handle the Red source? They cannot!
Unless they've been in the game for years.
Rebol, the interpreter in ANSI-C, is the gateway drug.
For the ultimate Red pill of programming, so to speak. :-)
Red will be the better choice for newbies who have no plans to ever crack open the implementation ("other people are taking care of that") or for experienced people who demand a Rebol-style implementation.
 
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