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12:15 AM
Is there a way how I can get a more specific description of why my question was closed "because opinion-based" recently? I know that there is the FAQ section and I read it before writing my post and also after it was closed. Unfortunately, my question is a question because of the difficulty for me to get any further with this problem. I'm also willing to rewrite it but it would be great to get any advice on what exactly I can improve. Please don't get me wrong, there are many things for sure.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:20 AM
@Danaq This room is for discussing actions on reviews. You want help from the room that discusses close votes instead
Good morning
Currently, there are 2673 banned reviewers, out of which:
- 2549 (95.4%) users are banned for Triage reviews in one way or another
- 2048 (76.6%) users are banned for selecting "Requires Editing" in Triage when the question was unsalvagable
- 89 (3.3%) users are automatically banned for failing multiple review audits
- 641 (24.0%) users are banned for the first time
- 749 (28.0%) users have at least five review bans
- 166 (6.2%) users have at least ten review bans
- 222 (8.3%) users have a duration of at least 100 days, of which 27 users are perma-banned
 
 
6 hours later…
7:01 AM
> 166 (6.2%) users have at least ten review bans
You'd think they learn after the first few.
 
7:44 AM
that number is just for currently review banned users
 
 
1 hour later…
8:45 AM
@Mast: Most of them, most likely, have never noticed their ban. If they have realized that the queue didn't show up for them, they may also think, its one of those frequent A/B-Tests wher StackOverflow goes there and back again with design choices, or that the queue is completley empty.
 
@derM So, better UX would greatly reduce that number?
 
Most definitely. If SO would refrain from using snarky wording like "Unsalvageable" - which many people would never dare to call a question, more people might select it, thus avoiding bans all together.
Then, actively informing the banned one, what he did wrong, and maybe a fine tutorial with selected questions where **detailed** explainations of why which choice would be adequate, would most definitely reduce repeated bans.
 
@Mast A link in the drop down with access to the review would make users aware of a ban. Now, there's no link. See Make the “all queues” link on the Review Queues dropdown persistent.
 
But this matter has been discussed a lot on Meta already, so there is little to add to that.
 
Agreed.
 
8:54 AM
@derM The only thing that happens when things are discussed on meta is that people going to meta is aware of it. I firmly believe that relying on users to seek out information and read the entire "disclaimer" is not the right way to go about it. Do you read the manual on every device you purchase? Did you read the click on the "Legal" link and read the "Terms of Service" when you signed up on Stack Overflow?
 
Of course I do. I also read the EULA whenever I install the same MS programm again :-D - no, I totally agree, that the knowledge has to be actively transfered to those, who try to help and act in good faith. But that this is desperately needed is a fact that has been discussed on Meta a lot.
Also, I think, there is a discussion at least once per week, in this chat, too.
 
@derM Which is a good thing. Because discussing it only once is like realizing there is a problem, but then hiding it in silence. Spraying the elephant in the room with fresh colour makes it clear and visible :)
 
Is there any resource on the banning policy (manual bans)? Will you get banned for disagreeing once with the majority (or the mod) or is there some kind of statistical testing which ensure that the disagreement has been statistically significant, resp. your work is not much different or worse than that of a monkey, before you get banned?
 
9:13 AM
@derM What do you mean by the "majority"?
 
When 2 out of 5 reviewers chose "looks ok" or "requires editing" and the rest finds it unsalvageable.
 
@derM That's not considered at all. The "consensus" that's applied is that of the community. Agreeing with a few other users about making the wrong decision doesn't make it the right one.
 
9:32 AM
Ok, so again the question: Is there any resource on the banning policy for manual bans? Will you get banned for 'making a wrong choice once' or is there any check for statistical relevance of that mistake, resp. an evaluation on how obvious that choice has been wrong.
IMHO there are many cases, where "Looks Ok" and "Requires Editing" seem to be right, unless you deeply understand the problem (and could answer it yourself). The question appears to contain everything - code, expected and obeserved behaviour and a summary of your knowledge... But only if you truly understand the problem, it tu
 
@derM I believe the opinion is that if you cannot determine if the post is OK, then don't try :) So some code, some explanation and perhaps something that looks like an error doesn't make a Question "Looks OK". You need to understand the post to make the call. That's also true for closing as a duplicate. How do you know it's a duplicate, if you don't understand the post?
If it's your area of expertise and you still don't understand the post, then that's a reason to close of course :)
One wrong decision can cause a ban. No matter how many correct reviews you've previously done. No statistics is applied as far as I understand.
 
Oh, especially for duplicates, even mods err often, maybe in their hurry, not regarding the subtile but essential differences between two questions. I once even came across a question that has been closed as beeing a duplicate of a question (by either a mod or a gold hammer), that has been referenced by the OP himself, explaining how his question is different.
But more likely you choose "Looks Ok" and later someone discovers, it is actually a duplicate. So your "Looks Ok" has been wrong, while it's likely to be non-obvious at the time, where you selected it.
 
9:52 AM
@derM I believe moderators's are not banned when if they make mistakes. I've heard it referred to as a feature, not a bug :) Getting a Question reopened because it's not a duplicate seems very tricky to me. I've seen it happen when the the issue is raised on meta. Unfortunately very often they are in reality duplicates, but the OP doesn't understand how to apply the solution in the duplicate target. If you get banned for not identifying the duplicate and you believe that it's not one..
..then you can probably ask about your ban on meta.
 
While it is more likely that you lost one person that was actively trying to help the community. But then again, that is also one of the favorite features of SO, I guess?
 
@derM Whether scaring away new reviewers is good or bad is policy, and I'd rather not go into that.
 
Also scaring away old reviewers, since most likely everone will make a mistake at one time...
 
@derM There may be different sides to this. How do you know that you've reviewed correctly on the previous reviews? I can't say for sure that I haven't made a mistake in the past. (Actually I can, because I've been banned :D)
 
I do not. But I tried my best, and I know that if I get banned, I might not come back. I am unsure, I was quite active some years ago. Maybe a ban at that time made me reconsider, what I want to spend my time on.
It's like if you have a job, you order some papers alphabetically and you decide that Ä follows A - while your boss decides to have Ä following Z. Instead of telling you to put Ä after Z, without explaination he tells you, you are on unpaide leave for 14 days.
Now there are tons of other jobs you can do. Why would you bother to come back?
 
10:04 AM
@derM I believe the idea is that it's essential that reviews are done correctly. Good intentions are not enough. If one only made one or two mistakes, then they're made apparent by a ban and will not have any permanent effect on someones further contribution.
@derM I probably wouldn't because it's easy for my boss to tell me what I did wrong, assuming my boss is not the boss of 1000 workers that are all making the same mistake.
 
And so I probably wouldn't come back here either, because a few percentage points of mistakes seems irrelevant to me, if the gross of the volontary work I did was helpful. And if the boss is to pedantic, I guess, it's not a boss for me. Then I would just follow the advice by @Das_Geek and avoid reviewing at all, since my human nature of making mistakes from time to time, is obviously not appreciated here.
 
@derM You may also think of it this way: Everyone is working within the limits of the current system. There's noway to tell a user that their review was wrong other than suspending them from review. Bringing every user in for a chat to explain it to them is unfeasible. Also: Not doing anything, but letting is slide due to statistics is very rarely applied in the real world. People are usually told when they're doing the wrong thing even if they did the right thing many times previously.
The thing that I find discouraging is the hardship of finding the necessary information. It's like trying to find the manual for your old programmable air-condition unit in the hoards of boxes in your basement.
 
11:09 AM
@Scratte "There's noway to tell a user that their review was wrong other than suspending them from review." - if some reviews are off, and most are not, I argue, the necessity of telling them that they are wrong is less than the necessity that the keep working.
The lack of a solid early intervention tool (non-ban notifications regarding bad reviews, e.g. like the overview over past flags) does not justify scaring away people that have informed themselves before they go to work, and mostly perform well.
 
11:57 AM
@Danaq "Do I miss something? How can I become better with this metaish kind of problem? Reading about design patterns is not that complex most of the time. It's more that I don't know how to glue these patterns together in a higher-order meaning." Well this sums it up exactly why it is Opinion based. There is no right or wrong design pattern.
 
@derM I think the point is that not everyone agrees with you. This is a matter of policy. I can't say if you're right or wrong.
 
1:14 PM
@SamuelLiew the google Triage suspension spreadsheet is starting to become cramped as the timeline stretches. Perhaps showing only "every other" numeric value above the line would allow better readability.
Just a suggestion should no one else have mentioned it.
 
@bad_coder You can hover over them to get the exact, readable value.
 
2:08 PM
@Mast Ohhh...I forgot to set focus on particular graphs. Not long ago you could inspect at glance.
 
2:33 PM
-1
Q: Review Ban for 255 Days - Asking for Reconsideration

MattI recently earned review/triage privileges, was excited to start reviewing/triage-ing, and now find myself with a ban until December 20. After reading more about the nuances in the "requires editing" button, I see the mistakes I've made by looking at my review history. With that said, I can't f...

 
o/ Robert
 
Maybe they should just take down the Triage system until it gets fixes.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:45 PM
-1
Q: Ban for triage/25812206

Dmitry KuzminovI guess that I'm not the only one who complains on banning for "wrong" Requires Editing verdict, but from my point of view this ban is completely wrong. Here is the initial text from the author of the question: I cannot import pygame into python i have a problem. So i tried going to com...

 
 
1 hour later…
4:51 PM
I was banned for the notorious voting for "Requires Editing": stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25812206. I'm not arguing against banning for incorrect voting, but I still believe that it is not my vote was incorrect, but the question that was incorrectly closed as off-topic. The criteria of the reasons why the questions are being closed has become vague and opinion based, while banning has become a practice that lacks proper consideration of the problem.
 

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