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12:01 AM
Yeah, I definitely understand the desire to force people to be concise. And honestly, apart from links, I'd say 500 characters is plenty. So if it somehow didn't count URLs as part of the char count then that would solve the problem as I see it.
 
@OlegValter Assert is, to me, a completely different concept. But I like to geek out on this sort of thing. In one of my codebases, I have 4 different macros for handling conditions at run-time (and that's in addition to the ones that handle things statically).
ASSERT: Stipulates an invariant condition that, as a matter of design, must always be true at run-time. If the condition is violated, that means there is a bug on the implementation side, which may cause undefined behavior in optimized builds. (Checked in debugging builds only.)
ENSURE: Ensures that an invariant condition is always true at run-time, even in optimized builds. If the condition is violated, that means there is a bug on the caller's side. It will be handled either by halting execution or throwing an exception, thus insulating the implementation side from an unrecoverable error. (Checked in both debugging and optimized builds.)
EXPECT: Evaluates the condition's expression and verifies at run-time (in debugging builds) that the condition evaluated to true. Used when the evaluation of the expression has important side effects that make it ineligible for elision, but where it is always expected to succeed. (Checked only in debugging builds; evaluated* but not checked in optimized builds.)
WARN: Warns if a particular condition is violated at run-time (but only in debugging builds). Used to alert the caller of a possible bug, even though the error is recoverable and will be seamlessly handled by subsequent code on the implementation side. (Executed only in debugging builds.)
"These run-time reporting macros fill a useful niche situated somewhere between comments and exceptions for documenting and detecting illegal behavior or problematic conditions."
@RyanM Yeah, I think that was not considered back in the day. When these limits were put into place, there was, for example, no such thing as a review queue.
@OlegValter That has the same problem as "wanna": it has a specific meaning, which you are not matching with this usage. Y'all == you all. You just want "all".
 
@Scratte FWIW, I share Oleg's opinion that it is nice having you around. I do hope you'll consider staying or returning. If the heated discussion in question is the one I'm thinking of, I'm sure a common ground can be reached, even if that common ground doesn't cover everything.
 
@OlegValter I'm almost certain that such a Q&A exists on MSE.
@OlegValter I disagree with this. I think the site has scaled surprisingly well, considering how little could have been predicted in advance. There are certainly things that haven't scaled, and it's quite amusing to think how paltry the moderator tools were at the beginning, and, still, how lame they are now (especially in light of what the mods have always been able to do with them), but I think it is unfair not to give a substantial amount of credit to the founders for their foresight.
 
@CodyGray If there is, then no one on MSE has found it in the 7 hours Oleg's has been up.
 
@Scratte I haven't heard from anyone who doesn't share that opinion. I very much miss having you around, in here and other places.
@Scratte It was never flagged. There's been a lot of clean-up on that Q&A over the years, mostly due to people plagiarizing images of venn diagrams. It was probably a misclick when meagar was handling a flag on another post.
@OlegValter Checking... I don't have an exact date of when he was reinstated, but maybe I can get an approximate one.
Oh, duh... I can give you an exact date. Tim Post was reinstated on December 15, 2020. His moderator status was previously removed after his resignation from the company on November 16, 2020.
Haha, Jon already did that.
@RyanM Oh, I see. He already posted it.
I'm a bit slow today... feeling quite sick.
@OlegValter Another item to add to your character-limiting guide: flag dismissal messages by moderators (either as "helpful" or "declined") are limited to 200 characters. There's "officially" a minimum of 10 characters, but it's not enforced (we can leave the reason blank, if we want).
 
 
3 hours later…
3:39 AM
@CodyGray Hope you feel better soon!
 
4:13 AM
@RyanM Thanks! Allergies... I've already started taking allergy medication, but apparently not soon enough to block the symptoms.
 
 
5 hours later…
8:50 AM
@RyanM I tried to find one for quite a while and, once I was sure it is impossible to easily find, decided to try my luck and made one :) Seems like it worked out nicely even despite the Tavern's "another useless things documented" attitude (I assume "another" refers to the rate limiting guide)
@VLAZ heh, true :) since our specialty is meddling in elections, I propose replacing candidates with Bhargav Rao and BoltClock for the next election
 
Yeah, I think I was assuming the rate-limiting guide covered this.
The problem I have with documenting things like this is that the documentation can quickly go stale.
I don't know what the Tavern was thinking; I haven't been there in years.
 
@CodyGray I assumed that too
but nope, not even close
 
@OlegValter They don't need to get re-elected. They were already elected once, so they're in any time they want.
 
@CodyGray good thing we are on SE network, where the only documentation that can go stale is the one documenting the UI :)
 
heh
Well, yeah, I'm sure that Sonic will regularly make edits adding things he has no real confirmation of.
 
8:57 AM
well, I intend on keeping an eye on it, so far seems fine
and now, back to the transcript :)
 
Looks like you've already pretty much finished it
 
@RyanM I agree with @CodyGray here - pretty sure conciseness is a tacked-on explanation that justifies the limit post factum, not the original intention. They all seem to have practical reasons rather than educational. Which is why I also think SE can safely increase half of them - tech has evolved significantly to allow for some extra chars submitted
 
Yeah, it was literally because Jeff Atwood was afraid of someone using that textbox as a way to overwhelm mods with crap.
Unfortunately, people have now found new and different ways of overwhelming us all with crap.
 
@CodyGray tried my best + there is already a lot added by Laurel, but I am sure I will need to keep an eye
 
@OlegValter I meant the transcript :-)
 
9:05 AM
@CodyGray isn't "Stipulates an invariant condition that, as a matter of design, must always be true at run-time" exactly what these module assertions do? They assert that the loaded module is of a certain type and throw an assertion error if it is not. "ensure" and "expect" - yeah, they are not as easily applied here.
 
Ugh
No.
 
@CodyGray oh
 
Assertions can't throw.
By "must always be true at run-time", I mean to imply that it must be true, not that there is some check that it will be true.
 
hmm. We are talking about different things then
 
ASSERT means, by god, this had better be true, or demons will surely fly out of my nose!
 
9:06 AM
well, aren't assertions normally paired with throwing an assertion error to prevent apocalypse?
 
No
Traditionally, assertions are compiled out in optimized builds.
They literally don't exist anymore. The time for verification was when writing/debugging.
 
@CodyGray ok, ok, that wasn't the best of jokes, I know :)
@CodyGray you keep forgetting I come from a background in interpreted languages :) To me, failing an assertion and a runtime assertion error mean the same thing. So we likely just apply different domains when talking about assert. Which might be the reason why it is not a good candidate for a keyword, btw
 
Yes, I think that is exactly my point.
In C, one never writes ASSERT for an error that could conceivably happen at runtime. For that, you need to write error handling.
 
@CodyGray let me clarify my point: I can see it was well-designed and thus scaled surprisingly well, as good architecture does, so I definitely do not try to belittle the effort of Jeff an Co. What I am less sure about is that there was a lot of thought put into making sure it scales well to the current size of SO. Frankly, I think that the site is kept afloat by user efforts with all the things built on top of it (bots, scripts, styles, collaborative moderation chat rooms, meta efforts, etc)
 
Oh yeah, totally
I mean, like Shog said, back in the early days, there were no community review queues of any kind. Mods handled all of the flags themselves.
NAA, VLQ, ... all of that went directly into the mod queue.
 
9:17 AM
@CodyGray yeah, sorry for making you go checking in vain - I already updated everything after Jon's clarifications. Fiddling with LaTeX brings back memories :)
@CodyGray ugh, an allergy? Hope just something seasonal
 
@OlegValter Yeah, seasonal allergies. Grass pollen is off the charts at the moment here, and probably some other stuff.
@OlegValter Yeah, yeah. I'm used to getting ninja'd. Just not usually by Jon, so that's a nice change of pace. :-)
 
@CodyGray noted, thank you! Can I ask you to make a screenshot of an empty box in the manner I have done in the Q&A? I opted for using them to have a "fixed" verification item there
 
Oh
Well, I'll have to turn off the userscript for that :-)
 
I hope that's not too much of an inconvenience :) Thanks!
 
Ugh, and I have to find a flag
I might accidentally even handle it
 
9:22 AM
@CodyGray ugh, yeah, 'tis the worst kind - can't really hide from the allergen. Hope it is a mild one
 
@OlegValter Hasn't felt very mild the last couple of days :-\
 
@CodyGray oh, that's not nice... Does the medicine help much?
 
I didn't start taking it until I already had the symptoms, so it'll take a while before I start feeling better.
This happens every year.
 
@CodyGray trying to push my luck a little: can I ask you for the same thing but with no text entered? :) That's the last thing I need from it, promise-promise
 
Argh
Actually, I intentionally didn't show that, because the prompt text implies that you need to enter a minimum of 10 characters, but that's a lie. You don't.
 
9:28 AM
yeah, that's is going to be a note :)
 
Right.
Well, which one do you want? The helpful one, or the decline one?
 
any will do :) both will be even better
 
Huh. Seems boring and pointless.
 
@CodyGray oh, 'tis unlucky. Hope the medication takes care of the symptoms some time soon, though
 
9:33 AM
@CodyGray yeah, sorry, I did not promise it will be fun and very meaningful :)
but thanks a lot!
 
The userscript version is more fun. It says: "Enter nothing at all, or up to 200 characters of cheerful guidance"
And, for the decline box: "Enter at least 10 characters of righteous indignation"
 
that also helps to get a grasp on mod tools too, and I am quite curious about that
@CodyGray you should have it inverted
 
Inverted?
 
why, do you not want to righteously scold those who dare waste your time with valid concerns and cheerfully guide those that entertain you with utter crap? :)
 
No, I do it the sensible way
 
9:42 AM
glad you did not say the sane way, that would make you the odd one out
 
I sensed the insanity.
Speaking of insanity: the starboard now contains a bunch of boring pictures of mod stuff.
 
do you have a userscript that preloads them?
 
Preloads the boring mod stuff?
 
sorry, I used stars as bookmarks here until I process them
@CodyGray image links in the starboard
 
Oh, no. I just have a ridiculously tall monitor.
 
9:48 AM
on an off-note: every nomination page on the network is now broken
it broke ElectionBot too
 
Oh, cool!
 
repro on my side
hmm
might be that they botched access levels
 
Doesn't work in an incognito window
So it seems the simple solution is for you to get mod privileges
 
the simplest one, yeah
 
Most likely to succeed.
 
9:50 AM
did not expect that mods still see the page
I wonder what can one change to end up with this result
 
hahaha
you don't want to know
IS_MOD_ONLY = true;
 
I can't for the response to say exactly that...
 
Man, Codidact has really aped Stack Overflow's design, but in a massively inferior way.
That's super disappointing.
 
yeah, their design is a bit off-putting
 
It's literally like they took the worst elements from Stack Overflow and copied them.
They copied the ugly staff banners, and they copied the idea of moderator flair, but made it uglier.
The fonts are so much bolder and uglier. The whitespace is inconsistent and random. Sizes of things are all over the place.
 
9:59 AM
the functional elements are better, though :) The interactive tour is quite nice, IMO, if you haven't tried it
 
I haven't!
 
but yeah, the design part, admittedly, sucks
 
I already know everything about the site, of course.
 
@CodyGray do take one :) It is similar to what I imagine would be beneficial to have for the network here as well
 
All the pages linked here give 404 errors.
I honestly can't find it.
 
10:07 AM
@CodyGray oh, a bug, nice
I actually can reach those pages
 
I assume the tour of which you spoke is also limited to users who are logged in?
Because I have literally searched everywhere now, and I cannot find it.
 
eh... I cannot find it either
 
Excellent.
 
I am sure it is available when you join
 
Seems they've copied all aspects of Stack Overflow. :-/
 
10:09 AM
yeah, the UX is a bit lacking too
I might not be shown the tour anywhere because I have the posting privilege and took it already. I dunno
 
There's even a broken image on the homepage, which is somehow also the "About us" page?
 
they certainly need to link to the tour directly
 
It's quite bad, to be honest.
I wouldn't use this.
 
@CodyGray you mean the broken image?
yeah, the search image is borken
@CodyGray yeah, they certainly need polish. It is one of my major blocking points, even though I already have an account there
 
@OlegValter Yes, of course, that's what I said :-)
I'm 99% sure I have an account there, too. I posted something on their Meta over a year ago.
 
10:13 AM
yeah, sorry, I first started to look for a broken anchor link
 
But most everything I found there was crap, so I didn't stick around.
 
@CodyGray you do have one :)
 
Huh.
Why do I have a diamond?
 
implicit diamond, huh? :)
I have a slight suspicion it is allowed to be edited in there
as they use a different icon for mods
features that are promising:
- always visible vote count with a trend line
- mandatory interactive tour
- threaded comments
- community funding
- two-factor authentication
- partially read notifications
 
The "threaded comments" thing sucks.
 
10:18 AM
so, basically, a list of features I would personally love to just freaking see implemented properly on the network
 
And why the heck do I need two-factor authentication?
 
you - probably do not, many others do :)
 
I don't really want always-visible vote counts on the main site. Too noisy.
 
@OlegValter Yeah, why would a moderator want that kind of security on his account? :-)
 
10:20 AM
@CodyGray well, that is a design problem (which, as we agree, is a bit lacking there) rather than functional problem. It could've been implemented in a less noisy way, but it is good that it is not hidden (at least it should not be rep-hidden, that's what I have a grievance about)
 
Oh
That's just meant to be a cute little bonus feature when you reach a token amount of rep
It's actually fully visible to anyone without having the rep
 
@CodyGray I do not find hiding perception-altering features under privileges cute :)
@CodyGray hmm? to userscript users, yes
 
Calling it a "perception-alerting" feature is quite a stretch
 
oh, no, that was meant in a technical way
so, a post +70/-70 is perceived the same as +0/-0 by everyone who lacks the privilege
which is the vast majority of users
when a feature makes two vastly different things to be perceived in the same way, I say the feature should be scrapped
 
Isn't that reasonable?
Net score is really all that matters.
 
10:35 AM
can't agree with that
+300/-150 does not weight the same as +10/-5
I agree that the "weight" is the only thing that matters
but I disagree that summing upvotes with downvotes is a good way of measuring that
 
@OlegValter Sure it does!
It's mathematically the exact same weight.
It is just a matter of popularity at that point, and you can see that by looking at the view counter.
 
on metas, likely, but this is where perception matters the most too
it does not really matter if that checks out mathematically, we are not dealing with the pure realm here
besides, your argument is not the one that is given to justify the feature
 
Oh
Metas are the one site where I'd say it makes sense to permanently display splits
 
yes, I'd agree with that for sure
 
@OlegValter I don't know who you've been arguing with, but this is literally the argument.
 
10:40 AM
@CodyGray with devs :) I will look it up when I get back today: the argument is that it saves up on requests
 
There was a discussion some time back about how pure ratio-style weighting is not the best, and someone pointed out how Reddit does it, arguing that we should switch. Not sure why that wasn't implemented. Looks like Codidact has done something like that, and then someone geeked out in their Help Center and posted a bunch of noisy graphs for no real reason.
 
reddit does ratios? I thought they show score too
 
@OlegValter That's nonsense. The real reason is that it's a cute little privilege that can be given to users who earn a token amount of rep. I mean, yeah, there's the argument that if it's given to anonymous users, they could use it as an abuse vector (e.g., to create a DoS or something), but that's not the real issue, because you could simply cache it heavily.
Although, interestingly, they don't currently cache it heavily, as showing the vote breakdown is a way to force a rep recalculation under certain circumstances.
@OlegValter Uh, yeah, they show score, but they calculate the score differently.
 
exactly, I think it is nonsense too, but that is what I was given - several times. I think it is BS
 
But that's not the one about post scores that I was thinking of. This was many years ago.
Also, fun throwback to the problems of ye olden days: meta.stackexchange.com/q/158762
 
11:14 AM
@CodyGray ah, I see, I do not know much (if anything) about Reddit's model, so I just assumed the score there is simply upvotes+downvotes or, worse, upvotes only
 
No, it's better thought out than you would think, given that it's Reddit.
 
@CodyGray that seems to violate the single responsibility principle
 
Not necessarily
 
@CodyGray I am glad to hear that - but, really, I do not know much about anything reddit
 
Why not recalculate rep on-demand when someone fetches it?
@OlegValter Me neither
 
11:16 AM
Well, you already know more about it than me :)
 
I learned about it by reading Meta Stack Overflow :-)
 
@CodyGray wow, the article lost me on the first sentence, new record :)
 
Note the date
Back then, algorithms weren't the hottest buzzword around
 
> algorithms, the quintessential example of all that is not human
@CodyGray not the date, the above
so that is how people think about quintessential features of what humans do and how they think
 
Yeah
Sorry, what was the weird part?
Yes!
Humans are not run by algorithms.
We are far, far messier.
 
11:22 AM
still, everything in us acts according to a predefined set of instructions - it the complexity and failures of systems involved due to the unguided evolution that makes us messy, does it not?
 
Hmm, I don't know about that
I don't believe in biological determinism, and certainly not for interactions that are not strictly biological (e.g., social interactions).
 
No, not necessarily biological, but every interaction we have necessarily a set of instructions. With social interactions it is the fact that individual actors are not bound by the same set of rules that determines the messiness of it all. They would be impossible to model if at their core they would not be rationionalisible
The article lost me when it found something ironic that technology that is designed to govern social interactions has an application for algorithms
 
I don't know, it totally makes sense to me
I don't think human interactions are particularly easy to model.
 
that said, I will still proceed to read the rest, it's just the sentence that pissed me off
@CodyGray not easy, but I'd rather attribute it to the sheer scale and complexity of the phenomenon, not to it being inherently non-rationalizable
 
You think all humans are inherently rational?
Wow, you are more optimistic than I am, I believe.
 
 
4 hours later…
3:29 PM
@CodyGray Did I mention before that Hegel's my favourite?
@CodyGray I do believe they are inherently rational - just that they (me included) have a very flawed and unchecked set of premises when basing their inference, but yes, I believe that the rest is quite rational
This is not an optimistic view, btw
 
 
2 hours later…
5:30 PM
@CodyGray sigh, seeing "we want to ask what you folks think we can do" makes me sad
@CodyGray I see I continued the venerable tradition of "Bring back the X" userscripts :) Frankly, I do not know much about how SO used to look like as well and do not get particularly attached to any layout. And if they did not remove ids and valuable items and replace them with blank space, I would be fine with the recent changes too, but alas
I see one thing is consistent, though:
6
A: What's up with the new CSS?

RawlingDo these new rules need to be !important? Certainly it looks like the font-weight on the "answered" rep score works fine without it.

 
 
4 hours later…
9:42 PM
@OlegValter I don't think you did, actually. :-) I'm more of a dialectical materialist than a dialectical phenomenologist, I think.
@OlegValter Well, yes, but! Jeff Atwood always asked, but often didn't listen.
@OlegValter Yeah, just thought you would appreciate seeing some of the history, even though you didn't live through it. Personally, I don't remember being even the slightest bit irritated by that change. I don't think I was bothered by any UI changes until the great top bar redesign.
 
10:22 PM
@CodyGray oh, I wanted to mention it for sure :) Hmm, so Marx would appeal to you more? Although other than considering the history of the Idea an abstraction of the real dialectics of the relationship between the exploited and exploiter, they were quite similar in understanding
@CodyGray that much I noticed :) Still, nowadays there is not even that
 
Oh yeah. I've always been a closet Marxist.
Hard to be a historian and not be one...
 
10:35 PM
@CodyGray and I do appreciate some history on the network. That change looks quite minor. One always gets arguments like "Dropping emphasis and styles made the site harder to read" when changing anything, though
ugh, that response ended up being clunkier than I thought
 
Jeff Atwood always claimed this was just a "Who Moved My Cheese?" problem.
 
@CodyGray Yeah, I suppose so...
@CodyGray and sometimes (as this one shows) it may very well be true. It is just said that the new team (or, more likely, its lead) seems to consider every criticism that.
wait, Scratte's in SOCVR SOBotics?
 
Have you seen the covefe that resulted over historical changes to the color green?
Oh, he is?
Gah!
 
@CodyGray yes, there is some interesting commotion :)
 
You don't even know the difference? :-)
 
10:44 PM
no, I simply misread the name somehow
what the heck is going on there?
 
Apparently, he joined because he saw Bhargav was there
 
@CodyGray there ... was ... a change to color green?
 
Several of them!
I guess that means you haven't seen them.
 
11:02 PM
no...
 
Search MSE for "green"
Should be plenty to keep you entertained
 
ugh, I see
> The company does work hard to encourage these people
who do you think this refers to from the set of volunteers? No cheating
 

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