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12:00 AM
@KendallFrey not sure if being pedantic... or just unsure...
 
@KendallFrey got flagged? CLICKS VALID
 
@JanDvorak but they are not making decisions for their self.
awww fuck.
@KyleTrauberman someone bumped up the chat. :P
@KendallFrey sorry...
 
@rlemon i didnt think that u will use bad words to me :(,
 
So, proprioreception + decision making? I'm afraid we're already there.
 
@JanDvorak it's more than that - hard to explain over a chat when I'm trying to explain a theory I heard and agree with but couldn't really explain to others coherently.
if that makes any sense.
first try to define what makes you sentient and not, for example, your cat.
assuming a cat is not sentient. (if you cannot move to another form of life)
 
12:03 AM
Why do you think, subjectively, a cat is not sentient? The difference in physical form or the absence of vocal chords shouldn't matter.
 
and decision making in robots is not quite yet organic. They do not learn to learn to make decisions.
@JanDvorak for me, it's their ability to not be able to appreciate themselves as beings.
watch a cat.. really WATCH a cat.. they have no knowledge that they are them.
 
Is that really the definition of sentient?
 
no
 
Well...
 
@rlemon watch an average human. I'm sure you'll draw the same conclusion here.
 
12:05 AM
as far as I look, I cannot find an agreement on what defines sentient.
 
i don' think we have such definition
 
An interesting point is, at what age does a human become sentient?
 
@tereško (we don't.. but i'm giving people with their own ideas some credit because if it makes sense to them.. well.. who am I to argue)
 
Because I have no doubt that my cat who is a few years old, is more capable and self aware than a newborn baby
 
@phenomnomnominal above I stated ~18 months. They did do studies on this based on their perception on what defined sentient.
 
12:06 AM
Ahh i see, sorry, I was playing pool haha
 
@phenomnomnominal the brain starts forming in two weeks after conception, IIRC, and the ability to form memories (hold state) soon follows.
 
you could not even use "self-awareness" as criteria, because that would exclude any any creatures that are sentient only in groups (think - sentient ants)
hmm .. or maybe you can
 
@tereško the collection is not an individual.
 
You could possibly argue that an ant colony, or bee hive is sentient
 
cells make a whole... cells themselves are alive. but not sentient (imo)
 
12:08 AM
But a ant, or a bee is not
 
I think if we use any English sentence to describe sentience, there will be some system that fits the description but is obviously not sentient.
 
if the collective is self-aware, it would be by definition sentient
... i think
 
hehe, exactly.
 
@rlemon why not consider a group of ants as a sentient being composed of organic creatures?
 
On a slightly related topic, what's the difference between good and evil?
 
12:09 AM
@JanDvorak we already did .. you might be experiencing a lag
 
a group of small organic creatures vs a large collection of small organic creature.... I don't see how this is different aside from organization.
 
One might say, good causes pleasure in others, while evil causes pain on others.
 
@KendallFrey none. It is a matter of perspective.
 
^ that
 
So then, what's the difference between pleasure and pain?
 
12:09 AM
@KendallFrey you can define good and evil quite easily in any system that features God.
 
masochist: please, hit me
sadist: no
 
If pleasure causes one to feel happy, then what is happy? etc. etc.
lol
 
@KendallFrey please ellaborate
 
@JanDvorak any system that features god deals with the unknown and assumptions. We're already dealing with enough voodoo trying to define sentient. to brush it under the rug and say "well, god did it." is convenient but ultimately nonconstructive for the current conversation.
we need facts based on tangible reproducible experiments.
 
@rlemon yup. What about "good is what improves the mean standard of living (whatever the hell that is)"?
 
12:12 AM
alas, I will probably be waiting a long time for them.
 
Pleasure isn't the opposite of pain
 
@JanDvorak to me, "good" is what you enjoy that doesn't hinder others abilities to enjoy what they perceive as "good"
 
@phenomnomnominal You mean, they aren't mutually exclusive.
 
if we all take this stance.. eventually we'll live in a dull, mundane, peaceful world. (so I don't suggest it for all)
I like a little conflict.
just don't go hurting people.
 
is killing animals for food bad? The animals surely don't appreciate that.
 
12:13 AM
@KendallFrey, that too
 
Wikipedia seems to define them as opposites.
 
@JanDvorak nope - animals are not sentient (imo) of the 'crime' (we dubbed a crime).. also, animals kill other animals to eat.
 
@JanDvorak, killing animals for food no, the way we do it, often yes
 
killing animals for sport.. well yea. I think killing for anything but food is wrong.
food and bugs in my house.
 
@rlemon higher primates have sense/concept of "justice"
 
12:15 AM
fuck the bugs in my house.. they can all die.
@tereško so do dolphins and some other animals. can't remember which
Elephants???
 
@rlemon so, the definition of "good" relies on the definiton of "sentience"? That's not.. err...
 
Elephants are SO awesome.
 
@rlemon Yes, I imagine they would if you did.
!!s/SO/Stack Overflow/
 
@JanDvorak to define something subjective is to define what makes us subjective by nature... so yea.. it is mutual.
 
@KendallFrey Invalid command /s/SO/Stack Overflow/
@KendallFrey Elephants are Stack Overflow awesome. (source)
 
12:16 AM
brb need another beer.
 
Hummingbirds are awesome as well, but definitely not as sentient as pigs.
 
@JanDvorak good and bad depend on "total amount of suffering caused"
 
@tereško then eating animals is bad, unless you just can't be happy as a vegetarian.
 
killing someone in general might be bad, killing someone who is in pain for lethal illness is good
 
One might argue that some humans aren't sentient. Stack Overflow is a good place to find specimens.
 
12:18 AM
@tereško I disagree. One may want to live despite pain.
 
Living in itself is pleasure.
 
@JanDvorak .. so say people who are not in pain
 
Otherwise people would commit suicide as soon as they can.
 
@KendallFrey many do
 
what is bad about it ?
 
12:20 AM
... we do need to eat meat... had we not we would not be what we are today. Eating meat can be directly attributed to us developing a larger cerebral cortex
 
You mean, what's bad about killing people that don't want to die despite their suffering?
 
however today with suppliments.. yea.. you can do without.
 
If you stop and think about it, meat is one of the most disgusting foods.
 
Not only disgusting, but damaging to the environment
 
and if you do the research, you also learn that it is one of the most important
 
12:21 AM
^^
 
sorry im not good in jsfiddle ,what this example use for jquery library? i used this script and added jquery 1.9.1 but didnt work for me
 
Not after heating up. Also, if you desire proteins instead of calories, meat is a viable choice.
 
What was once a twitching juicy mass inside an animal called muscle, is now a dry lump on your plate called meat.
 
@echo_me: let's try this one more time with punctuation.
 
12:22 AM
if you don't want to eat it - cool. go get some supplements and be healthy. just don't condone it.. it is a vital part of life for us.
 
condone?
or condemn?
 
!!/define condone
 
I'm not a vegetarian... to be clear
 
@rlemon condone: con·doned, con·don·ing, con·dones To overlook, forgive, or disregard without protest or censure. (source)
 
I don't condemn eating meat any more than I condemn eating vege's that have been shipped halfway round the world.
 
12:23 AM
Me neither.
I love meat.
 
ahh
my bad.
 
@KendallFrey In case you didn't notice, vegetation is also a dead previously living thing...
 
(fu confusing english)
 
I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm not eating meat for lent (not religious either, just 40 days is a good length of time)
Living things are previously living things too
 
@phenomnomnominal make sure you do get your proteins in other places.
 
12:24 AM
And as far as anyone's best guess can go, vegetables and mammals have the same ancestors...
 
could make you sick if your body is dependent on it.
 
I can see meat being disgusting, but I don't see anything revolting in the flesh of an apple, or a leaf of lettuce.
 
Yeah buddy, lots of eggs
 
@KendallFrey possibly because you are made of meat and contain a shred of mortality?
 
@KendallFrey as phenomnomnominal said, the flesh of an apple was once the flesh of a mammal...
 
12:25 AM
@rlemon Could be.
@twiz But it never was slippery and squishy.
 
but right now i'm looking at this:
 
@KendallFrey huh? why?
 
I quite like the idea of being buried and having a tree planted over me.
 
so i can't take anyone serious.
 
12:26 AM
Whenever you take a drink you're drinking some of Hitler's piss.
 
Cremation is such a fucking stupid idea
 
What you don't like about cremation?
 
Whenever you breathe, you're breathing in some of Hitler's farts.
Enjoy the rest of your day.
 
@phenomnomnominal I quite like the fact that regardless of whether anyone does that, a tree will probably end up eating me no matter what. And that even if I were cremated, and thrown in the ocean, I would be eaten by algea and etc, etc...
 
@phenomnomnominal Why did I read that as buried alive...
 
12:27 AM
We burn enough stuff already... let's not fill the atmosphere with burnt people too.
@KendallFrey... I don't know. But I'm scared.
 
You can be cremated and the remains stored in an airtight box. Then you are sure to not become an apple-fodder.
 
me, I hope I we get to the point in our civilizations technical and social evolution that I can choose when I die. I don't like the idea of it not being in my control. what if I want to live to 300?? what if at 110 i'm all like. eh, i'm good now.
 
@phenomnomnominal hahaha you should post that on causes.com
 
I would like to choose to never die
 
@JanDvorak, but the smoke from the fire doesn't stay in an airtight box
 
12:29 AM
@rlemon Does that include reincarnation?
 
The carbon released when you burn a person goes into the atmosphere too
 
Because if it does, I'd just keep rolling the dice until I hit jackpot.
 
@JanDvorak no, just means it might take millions of years. Probably less, since people will probably stop giving a shit about my ashes a lot sooner...
 
@KendallFrey i'm a believer in the singularity (Ray Kurzweil) - might explain some of my outlooks.
 
@phenomnomnominal I would really like to know the carbon footprint of a cremation... haha
 
12:31 AM
The technological singularity is the theoretical emergence of superintelligence through technological means. Since the capabilities of such intelligence would be difficult for an unaided human mind to comprehend, the technological singularity is seen as an occurrence beyond which events cannot be predicted. Proponents of the singularity typically state that an "intelligence explosion", where superintelligences design successive generations of increasingly powerful minds, might occur very quickly and might not stop until the agent's cognitive abilities greatly surpass that of any human. ...
 
@phenomnomnominal you could contain the smoke. Yes, I do realise it's 70+kg of gaseous substance. I do realise containing 70+kg of gaseous substance is difficult.
 
@rlemon Its difficult to see how it could go any other way at this point.
 
I like the idea that life isn't finite. It gives it purpose other than "be good so you go to heaven" . I just get a bit jealous that people will get to be around after I'm gone, since such cool stuff will happen!
 
thats how I see it anyways.
 
@JanDvorak, it's a lot easier to just put someone in the ground, so they can contribute to the life cycle of the planet again in a meaningful way
 
12:32 AM
... and become food for the trees.
 
As opposed to pollution
 
@phenomnomnominal but what if you were given a choice.. like modern medicine made it so you could "fountain of youth" and you could live forever.. but you didn't have too. I would like to think at a point we would all just decide it was time. we were done with life.
 
I know which I prefer
@rlemon, absolutely, that's the ideal
 
@phenomnomnominal Someone has found a solution for you.... mnthresholdnetwork.wordpress.com/2012/07/29/…
 
thats what the singularity is about (in one aspect).
 
12:34 AM
@twiz there's lots of alternatives!
Like Resomation
 
The Singularity Is Near: When Humans Transcend Biology is a 2005 update of Raymond Kurzweil's 1999 book The Age of Spiritual Machines and his 1990 book The Age of Intelligent Machines. In it, as in the two previous versions, Kurzweil attempts to give a glimpse of what awaits us in the near future. He proposes a coming technological singularity, and how we would thus be able to augment our bodies and minds with technology. He describes the singularity as resulting from a combination of three important technologies of the 21st century — genetics, nanotechnology, and robotics (including artif...
 
@rlemon I have a feeling lots of people would impulsively hit the off switch after things like breakups, job loss, increase in gas prices, etc.
 
@rlemon I mean if I didn't age, I'm not sure why I would want to die... aside from there being way too many other fucking people around.
 
@KendallFrey, yeah and that's called natural selection
 
12:35 AM
That's another thing we have completely fucked up
 
The fountain of youth is kind of a stupid idea, since it would basically just cause famine...
 
@twiz in Rays ideal singularity "future" - virtual and physical existence would co-exist. if we were a merger of man and machine we wouldn't need the organs we need for just living (or organs at all). we would exist as nano swarms and our main goals would be satisfaction and trying to learn new things to learn.
 
@twiz why ?
 
^ like 300 pages in two sentences.. forgive me.
 
@rlemon ummm... well the machines would just become the organs... and you'd still need your brain
 
12:37 AM
no - your brain is just an advanced computer.
 
If I could 'live' in a computer program that was functionally identical to the real universe, I'd be fine with that
 
@tereško no one dying=less food to go around
 
if you could convert your consciousnesses (whatever it is) to a digital medium it would be a fraction of the size (physically)
 
@twiz, you assume that we would need to eat
 
with nano swarms you could be your physical form... or exist in a virtual "world" so to speak.
 
12:38 AM
@rlemon of course, thats assume it is possible
 
@twiz it seems that you are unaware of two facts: females have limited number of ovum and all of the advanced societies currently have 0 or negative growth rate
 
@phenomnomnominal true, but I mean the energy has to come from somewhere...
 
Meh, fusion
 
@twiz and I do. hence the belief. :P I know it's just a presumption. don't get me wrong. but I hope and do believe it will be true in my lifetime (really hope :P)
 
@tereško I guess you're unaware that people die in those societies...
 
12:40 AM
@tereško 2012 was actually the first time the growth rate of the world actually declined (still up, but up less percentage wise than last year. first time ever)
 
also , there is that small factor that , if you have no limited lifespan, then such things as "climate change" and "scarcity of resources" are not something that "will happen after i am long dead"
 
s/ever/recorded history ofc/
 
@rlemon, probably ever
Oh
Nah ever
 
maybe not. :P but since modern times and a global census.
 
I was going to say maybe not after something like the plague
True, probably wasn't recorded then
 
12:42 AM
no way to know
 
Still, that's fascinating
 
I thought so.
heard it on the radio actually. :P
 
I'm pretty sure this room should be called "Javascript/Philosophy"
 
so. maybe we should look into it ;)
 
.. and nobody mentioned that it was "first time since flood" ?
 
12:43 AM
> A little box to type your opinions in
@tereško nope - I live in canada :P that would offend too many people.
 
@tereško ?
 
lets put it this way: there are a lot of risk taht an unlimited lifespan might cause, but "overpopulation" is not one of them
 
@Zirak - make the bot randomly blurt out things like "Dinosaurs coexisted with humans"
 
I imagined a biblical reference.
 
@rlemon which is was
 
12:46 AM
I love that unicorns are mentioned in the bible.
 
drunk rlemon is an attentive rlemon.
 
@phenomnomnominal citation needed
 
one more perk for unlimited life span: " .. so you are saying it will take 200 year to get to the next star .. that not so long"
 
ninja'd
 
@tereško Supposedly there really was a flood though... I mean not an exceptionally impressive one, but it probably killed a few people... haha
 
I vote for IQ test that determines lifespan
 
fact is, book was written like 500 years ago (by all men, and translated through countless languages), and was first only delivered through spoken word (stories) passed down like a big game of telephone - the ideals are sane - but the actual passages make no bloody sense (to me)
 
@JanDvorak, yes, because the bible was translated, and mistranslated, and messed with, by a bunch of old guys, trying to reconstruct stories by even older guys who died years and years ago.
 
12:50 AM
@rlemon Interestingly, I think if no one had written the shit down, it would probably make sense today.
 
lol
 
And in 2000 years, people will believe in Superman
 
Since people would have just taken their own interpretations on the craziness
 
@twiz counterargument: Scientology
 
@tereško counterargument: Tom Cruise
 
12:51 AM
!!/urban scientology
 
@JanDvorak [scientology](http://scientology.urbanup.com/638573) See [sham], [fraud], [fake], or any word adjacent to those.

Basically its a falsetto 'religion' in which eternal happiness is attained by donating all of your money to the leaders.

Founded by L. Ron Hubbard as a way to scheme money and make a fast buck off his books. One of the 'holiest' days in this religion is Hubbard's birthday.

Because most celebrites such as Tom Cruise and John Travolta are too stupid to realize it, they belong to this group.
 
@rlemon Plus I'm pretty sure most of the stuff was written down long before that. It just wasn't combined into a single book
@tereško They write shit down too. haha
 
if it was, it was again loosely translated stories that were spoken word (like campfire stories we tell today)
or an organic joke that has MANY different renditions
 
Biggest advantage of eternal life: NO MORE RELIGION
 
12:54 AM
if it makes you happier and a better person: all the power too you, please do not let my views bother you. they are mine and mine alone.
if you try to shove your ideals upon me: sorry, not happening, go f yourself. Please live and let live. I only point flaws in your logic, you are free to point flaws in mine.
 
m59
Has anyone ever stored a bunch of references to markup rather than selecting by id, tagname or jQuery, etc? Is this not a good idea?
 
@phenomnomnominal I think being religious (better put: being spiritual) is a good thing. I just don't agree with organized religions and large groups of oppressors telling other they are wrong.
(unless you use jQuery... then you are probably wrong) :P
 
m59
?
@rlemon regarding your above statement....If a bunch of people see other people continually getting hit by busses and therefore organize a group to let others know how not to get hit by the busses, but then the crowds argue that not bus is coming at all (and for the sake of argument...the bus is actually coming), are you opposed to this group? Are they oppressing the crowd by letting them know that depsite their beliefs, they will be brutally destroyed?
 
Religion is fine, if it could exist without extremism
 
m59
^ I'm pretty extreme about people not getting hit by busses. So to speak.
 
12:59 AM
@m59 these are not comparable things.
 
they are comparable
 
No one will argue against stopping people being hit by busses
 
no, they are not.
 
m59
You're right, the fate of your eternal soul is much more dire than your body being hit by a bus.
 

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