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01:37
0
A: Modifying a global variable in a constexpr function in C++17

BarryThe program is ill-formed, no diagnostic required, due to [dcl.constexpr]/5: For a constexpr function or constexpr constructor that is neither defaulted nor a template, if no argument values exist such that an invocation of the function or constructor could be an evaluated subexpression of a ...

pernicious
 
1 hour later…
02:48
The joy of bank branch closed before your tiny company do ...
So trying to update the banking info by just changing the branch/BSB number & was told it's the same account. But if you try to use the same account number and the old branch number together, it will return an incorrect account.
03:43
ios app reviewed in less than half a day - that's a record @_@
 
3 hours later…
06:16
06:44
I think an actual pic without the literal top would be even better
07:32
Morning nerds
"is unfair to the countless people that go way out of their way every day to show others how far the limits of patience can really be tested" - I wasn't aware that the purpose of the site was for testing the limits of patience. — sehe 9 secs ago
nwp
nwp
Apparently your limit has not been reached.
@Mysticial When was that discussed :) (I'm not against merging, but I wouldn't suggest it, and had never heard of the idea before)
@nwp oldie (2011 but I like this one better:)
Jul 14 '13 at 21:56, by sehe
free(willy);
throw up;
07:52
whoever says 'countless' might be simply bad at maths ...
nwp
nwp
@sehe From this until the book picture captures my understanding of the merge discussion.
@Morwenn afternoon nerds coming right up
room topic changed to The Base Camp: Penny for a stove? [bear-selfies] [lava-and-marshmellows] [mosquitos-in-software] [raccoon-climbers]
ku ppl
mainly because bear selfies, but mozzies in laptops are always fascinating ...
@sehe they took away being not nice, now they're taking away our sarcastic comments
soon we'll have no way to deal with newbs
but I liked making the quip that my crystal ball was out getting polished :(
08:02
@BartekBanachewicz two hours left before my transformation
People still hang around on meta, lolol - posting on meta for a non member of meta gangsters is like to bang over and protruding your buttock in front of a cage of bored monkeys. You know the chance of your rear get spanked.
Lately I have been converting my rage on Q & A site into energy attention whoring somewhere else (making more app for example)
Sometimes, quarreling in certain places on the internet are like fighting rabid monkeys. Even if you win, you still feel dirty and diseased.
08:39
Wow, heated debate between Boost.Beast and AFIO authors, basically considering each other morons
I love C++ and its community
08:51
probably most of socializing autistic people get - arguing on the internet
hi
i am getting crazy for a problem in c++
try rust instead
nwp
nwp
@DiCri Consider asking about it in here.
08:54
thanks
@Morwen i'll try
Actually I was trolling
I mean, you can try and learn new things, which is always good, but don't assume I gave a fair solution ^^"
09:19
@BartekBanachewicz They never took away being not nice.
That was never an asset to begin with, and you can still not be nice.
@BartekBanachewicz Votes still exist, and ignoring works
@ratchetfreak Me too. Really though, I just liked to show off how far a crystal ball will get you, and then say "sorry I can't get you more details"
@Morwenn Where? Mailing list? Both parties seem like pretty decent people. Is it about the parsing code again?
we just made 13 glasses of smoothie
I like my job
@sehe It's about buffers in the Future Proposal forums
Ah. Interesting. I'm pretty sure Beast just lifted their whole buffer strategies from Asio + some generic message representation types. But I'm curious what new constraints AFIO brings that would require revising/reconsidering the abstractions
No clue where "Future Proposals" forums are. Is that "The Asylum"?
3
just google c++ future proposals
:)
09:26
It's a place partly dominated by Nicol Bolas shitting on people's opinions and arguments
While still being relevant
Congratulations ^^
@sehe Yeah.
09:44
@Morwenn Not seeing much animosity. More like, seeing much brevity ("Remember The Vasa!") from Vinnie+Nicol, and a lot less of it from Niall.
Both sides making good points IYAM.
There's a little bit of "dominance assertion" between Vinnie and Niall but nothing problematic IYAM
To me it looks like a somewhat still polite yet intenses grudge
so are there still people that hope C++ won't be shit or
Ven
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz "won't be"?
like someday
Also "remember the Vasa!" always feels like a gratuitous insult nowadays xD
09:50
cplusplus com has a lounge too, lol
what's Vasa
is that the ship
Remember CORBA would be more accurate. But doesn't sound so catchy.
Vasa is the only ship from its time that still exists today
6
@BartekBanachewicz yep
@Morwenn I think it's different intents/purposes all around. Niall's point all centers around the need for binary compatibility with struct iovec and that somewhat removes all the arguments for Networking TS style buffers
09:51
so why should we remember it in this context?
There's this talk that lists some of the problems the Vasa had. It's really hilarious.
Because it sunk basically for people tried to put too much stuff on it
@BartekBanachewicz Don't over-ornament. The weight will prevent the ship from actually sailing
Don't worry, just like the Vasa C++ wil be restored in a few centuries
And it will be glorious again
I don't believe that for a second
C++ is doomed
09:53
C++ might still outlive you v0v
yes, underwater
I'l write using namespace std; on your grave
it's not doomed in the sense of dying off completely
the real question is ... will C++ outlive meta.stackexchange?
it's doomed in the sense of not being able to be the next good language we need
and world desperately needs new good languages
09:55
like French
There must be something to replace it.
you could replace C++ with C & Java or C#
there are already potential replacements, but they stand no chance until they get backed with real money
It has been partially replaced with Java/C# over the last 20 years.
real money meaning real development hours on boring and tedious upkeep
@StackedCrooked yeah, C# has certainly done a lot in gamedev at least
and in desktop applications
I am particularly interested in low-level/IOT applications though
and low-level programming
09:57
but enough people want to compile to machine code directly that C# won't beat C++
when the dinosaurs die off, someone's still gonna have to maintain our sockets, our TLS, our buffering and caching and rendering
C17 is the new C11
C community is so tonedeaf they haven't even noticed C11
hey, they finally somewhat adopted C99
kernels are still written in C so ...
09:59
And C2x is being designed with nothing remotely fun in it
my idea here is that if we, as a collective civilization, want to go forward with computers, we'll need to seriously rethink the fundamentals everything is built on
it's not like you can re-write kernel in Java
@TelKitty we're just waiting for Linus to die
6
and maintaining the heaps of C code can't possibly last forever
it all will have to be rethought and rewritten at some point in time
don't worry, much of that C code isn't even maintained anymore x)
10:00
@Morwenn what about windows, unix & mac kernels?
yeah, but e.g. screen has been rewritten as tmux
@TelKitty Windows is part C++ part C# IIRC?
@BartekBanachewicz Has it? I wasn't aware that there was any relation. Also, not aware that tmux replaces screen
I guess tmux is also in C so that kinda defeats the point, but I'm pretty sure it's more modern C than the old screen
213
A: What Languages are Windows, Mac OS X and Linux written in?

Paul Betts Windows: C++, kernel is in C Mac: Objective C, kernel is in C (IO PnP subsystem is Embedded C++) Linux: Most things are in C, many userland apps are in Python, KDE is all C++ All kernels will use some assembly code as well.

10:01
@sehe it pretty much does
I use both.
Many (all) platforms come with screen by default, not tmux.
that's a lame argument
thus ... C will never die
Canonical centers their tooling around screen.
many (all) platforms have tmux in their repositories ready to be installed
10:02
@BartekBanachewicz You said it "pretty much replaces". Not me.
@BartekBanachewicz not the same. Canonical centers their tooling around screen (byobu or what is the name of that contraption)
@sehe using "is in default package set" as an argument for a tool is a pretty weak one though
> Byobu now includes an enhanced profiles, convenient keybindings, configuration utilities, and toggle-able system status notifications for both the GNU Screen window manager and the more modern Tmux terminal multiplexer
@BartekBanachewicz Well whatever. It's a lot more tangible than anecdotal claims "X pretty much replaces Y" anyways
@BartekBanachewicz Cool. TIL.
I need to run
bbl
The biggest C proposal proposed this year was explicitly designed and proposed to provide a stable ABI for Herb's exceptions proposal x)
@sehe I like such claims anyway because they leave a pretty clear window for disproval; just one legit use case that's not replaced is enough.
@Morwenn I think that after we get rid of nulls, exceptions should be the next thing to go in the modern languages
When I interview people, I ask them about choosing an exception over an if check.
_Either(expected, unexpected) master race
10:06
Not too many can answer, and those that can at most recite "exceptions are for exceptional situations"
Having fully programmable error contexts is what we (people who actually can program) need
Maybe C++ has newer versions so very often because its existence is threatened by all those other languages that might replace it. C, on the other hand, probably need an update twice a century since there is nothing that could threaten its existence in the next 50 years because of kernels.
> so very often
That's the only way that allows explicitely annotating program behavior
@Morwenn you can still do Either(result, whatever) and not care about whatever
downgrading the error handling is always an option
@BartekBanachewicz I use Python professionally, what's if? :D
@Morwenn the homework exercise I gave them was in Python
go figure
10:12
Don't you always catch StopIteration to end your loops?
lol
how about "error flow is control flow"
or "if you're saying that exceptions aren't for control flow then are you out of control when an error happens?"
I need that on a T-shirt
The C++ committee is turning to "is it a logic error? terminate, is it an out-of-memory error? terminate, can the caller recover from it? ok, exception"
Except sometimes of course
I can recover from the weirdest shit :D
not from a library that crashes on me though
crashes in libraries are literally satan
By logic error, they basically mean that contract violations terminate
put that on the interface
another T-shirt idea: "Put your crashes on the interface!"
10:15
Preconditions and posconditions are part of the function interface
I'm such a fucking nerd.
@Morwenn crashing typically isn't ;)
Preconditions and postconditions terminate if violated, that's part of the interface v0v
no, they should throw
@Morwenn a bad call to API should throw, not terminate, and that's one example of a violated precondition
you should never terminate unless the process' state is corrupted
10:25
They took the "fuck you, we told you not to call it like this" stance x)
nwp
nwp
I like that stance. Catching exceptions never worked out well for me.
nah
12 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
crashes in libraries are literally satan
it just means that when there's a problem, you deny the entire application instead of a specific function
debugging a core dump when the stack ends in 3rd party code is always fun
@Puppy also that
10:27
also debugging them is a complete pain
seriously, that makes me want to host libraries in subprocesses
It means "fix your logic errors, don't try to recover from them"
yes, that's just a broken philosophy
I want to fix my logic errors but in the meantime, I'd like to recover from them.
10:28
It's pure :D
I agree with everything Puppy said today which is very rare
@Morwenn Clients don't give a fuck
nwp
nwp
Is this opposite day?
the only time you should terminate is when the process state is corrupted, like reading/writing to invalid memory
also it's easier for me to fix my logic error if all my diagnostic tools work
Sorry, I don't have clients for my C++
10:29
all other cases should throw.
Safe Haskell is quite literally about that BTW
a library passing "safe" checks is something you are guaranteed to use without a fear of it blowing in your face
Ven
Ven
But I'd love to blow in your face
blowing in people's faces doesn't inherently appeal to me but at a minimum, I'd require that the face belogns to a woman
 
1 hour later…
nwp
nwp
11:45
Why does gcc ICE on regexes and why does it go away when removing -g?
Is it just a coliru ulimit thing and regex has a lot of code?
@nwp I'd suspect it's a bit of both, but you're not passing the optimize flag anyway
 
1 hour later…
13:10
what happens if a harddrive goes on a diet?
it becomes an exFat ...
my joke so not funny
dumb ... i haz it
@TelKitty you mean he got a new format?
so it might even now be a SuperSlimDrive?
My father fixed our scale yesterday, so I decided to check my weight in the evening then in the morning to see how it changes
I was 52.5kg in the evening and 51.0kg in the morning
What do I even do at night to lose that much weight?
nwp
nwp
Sweating mostly. Maybe some other body fluids too.
Ven
Ven
13:23
pee
wank a ton
who knows
exhaling as well
I did pee in the morning, but let's be real I can't pee 1.5kg of water XD
Want to lose weight? Sleep
I should be careful though, if I love another kilo I can't give blood >.>
badum tssssypo
 
2 hours later…
15:26
@BartekBanachewicz that's a funny representation of an argument that was based on preferred adoption on arguably the most widely used Linux distribution. And I love disprovable claims better than the ones that are so lazy that they leave the burden of proof on the other party ;)
I was not aware that tmux was intended as a screen replacement, much less that it had succeeded. But indeed I admit that it looks like it nowadays
@BartekBanachewicz Why do you hate exceptions so much?
I don't think he said that? He's aware of the downsides, and mentioned that few programmers understand, as far as I can tell
@BartekBanachewicz wouldn't that depend on the quality of the library? Or rather, the presence of a crash is the evil
 
1 hour later…
16:51
@BartekBanachewicz That's what I do. Two of the libraries I use have a bad habit of dividing by zero when no hardware is connected. We really need an std::process to help with life cycle management.
@sehe Some months ago. Don't remember exactly when. Not all the ROs heard about it. I think something like 5 of us were in favor of merging. 1 was against. And it died there. We didn't try chasing down all the ROs since most of them are inactive now and it wasn't unanimous anyway.
 
1 hour later…
17:58
@Mysticial it wasn't just the ROs, it was actually some of the people that are regularly answering questions. We felt the spam from it was probably more than people wanted
18:19
Oh man. Apparently I got the wrong type of certificate.
In order to have subdomains (like coliru.stacked-crooked.com) I need the more expensive one.
why not Let's Encrypt?
Speaking of which. I need to figure out how to do https - even if my site is completely static.
@milleniumbug It doesn't support my webserver (Webrick) (at least not out of the box). I could switch to nginx though.
@Mysticial I'm finding it rather painful.
But that's because I'm stupid.
@StackedCrooked Or rather, we're not full stack people.
I suppose.
It's more of an IT admin job. Updating dns records etc.
18:25
fair enough. manual setup should still be possible though.
So I have purchased a certificate and finally got it to work for stacked-crooked.com. But it doesn't work for coliru.stacked-crooked.com. (It does work if I add a security exception to chrome.)
yeah, that's literally it
I was confused when they said the certificate supports multiple domains. It means that I can also use "stacked-crooked.org" or ".net". But not subdomains.
either get certs for specific subdomains, or get wildcard cert
Probably gonna get wildcard cert. It's 120 EUR/year though.
At least on Gandi.
18:28
for me that's enough to consider setting up let's encrypt by myself, but then again it's time/money tradeoff, so YMMV
I should probably use letsencrypt since I'll probably screw up and leak my private key or something.
lol
I found let's encrypt set up to be not too difficult, except for the part where you have to expose http://your-domain.com/.well-known/ to the public, and to point to specific directory on your hard drive
@StackedCrooked That's not cheap.
it's also not too difficult, but I needed a few tries to get it right
18:44
Is there a quick way to develop and debug huge C++ applications (like chrome for example) ? My current process involves making a change and then building for several hours to see if my changes worked, there's gotta be better, right?
nwp
nwp
Your build system should only rebuild the necessary parts which should not take hours.
And if it does require rebuilding things for hours then get more faster CPUs.
the key realization is that huge applications are just like small applications, except bigger
4
@nwp tbf Bruce Dawson has a full on 56 logical thread xeon for a workstation for this reason IIRC
@nwp I must be doing something wrong then. I'll research the specific chrome system then. Chrome uses gn and ninja, which is unlike any other build system... Thanks
@Louis Chrome has pretty good dev forums I'd look through their documentation and the forums first. Because chrome is deliberately designed to not require full rebuilds for dev
18:56
or rewrite so you don't need hour long compile times, though it's very hard to profile a build
19:17
@Mgetz Yeah I think it's ok to keep them separate. it's even OK if one rooms dies of inactivity. That stuff will regulate itself on its own /cc @Mysticial
@sehe I don't think either will die... but it might become less active
@milleniumbug I feel there has been a specific day you started to speak these wise one-liners. I love them
@Mysticial What does it being static matter :)
There is no such thing as "static" on the web anymore, and transit is by definition subject to privacy issues
@sehe It doesn't other than a static site being a lot less simply to manage.
Every part of that seems unrelated to SSL, except maybe cross-site considerations
At the very least, I don't have to worry about stuff like SQL injection unless the host company itself is vulnerable. (which has happened before)
19:22
@sehe :3
@Mysticial That has nothing to do with SSL, right
@sehe Now you realize how little I know about web development. :)
Yeah. Basically, SSL is not about site security.
It's about transport "security", mainly just privacy of it, and perhaps some guarantees wrt replayability, repudiation, authentication.
But the latter is vastly less important, which is why LetsEncrypt exists
An SSL socket is a wrapper around your TCP socket. It encrypts everything you write to the socket and it decrypts everything you read from it.
HTTPS is HTTP over a SSL socket.
@Mysticial you also won't have to worry about airports and comcrap advertising on your pages without your permission (I wonder if there is a copyright possibility there...)
19:34
In retrospect it's crazy that we used to login to gmail over plain http.
Or any other site.
@Mgetz That's one of the reasons why I want to switch to https.
@Mysticial so I'm wondering if you can actually make a claim against the people that do that sort of injection, as they are technically creating a derivative work that's unlicensed and unauthorized
@Mgetz Interesting thought.
Hello room... Anyone familiar with Android NDK here? I need help building this github.com/divideon/xvc/tree/dev for Android to run some comparison tests with H.265 codec
@OhenepeePeps This is the C++ room.
19:38
@Mysticial Recall in theory you have to automatically grant people license for the ephemeral copies in memory, and for such translation needed to display it. But I think that still requires "As If" semantics, it doesn't allow them to alter it
@Mysticial Yeah I know... Android NDK has to do with C++
@StackedCrooked Back then these applications used to do challenge-response without sending the clear text or a plain hash
@StackedCrooked I don't think gmail was ever http
@OhenepeePeps Oh. Sorry, never heard of it.
I know hotmail was at one point
19:41
@Mgetz In a way it's the people using the proxy that commit that act, as they agreed to the terms of using the network
@sehe First rule of lawsuits: sue the people with money
@StackedCrooked I think the login was still https, just not gmail itself prior. I know I set that setting earlier
@Mgetz But not the ones with too much money or they'll sue you back.
@Mysticial Nah they'll pay you off unless it's the UK and it's defamation
Personally I'd would use a stealth tracker to track over a 1 year period how many and who did that crap (but not anything about the users) and then sue the US based ones for statutory damages
@Mgetz Second rule: have a case that cannot be blown away by entry level lawyers
19:44
@sehe True, you always want better lawyers than your opponent if possible
I'm not saying I would do this without asking an actual copyright attorney first
@Mgetz That'll probably depend on the publicity. If there's no publicity, they'll settle if you have a legitimate case. If it's full blown public such as Trump vs. Stormy, then they might fight it to save their reputation.
Cursory google search shows that some of the providers doing it have stopped after apparently getting legal opinions stating that they were in fact infringing. The increase in HTTPS and HSTS connections has also significantly impacted them
@Mgetz interesting
@Mysticial Nah I just want between 700 and 30000 as the court feels is just per ad injected
actually I stand corrected since it's a willful infringement 150,000
 
2 hours later…
22:15
@Mgetz If you have a case then even the best lawyers will be worried and they'll try to go for a settlement.
nobody really wants to go to court
22:40
@ratchetfreak People don't want to go to court. Attorneys often do want to go to court. In the typical case, they collect their fees regardless of whether you win or lose...
23:30
@Morwenn Then what? We'll write them in Rust?

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