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12:00 AM
@DallasWhite Hello. How are you?
 
@JerryCoffin Sounds about right; there are so many things to go wrong that it's not simple in practice
 
@JerryCoffin Some of the earlier versions of the pi program (2009-ish), "solved" the parallelization problem by splitting the memory region equally. So when say 2 functions running in parallel, the return values are at the bottom of the heap and the middle of the heap. And the only way to move on was to move (defragment) the ones in the middle to the bottom.
That was before the program had the ability to pre-allocate return values.
Now, they return values get preallocated at the bottom of the heap before making the parallel function calls.
 
@Aaron3468 It's not just a matter of so many things that could go wrong. Especially with threading, it's often a matter of there not being any one point at which you can deterministically know that a particular block of memory is no longer needed.
 
Thats when the smart pointers come in :-)
Or rather as in my program a memory pool object that "knows"
 
wtf? 0 > 0 is returning true? Oh, nvm. I iterated the original list a second time instead of the iterated value, so the comparison wasn't between integer and integer. Strongly typed languages are my preference for that reason
 
12:23 AM
@Mikhail There are a few cases where essentially the only reliable method is a garbage collector to go through after the fact and see whether anybody can access the memory any more. Fortunately, those are usually pretty easy to avoid.
 
@StackedCrooked Snake: the beginning /cc @Mysticial
 
lol
 
Apparently the anime in question is Tokyo Ghoul?
 
12:33 AM
@Mysticial Can we hope the guy in the "orange" box is an "agent"?
 
Ell
Ooohhhhhh
 
The biggest threat to any program is the fact that everybody has different needs, expectations, and priorities T.T
 
Ell
I think we can hope for "an" agent
Not "agent" :v
 
@Ell The point is, it's "agent orange"...
 
@Aaron3468 I had a recent example of that. The guys on HWBOT want me to add temperature sensing support for an upcoming no-liquid-nitrogen overclocking competition. And the no-subzero cooling part is difficult to enforce.
 
12:35 AM
@JerryCoffin Couldnt construct a logical sentence containing "soviet nam...", pun attempt: failed. :(
 
Writing a reliable temperature sensor is harder than getting congress to do anything productive.
 
@Mysticial Congress is about to get a Trump card in that department.
 
They linked me to an open-sourced project to look at. The problem is that:
1) It's written in C#.
2) It gets updated every other week to support a new processor which it previous breaks on.
 
Yep. What is a temperature sensor? 1 sensor in the cpu? 3 in the case?... What is temperature? ambient? core? cooling system? hdd? case?
 
@Mysticial Con is the opposite of Pro, so Congress is the opposite of...
 
12:39 AM
So I basically had to decline that feature request. The only way it will happen is if and when I add plugin support. Then someone else can do it.
I'm not going to be writing hardware drivers.
 
Some problems are so broad that every assumption you make screws with somebody else's sub-problem. I think that was the right choice. If they need the src, it's there
Or at worst, they make a simple vm to pause execution as temperature gets too high or low
 
@Aaron3468 Yeah. That's a general weakness to competitive benchmarking.
Since the VM can fool everything.
I have undocumented heuristics in the program to detect if it's running in a VM. But the program doesn't try to draw any conclusions or block a submission if it does detect it.
The raw numbers of the heuristic are submitted as of the validation.
And if a human wants to look at it he/she can and then make a manual decision on whether to invalidate the submission.
 
lol, you'd think that the competition would require an isolated, competition-organizer-owned temperature sensing system to be installed.
 
user406009
Why does temperate matter?
 
user406009
The machine either works or it doesn't.
 
12:44 AM
@Lalaland It affects your overclock.
If you have enough cooling you can run at 6+ GHz.
With ambient cooling, you're not getting above 5 GHz.
 
user406009
@Mysticial Yes. But I'm saying to let people overclock until the CPU stops working.
 
@Lalaland Not everybody wants to do that. The pool of overclockers is already pretty small. And of those, few are willing to destroy $1000+ chips.
Especially if the chip is a "golden chip".
 
user406009
Ah. I see. It's a way of reducing the amount of possible damage. In the same way that many robotics competitions have strict rules about not purposely damaging other robots.
 
Yeah, some people spend thousands of dollars buying "many" chips and binning them to find a good overclocker.
 
12:49 AM
@Lalaland Not just that. A few see liquid nitrogen as a "performance enhancing drug", and want an equivalent of blood tests to screen it out (and such tests are likely to be about as successful as blood tests have proven).
 
Or enclosures to prevent aggressive bots from flinging shrapnel at onlookers. I can see why they might limit the maximum kinetic energy instead
 
this answer is 113 lines I am a terrible person
 
Those are called "golden chips". You can't buy them because nobody sells them. The people who (knowingly) have a golden chip are also the ones who would want to use it for competitive benchmarking.
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin Yeah. But that's because we are worried about the harm to people.
 
@jaggedSpire :3
 
12:50 AM
@Borgleader :3
I mean 16 lines is link definitions
so there's that at least
 
user406009
The fear is that allowing performance enhancing drugs will cause many young athletic people to be irreversibly damaged as they are forced to take horrible drugs to keep up.
 
user406009
Well, there are other reasons as well. But that's the most convincing one IMHO.
 
@Lalaland I think that's the most compelling argument I've heard. Most people appeal to ethics by saying 'the competition should be natural'
 
I've built 5 OC'able machines in the past 10 years. I think only two of those were "above average" chips.
 
@Lalaland I'm not sure that's really true. If we were honestly worried about people hurting themselves, we'd flat-out eliminate a lot of "sports". Even without performance enhancing drugs, quite a few involve people doing things we have excellent reason to believe will hurt themselves.
 
user406009
12:52 AM
Yeah. But that's a dumb argument. So many parts of pro sports are "un natural"
 
user406009
Even just the materiel they use for the track allows for greatly improved running times.
 
Honestly, I think any sort of competition inspires people to maximize performance without consideration of costs.
 
user406009
@Aaron3468 Yeah. I think sports in general are way overemphasized (in the US at least).
 
user406009
We have high schools spending god knows how much money and time on sports.
 
user406009
12:54 AM
We have high school students ignoring academics just to play on teams.
 
user406009
Not even ignoring the permanent damage people are suffering from concussions in football.
 
@Lalaland And we have high school students sacrificing sleep to get academic edges too
 
user406009
(American football, not real football)
 
@Mysticial There is that sort of thing too, but I was thinking more of things like weightlifting and bodybuilding. Here, even without something to point to as an injury, life expectancy is drastically reduced compared to the average.
 
user406009
@Aaron3468 Well, that's just dumb for other reasons.
 
12:56 AM
@Aaron3468 Adderall. The academic steroids. I admit to using it (via prescription) in high school. And it was the only way to stay competitive. (which I never was)
 
user406009
(Of course it depends on your life story)
 
I spend my entire summer after graduation getting off that shit.
 
user406009
(If you have to work while in high school, I can sort of understand you needing more time)
 
This is probably the craziest wingsuit video I've seen. The camera man died a few months ago.
 
Anything defined as a goal requires sacrifice of resources to achieve. I think the most important is analyzing any implied consequences, known and unknown, of what you use toward that goal. And when it comes to health, the unknowns are numerous.
 
1:01 AM
@Lalaland I dunno. I mean, sure it's kind of stupid and pointless, but if we don't have high school sports, what are we going to give idiots to think of as the highlight of their life? I know that sounds sarcastic, but it's not--or only half sarcastic, anyway. One of the (few) times I visited my home-town, I ran into one of my former class-mates at a bar. He'd been a football star in high-school, and his wife was the head cheerleader.
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin If the highlight of your life was in highschool, I think you are going to be pretty bummed out anyways.
 
Competition is what we use for a sense of purpose, honestly. I don't think many people could be happy without it
 
user406009
But I do see your point. Sports allows students to engage with the school even if they aren't doing well academically.
 
user406009
Instead of dropping out, I assume many students stay in just for the sports.
 
user406009
Not to mention that sports usually require you to have a 2.0 average GPA or so, so you are given an encouragement to study at least a little bit.
 
user406009
1:04 AM
I really just dislike schools (both high schools and universities) pumping so much money into sports.
 
@Lalaland Or the dating; I knew more than a few people who only occupied their time with school because it made hooking up so much easier
 
user406009
(Although I guess you could argue that the sports players would prefer for the high schools and universities to not pump money into CS labs. Fair is fair I guess.)
 
@Lalaland Probably--when I ran into him, he was selling used cars, and she was a receptionist. I honestly half believe if they didn't have stories about high-school to console themselves with, they might well have both committed suicide or something. Certainly their lives were (or at least seemed to me) pretty shitty, and would have been a lot worse otherwise.
 
So I guess schools do serve the important purpose of binning people and ensuring they have some minimum exposure to the many different elements of adult life
 
user406009
@Aaron3468 Yes, that is one of the goals of high school.
 
user406009
1:06 AM
That's why they are required to expose you to many different disciplines.
 
@Lalaland Probably. In fairness, at the college level a lot of sports programs are actually quite profitable and support quite a bit of the rest of the school.
 
should I mention reset in this monstrosity
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin Depends on the school. The vast majority of sports programs lose money.
 
user406009
Especially when you consider the "non-profitable" sports such as track and field or whatever.
 
If it's not for profit, it's for fun :)
 
1:07 AM
Every other wingsuit video I find on YT has a participant who is dead.
It makes me feel guilty just watching the videos.
 
but wingsuit
 
user406009
Nowadays they have indoor skydiving though, which can provide some of the experience at pretty much no risk.
 
risk(collision with object) = tiny number; risk(collision) = tiny number ^ objects passed; therefore, it's reasonable to assume the risk of fatalities by wingsuit is going to be fairly high for anybody competitive
 
Skydiving isn't that bad. Basic basejumping/wingsuit flying isn't that bad. But proximity wingsuit flying (the ones you see on YT) are the ones that kill.
 
user406009
@Aaron3468 It's actually risk(collision) =1 - (1 - tiny number) ^ objects passed :P
 
user406009
1:12 AM
(Assuming independence between objects, blah, blah, blah)
 
Shhhh :p Back of the envelope calculations and all
 
@Lalaland Yeah, probably (at least roughly) follows the standard 80:20 rule. 20% (or so) make enough money that they subsidize the rest of the college to at least some degree, and 80%...don't.
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin It's very hard to actually calculate real numbers because you can't really account for how sports draw in alumni donations (if they do at all)
 
@Mysticial Sure--but people are doing it for the adrenaline rush that's specifically because of the danger.
 
aaaand now it's 126 lines
RIP linked noobs
what is brevity
 
1:16 AM
Brevity is the soul of wit; 404 not found
 
@Lalaland Oh, I realize. I also know that (for one example) at UCSD the students recently voted to move up to NCAA division I by more than a 2:1 margin, even though that'll increase student fees--also by at least a 2:1 margin (because there's essentially no chance it'll even be close to profitable).
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin I assume there is also some voting bias in there.
 
user406009
People more likely to vote probably care more about stuff like "school spirit"
 
@Lalaland That's certainly possible--the referendum only had a ~35% turnout...
@Aaron3468 Oh, come on. Get it straight. Brevity is really the soul of...lingerie.
 
lol
noob: how do I RAII?
jagged: *slams tome down on table* WELL YOU SEE
 
1:24 AM
Later all. I'm heading home.
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin Good night.
 
@JerryCoffin night!
 
user406009
Speaking of school, @Mysticial is there anything you think I should know before committing to doing a PhD? I'm having a lot of trouble thinking of what to do after graduation and I know you went somewhat far down that route.
 
@JerryCoffin Is she vengeful? I don't want lingerie randomly attacking me on the street because I accidentally put it in the dryer.
 
@Aaron3468 now that would be a sight
 
1:37 AM
@Lalaland Make sure you really want to do it and that you have a passion for what you will be doing in the program.
Don't get stuck in an area you don't like.
And make sure you get along with the prof you intend to work with.
 
user406009
@Mysticial Hmm. I'll have to think about that. Thanks!
 
And you wanna be sure that you're actually competent in the field that you're going into.
I wasn't and that why I dropped out.
I didn't have the ability to memorize hundreds of papers. And that's why I failed.
 
user406009
The main thing is that I'm not too certain that I want to do research for 4-6 years.
 
If you're not certain, either don't do it or be ready to leave with a masters.
TBH, I had a number of friends and family who are actually telling me that I made they made the wrong decision to stick around for a Ph.D. As in, the extra time they spent wasn't worth as much as 5 years of work experience as far as salary goes.
So you better like what you do.
 
user406009
@Mysticial That's what I have heard from most of the people I asked as well.
 
1:44 AM
That said, if you nail your Ph.D and go into finance or some large company that does a lot of research, you'll make a lot more than your average "seasoned" person.
 
yeah, but thats not a PhD in CS
 
I've heard of Ph.Ds making 200 - 500k fresh out of school in finance. I mean half of them get fired within a year, but they did make that much.
 
helps if you have connections
 
user406009
@Mysticial That seems like a huge gamble though. Especially vs just working for a large company.
 
Finance is somewhat more insane than other industries. But yeah, CS PhDs aren't gonna make that 500k out of school.
Seeing as how I got fired from my first finance job and from what I've heard from others.
 
user406009
1:48 AM
I have also heard that PhDs can be very useful when trying to work for a non-software company. They can't evaluate applicants as well due to the lack of in-house tech knowledge, so they rely more on degree title.
 
Alternatively, most fields are crowded
 
Is anyone willing to look over my question-answer pair to brutally maim the weakness out of it before I post it to Q&A?
 
The degree matters most for the first job. It's mostly that you better know your shit during the interviews.
 
Also don't do graduate school, typically you're told that you work hard on interesting things but don't get paid anything. In reality, you're going to be working on bullshit and won't learn much.
 
@Mysticial This. Once you have an interview, they're just double checking that you meet the qualifications they already like on paper.
 
2:11 AM
welp
0
Q: Using RAII to manage resources from a C-style API

jaggedSpireResource Acquisition is Initialization (RAII) is commonly used in C++ to manage the lifetimes of resources which require some manner of cleanup code at the end of their lifetime, from deleteing newed pointers to releasing file handles. How do I quickly and easily use RAII to manage the lifetime ...

time to babysit it for the next two hours to fix any issues anyone notices
 
@jaggedSpire Does it really add anything that's not already in the FAQ? E.g., stackoverflow.com/q/161177/179910
 
Xeo
Guys. I need help remembering an RPG. Whenever I think of it, I can only remember "Sacred", but that's a different one. Typical 3rd person camera, and IIRC you start in some kinda tree village. It's a bit older now. Something with "Spell", maybe?
 
Oh wait....
 
>rpg
>kinda tree village
zelda
 
Xeo
nope
 
2:20 AM
give more criteria, 3d, 2d, story, etc
 
Xeo
3D
 
Shinning Force
 
Xeo
you can have followers
and there were multiple titles in the series
(not Diablo)
 
RPG, action rpg, tactical rpg...?
how are the combats? separate scene or in world? turn by turn or live?
 
Xeo
@AndreasPapadopoulos live
normal action RPG
well
 
2:21 AM
@JerryCoffin I think so. This is a bit more hand-holdy, so to speak, than an overview of RAII itself, and is dedicated to the more tightly focused goal of managing C api resources as simply as possible.
 
Xeo
not sure if really action
just... RPG-y
 
@Xeo action rpg is zelda-like, regular rpg is FF-like, tactical rpg is golden sun chronicles or whatever the name was
 
...oh my
I deliberately didn't put the c++-faq tag on it
and now it's been edited in
 
@Xeo Well, there were RPG, RPG II, RPG III, RPG IV, and RPG Open Access. If you're talking really old, the predecessor to RPG was FARGO (Fourteen-oh-one Automatic Report Generation Operation) but as the name implies that was for the IBM 1401, which has been obsolete since the 1960s, so few people remember it, not to mention knowing or caring. An awful lot of paper was wasted on RPG coding forms (and probably on printing RPG-generated reports) but that's about the only connection to forests.
 
2
Q: Using RAII to manage resources from a C-style API

jaggedSpireResource Acquisition is Initialization (RAII) is commonly used in C++ to manage the lifetimes of resources which require some manner of cleanup code at the end of their lifetime, from deleteing newed pointers to releasing file handles. How do I quickly and easily use RAII to manage the lifetime ...

 
Xeo
2:24 AM
@JerryCoffin Okay now, when I say "old", I don't mean "prehistoric", you living fossil. :)
8
 
augh
 
Xeo
@AndreasPapadopoulos It's just your typical RPG like Titan Quest, Diablo, Baldur's Gate. Not sure if that has any extra qualifiers
 
@Xeo Aaah ok
Those are Hack n Slash
 
Xeo
It was pretty well known too, IIRC.
 
Let me think
 
Xeo
2:26 AM
Okay, I remember now
 
@jaggedSpire Fair enough--I tend to think a lot of the FAQ Q&A's got a little too long from trying to cover too much ground, so I like at least the general idea.
 
Xeo
I remembered that I had the install files on my external HDD
so I just checked those
twas Dungeon Siege (2, specifically)
 
lol, rubber duck'ed
 
Xeo
ye, thanks
 
@JerryCoffin oh, good. I'm relieved the idea at least meets your vague approval.
 
2:29 AM
@jaggedSpire Yup--my approval will get you a 2 buck coffee for no more than 5 bucks.
 
@JerryCoffin lol
what a deal!
 
@Mysticial someone told me you are reasonably decent with computers and I was wondering if I could ask a doubt
 
@Xeo Star Ocean!
 
What's a "computer"? Is it a pokemon?
2
 
Wait, I'm jumping to conclusions. I really did enjoy the mix of 2D/3D in that one though
 
2:35 AM
@Mysticial I was wondering, do modern CPUs have shorter pipelines for commonly-used instructions?
 
I don't think so.
Some trivial instructions get short-circuited from the pipeline.
 
Ok, so your 1-cycle mov is still gonna eat a full 20 cycle pipeline?
 
Such as reg-reg moves and zeroing operations get handled by the renamer.
 
Wait, xor eax, eax would be optimized or something?
 
@Darkrifts Correct.
 
2:37 AM
Maybe wrong registry names, but idk ASM much
 
But for the most part, making exceptions to anything is harder than not.
So a fixed pipeline keeps things simple.
 
Is there a single pipeline for all types of operations or still split for floating point?
 
The vector FPU in Skylake is 4 cycles for everything. FMA, 4 cycles. Add? Also 4 cycles.
 
If I could figure out the absolute low level functions and ASM -> C++/C, I could maybe work on it some :P
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos That depends on the chip. Nowadays the pipeline still splits into integer and FP.
 
2:39 AM
Or, calling C/C++ from ASM I mean
 
But I think that split is becoming more like, scalar vs. vector.
 
@Darkrifts You can do it the other way around with the asm() command
 
Yeah, but I meant, like for calling a function like void X() from ASM
I'll work on it later
 
@Mysticial Makes sense.
 
When they say "FPU" what they really mean is the entire fucking vector unit including the integer vector stuff.
 
2:42 AM
@Darkrifts commanding an external virtual machine with unknown commands is harder than running external functions from within a virtual machine that has known commands
 
@Mysticial lol
 
user4710450
Hi
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos To be fair, it's not an entirely inaccurate depiction. The vector unit really is an FPU with some functionality to do integer stuff. The SIMD integer multipliers go into the FP multipliers with some of the bits zeroed out.
 
user4710450
I have seen this gem for Ruby :
http://github.com/stympy/faker
Is it possible to have something like this in C++?
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos You don't get a shorter pipeline. You do often get better throughput by being able to execute more of them at once and/or them sitting in the execution unit for a shorter period of time.
 
2:44 AM
@Ehsan yes
 
user4710450
Um, how?
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, I was just wondering if there was such an optimization for very cheap and common instructions.
 
user4710450
@AndreasPapadopoulos I really didn't figure the Ruby code
 
@Ehsan Same as in Ruby except written in C++
 
lel
 
2:46 AM
@AndreasPapadopoulos They're all handled in the front end. Decoder/renaming stage.
Macro-op fusion of cmp + jmp, handed by the decoder.
 
user4710450
@AndreasPapadopoulos I'm not a Ruby pro and I just can't realize how they have managed to create an awesome tool like this ...
 
So you boot them out of the pipeline way early.
 
@Ehsan You have a database of basic features and rules to generate things
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos There is on some CPUs, and used to be on older Intel's, before they wen to OOO execution engines. With OOO execution, pipeline depth (in itself) doesn't mean all that much except when you hit a bubble, and there differences in depth don't mean much either--they all happen in the execution stages, and with a pipeline bubble you're going to start from the beginning regardless.
 
user4710450
Um, so I need a very large database all information, right?
 
user4710450
2:48 AM
for example credit cards
 
@Ehsan Better question: why? As in: why would anybody bother? This doesn't look like a place that you'd gain much (if anything) by using C++.
 
@JerryCoffin The pipeline actually seems to end once the uop goes into one of the execution ports. Then all hell breaks loose with the OOE.
The stuff coming out of the execution ports get fed into a separate pipeline for retirement.
 
Speaking of retirement I need to prepare mine, too.
 
user4710450
@JerryCoffin OK.
 
Then have some sort of scoreboard to make sure all the stores to memory go in order.
 
user4710450
2:49 AM
But how do these Fake Credit Card generates work?
 
It'd be nearly impossible to maintain x86's acquire/release semantics if writes didn't get broadcast in order.
 
user4710450
Do they have a large database of Cards or they generate a number with an algorithm?
 
Credit card numbers are just numbers that follow a certain property, anyone can generate one
 
user4710450
@AndreasPapadopoulos So they are created based an algorithm, right?
 
The algo is on wikipedia even
 
user4710450
2:51 AM
@AndreasPapadopoulos Thanks.
 
@Mysticial That's kind of my point--when there was variation in depth, it was in that part, so with OOE, it's almost meaningless. Things like instruction fetch and decoding have to happen regardless. Oh, I guess we should mention one other point though: there are typically more decoders for simple instructions, and only one for complex ones (for varying definitions of "complex").
 
The x86 decoding thing is fucking mess.
I took a look at some of the specifics last week. And it scared the shit out of me.
Instructions with arbitrary amount of prefixes and suffixes.
Register bits scattered all over the fucking place.
 
@Mysticial You obviously should have worked on getting your PhD in "understatement", because that was definitely PhD-level understatement.
 
Being scared is the right attitude ... for any newbie in the field
 
@Mysticial It's called engineering.
 
2:54 AM
It's the first 3 fits of one register are in 3 or 4 byte + X number of prefixes. The 4th bit (for 16 registers) is in the REX prefix before the instruction. Then in AVX512, the EVEX prefix has the 5th bit for all 3 operands.
 
@Mysticial I wrote an x86 disassembler once. It was ugly even then, and nowadays it's much worse. By comparison, Motorola instruction sets were a breeze to decode.
 
user4710450
@Telkitty Yeah, exactly. +1
 
For AVX and VEX, the 4th operand is escaped via the m-bits, but only for the instructions that need it.
I mean like...
I don't even...
I guess that's why Intel gave up on 4 operand instructions.
But I totally understand how it got into this shitty situation.
Unlike software, you can't re-balance the tree with a refactor.
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos It's really called "binary compatibility all the way back to the 8086, and largely even the 8080". Intel has written a lot cleaner instruction sets since, and they didn't have any less engineering involved (in fact, Itanium's was fairly clever in some ways, and definitely had a lot of engineering involved).
 
@JerryCoffin What they need to is sacrifice one leading op-code. And use it as an escape for a completely new encoding that supports all the existing instructions, but just better.
Don't pollute the existing space anymore. Let the existing decode fade away like the x87 FPU.
Since the x87 FPU hasn't grown in all these years, it's basically so insignificant because of the die-shrinks. So modern chips have a completely separate unit just for the x87 FPU that shares nothing with the vector units. And it probably doesn't use much area.
If you look at Skylake, SIMD floating-point add is 4 cycles. (double precision). But the x87 FPU add is 3 cycles (extended precision).
The reason is obvious.
 
3:01 AM
@Mysticial I don't think it really even needs to be a leading op-code. I think it should be a mode change. We already have real mode, 16-bit protected mode, 32-bit protected mode, and a couple of 64-bit modes. Actually, when they mentioned cleaning up the instructions for 64-bit mode, I expected they'd do something about encoding, but all they did was get rid of a few of the least-used BCD instructions and such.
 
@JerryCoffin I agree. That's a better solution.
@JerryCoffin At least getting rid of the BCD instructions freed up some room for VEX and EVEX.
But VEX and EVEX used up IIRC, all 3 of the remaining leading opcode bytes that could used that way.
They're out of fucking room unless they start using the 0F escape sequence.
 
@Mysticial Yeah, but it left the real problem. "Doctor, this man's leg just got chopped off". "Well, keep that on ice--we'll want skin from it to graft over the end of the stump."
 
@JerryCoffin Maybe that is their plan for the future.
A new mode to fix all this madness.
And they might as well throw out a bunch of old instructions as well.
You don't need fucking like what, 16 of the precious leading byte opcode spots for fucking add.
Oh, only 10 are for add. Yeah, that's 9.5 too much.
 
3:18 AM
@Mysticial You're thinking entirely too much in terms of the existing encoding, IMO. Why worry about the leading byte at all? That made a lot of sense on an 8088 with an 8-bit external bus, and (mostly) 16-bit internal buses, but external buses expanded out to at least 64 bits years ago, and internal are wider still. I'd use 16-bit chunks. Research says that's about the average size anyway.
 
Good point.
I just kept thing that first byte as entirely an opcode byte.
 
@Mysticial 4 cycles, what width?
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos All widths.
Including scalar.
 
And what's the max width of Skylake? I don't know by heart :p
 
256-bit
The entire vector FPU is natively a 4-cycle FMA. Adds and multiplies are merely a + 1*b and` 0 + a*b`. So everything is 4 cycles, including adds which can be done faster than that.
The x87 FPU is a completely separate unit that shares no resources with the vector unit.
So it keeps the 3-cycle add from before. And that's an 80-bit extended precision add.
It probably shares resources with the integer scalar unit. At the very least the 64-bit multiplier could be shared.
 
3:23 AM
Is the x87 FPU still used?
 
But the point is that it's completely separate from the vector unit. Each 64-bit lane in the vector unit has been intentionally dumbed down to be as minimal as possible so they can copy-paste it 7 times for AVX512 without taking half a chip of area. (15 times if you include both ports)
 
I still don't recall why we can transform binary and replace AVX256 with AVX512 when available...
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos Legacy shit.
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos Unless you're running a 32-bit OS, no. Most current OSes don't even save/restore the x87 during task switches, so you basically can't use it.
 
@JerryCoffin They have to. Because you can still use the x87 FPU in x64 mode.
 
3:28 AM
@Mysticial I'd have to check to be sure, but I was pretty sure I saw something from Microsoft when Vista 64 came out saying they weren't going to handle it any more, so you weren't supposed to use it (but you might get away with it, as long as only one process used it).
 
@JerryCoffin Way too many early compilers generated x87 FPU code even on x64. And ICC will do it if you use long double.
They have to save it.
 
ICC sucks though, so...
I should really look into how to compile things, and by doing so, assembly
 
@Mysticial Hmm...I remember it clearly enough I'm almost certain it can't be just my imagination. Oh, I think I've got it: user-mode code can use it, but kernel-mode code (drivers) can't. That part of state save/restore is in a device driver that kernel mode code can't use (or maybe a flag they can't set...something like that).
 
user4710450
@Darkrifts
 
user4710450
man I went to your website
 
user4710450
3:34 AM
and played this game :
http://darkrifts.wixsite.com/darkrifts/popupsimgame
 
user4710450
What the fucking was that?
It made my browser crash. lol
 
> Prevent this page from creating additional dialogues? - Yes
 
user4710450
@Aaron3468 Yes it didn't show the alerts but hanged the browser. :|
 
@JerryCoffin Ah, for drivers.
Drivers are supposedly also banned from using the ymm and zmm registers.
 
user4710450
3:38 AM
Man do you call this a game!?
Alerting in an infinite loop..
 
But they are free to use the xmm registers using non-vex encoded instructions provided that they manually save and restore them.
 
yee
 
user4710450
@Darkrifts But was funny
 
user4710450
How does money increase in this game?
 
3:41 AM
@Ehsan To stop it, you have to get to a mod 100 alert :P
Or else you git shrekt
@Ehsan You build houses, get a profit from selling them, and you earn income from them if I remember correctly
You get taxed every so often on houses you still own though I think
 
user4710450
@Darkrifts Hmm...
 
user4710450
And if I buy all the houses I win?
 
There is no "win"
If you sell them all, you can build more
 
@Mysticial Nah--you can use ymm, as long as you save/restore them (pretty much the same as 32-bit drivers had to do with x87 registers, using Ke(Save|Restore)ExtendedProcessorState. Linked page shows use of YMM regs.
 
user4710450
@Darkrifts Quite interesting game :D
 
3:44 AM
@JerryCoffin Oh, they do give access to the full XSAVE?
 
@Darkrifts CRPG?
 
PSG will mess up your day if you close it before a multiple of 100. It asks you explicitly every 100 if you wanna stop
@Aaron3468 Nope
 
@Mysticial Not at all sure they support ZMM (yet, anyway).
 
I was gonna say, any instruction on ymm registers will automatically zero out the rest of the register. So if the user code is using zmm, they'll be fucked if the driver only saves and restores the bottom 256-bits since any ymm instruction will clobber the top 256 as well.
 
PopupSimGame (popup ads, but actually ends at one point) and Minimalist Town
Minimalist isn't micromanagement nor macromanagement, it's unamanagement, because you only manage one thing :P
 
user4710450
3:48 AM
@Darkrifts I am crazy about this game!
 
user4710450
It teaches you how to manage your money :P
 
Yes, buy everything and it'll work out
I am a master at bad things :D
 
user4710450
Do you have a Github profile?
 
Yes, but nothing on it
Should I make something to just jot down bad ideas?
 
user4710450
I just want to follow you
 
3:50 AM
github.com/Darkrifts probably the right link
 
user4710450
Thanks. Quite empty. no following. no follower
 
do I mention the potential odr-violations caused by using SCOPE_EXIT in an inline function becuase it contains the counter macro
 
user4710450
@Darkrifts Now you have a follower . lol
 
Well, time to put junk in there
 
@Mysticial Yeah, I'm not sure how they'll handle that. Problem is the driver not only has to make the call to save/restore regs, but it has to supply the space for the storage, so for ZMM, they'll need to double the size (and AFAIK, Microsoft didn't even supply a constant for the size of a register, so most drivers that use YMM regs will probably need at least a little rewriting to double the save space).
 
user4710450
3:53 AM
@Darkrifts You could push your games there
 
Probably
I'll look into github some more
 
user4710450
Version control is the best project management too I have ever seen.
 
user4710450
Consider using git with your projects
 
Idea++
 
user4710450
I myself used to think of it as a waste time, but lately I have seen how useful it could be
 
3:55 AM
Not a waste of time using it, but a waste of time for people looking at my stuff lel
 
user4710450
@Darkrifts lol
 
How does folder/branch/forking work?
 
user4710450
branch is used like this:
You put your main project in the master branch
Put the test units in test branch and so on
 
user4710450
@Darkrifts A virtue about git is that it encourages team work
 
How do I do something akin to a folder? I've seen it done, but idk how lel
 
3:58 AM
@Darkrifts You typically start a branch to create a new feature, then merge with mainline when that feature is (at least reasonably) complete.
@Ehsan Umm...sorry, but no. Not a good use of branching (at least IMO).
 
user4710450
@Darkrifts Using the Github UI itself or git?
 
Github.com
 
user4710450
With Github UI its a bit tricky but possible
 

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