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12:10 AM
Why is there no consent before starting a service worker?
 
12:20 AM
probably because everyone would say 'no'
and service workers are supposedly meant to make browsing better and more reliable
which is a little bit bullshit
 
 
2 hours later…
2:11 AM
AHHAHAHAH jetbrains indexing time
 
2:40 AM
morn
 
user4639281
3:01 AM
eve'n
 
3:31 AM
is there a good tool to substitute for inotifywait?
 
Rob
\o/ it only took me an hour to fix everything that broke when updating from angular 5.2.10 -> 7.0.4
 
4:00 AM
how would you draw recursion on a piece of paper to someone who does not understand it.
 
4:19 AM
hahaha
 
4:42 AM
Wow just found a website that got two points! It forced me to scroll up (1) to paywall(2)
 
5:24 AM
@Rick a plumbus
@JBis @Rick you guys might like this: github.com/UniWrighte/Safe_Space
lol if you're on Linux it definitely works
 
how about windows linux
 
@Rick are you asking if it will work with WSL?
 
ya
 
it depends if devices are mounted I would guess
So basically if the camera or recording is used through /dev on wsl
so probably not, but I wouldn't doubt if that is yet another vector on windows but could be wrong lol
you could test it though and it wouldn't do any harm (probably but there is always a chance lol)
it will might just log errors a bunch, but more likely just not detect anything unless it's done through the wsl
 
i'll check it out
 
5:34 AM
cool, let me know. We could add support for windows through powershell I'm sure. I think that inotify-tools is POSIX compatible, but I don't know for sure.
 
However, if someone was paranoid I don't know if this would allay their fears
 
really we could find a way around that. Windows is harder though, because things aren't exactly file based or module based in the same way
@Rick I mean if it doesn't then whatever but it definitely works
especially the camera one.
unless you had another kernel somehow connected to your camera, but I don't think that's possible
so basically a seg fault into some kind of something lol
so it not working would basically be a kernel level issue and not an application level one.
 
have you tested it
 
but even if you had a root kit installed the attacker would probably just install an application to access your camera at that point...
@Rick I've tested it with a native app and an electron app
I haven't tested with a browser...
and it only triggers when data is actually streamed. Basically if you see a picture shows up anywhere it triggers or if a program that can record pops up
weird how gnome settings would trigger it before lol...
but that's different in ubuntu studio.. I think it doesn't stream the data to a program but just uses it as a decibel sensor but that still freaks me out
 
do you have a front-facing camera on your phone
 
5:43 AM
who doesn't?
 
if your paranoid about your computer cam wouldn't you also be paranoid about that cam as well
 
I'm not really paranoid about it, but I noticed that every person covers up their laptop cameras... They even had swag at a place I worked that was a branded laptop camera cover that ruined someone's touchpad lol
@Rick also android requires permissions for camera's from apps... I don't know if linux does or if my distro does, but I'd like to make sure myself.
I made it more than anything because of a perceived desire for something like it.
 
Do you remember the rocky movie
 
yeah and someone could stop the process and then hack in or something. If you were that paranoid then you could have it run a test on itself and alert if the test fails or something, but at that point... yeah
@Rick not really lol
 
well the whole movie is about a loser who wins a fight. And I saw an interview with the composer who wrote the song for that movie.
he said something really interesting
 
5:53 AM
what's that?
 
he said the song was about fooling the audience into thinking this loser could win the fight.
 
Well it would follow I guess lol
 
I thought it was a crazy concept. that you could fool people into believing something they would normally not under normal circumstances. It just seemed like a really strange concept to me.
 
@Rick seems intuitive to me.
it's all about the show
Movies are just giant illusions
I mean music for a movie is even more about that than the movie
 
what do you mean? music is about emotions and communication.
 
6:04 AM
@Rick If 1% of the population are psychopaths and they only live to manipulate the rest of the population, then why wouldn't stuff like that happen everyday ever where
@Rick yep and how do you make someone believe something?
emotion
 
Emotion is a form of intelligence, I don't think psychopaths are that intelligent.
 
@Rick I think it's unrelated more or less
Maybe less likely to be intelligent
but not by a significant factor to exclude manipulation from probability
 
well peace out, going to sleep
 
@Rick peace out
 
 
2 hours later…
7:52 AM
anyone knows how to find port of express app without using app.listen() ?
 
app.get('port') ?
 
?
does that gives port no. ?
or express route ?
 
I realize that "a" tags offer a subtle advantage to buttons or whatnot
which is that the browser will show you where the page goes if you hover your mouse above it (at least in Chrome)
so logically if the destination is fixed, it makes sense to try to style an a tag to look like a button
I think most of the world wouldn't care, but it's nice to not have to sift through webpage javascript to know where a button will lead me
 
8:09 AM
@jagdish the name says it no?
@Neil that location tip happens on all browsers
well from my experience. I am not sure about Safari
it is about functionality. A button is a button. A link is a link. Do not mask buttons with links.
 
@KarelG if you were to hover your mouse over the "send" and "upload" buttons on the right of the input here, you'd see there's no location tip
correctly so, because they're not supposed to be links to a new page
 
@KarelG Agreed
 
but sometimes you'll see people create buttons which move you to a new page
 
the browsers can extend that feature
 
that's what I mean, I don't like that they do that
 
8:11 AM
Hey guys, I have an router.post function and it is not recieving the body I send it, but other router functions are
 
long gone are the days when you had to press the bland "Submit" grey windows button to submit a form
 
however, mostly, these buttons are a part of submitting a form
 
you can stylize anything to look like anything else if you really wanted to
 
isn't CSS wonderful?
 
and a form result usually redirects you to a given location. That depends of the outcome of the form handling
 
8:12 AM
possibly, but an ajax request perhaps should remain in the realm of "hidden"
 
validation error? return to same page. application error? return or error page. No errors? to edit page or something
 
if it is a button which changes pages for you, it'd be nice to say, copy the link to pass to a colleague or whatnot
and you only get that if it is an "a" tag
 
Hey, you guys know how in chrome 69 I think it was, it can preevaluate the code?
it gives you back the value before you even submit the code?
 
@JacobSchneider ( Í¡° ͜ʖ Í¡°)
 
well, you could do that to buttons, if the URL changes, display that annotiation at the browser's bottm
 
8:15 AM
Yeah, I suppose it is doable
 
well Neil, I can only say that it is in the W3C standard that anchors only may contain hyperlinks. Not local behavior
 
Chromium's open source is it not?
 
like run the code, except when window.location gets changed, don't do anything
 
yeah, easy as pie!
 
@JacobSchneider You mean in the console?
 
8:15 AM
eg something to open a modal popup. It must be a button, yet you see that an anchor is used instead often
 
@MadaraUchiha Yeah
 
the reason is not difficult: it is easier to style it.
 
Sounds relatively simple to do
 
eval() the code and catch(){} any errors.
 
8:16 AM
I think it's wrong to use a link to open a modal popup for the same reason
having an href="#" onclick="..." is lame
stylize a button for that
 
I've made it a mission to avoid using event attributes where I can
 
event attributes?
 
@KarelG onclick=
 
yeah, onclick, onload
 
@JacobSchneider He means that you shouldn't use a link for things that are not navigation
 
8:17 AM
Correct
 
Opening a modal is not navigation it's "make something happen on the page", which is where you should be using buttons.
 
say that to the designers :P
 
It'd be so much easier to build adblocking services
 
@KarelG .linklike-button { background: none; border: none; color: blue; text-decoration: underline; display: inline; }
You're welcome.
 
this just goes to show why this should not be done
 
8:19 AM
@JacobSchneider A good adblocking service blocks the request from ever leaving. So there's nothing to render the ads to begin with.
 
they just change buttons to anchors because it is easier to style. I don't want a conflict with them because that is a waste of the time. If they want to be stubborn ...
 
@KarelG An anchor is not significantly easier to style than a button.
 
it was.
 
iFrames are the real pain in the arse
 
It's not like other form controls like checkboxes or combo boxes, which are nigh impossible to style and need to be faked.
 
8:20 AM
Hi
 
I avoid using them too
@phoenix Hi
 
that is why I love the ~ operator in CSS
hide checkbox and use a div for your styling
 
@JacobSchneider hi can you help with json objects?
 
!!welcome phoenix
 
8:21 AM
@phoenix Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room rules. If you have a question, just post it, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help. If you want to report an abusive user or a problem in this room, visit our meta.
 
checkbox got checked? apply styling via checkbox:checked ~ div
 
@KarelG I've never seen the ~ before, what does it do?
 
i am retrieving a json format data from my controller in PHP. then what i want to happen is to display these json array in my html view
 
@JacobSchneider General sibling selector. Matches all siblings after the first operand.
 
there in my view i used jquery in calling my controller
 
8:23 AM
@MadaraUchiha Oh sweet
 
i.e. checkbox:checked ~ div matches all siblings after a checked checkbox which are also divs.
 
user6718998
Hi. can anybody tell me how to write res.send to work with passport ? pastebin.com/04N1fwry right now, only JSON is sent
 
<div>
  <p>
  <a> # this one
</div>
<a>

div p ~ a {
   anchor in same level as div gets selected
}
 
Oh that's so handy
 
As opposed to + which only selects it if it's right after.
 
8:23 AM
Sweet
 
@KarelG That's not the real power of ~ tho, add an element between <div> and <a>, and a would still match.
 
if you're using a piece of html to replace say, a checkbox, wouldn't a + b make more sense?
you could have multiple checkboxes
 
user6718998
Hi. can anybody tell me how to write res.send to work with passport ? pastebin.com/04N1fwry right now, only JSON is sent
 
@MadaraUchiha simple example. I use it mainly for styling the state of the div after a checkbox being (un)checked
 
@Neil It would, although normally you'd wrap the whole thing in a <label> anyway.
 
8:25 AM
my code is something like this
 
@phoenix Simply do the element you want to insert the array into el.appendChild(document.createTextNode(JSON.stringify(JSONData)))
 
the checkbox itself is hidden.
 
1 message moved to Trash can
@phoenix Please don't post unformatted code - hit Ctrl+K before sending, use up-arrow to edit messages, and see the faq.
 
@phoenix Don't paste unformatted code
hit CTRL + K
 
you do not have to repeat caprica :P
 
8:25 AM
but what i only get is the first row of the result , how am i suppose to do that
 
@KarelG Sorry
 
@CapricaSix oh im sorry
 
@phoenix data[0]
 
gotcha grab some ☕
 
@phoenix CapricaSix is a bot
 
8:27 AM
$.each(data, function(index, row) {
  if(row != "") {
    $('.vts1').html('<h4 class="m-b-0 text-white">Validated Transaction Summary</h4>');
    $('.vts2').html('<table class="table table-bordered table-striped"><tr><td>Status</td><td>No. of Transactions</td><td>Amount of Service Fees</td></tr><tr><td>'+row.status+'</td><td>'+row.count_txn+'</td><td>'+row.total_sf+'</td></tr></table>');
  });
is this right? hehe
 
@phoenix I don't quite understand what you're getting at
 
@phoenix you're changing the inner contents of html for every tag with vts1 and vts2 classes and for each row.. I'm guessing that's not what you meant to do
 
@JacobSchneider im sorry, what im trying to do here is to display in a table form the data that im getting from my controller in php as json format.
 
Oh I see, that's quite straightforward
is there a piece of sample data that we can see?
 
ok wait, i'll do a screenshot
 
8:34 AM
Okay
 
You want to extract all tags with vts1 and vts2 before your call using each
and then one by one, you grab it using the index and update its contents
if that's what you wanted to do
 
oochie, types install has been doing something for the last 15 mins
and im decently worried lol
 
@KamilSolecki ... oochie types?
 
sorry where can i paste the image?
 
@MadaraUchiha fixed
 
8:40 AM
Oh, smthing like that happened to me! Visual Studio was downloading something for an hour, turns out it was just an update that could have been done in 10 minutes but wasn't cause of our shitty ass internet
@phoenix click upload and select the image
 
lmao what is going on lol
why did it attempt to install some kind of image module
WAT
not the thing you expect when running npm install @types/node @types/react @types/react-dom --save-dev
 
@JacobSchneider i cant see upload button her
*here
 
really?
 
I better quickly nuke this repo this is sketchy
 
down the bottom
 
8:42 AM
that's what she said
 
well, that I didn't see coming
 
that's also what she said
 
I was so thinking about spelling it the other way
 
that's what she.. oh nevermind
 
@Neil Haha
is there a CSS root selector like there is in XPath
 
8:44 AM
@JacobSchneider html {
 
oh haha
 
XPath is for XML, where the root element could be anything. HTML is not so free-form.
 
I would use body but whatever
 
Ah right, there's also :root.
 
is there?
 
wow, future proofing for the day in which the root tag of an html document won't be html
 
please see here my sample screenshot pasteboard.co/HNRzez2.jpg
 
that'll be like in the year 3018
 
I'm actually pretty terrified of January 19, 2038
 
8:47 AM
That date has the potential of a real "bug 2000"
 
the real y2k
 
@JacobSchneider :D
 
@JacobSchneider Because that date, at around 3AM UTC, is when all unix epochs represented by a 32bit int would overflow.
 
I can't imagine that being good
 
Any system still using 32 bit numbers to store dates would be broken.
 
8:49 AM
Realistically, what are the chances that this causes problems?
 
Now, hopefully, by 2038, there won't be any of those still in existence
But my decade or so as a programmer tells me that that hope is misplaced.
 
Well, there's still commodore 64s
 
there will always be problems
Really it's a matter of percentages
 
@Neil I know for a fact that there are some military and/or governmental mission critical systems that rely on IE6.
Today.
Draw your own conclusions from that.
 
Oh. My hopes for avoiding a nuclear apocalypse just diminished ever so slightly
 
8:51 AM
Yah.
 
I think about that time the Russians wrote a program to watch the sky and automatically launch a retaliation nuke in response to incoming projectiles..
There were 3 of said systems in effect, and one night, two of the three called for immediate launch of the nuke, and it only failed because the third didn't agree
Turns out they saw the moon in the sky, and the third one was under cloud cover
 
Probably the only reason we didn't have nuclear holocaust
 
cause the russian's can't code
haha
Bye guys
 
8:56 AM
they won't intervene because 2038 is not "nearby"
I know a local law firm here that uses some legacy C code from nineties to maintain their documentation services. They have problems to run it on new systems today.
the parents of a colleague were one of their clients. My colleague wants to move over the documents to another law firm. When he was sitting there, the system has crashed 3 times.
 
9:29 AM
nobody ever does the responsible thing when it comes to software
2038 will come and on January 17th, some manager will go to some poor peon of a systems administrator and go, "Say, about that epoch problem.. we're good, right?"
And only then will actions be made to avoid a potential disaster
not only that, but it'll be the systems administrator's fault for not having fixed it sooner no less
As if managers have ever liked it when we dedicate time towards tasks we deem are important which have no obvious impact in the here and now
 
managers that think on long term are rare
 
9:44 AM
@all Hi all
 
but that's the irony isn't it? Isn't that their job?
 
They're supposed to manage
 
9:57 AM
yes but the thing is, the real decision are at shareholders. And they only want to see what they get as deposits at the end of book year.
 
10:21 AM
you're right. That's how it is, not how it should be
Most managers assume managing amounts to showing up at an unreasonable time before the deadline that only they know of, and then insist on the task being done within the unrealistic deadline, being sure to get upset when said deadline is not met to their expectations
And for the love of god, they cannot seem to understand that the fault is their own
 
 
1 hour later…
11:34 AM
Why can't programmers be managers?
It seems like the most logical thing ever
 
@Neil Because we're good with computers, not people.
 
That's a stereotype
plenty of programmers are good with people
You'd mostly need someone who understands what is a realistic expectation and what isn't
 
Computers (even JavaScript which is wacky by most standards), has defined clear rules with possibilities for abstraction and ignoring the small details. People do not. People are not logical entities.
 
Well ok, you can be good at programming and also be good at playing monopoly
I don't see how being good with people is mutually exclusive with understanding computers
 
Although, I think the clashing "talents" is the ability to "just get things done" vs "do things right"
Most of "just get things done" is finding whatever works for now and ship it, even at the expense of quality or future "cleanup" time.
 
11:36 AM
I've known programmers in my career which were okay programmers but excellent "negotiators"
In fact, the one I knew was often the one to talk deadlines and communicate potential problems
 
People who have this talent are usually regarded as not-as-good programmers, because programming is often said to be about getting things right, rather than getting them done at all.
People who do not have this talent and are only focused on doing things right, lack the "show progress and deliverables" attitude that a manager needs.
 
well there's a certain OCDness about it, I'll admit, but we're not all autistic freaks
 
Striking a balance between the two is difficult.
 
I don't think there's any significant relationship between the two talents
 
I normally have trouble actively compromising on a solution in favor of delivering it faster (and sometimes even over delivering it at all). It's the biggest disagreement that @BenjaminGruenbaum and I have.
 
11:39 AM
I've always thought my wife would make a great analyst. She hates anything involving programming, and yet she's very insightful and logical
She's corrected my logic on many occasions in ways I really couldn't have seen for myself without some serious consideration
 
He'd argue that delivering value now at the expense of ever mounting technical debt is acceptable, under the assumption that the debt is managed and is paid off in chunks. And I'd argue that that assumption is often misplaced.
 
I agree with @BenjaminGruenbaum, but at the same time, I don't think management can have a realistic understanding about what technical debt means
and therefore I don't think it should be allowed for that reason
otherwise it's just "problems that aren't really problems" for management
Maybe if you had a programmer turned manager, he could handle it
but he'd have to have the balls to say, "No, we're not pushing another release until this thing gets fixed, now that we have time to do it"
 
Name one project that is a) big b) doesn't have a ton of technical debt
 
@Neil It's about communication. But I've found that even if I translate it into concrete numbers (at the expense of accuracy) like "I can do this 2 days sooner, but that would mean that half a year from now, some things will take a month more than it should", management would often still take it.
 
Technical debt is inherent to the development process and paying it off is important. Stopping every time before getting any debt means you don't move fast enough.
I agree it's about communication more often than not.
 
11:44 AM
@BenjaminGruenbaum You're misunderstanding. The would always be technical debt. But that technical debt, in my opinion, should be constrained to being the result of changing requirements, and not some misplaced need to deliver faster by marginal amounts.
 
Then prototyping is prohibited?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum In production? Hell yeah.
 
I don't think anyone is suggesting that technical debt can be completely eliminated from a big project
Someone needs to work on reducing technical debt..
if it isn't the manager, it must be the developer
ideally it is the manager though..
 
@MadaraUchiha I humbly disagree, not all code needs to be of the same standard :D
That is, the most important property of code is "working and delivering value for someone", then "easy to change" and elegance is at a distant number 50 or something
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You can't predict in advance what would end up being important code and what would not.
 
11:46 AM
Which is why you have to be willing to go back and refactor things often
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum We agree on this. But management often is not willing to go back and refactor things often.
 
@MadaraUchiha but you'll concede that if management is willing to go back and refactor things often, allowing technical debt is acceptable in some contexts
 
@Neil Sure.
 
In other words, depends on management
 
@MadaraUchiha then that's a management problem. I don't want to decide on what the right process is based on one side saying one thing and then pursuing another.
 
11:48 AM
That requires a certain amount of trust between R&D and management though.
 
With management - it's mostly a communication issue.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum But it's not management necessarily that hurts from it.
 
:D
@MadaraUchiha sure it is, technical debt bites management just as much as it does developers - they just have worse information.
 
Even if management gracefully takes the hit in productivity, it's you who ends up working on insane code.
 
Why would management want to take a hit in productivity?
 
11:49 AM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Empirically, they do, almost every single time.
 
We once told a project manager (old fart, needed to go into retirement frankly), that a particular 3rd party software only worked with windows, and therefore couldn't work with Unix based systems. 3 months later, he sold our software to a client which used exclusively Unix-based systems
@BenjaminGruenbaum management does a lot of things it shouldn't do if it were looking out for the best interests of the company
 
Your approach might sound more practical than mine, but I think your axioms are false. my approach is more defensive, for sure.
 
@MadaraUchiha empirically you got plenty of time to refactor code in almost all cases, did you not?
 
R&D does stupid shit against the interests of the company as well, frankly
 
That is, you got time to work on improving most of the parts that annoyed you
 
11:53 AM
How many times do we give deadlines only to push them further ahead because it is more complex than we thought?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's not entirely true, but I don't think that's a conversation for a public forum.
@Neil That's totally our fault though. We're afraid to give a properly pessimistic assessment because we're afraid/lazy/whatever to explain what technical debt might be in the way, and what unknown unknowns we're afraid of.
If you were to, in advance, give an estimate of a month to a project that you really think would have taken 2-3 weeks, and explain that there are unknowns, usually management wouldn't tell you "That's a cool story bro, so 2-3 weeks it is?"
And if they would, they should be willing of taking the hit of "it was more complex than expected, and I did warn you about it"
 
@Neil how could they buy before even trying it out?
 
@MadaraUchiha Oh it is absolutely our fault.
The temptation is there to give optimistic deadlines
 
@KarelG Ha! You appear to be ignorant of how sales works
 
@KarelG Demo on windows machine
 
11:57 AM
"Guys, we need to deliver this feature. Our sales/CEO told the client/shareholder that it's already in advanced testing stages, and it needs to be ready in 3 days"
 
I never use something from my budget on something that I did not test myself
 
Probably some assurance that yes yes, we can make it work in whichever way you wish, dear client, sir
 
that can lead to a court case
 
that's a typical sales problem.. "Well my work is done.. I sold the product..."
 
depends of the contract
 
11:58 AM
@KarelG The company would argue that it's a bug and that it cost them to fix it too.
I doubt you can sue over something like that unless you can prove ill intent
 
I see.
 
Hi guys! Hello from Thailand... Long holiday. Could somebody have a look at my code (just learning still). This is a prototype JS missile... I am slowed down, when there are quite a few damn things... I want to know why. Thanks all :-) jsfiddle.net/alexhermanuk/enbp73o4/1
 

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