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00:00
@Esailija tbh i think timing based nav dropdowns are super trollish
@Esailija you should base it on clicks, which are explicit user action
I am not doing that just commenting how this can be done with very little js as long as you have the html and css ready
you don't really need a plugin to bind mouseenter mouseleave
:D
no one should ever make navs change based on mouse position
what do you mean by mouse position
navigation panes should not come into existence based on mouse position
that shit is trolls
do you mean hover?
00:04
one click to open the dropdown, a click off of it to close it
yes hover is pretty shit for a huge menu
or any menu tbh
no dropdown should ever appear based on a hover
or disappear because of hover going away
thought you were talking about some mouse position x y wizardry
that is what hover is...
as in mousemove
yes at a low level
00:06
mm
guise i have my first co-founder meetup tomorrow night
what do
yesh
@Raynos do many people go to your node.js meetup?
zero
because I dont bother community building
its on the todo list
you should come :D
user1385191
I don't think I'd enjoy going to some sort of meetup unless I planned it myself
user1385191
most of the time, it's something along the lines of "hey bros let's go drink some beers at the tap house and mingle!"
00:17
'If any of the attributes change the models state'... i dont understand what does model's state refering to ?
what is a state of model ?
user1385191
there was a "meetup" after a flash conference I went to and supposedly some hack was recruiting my classmates to join his crappy community college
can some one help in understanding this line from the backbone.js docs -> If any of the attributes change the models state
model's state ? this means what ?
i am calling set function on my model for setting the name but i dont see change event triggering
@Raynos if I lived on the isle of man, perhaps
i dont live on the isle of man
@Matt there is always trolls at meetups, thats where your machieavellian skills come in
user1385191
00:21
I don't network
user1385191
this is both a blessing and a curse
read about the importance of machievellian
its actually a game
user1385191
yes, it's all politics
dont wear your heart on your sleeve, etc, etc
hey guys
need some hands on help with a site. looking for a volunteer to do a little js magic. I don't think what I need done is too difficult, it's just over my head. the site is for a good cause so there's some karma to be had
user1385191
@RickD sounds like you need to put money on the table, I or Raynos could help you though, and possibly others
got no $ for this one. but it's a cool site dedicated to finding and sharing locally grown food. farms, markets, restaurants, etc.
@ThomasBlobaum tutorial. Your a hands on guy, what do you think?
can any of you get behind that?
@RickD actually sounds kind of cool. but we cant do stuff for no monies. my grandpa works in that industry www.rogerblobaum.com
00:33
@ThomasBlobaum i like that site. will look into some more
if u help me, it would make your grandpa proud :-)
i think my grandpa has already helped you enough :)
would like it to be the Yelp of Local Grown Food
its funny i was thinking about that idea earlier today
Looks like you have some traction
I have lots of time. little money. I'm a pretty good promoter.
I dont see why you are soliciting for volunteers
00:37
9000 fb fans and 1500 twitter followers
in 6 weeks :-)
because there is no revenue
How did you promote it?
it's just a good cause that I'm passionate about
lots of posts on fb, twitter mostly
emailing farms, markets, etc
if your not down, no worries. anywhere else you might suggest asking?
I dont think you should ask for free handouts anywhere
who owns the site?
your site could be so much better
@ThomasBlobaum I own the site. There is no revenue. The site is strictly for promoting the concept of local food and helping out those that grow and prepare it.
what database is behind it? did you program everything?
00:44
no, it's from edirectory.com
Design looks like something from 97
it's hosted by them
what is edirectory? yelp clones?
man.. with traction like that, i dont see why you dont get funding. do you not program at all?
@ThomasBlobaum as close to it as I could find
there are 9 organic stores listed in my city, are those ugc or did they come from edirectory?
00:47
@ThomasBlobaum I hack around. I don't want funding. Funders want revenue. This project is not about generating revenue. It's about promoting the cause.
I added all the listings
Funding lets you pay someone(like a developer) so your site doesnt suck, and that is about promoting the cause
sorry- what is ugc?
user generated content...
you cant promote a cause with no funding
your site sucks
the idea is awesome
00:49
gotta start somewhere man.
how old are you
you should find a cofounder and get some funding
if u know of anyone interested in volunteering a few hours, please have them contact me through the site.
you wont get any good help from volunteers. that is trolling
you cant expect to get a free handout
not here to argue. hundreds of thousands of people volunteer many many hours for causes they believe in.
like i said, if you're not down, no worries
i hang out with developers on the internet pretty much 24/7 and noone is going to do that
00:54
"you wont get any good help from volunteers. that is trolling" Lol. what about all those answers to questions on OS?
oh nm, they get points for that
yes precisely
Hi everybody
or a good conversation, or they get to learn by teaching
ok- i have 50 points!
@RickD how does the site get your address to the WHERE input?
00:56
randomly hacking at your site is going to require someone overqualified, since you are underqualified, and that person is not going to extract any benefit from it
Because frankly I don't really trust sites that either look with a design from 97 or sites that I have never heard of and the fact that it tracks my location already makes me want to close the site.
2 days ago, by Andy E
ATTENTION: Ask questions on the main site before asking for assistance here. Start by posting a single link to your question.
Ok, I've understood
@wabbble tracks your location? lol. paranoid much
@Innuendo it's just easier to read, easier to answer - and stays in the community for future reference.
00:58
Yes. And even tho' it get's the complete opposite of where I'm at, it still pisses me off.
@RickD i'm displeased to see someone with such a good idea trying to freeload. get a technical cofounder and actually offer them more than karma. that is what you need.
Volunteer? Only dollars accepted :)
This room is full of volunteers, but there is a line to be drawn, and this room is not about doing things for people, but rather getting help so you can do it yourself. if @RickD approached getting help differently (such as asking how to go about doing it himself, and wasnt just trolling) then he'd be well within the bounds to deserve help
Besides it's no good idea to let a volunteer experiment on a (probably) live site...
@RickD Try Kickstarter and then hire a coder
Good causes do not go unrewarded, when there is crowd funding available.
01:13
or try freelancer.com / eLance.com / oDesk.com ... the first is most recommend, besides I got a shiny profile there.
how to look for the cause of this type of errror in backbone.js b[d].apply is not a function
[Break On This Error] 1);break}}else c[a]=[]}else this._call...lent:true});this._previousAttributes=
can anyone help what could be causing this error ?
You may try to split that single line into separate lines & set breakpoints - then step into.
Anyone here have a forrst invite? :P
sorry- had to grab a call.
@ThomasBlobaum would you be interested in putting together a list of things you recommend changing on the site and send it over with a price?
@RickD: see recommendations for outsourcing instead of looking for volunteers above.
01:23
@syslogic helpful. ty.
even site/code reviews deserve to be paid, just currently undergoing in work :)
0
Q: jQuery data() in window.load and document.ready, got undefined?

PolmoninoNeed to store some data in window.load and retrieve in document.ready: <script> $(window).load(function() { // Store here $('img.storable').each(function() { $(this).data("key", "value"); console.log($(this).data("key")); // Output: value }; }; $(doc...

@RickD you need to own your site and the data for it to ever go anywhere. you need to rebuild it
@RickD that is the only way to ever profit from it, and getting revenue from it is the only way it will survive
@RickD that is why I asked about your database, how could you ever migrate all your users to your own site? is it even possibl eor do they all have to sign up again? I have no idea how edirectory works
@ThomasBlobaum all data is ours and exportable in several different formats
choosing edirectory to see if the idea was a good one was probably a good short-term decision
01:34
@ThomasBlobaum ty. still determining if it will have enough momentum. I think some changes to the search will help people find listings easier. I now realize this is the wrong place to discuss this. not looking to troll here. please contact me through SO or the site if you'd like to discuss further.
have migrated between two different versions eDirectory already - there's certain version-discrepancies..,
@RickD let me be clear i wholeheartedly +1 your idea. i just do not like to see people asking developers (especially ones that are young and naive) for free work. that is a major pet peeve of mine
@RickD discuss your site here all you like...
@jAndy The more I think about it the more the architecture you mention makes sense
@RickD i'd be happy to advise you on which parts of your site i believe need some improvement, but that also isnt going to be free. skype is tblobaum
@ThomasBlobaum understood. wrong place to post volunteers perhaps. again though, not looking to profit financially from this project. just trying to change the world a little bit. these little farmers on the site are doing very good stuff. and most of them suck at marketing themselves. and therefore, most are barely surviving. but they grow good food, the right way. I want to help them.
01:41
even a non-profit pays its workers. mostly the only real volunteers are advocates
i am confident I will find volunteers to write code. just not here, lol. I'll continue using OS for it's intended purpose.
maybe we have different definitions of volunteer. i volunteer once a month cooking food for homeless people. no pay for that. just feels right.
code quality may vary ... and code that it's maintainable is quite useless - on the long term.
0
Q: Ajax callback in chain

InnuendoI'm having a navigation bar on my site, and it's being built in some chain: // in Init method nav .hideContainer() .fetchData() .buildHTML() .eventify() .showContainer(); It's OK, and works fine for me. But in fetchData method I use local data to load ( inline json). But no...

@syslogic totally agree. hazards of the concept I guess
@RickD right you are advocating what that food place you volunteer at is doing by showing your face. that is volunteering. doing behind the scenes technical stuff is not advocation
01:44
@ThomasBlobaum agree to disagree on this TB?
@RickD conversely i doubt the man organizing the technical details of the whole thing is purely volunteering
dont ask developers to code for free
for letting volunteers code - you'll need at least one coder with some more experience...
i will defend developers tooth and nail
funny thing is, u probably could have made the changes we need with less time and effort than you did arguing with me! in any case, been fun. later.
your site needs a complete overhaul
01:50
@ThomasBlobaum yes it does. in the meantime, as f***ed up as it is, it's still helping people. for free.
you either get it or you don't. you don't. that's cool.
you know there is always wordpress....
Nah don't get me wrong, I love that people, with awesome sites or not, are helping other people. It's all about the try really, at least you gave your best, right?
you have a site with traction, that is worth something... having a developer work on it for free for you makes the site better, which equates to more traction, which equates to more value for you, how or when you liquidate that is irrelevant... what is relevant is that it is to your benefit and you are not offering to share any of that
it is also to the benefit of the users, but they dont own the site either
free, thousands if not more designs, and the same number of add-ons with to give you that personal feel.
"hey come work on facebook for free, lots of people will be happy with me and you get to help them if you do! Im doing it for free!" -Mark Zuckerberg
01:54
if you don't want to have to code it yourself that is
its just not fair
to the developer
that is all
@ThomasBlobaum and i'm just not mark zuckerberg. lol
Ahh I hate it when people go from edge to edge with examples
@RickD read my last three posts.
see, argument ended :)
no, its an example of a user system that helps a bunch of people for free and an example of the guy owning it using the fact that it helps people to troll developers into working on it for free. i.e. what you were doing earlier
01:56
@rlemon i have been
putting tb on ignore
that's better :-)
probably a good idea - if only to stop the madness
/no offense @ThomasBlobaum - one of you had to do it
however i dont think mark zuckerberg ever actually tried to get developers to work on facebook for free, and that is why i said it... your justification to a developer is absurd and would only be taken seriously by someone naive... trust me if you eventually find someone to help you, they will be very naive
Asking for charity is cool
your just not going to get it
sorry to hijaak your room, not the initial intention
Nah no worries
Oh and your also not going to get anywhere without risk
No risk no gain
01:58
WordPress is so awesome, so awesome in fact that:
get_header();
if(is_home() OR is_front_page()){
get_template_part('home');
}
get_footer();
doesn't include header nor footer.
@RickD millions of people use wordpress every day without knowledge of the programming behind it. if you are looking for a nice looking page with minimal work i suggest you start there. you will likely get frustrated and try to learn to code from it :) who knows
Either just keep going and acknowledge that your not going to get anywhere unless you get lucky
Or take a risk and put money down
it's a public service. no profit. ever.
now you are just trolling
just about helping samll farmers that really need the help
02:00
@RickD so is my blog - doesn't mean i'm going to get someone to code it for me.
small^
may I ask what the blog is?
fact is, that money is the key to everything.
@RickD ...
not-for-profit also generate revenue
@wabbble I used to think that too. I don't anymore.
They just dont generate profit
@RickD Go generate money elsewhere
02:02
@RickD tell me one thing that you don't get with money
sup Loktar :)
hey
@wabbble peace of mind
Seriously you want donation and set up a charity fund
not piece of ass
02:03
@RickD a ton of ways to get peace of mind, with money you get access to pretty much all of them.
lol
@RickD \it's besides the point - tb was trying to tell you that your approach is wrong. if you have a good cause and you subtly ask for assistance (on your webpage - preferably the bottom) then sure - someone may eventually help. coming to a community of professionals and asking for support will likely result in some negativity
just saying
@RickD any further discussion of the topic is of zero value
done
@rlemon i got it. like 30 mins ago. got it. got it. got it.
now it's just bantering
02:05
sorry i was watching tv. flipping back and fourth and watching the banter
i just don't want you to avoid the community because we have been less than helpful in this regard
i see you are a fairly new member
@LeviMorrison Buggy as hell? Correct
@Raynos Lol, what browser? What OS?
@LeviMorrison doesn't work for me Chromium 15
02:06
@LeviMorrison chrome 15, OS really does not matter
@rlemon no worries. I like SO a lot.
@Raynos I'm on Chrome 15 . . .
@Raynos What's so buggy?
win7
Ubuntu
11.10
@LeviMorrison only sale works
02:08
@LeviMorrison dude i get no drop down at all
Only Products and Sale have dropdowns.
no drop down here either
ohh wait - i get sale... but only once. then it stops working
@RickD Why not just add a donation-form to your front-page and hire a coder once you can afford? You're promoting farmer's products - so there is money behind, even.
wait! its just crazy slow
02:09
products if i click like 5 times finally appears
you cant click
it resets its timer or something idk
you just have to hover and wait a second..
there needs to be an indicator for sure
Maybe you guys don't understand it.
You can't move your mouse
for .5 secs
@rlemon Hey, yell at Jakob Nielsen.
that is not a good design
@LeviMorrison idk man ive been using the internet for a few years
I think I can handle a dropdown..
you need at least a down arrow indicator or something
@syslogic interesting idea. thought about it. ruled it out for now bacause even though we are needy. I don't want to look needy...
02:10
plus people dont really like waiting for a drop down in my experience.. they expect it to drop down, otherwise they perceive your app as laggy or slow... or annoying
@rlemon Yell at Jakob Nielsen if you dont' like the design, supposedly it's well tested.
@RickD then at the bottom don't ask for donations ... say 'we are hiring'
@LeviMorrison for usability purposes please use :hover on CSS
when they click it you tell them it is for free, doing mediocre coding on their spare time
It's not about looking needy - just consult your users and crowd-fund it by them. farmers = $$$.
02:11
Indicate that something will happen on hover when I hover over it by changing style
Also make clicks work :\
@Raynos to piggy back on that indicate that something WILL happen without me having to hover over it so I know to hover over it..
@Raynos If you read the article, usability tests show that a.5 second wait is preferred for dropdowns.
Also had a job on similar site once: dmproduce.com.au - just as an example.
@LeviMorrison yes no objection to that, but style the damn thing
@RickD but syslogic has a point. i work here deal with farmers every day, they are very adopting to technology
02:12
so the text "sale" gets styled when I immediatly hover it
eh not indicating with a down arrow or something visual is bad design
if I see a style change on hover i know I should wait for the hover
even google uses the down arror.
also make click work :\
yeah googles is click based, not hover.
02:13
all dropdowns should be click based
same with facebook..
I agree @ThomasBlobaum
a div appearing anywhere on a website, or disappearing, based on hover/mousenter/mouseout is trolls
2
'Affordance'
@rlemon @Raynos try it again.
have a star :P
02:14
why is there such a delay on the dropdown.
still needs an indicator to let you know its a dropdown.
make it like .1 seconds
lol @Esailija
@rlemon No, that is not the goal. I dont' like my dropdowns that way either. That isn't the goal. The goal is to make it match Jakob Nielsens requirements.
do not put a delay on the dropdown, or a fade, or anything
just make it like facebook's in the top right corner, srsly
02:15
I swear... people dont use popular websites or something...
@ThomasBlobaum You are missing the whole point.
model your stuff after what people are used to..
not some random new method
@LeviMorrison i think you are missing our point.. which is that design paradigm is wrong.
Some random new method is the next what people are used to.
it does not make sense and it will frustrate users.
02:16
I mean look at my avatar, I mean business. Dont mess with me. Im a hardcore blinker.
@rlemon Listen, all techies everywhere hate the delay on the dropdown. I FRIGGEN UNDERSTAND THAT. But research shows that normal, stupid users like the wait. Period.
@LeviMorrison what research is this?
some guy with a "popular" blogger site?
@LeviMorrison you are wrong. no one likes to wait for anything. ever.
02:17
because Facebook and google dont have implementations like that...
@Loktar His name is Jakob Nielsen, a usability expert.
@LeviMorrison because Google, and Facebook - arguably the two most visited websites are wrong
People need affordance and feedback. How that is achieved doesn't really matter.
bah
night all.
@rlemon Honestly, I don't see any hovers that happen automatically on Google . . .
02:18
The wait is there to prevent flicker, not for usability. That said the hover menus are stupid and that site lost all credibility
@rlemon my boy Govind Tiwari agrees.
see ya
@LeviMorrison they dont happen automatically thats the point, they are click based
same on facebook
why is it so hard to understand >_>
@ThomasBlobaum It isn't.
and they have indicators saying HEY THERE I AM A DROPDOWN!!
@Loktar Yes, I know. Haven't got indicators up yet. Workign on the hard JS part.
02:20
and then Im like oh hey there dropdown, what are you hiding in your bag otricks!
@loktar yep, and they change when you move the mouse over them
yes but they do not create divs when you mouseover
they just modify style
well, the pointer moves there, the mouse stays on my desk (for the pedants)
@thomas yep
they offer affordance, but don't preempt your actions
you know, totally off topic sorry, i haven't actually used a mouse for years
@LeviMorrison HEY GUIS I LINKED SOME GUY ON THE INTERNET. THIS MUST BE RITE, AM I RITE?
There's nothing like HCI to enthuse a crowd ...
02:29
@Raynos Sigh . . . he's a usability expert. You don't have to believe me. Could the shouts of outrage stop now? Sheesh.
Y U NO JOIN RAGE FEST
That Nielsen article was just preliminary research.
It looks to me that the big win was the size of the menus, not the hovering.
@adscriven True, but when the menus are big, his tests showed that users preferred a delay
Also
I'm not using this on my site. I was wondering if anyone had built his menu. I'd never seen it done.
I built it, that was the goal.
@levi Compared to no delay? Or compared to a click?
@adscriven To no delay. I never brought up the click vs hover argument, that was all them.
See:
3
Q: Should my menus drop down on hover + on click or just on click?

Shawn D.I have a web application that currently has menus that drop down 'on hover'. This is obviously an issue on tablets, etc. where there is no hover equivalent. So, I need to add an 'on click' capability to have the menus drop down, but I'm not sure if I should also leave in the on hover ability, o...

Specifically I like:
7
A: Should my menus drop down on hover + on click or just on click?

UXesseI have conducted a study recently to ascertain whether a click menu or hover menu is more suitable for one of our larger financial client sites... these are my findings. I hope they are of some use or help to you: In summary: In general, hover menus are indeed expected behaviour on most sites,...

02:35
@levi In Microsoft Word, do menus appear on hover?
@adscriven Where are you even going with that? I'm not arguing for hover or click. I just was attempting to build something to specs.
@LeviMorrison Ah! that guys is comparing website with a desktop application.
Huge mistake right there !
@levi Where I'm going, is that if menus appear on click in MSWord, then that is the expected behaviour in the entire universe. God hath spoken.
@adscriven lol
:-)
But I'm not kidding!
If you think about what happens in the physical world, not a great deal happens on hover.
Maybe scanning items at the supermarket.
Or maybe getting caught shoplifting.
02:39
hover hand
But most stuff happens on click.
@Esailija you shouldnt joke, hover hand is a serious problem plaguing thousands of men worldwide.
@adscriven Agree, but is that convenient ? Haven't you ever wished if everything worked with hover ?
@omeid Do you want to drive a car by hover? What happens if you sneeze?
02:41
@OmeidHerat just read the answer in the UX thread: Many designers seem to believe that when their menus open on hover, they’re faster and easier for most users to use. It certainly might seem this way at first, but when you look deeper you’ll notice that the opposite is true. Hover menus are actually slower and harder for most users to use.
@adscriven if your design doesn't consider safeguards. you shouldn't even touch designing ;)
@Esailija That is spot on. but how you implement is things are really important. Heard of Dual access points ? Hover/Click ?
@omeid And clicks are pretty good safeguards in my experience :-)
@adscriven That is like saying, walking is safer then designing a car without breaks. indeed but that is not ideal.
@Esailija XUNIT sec wait or click.
@omeid Well, I'd say that clicks are simply more specific actions than hover. Reasoning about human behaviour is very difficult.
@omeid So you're saying that I can hover faster than I can click? But hovering requires a 0.5s delay according to Nielsen. Clicks require no delay. Clicks are the car and hovering is the walking.
Clicking gives confirmation. If you hover then your code has to try to guess what you meant to do.
@adscriven No there is way more in there, the X sec is no the main reason.
more important is accessibility issue.
02:48
I'm not saying it can't be done, just that clicking is a much simpler solution to the problem. And since feedback is instant and unequivocal, it is easier to meet users' expectations.
some people just can't use a mouse or some just can touch your website !
Just as an aside, designing user interfaces that satisfy users is the hardest thing I've ever had to program.
@adscriven I am with Click, but I rather be able to open things with hover. cause I care about my hand. people who use computer all day long and every day is important for me! and at the same time Accessibility is a big deal if my target is Public.
that is why I am saying Click/Hover activation both!
either click or x sec wait.
@omeid I know what you're saying, but as soon as you introduce hovering as a means of control, you increase unpredictability.
And oh also, you got the touch screens that just can't hover.
02:52
@omeid Well you can get round touch screens by saying that a touch is a hover and a long touch is a click.
@adscriven That is deadly true, Stared.
@adscriven Indeed, but that again brings lots of compatibility issues, unless I am designing something specific to a Platform.
@omeid Well, avoiding hover altogether (other than to display affordance) increases interoperability with touch screen devices.
Apologies to anyone who thinks that we've gone offtopic in this room btw. JS is mostly used for UX though.
This is the kind of UX nightmare that I'm talking about.
https://github.com/douglascrockford/JSLint/issues/90

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