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12:11 AM
Good UTC morning. Here is today's weather forecast
Currently, there are 1317 banned reviewers, out of which:
- 1179 (89.5%) users are banned for Triage reviews in one way or another
- 983 (74.6%) users are banned for selecting "Requires Editing" in Triage when the question was unsalvagable
- 114 (8.7%) users are automatically banned for failing multiple review audits
- 296 (22.5%) users are banned for the first time
- 371 (28.2%) users have at least five review bans
- 86 (6.5%) users have a duration of at least 100 days, of which 18 users are perma-banned
I tried something new today. I made an improvement to the review ban userscript to allow me to filter the review history pages by action, and proceeded to review ban users who selected "Requires Editing" in the past 6-8 hours (when I was in bed). This netted a whole lot more bans today (15 pages of Triage reviews when I was away)
If you want to see the trends, I have five graphs in the spreadsheet (linked in the sidebar)
 
 
8 hours later…
8:25 AM
If no changes to the UI next week, perhaps I need to take more drastic actions, like increase minimum ban duration to 8 days, and change the suspension reason to:

"Congratulations!!! You, like many others, have been fooled by the poor wording of "Requires Editing"! **PLEASE STOP USING "Requires Editing"!!!** Read [https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/389148](https://meta.stackoverflow.com/q/389148) to find out what "Requires Editing" really means, and direct your complaints or request a dispute at community-support@stackoverflow.com"
4
I don't know which CM/dev to ping about this anymore.
If only Shog was still around
Then, after a month (Apr), change duration progression from 8 > 16 > 32, to 8 > 32. Following in May, min 16 days, then jump straight to 64
Higher numbers are good for business right?
@YaakovEllis I don't know who to ping about urgent SO issues now that Shog is gone, perhaps you might want to see what can be done immediately about this? Nobody is taking responsibility and there are no updates since 2016
 
8:56 AM
@SamuelLiew Of course! And higher ban durations = higher number of people banned = larger queue backlog, high numbers all round
 
Excellent!
more red dots = higher visibility!
 
Samuel Liew has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
 
does feeds always do that when you add something to it? o.O
 
yeah gonna delete them now
5 messages deleted
 
9:19 AM
stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25557468 (@SamuelLiew Thoughts on this one?)
@YaakovEllis o/
 
@YaakovEllis I just posted this meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/394498/…
 
@SamuelLiew thanks! I was just reading up on the other links, and was wondering how to summarize it all in a cogent way. You did just that. Makes it much easier for me to escalate
 
@YaakovEllis I still do care about the site :/
 
@SamuelLiew so do I
 
Difference here is that you are paid to do so
 
9:27 AM
As do I, in fact I raised your concerns with Lisa previously
 
We are speccing out a whole big bunch of review updates right now. So this is going to go right into the thick of those.
 
stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25557325 (3 looks okays, when it has a blatant paragraph on just meeting minimum requirements for posting, should still be closed as no MRE, no description of problem)
 
@DavidBuck Damn near gave me a heart attack with that one "Nick reviewed this 2 hours ago: Looks OK" - No I did not xd
I need a new name :sigh:
 
9:40 AM
@Nick Haha. Hope you have slightly higher quality standards than that...
 
@DavidBuck Re: your comment on that post (from the triage you linked), nice editing out that info... and then calling it out in the comments for people to check the revision history ;)
 
9:55 AM
@Nick Fair point. I put the revision comment as part of the edit but it was an H&I revision so it's posted it as a comment. I've deleted it and had flagged a mod to remove it from the revision history.
 
10:43 AM
^ done all
 
I think I'd much rather have popcorn instead :)
 
tosses @JonClements a handful of popcorn
 
12:23 PM
a new reviewer clicks "Requires Editing" for everything in Triage within a minute i.stack.imgur.com/tAlIU.png
 
@SamuelLiew So that's a 2048 day ban correct?
 
Unfortunately mods can only give out a max of 365 days
 
Oh, well I'll remind you 09/03/2021 to renew it
and 2022, 2023.... and a few more times after that
FWIW, I think that's worth adding to your meta post
It really does show the root of the problem
 
Well, if one was to listen to some of the doom-sayers what with coronavirus - there might be no-one to remind :p (or review...)
@SamuelLiew much needed... can you imagine what it was like for years when you could only issue 30 days and then the system would still only on next failed audits do two days again... sighs :)
 
really? wow
oh yeah I think I read about it somewhere
 
12:30 PM
Think it was Brad that kept pushing the issue to finally get the 365 and other bits that got changed... let's hope your effort here is equally as successful :)
 
perhaps it's time to kick up a fuss to bring the custom field max to at least 3650 so I don't have to manually check for and renew permabans so often
I'm already paying for the meta post with the serial downvotes i.stack.imgur.com/KWcPL.png
 
Must be doing something right then!
 
b-but you posted the meta post 3hrs ago, most of those downvotes are from 5hrs ago
 
aha must be a disgruntled review banned user then
 
Success in numbers, the red means another happy customer
 
12:52 PM
Just discovered this, thanks to Sam's post on SO Meta. So... After reading the Info, is this where to "alert" when I come across someone(s) who review in a questionable manner? Where up until now I've raised a flag? Any review queue?
 
@CindyMeister here, it's specifically for completed triage reviews with 2+ requires edits which should be unsalvagable
 
@Nick Yeah, just saw the pinned star. I'm on an iPad, so this stuff isn't "in your face" as on a big screen... Sorry!
 
or extremely questionable triage reviews, like 3 looks okay on a blatantly awful post, but they should be provided with a brief explaination as to why they're raised
Ahh yeah, stars aren't great to look at on the mobile view
 
@Nick Can't scroll... <sigh>
 
@SamuelLiew Re: your edit "there is no link to this page if you're currently review-banned." - I assume you mean no obvious route, there's the open in new tab/middle click option
 
@Nick yup... only if you know though :)
 
@JonClements Well I did say no obvious route ;)
 
I've never quite understood why the system when either it/a moderator issues a review ban, that it doesn't do something similar to what a moderator message does.... it auto-sends a message with the ban reason and some links... that way - no one can really miss it...
(except the moderator the message comes from is effectively the "Community" user)... it'd also allow a one-time reply to say: "I don't understand" or something so that a moderator at their convenience can reply to give further advice if they think it's going to be of use instead of meta posts and then keep dupe closing stuff...
 
@JonClements Well the solution for that is simple.... issue suspensions for bad reviewing /s
 
1:10 PM
I got a very pleasant message from the mods: "We wish you a pleasant vacation from the site, and we look forward to your return!" ^^
 
MORE review bans. MORE meta post dupe closure. MORE confusion.
 
and issue longer suspensions so users have more time to figure it out themselves
 
"Sam The Suspender" has a ring to it :p
 
it's ineffective if the review suspension is so short. I mean, the first review audit ban is 2 days.
 
@SamuelLiew Sam, is it possible for mods to check moderator message history on user accounts?
 
1:12 PM
yes, mod message and review history
 
Yup @Nick :)
 
So if you look at my history, you'll see I have a message from Nov 5th last year, and I never replied to it, so.... I still have that reply box... does that mean I could theoretically just send a single message to the mods whenever I so chose?
 
one workaround proposed in mod chat was to accompany a review ban with a mod message - but I got no time for that especially we do not have an existing canned template
@Nick yes that is correct.
 
Seems strange that the option to reply doesn't expire
But i can understand why for the users who may have an extremely long ban and wish to gather thoughts etc. prior to replying
 
and if you reply to it, all the mods can view the reply in the mod inbox, and the mod who sent the original message will receive a notification in the personal inbox (together with other notifications like comments/edits/chat pings/etc.)
 
1:19 PM
Only the mod who sent it receives a notification of it?
 
yup - but everyone else can see it's there - they just don't get a personal notification of a reply
 
Hmmm, if that's the case I may reply to it, as a... token of appreciation, but I'd wanna be sure I knew who sent it, I think i do, but not certain
 
If it was Nov 5th - it definitely wasn't me LOL
 
Aware ;p
@SamuelLiew Long shot, but can you confirm who sent the message, no names, but was it the one whom I had a relevant comment conversation with, the link is in the message
You should be able to confirm from comment context there's no malice involved ^^"
 
Yes I can see who sent it
 
1:26 PM
>.> (not sure you read what I actually asked)
 
Nevermind
 
 
2 hours later…
3:00 PM
I have a ridiculous idea. What if I created a script to instantly review ban any user who performs any Triage action, with the message "Triage is broken. Do NOT touch (link to featured meta post)"
5
 
You're right - that's fairly ridiculous :)
 
Desperate times calls for desperate measures or something...
 
@SamuelLiew I actually quite like it, except that every user will then have a "tainted" history. Everything we do here does on our record. That includes bans and declined flags, right?
 
Nobody can view their review ban history anyway
 
@SamuelLiew there is that...but measured and sane approaches should always out :)
 
3:04 PM
@SamuelLiew True. They cannot. But lets say I make a mistake a some point in the future. My ban for that will depends on my history, will it not?
 
@Scratte automated bans will pick up the very last ban duration... manual bans, a moderator can choose whatever duration... and if they realise they've made a mistake, they can leave an annotation on the user account saying: "this suspension/review ban etc... shouldn't have been made - please disregard in future moderation decisions" or something
(mods can - although it's a little fiddly also reset the default ban duration time anyway for a user by unbanning from review, then rebanning for just a day or something, then unbanning again)
(that way, any automated ban goes back to the 2 day as usual)
 
@JonClements Hmm.. interesting. I had no idea that I could have improved my record by "repenting" (which I believe is what user do now by acknowledging that they understand their actions to be wrong). I just waited it out :) I didn't care about the 4 days. I did care that it went on my record though.
2 days?!?.. I must have made several mistakes on my first day then. Mine was 4 days :)
It's not really very important for me anymore though. I usually spend 15 min on a review and I end up pressing Skip anyway, so I'm not even reviewing most days.
 
@Scratte as @Sam says... no one (except diamonds) can see your review ban history - ironically even yourself which is part of what Sam's trying to make more obvious here...
unless it was manually done by a mod, then your first review ban is 2 days... you'd have then had to failed another audit within 30 days of that to get 4 days... you couldn't have done it in the same day :)
 
@JonClements It was most certainly a manual ban by a mod. Since then I've spent about 120 hours on meta to work out how to improve reviewing. It's not working very well for me. I think it's more important to sort out the policy, and to sort out the UI.
 
well, it seems things are getting responded to more these days re: this kind of stuff... mods have been moaning about the audit and review system for years...
 
3:18 PM
At least it's getting some more focused attention now.
 
I know I made my fair share of mucking up review banning when I shouldn't have and other times lifted a load of automatic bans because basically, the reviewer did the right thing given what they were expected to look at etc...
 
I just wish there had been a warning sigh on reviewing, something like: You need to read every single post in the help center + theses 45 post in full on meta in order to understand what to do in some of the corner cases
 
@Scratte yeah... but click a few buttons and get shiny badges... why should they actually read about stuff? :p
 
I like shiny badges :D
 
I'm not implying one shouldn't read about stuff. I'm saying reviewing is pretty much relying on the Tom Sawyering effect. The badges make that very clear. So why not just warn people that if they want to be reviewers, they need to understand much more about the site and it's policies.
 
3:27 PM
@Scratte again... I think Sam's mentioned that :)
I'd not like to think we get to the point of you click to review and for a little while you get a wall of text about things and a "read this, this and this" and then a checkbox to confirm you've read those (as we all know that never works...)
 
You're right. That doesn't work. That's why almost no one read the legal part that they agreed to when creating their profile :)
 
I might chip in with some ideas in an answer later but right now... it's in safe hands :)
 
But.. there is a link, where all information is contained, when someone finds that it's probably a good idea to read it. Reviewing is not like that. I read a post last week, where every entry had 10 links.. it took me all week to get through it.
 
There's definitely more work needed for the "newer" users on how to post/review etc... on the site... I imagine that because for some "long timers" - it's just something they've done or "grew up with" - they just know... and somehow that information/knowledge needs to be conveyed more conveniently... exactly how that happens/will work is the difficult bit
 
@JonClements Thank you :) That is so very accurately the entire problem here :)
I'm trying to catch up with 10 years of experience. In less than a month.
 
4:09 PM
@Scratte it's fantastic you're making that effort - some won't though.
 
@JonClements Thank you. That's very encouraging. Mostly because the process is making me feel like an utter failure. I'm not even sure if I'm at the bottom to the left of Mount Stupid or in the Valley of Despair.
 
oh... you're welcome... if you look at some of my MSO posts - I'd often release review bans for someone making a good faith attempt and "not quite getting it" if I believed they understood such things...
it'd just be nicer moving forward if the system didn't have to be retroactive - so a big thumbs up to Sam for really trying to push this forward again
 
Yes, I've seen a few of your posts on meta :) But you're less scary without the diamond :D
 
Any chance i could get some info from a moderator about bad reviews
I've been barred from reviewing for nearly 2 weeks for a decision that 1/3rd of the reviewers agreed with, was wondering what thd eal was
what the deal was***
 
@ZacharyCraig Sam has likely gone to sleep so you may have to wait until he's around but @JonClements is an ex-moderator and may be able to provide assistance
 
4:23 PM
relevant screenshots: https://zcraig.me/files/yrlokyRohoRH1.png
https://zcraig.me/files/1k2ekFb0qY9Ch.png
this is the second time i've had my review priveleges taken away and i'm not too sure what i'm doing wrong, the first one i slipped up and makred something as ok that was really not even answerable
this one is answerable, probably not the best quality, but being banned from review for 2 weeks for a decision where i wasn't the only one who thought it was answerable seems odd to me.
 
I need to head off (gotta get home from work), but I think the issue here is that while the question could be answered, that doesn't necessarily mean it should be answered. If you look at your flagging options (specifically off-topic), you should find one which is for "professional server- or networking-related infrastructure administration". Would you not agree that this is an administrative issue rather than a programming one?
 
@Scratte awww... growls a bit - does that help? LOL
 
eeeeh, i don't think so, it's about customizing a woocommerce site, would you vote to push anything involving htaccess changes off to unix SE?
Is it possible i'm caught in whatever is going on with the review ban issue is
54
Q: Triage needs to be fixed urgently, and users need to be notified upon receiving a review ban!

Samuel LiewPrologue Since late 2019, I have been investigating why posts are ending up in the Help & Improvement (H&I) review queue when it should have been closed in Triage. Unfortunately, due to the poor choice of wording of the Triage action Requires Editing button, more work is created for everyone: ...

I've never had any problems and nowi've been review banned twice in a month
i spend most of my time in the triage review queue
I also generally find the idea of "one strike and you're banned for a week" to be quite harsh, there's no guiding action there
no "hey, this wasn't helpful, we went ahead and did this, but from now on, we'd prefer if you did foo"
 
That's possible, but as I've said, @SamuelLiew has likely headed off for the day, and won't be on til about 00:00 (12 midnight) UTC, as a mod he'll be able to provide more information
 
just a ban for an arbitrary amount of time with an unhelpful canned response as to why
Yeah, i'm just discussing in general, not sure how stackoverflow moderation works
 
4:32 PM
@Nick can't help @Zachary too much here I'm 'fraid... don't have the buttons I use to do as it were :)
 
Ah, so you need said buttons to provide insight?
 
@ZacharyCraig The triage queue has a lot of.... issues..., I think most people in this room would stand by that, we don't want people to stop reviewing, we just want to ensure that what's being done is correct, I'm afraid you'll have to wait for Sam, but I'm sure the patience will go a long way
 
yeah, the way the bans work isn't ideal either, it doesn't even show you the message about why you were banned unless you try going directly to a review queue
just says i don't have any queues availible
 
Yep, don't worry, we're well aware of that issue
 
@ZacharyCraig I'm not a mod - so while I can see your public review history - I can't actually look at the audit history etc...
 
4:34 PM
but also still shows if the queues are high volume and need assistance, which is annoying
 
@Zachary and that's what Sam is trying to address here!
 
I do urge you to go upvote Sam's meta post that you linked as it is looking to address some of your concerns
 
ah, thats good!
 
And i've had a voice chat with SE staff to discuss the issues as well
everyone's aware ^^ don't worry
 
just hopefully it's now got momentum
 
4:37 PM
Upvoted
 
@JonClements Nope.. cute blue eyes. Reminds of a baby coyote growling :D I'll put a link in the Ministry if you have no clue of what I'm talking about :)
 
@Scratte they might shoot flames of fire :) (just saying :p)
@ZacharyCraig there's nothing personal going on here... it's just a case of mods trying to do what they can to protect bad reviews as they lead to so much beep being allowed on the site and then that's more work for everyone else on top
 
Oh yeah i'm sure it's not like a personal attack
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what i'm doing wrong, i've reviewed like 2k questions and never had issues and suddenly 2 bans in a month
maybe i've always been doing it wrong and just never been audited, but that sounds unlikely
 
I'm absolutely sure if a mod sees this, might look at your past reviews, they'll just lift the ban if necessary or if you ask nicely, will tell you why they won't
 
@ZacharyCraig I'm finding this to be very tricky. How do you know you've ever done it right, when there's been no feedback? :) btw: I have no merit or experience myself.
 
4:43 PM
I won't lie, I like reviewing questions, it's a source of amusement and i get to help, not being able to review is going to bug me, but i'm also not trying to exploit the line of communication here to get favors and bans lifted because i asked nicely, y'know?
 
At the end of the day, we just want people to review, and the current tools are no good at teaching how to
 
@ZacharyCraig nah... it's not about favours. Ask about it, grok it and then a mod will most likely lift a ban... because you've shown to care and interest.
(On a laughable note... there's also a mod that failed a review audit - even though they destroyed it themselves as spam :p)
 
@ZacharyCraig As Sam's post mentioned, the length is usually so that you notice you've been banned. Since you've taken the steps to understand what's gone wrong (if you link the review here we can offer guidance), that'll be good enough to justify your un-banning
 
I believe this is the review in question for Zachary's specific ban: stackoverflow.com/review/triage/25540375
 
:%s/be good/should be good/
ah nuts
still wrong; this is why I need search highlighting
 
4:47 PM
ah, yeah, if you wanted a link i'd have linked it, sorry about that.
Didn't mean to send anyone on a goose chase
 
You're fine, my dude.
 
You'd be surprised how easy it is to find those links :p
 
I just opened up your last 5 or so reviews and matched them with the screenshots you posted.
 
It had the post name @Spevacus you could've just looked for the one with that title :p
 
But that would have been the smart thing to do.
 
4:49 PM
Lol
 
@ZacharyCraig In general, you should think of the "Skip" button as your best friend in the Triage queue
 
I was skipping a lot more this round because i was trigger shy about getting banned again
 
Great!
 
Skipping is good
 
Not the shy part, the skipping :)
 
4:50 PM
@Das_Geek I'd like to raise that to "Skip" is your only real friend in any queue.
 
Fair enough ha
 
I have about 5x more skipped reviews than not
 
i don't like the new question queue for that reason
i generally lurk and don't engage with users so it's usually an upvote and move on, or skip;
 
Don't forget your down votes and move on....
 
Much of the time you won't have the domain-specific knowledge to tell if a question is "wrong" for SO (nor are you expected to). How would you know if someone provided enough info if you don't know about what they're asking? So "Skip" it has to be, which is fine
 
4:53 PM
I have about 15x more down votes than upvotes
 
Downvotes, while they may seem "malicious," are a moderation action as well. Indicates that posts are not useful and such.
 
^
 
I rarely downvote, I flag
 
@Nick I find down voting questions to be a good choice IIF one is prepared to go back to see if there's been an improvement on a post. It's not really fair for a down vote to stay on a good post.
 
and also don't you find it silly you should lose points on your rep for downvoting a post?
 
4:54 PM
There are some who would argue that anything that is flag-worthy should also be downvoted. I am not one of those people a lot of the time, but there is a strong correlation for me
 
i like my imaginary internet points
 
It's a lot easier to determine if a post is not useful than if it's useful for me. I personally downvote posts which are bad fits for the site, but only upvote posts which help me personally, which explains my high dv ratio
 
@ZacharyCraig Do you mean downvoting an answer reduces the downvoter's reputation?
 
@ZacharyCraig If the post is removed, you get your points back
 
4:54 PM
^
 
oh, is that so?
 
Yep
 
@ZacharyCraig you only lose rep downvoting answers not questions
 
Huh, guess I didn't know enough about downvoting
 
I mainly downvote blatantly awful answers, or answers that will get removed. Indicating that they're not useful by downvoting makes them eligible for delete votes from higher-privileged users.
What're the criteria for deleting answers for 10k users? I think it's something like -3 or so. For 20k I think it's only -1, but I'm unsure.
 
4:58 PM
Yeah it basically just removes the 2-day waiting period if the downvotes are heavy enough.
 
@Spevacus I like those privileges that's only in the hands of 0.3% of users :D
 
@Spevacus it's -3 for 20k users (for questions)
 
@JonClements Closed questions, correct? Or is it any question under -3?
 
a non-diamond user can't delete a question unless it's closed - so in the case of 20k users, the Q has to be -3 and closed and then you can vote to delete it (in the first 48 hours)
right... gotta run for a bit... bbiab folks
 
 
6 hours later…
Dan
11:20 PM
At first glance, this seems like a question about array merge that needs editing. Why would I determine that this is unsalvageable? And just for curiosity, was "Looks OK" a better choice than "Requires Editing"?
 
user10957435
11:31 PM
@vicpermir I think most of the people here agree it's a terrible name.
 
@Dan What kind of editing do you think it needs? It definitely looks unsalvageable to me, on the basis of it being unclear what the person is asking.
 
Dan
11:47 PM
First he asks how to merge two arrays. Then he asks if/how this can be paginated in Blade. It seems clear enough that with some grammar editing, guidance could be given.
Or maybe someone could ask him for any extra clarification that was needed. What determines if a question is unsalvageable?
 
@Dan If clarification is needed, then the question is "unsalvageable".
If you could not, yourself, make an edit that clarifies the question to the point that it can be answered, then the question needs to be closed, pending an edit from the original author.
"Requires Editing" does not mean that the original author needs to make an edit.
 
To clarify on ""Requires Editing" does not mean that the original author needs to make an edit." - It explicitly means someone other than the original author must be able to make an edit to bring it into being a good question
 
Dan
I see, that helps. Still I'm not sure if this meets that definition. I thought he only wanted to know how to merge elements on two arrays so that he can loop the result. Is it because of his somewhat vague follow-up questions?
 
Are you saying that it was abundantly clear to you what was being asked there, and you could easily imagine someone posting an answer to that effect?
Because it's not to me, and when it's not clear, it doesn't make sense to guess. The question needs to be closed until such time as it is rendered clear.
It is entirely possible, of course, that the question was clear to you when it wasn't to me. That's why we allow editing. And that's why I'm asking, rather than making a statement.
 

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