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6:11 PM
159
Q: 1, 2, 3...test. Let’s increase the number of reviews & close votes for science!

bluefeetFor many, many years users have asked and asked and asked for changes to the number of close votes and the number of reviews per day. There's been a little bit of skepticism as to the efficacy of such changes, but so far that's been mostly speculative. So... Let's test it! Current Problem: We'v...

 
"FOR SCIENCE!" the missing words in this post :(
 
@Braiam It's in the title
 
Max close votes used to be 50, with max of 40 in queue right? So no extras during this test period.
 
@AlexanderO'Mara Maximum close votes = 60 to correspond to the new max reviews per day
 
@AlexanderO'Mara It was 50, it's now 60
 
@Braiam That "match case" button looks suspiciously active.
 
Awww, I want to help test... =( Ah well, I'll be with the reviewers in spirit! (Unless I magically get enough rep in the next few days.) On a more serious note, bravo for finally actually testing this request to see if it really will or won't help. =)
 
"a little bit of skepticism" yeah, a little bit...
 
If you are not a regular reviewer in the close vote queue but want some company on your quest, feel free to drop in the SOCVR and say hi.
 
During weekends the close vote queue is shorter (10-20%). Does it mean people are have more free time to vote? If yes, that also means that during the week people have less time and it might be that the number of votes is not the limiting factor. Also I guess that we may see an initial peak of activity at the beginning of the period. It would probably be a one time effect and should not be included in any average estimation. Now I will go on and pretend I didn't read it.
 
6:11 PM
@Trilarion It might also mean that there are fewer people voting/flagging to close on the weekends. They've probably stepped away from their computers to enjoy some fresh air, but that's just a guess.
 
@bluefeet You're right. It should be possible to find out by looking at the number of questions added and removed from the queue. If the additions take a hit, it's people enjoying fesh air, if the removals increase, it's people enjoying a happy little close vote session.
 
@Trilarion YMMV, but I'm only on SO when at work during the week. I completely ignore all of you when Friday evening hits.
 
for those interested, there was somewhat similar experiment at Programmers. It failed
I just tested - just as promised I've got 10 more reviews than usual but limit of close votes seems to be the same as before. Is this intended?
 
60 for me, @gnat... Screenshot?
 
@Shog9 oh, more than 10 sorry. I did 19 (18 Close and usual Leave Open at audit) and after that bumped into CV limit. Looks like mine was false alert - math seems about right - 60 reviews to 60 votes. I didn't figure that new limits leave zero headroom for voting outside of queue - and I apparently did. Just re-checked, I cast 60 CVs today
 
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@gnat Regarding the experiment at Programmers. It seems they declared it as failed because the close rate shifted significantly. Maybe here after the experiment this rate should also be checked.
 
It start showing the effect from first day. Low Quality post which was more than 800 a day before are now nearer to 350.
 
@bluefeet hrrrrmmmm... I do not have any screenshot to prove anything, but I'm positive that long before this change, I had 60 close votes (not 50) and 40 reviews per day. Not sure where that 50 close votes comes from. does flag weight have any effect on this?
 
Ian
Hei, it has taken effect... :)
 
Are you going to update the graph while the test progresses?
 
@MarkRotteveel I'll report back in 30 days.
 
6:11 PM
Let's just hope that the automatic feeding the VLQ is not smart enough to increase its activity upon seen that the queue is almost empty. :)
 
The SE and H&I queue also have 30 slots. For the H&I queue, this is just a robot magnet - anyone who is serious about H&I reviews will be hard pressed to even do 20 reviews a day.
 
@S.L.Barth The increased review count impacted every queue but the other queues don't generate as much traffic so we're not focusing on the day to day average there.
 
As of now there is 2255 close vote cast. which means that (if every reviewer complete his 60 cast), there is 37 reviewer. maybe the problem is not the limit but the number of reviewer?
 
@Thomas The limit can be changed, the number of reviewers is a bit harder to change (without advanced cloning technology or even paying people for the work). On the other hand I don't believe there are only 37 close vote reviewers. I cannot imagine StackOverflow can server 40 million people a month with only 40 (or less than a hundred) active volunteers doing the moderation work.
 
@Trilarion about two years ago Shog provided statistics on CV reviewers activity, you can find it here "...About half of ~500 users who have gotten golden badge at 1000 reviews indicated an interest to continue using queue even without badges."
 
6:11 PM
@gnat Wow, that's really not a lot of people actively close voting more than say a few (20) times. I had always imagined that thousands of people do the moderation for a site of this size with that many visitors / askers. Active close voters are kind of really rare.
 
@Trilarion if you think of it, 1,000 active reviewers could in theory close 8K questions a day (12K with new limits) - basically all the questions SO gets. SE management probably tries to somehow keep number of active reviewers small because they are afraid to unleash such a great power
 
@gnat But then you cannot take a single day off. What if someone of the 1,000 active reviewers gets ill? :) Actually, I would like to know how many of those who can close vote and are active asking or answering do also close vote. This would be an interesting quantity when trying to increase the number of active close voters. Maybe I will try a SEDE query for it. (And a histogram of how often they close vote if they close vote would be nice too.)
 
@Trilarion you can actually. If this happens it's just more questions leave the queue and votes on them age away (and can be recast again few weeks later). Eventually SE team managed to make it less painful that it was 2-3 years ago
 
I feel a tad guilty being the author of the first linked post here yet being well aware that I have fallen prey to apathy and no longer spend my close votes much at all. That said, it is nice to see this change being tried out after all this time. Thanks, @bluefeet.
 
@AlexisKing That's sad. Reminds me of Bluet, who is no longer the network to see this change. As Shog wrote - "only one person on Stack Overflow has used 100% of their close votes every. single. day". Times change so fast.
 
6:11 PM
Won't a higher cap for other ques cause more close and VLQ votes to be cast?
 
Seems to be working right now: i.imgur.com/RME4H3S.png
 
@Magisch Could just be the Hawthorne effect. I've been doing all my LQP reviews lately, but knowing about this experiment motivated me to slog through all my close reviews when I'd otherwise stop at 10 or so.
 
after experiment completes please take a closer look at amount and rate of audit failures and compare it to prior one. There is a risk that increase in load may negatively impact reviewers ability to judge (keeping fingers crossed for this to be not the case)
 
@bluefeet just to be sure: you're going to account for the weekly fluctuation of votes, and assess the impact of the experiment based on some fitted descriptor (like a mean over a week or something), right? Since there's a 2k fluctuation in the size of the queue...
 
hey @bluefeet can you please stop this experiment sooner, or maybe assign someone from the team to watch on Programmers front page? Askers banned or scared off by increased close voting at SO now seem to be spamming Programmers with their senseless debugging questions. This is getting really troublesome. (Alternatively, I can start voting Leave Open on stuff I currently close in SO queue, to keep that garbage from polluting other SE sites)
 
6:11 PM
I've got no plans to shorten the experience @gnat. Do you have some examples of these users who have been scared off by the increase in close voting?
 
few examples dumped in last hour: this, this, this, this (4 blatantly off-toipic questions in an hour at site that gets 50-60 a day is quite a bit)
 
Interesting theory, but... None of those users has any recent, closed questions on Stack Overflow @gnat. Nor does anyone sharing an IP with them.
 
@Shog9 how come that this user having apparently active account at SO for 3 years suddenly decides to register at Programmers and dump the blatant debugging stuff in there? if this doesn't mean they are scared off of SO then I don't know what this could mean
...note that one doesn't even need to register at SO to learn about funny theory that became popular at Math.SE after SO became more demanding to question quality, 'my friends told me that "stack exchange" is undergraduate or master level, and "stack overflow" is PhD or research level. I think my question is very basic, so I asked here'. Ongoing experiment will of course make this theory even more popular than before.
 
Are you asking me to speculate, @gnat, or actually try to find out. Because I probably can't share what I find if I go through logs or whatever. If you're just inviting speculation... Then I'll note it's a public site, easily found via Google, with 5+ years worth of links scattered around SO, Meta, and The Greater Internet; folks can easily end up there if they start poking around.
 
wonder how it happened that amount of these folks so dramatically increased @Shog9 after burning the SO close queue and after rolling out se-quality-project features (hope you won't feed me this time with old-fashioned legends about only smaller sites being scared by barbarians - the simple fact that SO buries 20% questions in triage clearly indicates that the same barbarians scare Stack Overflow just as much)
 
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Side note: if low-quality users really are being driven away from SO by this, then the close votes seem to be working as a means to sustain the quality of SO. This doesn't help the smaller sites at all (and I sympathize with whomever receives our former crap), but it's still something.
 
It's fun to speculate on this stuff, @gnat, but quite honestly... There's rarely anything actionable with the results, so unless you just wanna hang out in The Tavern & speculate over drinks, I'm not gonna bother; might as well theorize that the level of spam is increasing on Quora because of the rise of SmokeDetector here; can't prove it, and can't do anything about it if we could. Oded's working on beefing up network-wide rate-limits, which won't do anything for this specifically but should help with the general "crap flood" problem.
 
I see you're trying to invent a new legend, good. Though "speculation" is unlikely to work @Shog9 because we have stats. 10% questions at Programmers are asked (and get further closed and deleted) by users blocked at Stack Overflow. And this doesn't even count those who are warned or scared or deleted their SO account. (As for network wide rate limits, it won't help with these folks because system won't qualify them as spammers)
 
@gnat Allowing crap questions on SO is not a solution either. The real problem is how to teach people to ask if not good, then at least tolerable questions here, or anywhere. Huge warning sign before they post their first question and maybe five step verification asking them to reread their question and make sure they really, really want to post that question should be implemented.
 
@DalijaPrasnikar SE management invests awful lot of efforts into protecting SO from these (question blocks and limits, burying 20% troublesome questions in triage etc etc). But they do nothing when askers of these questions try their luck at other SE sites. Nothing at all
 
@gnat I wouldn't know about that. But the way I see it problem with asking any question on any SE site is just too easy for first posters. I know we have First Posts queue, but that is dealing with the problem after the fact. IMO what has to be done is that more should be done to prevent bad questions being asked in the first place. There is tons of questions where OP didn't read tour, even less help center and asks totally off topic question and only after he learns that there are some rules he should follow.
 
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@DalijaPrasnikar prior to SE introducing stronger means of handling low quality questions at Stack Overflow this was not much of a problem at smaller sites - there were just not many askers and site communities could handle these "on front page" so to speak. Now that scared cockroaches started running away from SO trying to push their garbage anywhere else (that is, at other SE sites), amount of troublesome questions over there increased too much for local communities to handle. And SE management does exactly nothing about that
 
@gnat I see what you mean. Having some quality assurance in place that would prevent/lower the amount of bad questions would be universal. If you get to ask off-topic question on Programmers, you would also be warned there that asking bad questions has some repercussions.
 
@gnat "10% questions at Programmers are asked (and get further closed and deleted) by users blocked at Stack Overflow." Are you telling me that a site with 180K users can't handle closing 3 questions a day? (stats from here).
 
@NewGuy who told you that 10% is 3 questions, it's 5 (recently probably 6). And the issue is not that these don't get closed (they do) but that they pollute site front page and obscure worthy questions. I am not going to dive into details because this is the same issue as at Stack Overflow and it has brilliant explanation right here, at SO meta: Off topic questions have to be cleared out of the way, but NOT via closure
 
@gnat, that stat on the page I linked that says "28 questions/day" and some rounding gave me 3 questions per day.
 
@NewGuy stats over there are blatant lie because they ignore deleted questions. Last time we had reliable stats from SE employee who had access to all questions (in Aug 2015) Programmers were getting 46 q/day average. My current estimate based on what I observe daily is it's now closer to 50-60 (meaning in particular that if you subtract these 28 questions that stay and get to these fake "official" stats, site gets 20-30 delete-worthy questions a day)
 
6:11 PM
If y'all that to continue discussing the merits of @gnat's theory, feel free to take it to chat or even to Programmers Meta to discuss site quality.
 
@bluefeet weren't you interested to learn results of experiment? This is a great opportunity isn't it: you have base stats on how it was before and you can compare them to current stats to find out the difference if there is any. That is unless you want to ignore impact of experiment on other SE sites (in which case you'd better edit the announcement to make that clear for readers)
 
@gnat Again you're asking us to speculate on whether this test is impacting Programmers. From what we've seen (in the examples you provided) none of those users were post banned on SO when they posted on Programmers. The test is running for another week, at that time, I'll look at the impact of this on SO.
 
for the sake of precision stats provided by Shog back then are based on hard facts, there is nothing speculative in these. Though your intent to focus solely on Stack Overflow is clear now, thanks for explaining
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A: How many questions do we get from users recently blocked at SO, how many of these are closed / deleted?

Shog9I'm working on something related to this right now, so it's worthwhile to pull the data. More on that in a bit, but first... 1380 questions asked here in the last 30 days, from 1219 distinct accounts, of which 1100 have/had accounts on Stack Overflow 184 of whom hit some kind of block on Stack...

@bluefeet you seem to believe that data provided above ^^^ is speculation, why? Do you see what @Shog9 could do better there?
 

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