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1:07 AM
@Mysticial since im working on my next build again
if i want single color lighting in my rig, do i need a controller?
or is there another (less convenient) way of setting stuff up once? (I'm going for either white or purple lighting)
 
 
3 hours later…
4:04 AM
Microsoft has ended support for Windows 7. That means it will no longer provide updates or security patches for the 11-year-old operating system, and the hundreds of millions of PCs still using it are vulnerable to attack.

One-third of PCs around the world run Windows 7.
Proudly to be the bottom 1/3.
 
4:32 AM
To be at rock bottom. Maybe this is not too bad.
 
5:11 AM
Sounds like giving long support to software has its drawback. Apparently if people aren't forced to upgrade they won't.
 
Pretty sure Window 7 was already vulnerable before MS has withdrawn its support.
Also forcing people do redundant things is one way to make this world a low efficiency place.
Sometimes, it's not you who is a low efficiency person, it's your environment!
 
5:26 AM
self upgrade exist for that reason
I mean, they could have made self upgrade from windows 7 to windows 10
 
5:45 AM
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix At one time they had a highly effective way of preventing this: make the upgrades real upgrades so people actually wanted them. Nowadays, most of their "upgrades" are lateral moves at best, and for a whole lot of people are really downgrades. I've tried Windows 10 back when it was new. I still use it at work because I have no choice. But where I can, I prefer to use Windows 7 because it's simply a better system.
Now, that's not to say there's no advantage to Windows 10 at all. That's clearly not the case--it does have some improvements in the kernel, for one obvious example. But unless you're using a CPU that had scheduling problems under Windows 7, and also need the last ounce of performance available, the shortcomings in the Windows 10 shell will cost you hundreds of times more than the improvements in the kernel gain you.
 
 
3 hours later…
9:08 AM
one of the downgrades that win10 has for me is the alt-tab listing not being grid aligned and the icons being rather small, which makes it really hard to scan for the one window I need once I have a few open
 
9:56 AM
increase the DPI
@JerryCoffin Also lacks AVX instructions. I can't name one thing Windows 7 is better at, with the exception of having more favorable licensing.
Recent file photograph of Jerry
 
Less advertising.
Personally I prefer an OS that's as concise as possible.
Why the heck would no one talk about OS decluttering?
 
because it's a thankless job and xkcd.com/1172
 
Getting a new machine with OS is like buying a home with pre-packed furniture, some of them I will never use!
 
nwp
10:12 AM
Sigh. People use different features. People get angry when the feature they need doesn't work, so you ship all the features. Most people don't need most features, but that's fine, the features that are unused have negligible cost. No, nobody will make the OS that has exactly the features you use and want because that OS would be useless for everyone else.
 
 
2 hours later…
12:01 PM
Also epoll is fundamentally broken
 
user6461957
I am currently learning about alternative I/O models (including epoll)...
 
I hear good things about window's IOCompletionQueues
though I believe most IO apis are lacking in key ways
 
how cout is actually printing a variable to screen does it call to any function or something like that
 
user6461957
AFAIK, it uses syscalls for that provided by an operating system. On Linux it is write().
 
Window's approach is scalable, epoll due to its synchronousn nature killa Linux performance
 
user6461957
12:12 PM
A programming language like C or C++ provide abstractions to common operating system functions such as writing to a screen (on Linux write) or a file (on Linux it is still write).
@AbhiSarkar Is that what you wanted to know?
 
I dislike linux' approach where you can't setup a read buffer and have the kernel fill it concurrently, it needs to be copied in during the read() call.
 
yes
 
user6461957
If you want to learn more about operating systems, there is a good resource that is also free and is used by many educational institutions: pages.cs.wisc.edu/~remzi/OSTEP
 
does compiler take value after that it do syscall
for printing
 
Yeah. The linux world has so many deep copies and openings for user land programs to hog the system im suprised anything even runs.
 
user6461957
12:18 PM
printf() or cout is basically utilizing the write() syscall provided by Linux (a basic operating system function) under the hood. On Windows the syscall is named differently but it still does the same thing, i.e., printing to the console or any other location.
 
@d03 thank you
 
if you want to get technical the syscall is for writing to a file handle. But the file handle used for printing to console is actually (OOP style) a handle to a pipe that forwards the data to another program that takes in the text and converts it to pixels on screen using a text renderer.
 
for example if cin>>a; where a is int variable then how it call syscall
 
And then we start talking about machine code.
 
user6461957
@ratchetfreak I am unable to search the GCC repo (mirror) with the printf implementation: https://github.com/gcc-mirror/gcc

Do you know how to find it or where do you need to look for?
 
12:28 PM
for input the syscall is read
 
@ratchetfreak after overlaoding syscall is working
 
@d03 the compiler repo is not necessarily going to contain the full runtime library, those tend to be maintained in a different repo
 
@d03 glibc is where you probably find that
or musl or any other C standard library implementation
 
user6461957
I am trying to find the write syscall so that I can show Abhi Sarkar that it is indeed implemented like that.
 
user6461957
12:37 PM
https://github.com/bminor/glibc/blob/master/stdio-common/printf.c

Okay, I found a `vfprintf_internal` here. Isn't there another search option where you can search for specific keywords within files? I think `vfprintf_internal` will lead me to the right place (the `write` syscall).
 
user6461957
Sorry I cannot find it Abhi... I probably need to clone that repo and then search for a write syscall there.
 
@d03 actually i want to know how cout works with syscall write
 
user6461957
If I would've found that specific line with the write, I think you would gain a little insight on how all of this works in principle.
 
@d03 Yeah
 
user6461957
12:58 PM
I think I found something via grep:

```
./nptl/tst-cancel9.c:63: /* fprintf() uses write() which is a cancallation point. */
./nptl/cancellation.c:26: more specialized for the use in the cancelable functions like write().
./nptl/cancellation.c:29: are called by wrappers around AS-safe functions like write().*/
```
 
the C++ iostreams are a mess, they are objects with overloaded operators that then forward the resulting string to the underlying streambufwhich can be a filebuf which will have overridden member functions that end up writing to file
 
@d03 what is this
 
with the same caveat as above, the standard output is represented in the program as a file handle and the kernel sees it as a pipe to forward tot he program that actually does the showing
 
user6461957
I am searching the repo that I cloned github.com/bminor/glibc for write( - the syscall I was mentioning.
 
user6461957
@ratchetfreak yep, it is so convoluted, I wonder how they maintain this project this gigantic.
 
user6461957
1:08 PM
I gave up searching for it, but I am pretty sure a write() is used somewhere to implement those library functions printf or cout for Linux.
 
for glibc it's printf->__vfprintf_internal->_IO_sputn->_IO_XSPUTN->JUMP(__xsputn)->__write->_IO_new_file_write->write

http://osteras.info/personal/2013/10/11/hello-world-analysis.html
 
user6461957
Wow, so many struct redirections. Thank you, @PeterT
 
that wasn't supposed to be the C "->" operator but just a generic "calls function/macro" diagram
 
user6461957
Ah, my bad.
 
@PeterT if im not wrong does printf call to write
 
1:21 PM
in glibc it does
 
1:55 PM
ponders moving all of this
 
nwp
Doesn't matter. The lounge has died moved on.
Has anyone noticed a decline in passive reputation gains? Might just be Christmas, but it could also be consequences of SO trying really hard to kill its community.
 
dunno
I rarely got any anyway
 
user6461957
>but it could also be consequences of SO trying really hard to kill its community.

Hopefully not. Sites like HN and SO have good value and it would be a shame if they are not the same anymore.

I find it especially less convoluted and distracting than sites like reddit/Twitter. = better for the brain
 
@Mikhail If you honestly can't name anything Windows 7 is better at, then you clearly don't know enough about the situation to have a meaningful opinion at all.
 
@nwp The easiest way to kill this community is to turn off all the chats, apparently that's not done, so I would say 'no'.
 
2:05 PM
@JerryCoffin the UI is personal taste, but technically and security wise win 7 is significantly inferior even to win 8
 
nwp
Maybe they see chat as too irrelevant to bother to kill.
 
This room should have been dead for years x)
To think that it eventually faded away instead is impressive
 
user6461957
No :(
I really like it here.
 
nwp
Should have seen it before it was dead.
 
I know a multi-player game that has been dying for almost 15 years, yet it's still sort of alive.
 
2:07 PM
Yeah, it's merely a ghost of what it used to be
 
@Morwenn and yet somehow they failed to kill it
 
@Mgetz It's not purely personal taste. Starting with 8, they made a studied attempt at moving it to being a consumer OS. That is, one that's oriented strictly toward consuming content, not producing it. Let met give just one trivial example: navigate to you Documents folder in Windows 7, then in Windows 10. IF you're actually producing things, this is an important thing--and Windows 10 basically does it's best to hide it, because it assumes you only consume content, not produce it.
 
user6461957
Sounds like I missed out a lot on here.
 
I want a garden with bamboo like this
 
4 mins ago, by Mgetz
@JerryCoffin the UI is personal taste, but technically and security wise win 7 is significantly inferior even to win 8
 
nwp
2:09 PM
I thought that's the greener grass on the other side.
 
@d03 Almost 10 years of history :p
 
it's absolutely personal taste and you don't like it
but trying to say that your personal taste somehow overrides other factors only works for you
 
user6461957
@Morwenn Beautiful garden.
 
@Mgetz Sorry, but no. Making a common action take more work is not simply personal taste. You can measure the amount of work involved in doing things, and get objective measurements of efficiency. That's not taste, it's objective data.
 
Yeah, too bad it's difficult to handle because it's rather invasive
What changed in Windows 10?
 
2:11 PM
@JerryCoffin I'm also not getting where you're getting that at all, I open explorer and it's one click to documents
it's a default pin
 
@Mgetz You just said it yourself. "I open explorer and then", whereas in 7, I don't open explorer, and it's already one click away.
 
@JerryCoffin so you're complaining about housekeeping... right
ok w/e
someone moved your chair to vacuum and you're annoyed
 
vs
Like I would need all those extra stuff?
 
It's literally right there
 
What even changed with documents I don't get it
 
2:16 PM
on the left side of the start menu... assuming you even use that
 
Actually since 8 you've got a right click on the right menu that will do most of what you want
 
I still have the same workflow for it too Win+E then a click on documents
 
And it's a godsent feature
 
I don't think I've ever used the start menu to get to docuements
 
ditto
I honestly just hit windows and start typing what I need
 
2:17 PM
I've always had a shortcut in the fast launch bar
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but the more stuff runs in the background, the slower it gets.
 
@Mgetz And by the time you've hit the second key, you've already done more work than Windows 7 required. It's quite apparent that the situation is that you simply never learned the features of Windows 7 well enough to understand what the differences are.
 
I mean Windows 10 is a measurably worse experience on non-SSD drives out of the box for sure
 
@JerryCoffin no I think you're nitpicking over extremely minor things when there are much bigger icebergs to dodge
@PeterT not in my experience? It boots significantly faster on my spinning rust machines?
 
@Mgetz You can think that, but you're wrong. I've timed it. It really does add up--figure roughly half an hour a day lost to these minor annoyances.
 
2:20 PM
tell us the secret my documents incantation that saved you eons of man-hours
 
Ok I'm done here, we're arguing and there is no point in continuing an argument because neither side will listen
 
@Mgetz That sounds a lot to me like you realize you're wrong but refuse to admit it. But hey, if you're happy with what you have, so be it.
 
@JerryCoffin no, and you're really not being acceptable right now
please calm down
 
someone piss in your cereal today?
 
I'm stepping away because arguments don't go anywhere useful
and I stand by what I said
so I don't see a point in going in endless circles
 
2:23 PM
@PeterT You need to understand, when programmers/software developers talking about their favourite OS ...
 
I long since learned to try to be egoless when it comes to code and OS decisions
there are technical reasons and practical reasons for everything
someone preferring win7 doesn't affect me at all
it doesn't make my code less secure, it doesn't hurt my workflow
 
@Mgetz Well, it seems to me like you're still trying to maintain the notion that it's purely a matter of taste, in which everybody's opinion is equally valid. I disagree on that fundamental point. Most of my use of a computer is with the intent of getting work done, and I've timed things pretty carefully with a number of people. Though the difference isn't huge, it's consistent--people using Windows 7 can get more work done more quickly.
 
@JerryCoffin In your opinion and for you. Trying to extrapolate that to all of creation is a leap of ego I'm not willing to make. Please calm down
 
@Mgetz The only thing I'm not calm about is your constant badgering to "calm down" when people state facts that you happen to prefer to hide from. The fact that you don't want to hear the facts doesn't mean that those who state them aren't perfectly calm.
 
@JerryCoffin sigh, they aren't facts. They are opinions you are making personal attacks
 
2:28 PM
@Mgetz What part of "the stopwatch showed N seconds under this OS and N+3 seconds under that OS" sounds like an opinion to you?
 
all of it because there are other ways to do things that use less time
like all benchmarks it's subjective
 
How can anybody possibly even delude themselves into believing for a second that the amount of time shown on a stopwatch could be an opinion?
 
it tells a singular story that does not extrapolate
 
Only my opinion matters and Windows 10 is better
Getting work done is so old-fashioned when you can get paid the same to do less
 
@Mgetz except it's not a single story. As I already pointed out, I timed this with a number of people. And although I didn't point it out previously, most of them were people who though the company we were working for should switch entirely to Windows 10, and were doing their level best to prove they'd be more efficient by doing so. And even they ended up getting more work done in less time under Windows 7 than 10.
 
2:31 PM
For a given workflow and path potentially
that cannot be generalized
 
I'm generally not efficient enough at work for the OS to make a big difference anyway x)
Except that one time where an applicate didn't work on Win10 and we had to install some Win7 to get it to work
 
@Mgetz Again, no. Some were programmers going programming things. One was a UX designer doing....whatever they do. A couple more were doing admin kinds of jobs. It was about 20 people altogether, and if memory serves no more than 3 were doing essentially the same jobs.
 
I'm way more annoyed by the desktop environment of my colleague where Ctrl+Shift+Right/Left moves the window to the right/left side of the screen instead of fucking selecting a word
 
well at least we didn't start a holy war over tabs v. spaces...
 
It's actually an unholy war x)
 
2:38 PM
I thought that was just vi vs. emacs?
 
Now I'm very good at picking bad tools and not updating them because I'm lazy
 
I'm very good at having my time wasted in meetings
 
Haha
 
tools are the least of both mine and most of my clients immediate concerns if we're looking purely at time
 
Damn, I haven't had a meeting in months
I would have so much time for meetings while shit compiles
 
2:45 PM
generally speaking I don't care about workflow optimization unless the time saved is massive and generally the places to save that time are process not tools
 
> Code::Blocks - The IDE with all the features you need
Haha xD
 
What to hate yourself?
 
3:02 PM
I guess I don't need much
 
 
3 hours later…
5:38 PM
While all of you are arguing if windows 7 is better than windows 10. I'll just try to imagine I'm using Windows Vista and waiting for the upcoming Windows 9 release
 
5:56 PM
@Mgetz I designed a tool that enables automatic deployment in docker and can deploy almost anything inside docker with little intervention from a human. Some templates allows to setup everything from proxy configuration to automatic monitoring of said servers
Still our company doesn't use it on a daily basis and for our customer because some people can't comprehend how it works internally. My guess they're scared to use it and if I leave they'll have absolutely no idea how to fix it
The initial reason why I did it is because when people deploy stuff manually they constantly break things and waste my time because I'm the one fixing their fuck ups
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix that's a major issue, at the same time it's a solvable one. The company should consider a devops strategy in general
 
I know that, I've been saying this for a while so while the issue is solvable
the problem lays into the people... Not so long ago my boss requested me to remove the monitoring from one of our RocketChat channel because someone was annoyed to see some things in the channel
 
@LoïcFaure-Lacroix their money
 
My answer was, when the other monitoring system fails mine works and having 2 is better than one. His answer, the other guy get spammed and ignore the message in the channel.
2 days after I removed my monitoring, we got a 9 hours downtime and not a single logs in the monitoring channel except my monitoring channel in which I'm technically the only one
 

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