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3:00 AM
I recommend OReilly as a publisher that does a good job with that
 
i don't really want to learn 10 frameworks now
i juts want to see a comparison how things are done there.
 
then why are you doing this "survey"?
what languages do you program in?
 
php primarily
 
any others?
 
uhm... sure
from js to prolog, there are lots, why?
 
3:01 AM
do you do MVC? Forms? Procedural? Functional?
 
certainly, i'll add MVC too
i just started.
 
You're missing something
 
what?
 
The difference between MVC and Forms is how you structure things, but the flow is the same
 
that's fine.
i understand that.
 
3:02 AM
I mean, we can talk about the radicality of certain things compared to tradition, but the flow is gonna be the same on every platform
 
but the client does not, you made web software for clients, right?
 
sure
and guess what
 
dude says "i want contact form here"
 
every single client is different
 
well, sure, but they rarely give you a task on the MVC level, they just want a business goal achieved.
do you create model and controller when you are asked to make a contact form?
that's what I'm trying to find out.
 
3:04 AM
so I'm still not sure what you want to figure out, but asking a lot of good programmers to fill that survey out and be detailed and give you good information is not likely to lead to the success you want.
and you can't ask shitty programmers to fill it out
 
i don't need to be detailed.
 
@romaninsh that's your job as a programmer. If the whole app is MVC, yes. If it's not, probably not.
@romaninsh but you're asking for details.
 
shitty programmers are part of the equation,
 
@romaninsh garbage in, garbage out.
 
hm. alright.
 
3:05 AM
if you want good information, you have to start with good programmers
if you want bad information, you start with bad programmers
 
so what you are saying - if you don't know if the app will use MVC or not - your approach to build contact form would be different
 
are you trying to learn how to estimate?
@romaninsh sure.
 
there are no thing such as bad information. I want different people experience. Some developers are less experienced, that does not mean their opinion does not matter.
 
@romaninsh but it does mean they don't know all the information
 
no, i don't want to learn to estimate :) i want to see which framework is efficient in doing things and which is not.
 
3:07 AM
have you ever heard of the Dunning Kruger effect?
 
i haven't
 
@romaninsh all frameworks are inefficient somewhere
I suggest you drop everything and go learn Ruby on Rails
you will feel a lot more productive
Why did you learn PHP?
 
so
if i want to make a contact form on ruby on rails
what steps you perform
like 1) put html into file X
2) write submission handler
 
not necessarily
 
thing is
i know couple frameworks
other frameworks i don't know
 
3:09 AM
I really suggest you go learn RoR
You will be very very happy
 
if i go and compare framework i know with the framework i don't know, i spend a lot of time trying to pull information and then it turns out i didn't use the most up to date documentation or referred to some old practices or the person who provided instruction was a moron
at the end i have no clear comparison and it's difficult to decide.
haha, you're funny.
 
the best thing to do is to get some mentors
I am starting such a group locally
 
ok, let me put it this way.
i have 12 years of professional php experience.
and during that time i have seen quite a lot of things, approaches, and different things happen.
you sending me to learn RoR is funny :)
 
and?
 
however even in 12 years i can't know any possible framework or technique.
i have developed a set of my own techniques of doing things
 
3:13 AM
I believe you mean "every"
 
i want to test my beliefs by looking at how other frameworks do it.
 
@romaninsh that's called "experience"
The best thing to do is to go outside your realm of comfort
go learn a new language
the proof is in the pudding, I am learning nodejs
 
i can't
 
why? because it's about as far from c# as I can get without going to something lisplike
 
i know how they work
 
3:14 AM
Why can't you?
 
for eaxamye
take symfony
 
You know how what works?
 
i've gone through tutorials and i assume official tutorials is good.
and to me it seems so damn overcomplicated and inefficient.
 
tutorials SUCK
 
and even if i read source code.
 
3:15 AM
I never use tutorials except as training documentation for junior devs
 
i look how things are implemented and they suck too.
 
lol, everybody writes shite code, don't you know that?
 
so back to the subject
 
the only code that's marginally passable is your own
all other code is absolute rubbish
 
@drachenstern if you need to mash up a quick contact form for a project landing page.
what do you do?
 
3:16 AM
@romaninsh then I would code it like all the other pages on that site
and if this was a brand new page on a brand new site and it was the first page
 
would you draw a HTML and put a php handler to fetch post data and feed it into mail()
 
then I would copy some old code and generate some template for the page layout and I would reuse things I already had
@romaninsh no, I would stuff it in a db
never feed it into mail directly
 
what if there is no db?
not installed or you don't know access yet.
 
there is always a mechanism to persist records
an XML file is a database, if that is how you look at it
 
client asks you to email contents that's it.
 
3:18 AM
then I would open gmail on their computer
 
i don't get it why people try to complicate things.
 
I don't get why people require complication to do simple things
if they want an email system for their clients to use, they damned sure want it logged.
 
look, 4 fields on a only page on the site on the server. no database, fill out form, it goes into mail.
 
If they want an email system for their own use, they damned sure ought to use their regular email system
 
it's not email, it's just a contact form.
 
3:19 AM
@romaninsh look, gmail
@romaninsh does it go over php's mailer?
does it get processed by sendmail?
does it have the same basic fields as gmail?
 
nope.
 
then it's effing GMAIL
 
you od'nt need to know email for contact form.
 
s/gmail/outlook/g
 
for gmail you need.
 
3:20 AM
s/gmail/aol/g
s/gmail/whatever/g
 
:) don't sed me.
 
"dear developer, how much would it cost for you to develop a simple landing page with 3 fields where user enter "email" , "name" and "comment" fields. I would like to receive all submissions to my mailbox"
 
if I want people to contact me, I want them to send me an email from their client
I don't like "contact us" forms and I encourage people to abandon them.
The only ones I've ever seen were ALWAYS persisted to a database. ALWAYS.
 
"dear developer, i was asking for you to build a contact form, not about your opinion if forms sucks or not or how you are using your email address"
 
3:22 AM
@romaninsh <a href="mailto:johndoe@example.com">Email us!</a> that'll be 50 quid thanks
 
sounds like you have a lazy job :)
haha
 
@romaninsh see, I get to pick my clients.
 
where are 3 fields,
 
@romaninsh no, I just don't design websites for clients. I do enterprise work.
 
oh boy...
 
3:23 AM
yeah
I shouldn't call it that.
There's only three primary devs on our team, and I'm the most advanced (but not the most senior, he has other duties on his plate)
 
what i don't get it
are you trying to specifically not answer me out of some sort of stubbornness or fun or am i really an idiot?
 
but we sell internal-use-only software that runs like a Software As An Appliance on hardware they provide
@romaninsh I don't know what I'm not answering.
Spell it out for me. Tell me what I'm ignoring.
 
so are you saying you are so into your enterprise work that you can't code a contact form?
 
No, that's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying I won't write shitty code just because someone asks for it
 
my question was, how a motivated developer should proceed when he's asked to build a contact form.
 
3:25 AM
I'm saying I have ethics, and those involve "don't write shitty code because the user doesn't know what they're asking for"
 
just because you do not agree with the reason, does not make it a shitty code.
 
A motivated developer should take an interest in what he's writing.
@romaninsh see, I disagree.
 
if the results wouldn't be emailed but stored into database, would that make code less shitty?
 
@romaninsh marginally
for conditions where the margin is so slim as to make it almost not worth it.
 
actually
i agree with you.
it shouldn't be up to client if it's email or database record
they shouldn't decide on technical implementation, they just need to say
"collect information from users"
 
3:27 AM
Ayeyup
 
then you can use xml storage or whatever.
that's a valid point, i should update my question.
so if you are faced with a task, where you need to collect information from a user in a stand-alone application and your code snippets are unavailable, how would you do it?
would this be a right way to asking it then?
 
I don't write code on demand. My code snippets are always available.
 
ha-ha-ha
 
Anyone who writes code on demand deserves to suffer a bad fate.
 
you do know about DRY, right?
 
3:29 AM
of course
 
and copying snippets is not duplication?
 
nope
 
would you happen to have a snippet for this task?
'hey what's your name and what's your favorite ice-cream flavor'
 
no, because that's not the code I normally write
do you have a snippet for tht?
have you ever written some code for that?
 
i have no snippets at all.
sure
 
3:31 AM
especially often enough to have a snippet for it in the first place?
 
i don't have any snippets at all.
 
That's a shame
 
i don't nee them.
 
omg, seriously?
 
yeah
 
3:32 AM
that's how most of the more successful people write code
 
thanks.
 
the ones who say "I don't need code snippets" often complain that they can't learn new languages ...
 
I'm careful to use an efficient underlying technology, which does not make me repeat myself.
that's true ;)
 
even tho I use frameworks that do the work for me, I still write the same basic code all the time
if (condition) { dothing();} else {dootherthing();}
those things can be templated in your IDE as snippets
 
:) i type them faster than i can find them.
 
3:35 AM
some of my most frequently used templates are for querying my database, or code header blocks
 
and that's not the kind of snippet i mean, i'd say snippet is at least 3 lines of code.
 
things that are lengthy but need to be consistent
@romaninsh it was purposefully simple
 
i have script to fix my code headers.
 
I just insert a snippet to fix mine
 
well, fair enough.
what about that database querying?
is that really needs to be a snippet?
 
3:36 AM
what about it?
I'm not on that computer, so I can't share it with you :p
 
can you make a function and call it or something?
 
yeah, some of them are like 50 lines
nah, cos I don't need it to be a stored procedure
 
would ORM help you simplify them?
 
I do need to run it at most twice a month, but it's not worthy of being a stored procedure. It is not something that needs to be stored with my production system.
god no.
our system would actually be highly less efficient with an ORM
 
why?
 
3:37 AM
but you have to remember, we serve a specific vertical market
 
sounds like a bad ORM
 
our code interfaces with lots of other databases to do data aggregation and manipulation, and that work is done via joins and the like. It's all set-based work.
 
well, yeah, i am in more general-purpose, fast-paced software development, mostly SaaS software.
 
So we NEED to stay in SQL for most of our work.
So an ORM does us no good.
You sound like you develop software for small clients, with the questions you're asking.
 
that was purposefully simple
 
3:39 AM
SaaS vendors typically write the software once and all the clients get the benefit. Those aren't the things you're saying.
@romaninsh I see what you did there
 
thing with saas, you get an entrepreneur with 50k euro fund which they want to spend for a fully-featured software.
we deliver that software in 3 months.
pays well ;)
 
wait what?
I'm missing something that you're saying
SaaS vendors tend to sell the same software to everyone
 
suppose you have an idea for web venture
 
not write custom software per client.
@romaninsh actually I do.
 
saas sell service, not software.
 
3:41 AM
and I'm self-funding and I'm doing all the work.
@romaninsh I don't know if you know this, but it's the software that is the service.
 
touché
 
I actually gave up on writing code tonight to talk to you
and in about 45 minutes I'm going to be sleeping
 
if you self-fund it, that's another story, but often people with no development skills have good idea, and they can get other people to support them by funding. Then they are looking for vendor.
that's where we come in. except that we write full set of business features quicker, than you probably do.
 
I'm only self-funding because it's a passion and a labor of love
I'm doing mine at night
in my spare time, as I can afford to.
in my day job I write C# software for enterprisey stuff, and I setup lots of things, and I do troubleshooting
whatever is needed
 
i get the picture :)
what is that passion about?
 
3:45 AM
image archival and backup, and manipulation, and albums, and social networking, and making it SIMPLE for the users.
one of my "target users" is my mom.
she is NOT technical. She barely knows how to start Excel.
 
sounds like iPhoto.
 
one step more
 
but yeah, could be fun to put some fancy features in.
 
(or two or three)
 
iPhoto lacks social features.
and is that web based?
 
3:46 AM
and does it do multiple computer seamless and automated image backup?
mine is web based, yes
I don't think iPhoto is
 
it's desktop software.
then average mom owns less than 2 computer.s..
do you know of a good backup solution?
of servers
for
how are you backing photos up?
 
see, I knew you were a smart cookie
my mom owns two laptops and a desktop
one laptop is nearly dead and she won't use the new one (go figure)
the desktop is just kind of there
guess which has more hard drive for her
 
my mom only has laptop and desktop... :)
 
my mom should only have the laptop
the backup solution for the server is redundancy and off-site
 
what software are you using?
 
3:50 AM
It would take a lot more than a half hour conversation on chat for me to explain everything
 
dervish , rsync, or something else?
 
suffice to say I'm writing 90% of the code myself (the application code) to start, and when it is viable I'll get others to come on board and help
@romaninsh something akin to rsync, yes
 
kay.
 
so I see, you're wondering how I'm going to manage my servers directly, and I'm not
that's an implementation detail
 
I'm curios since someone is looking to invest into building a simple backup solution.
someone i know.
 
3:51 AM
I'm way more worried about the logic of my platform and how everything works.
"a simple backup solution" would be called "Carbonite"
mine is way more complex than what they do, so I am building not buying.
but in the case of "Dervish vs rsync vs others" I am going to buy not build.
 
that runs on server too?
 
wtf?
 
"carbonate"
i use crash plan for backing up my computer to the server.
 
yes, carbonite will run on the server, I guess. I don't know, I don't have to worry about backing up servers.
 
"crash plan"
 
3:53 AM
I get to hire people to do that
 
hm ok.
 
one thing you haven't learned yet apparently is to pick your battles and to draw your lines
buy when it's the right thing to do
 
so i'd be interested to see your software ;)
 
build when it's the right thing to do
@romaninsh when it's ready I'm sure I will pimp the hell out of it to everyone. I may even get banned for a short time ;)
 
you intend to open source it?
 
3:54 AM
Nope
I intend to sell it SaaS
 
then yes
i'd be happy to leave my email in your announcement list
 
and for now, I want to get a little bit of time in tonight writing code, so I'm going to bid you adieu
 
i'll let you to it.
 
Until the morrow then.
 
cheers.
 
3:55 AM
It's been nice talking to you tonight
 
and thanks for feedback.
 
Sure.
 
i'll go learn RoR
 
4:40 AM
lol
please dont
there are other frameworks in ruby too , @romaninsh
ones that are not so fundamentally flawed
 
4:59 AM
hi all
 
hello all
can you please help me in this "Can't connect to local MySQL server through socket '/var/lib/mysql/mysql.sock'"? when am trying to connect by mysql_connect();
 
Tek
5:14 AM
Usually that means mysql isn't started on the web server
so mysql is off
 
does anyone have any idea about adding calendar events to Exchange server with php?
 
@Gordon why would I want anybody to access my properties?
 
RPM
5:40 AM
@test
I had the same problem
it has to deal with user permissions
are u using query browser? I hope
it made it easier for me to figure it out
 
6:28 AM
@KamilTomšík because it's nice to touch your private members? :D
 
@Gordon not my cup of tea - sorry, no getters for you (from me) ;)
 
@KamilTomšík ;)
 
shamefully, a lot of php developers write getters just because they saw it in java...
 
actually that is a horrendous article. When I pinged that to you I hadnt read it yet and assumed it would be about Tell don ask, which it is obviously not. Instead it suggests the worst thing to do, e.g. using magic accessors
 
a-ha ;)
 
6:34 AM
Morning @KamilTomšík, @Gordon
Here's a small question. Consider the code:
$events=new keEvents();
$events->load();

foreach($events->rows as $event){ ...
 
@Gordon just to be clear - when I was talking about tell don't ask I really had east-oriented programming in my mind (I've just didn't know) - tell-dont-ask is vague term (because of fowlers and pragprog articles), east-oriented is very simple - no returns - at all.
 
$events is autodocumented, but how would I do it with $event?
I usually do $event=new keEvent(); before loading events, but it's a hack.
 
@ChristianSciberras hi, what's the problem, I don't get it...
 
@KamilTomšík - Autocompletion.
 
@ChristianSciberras is it worth?
 
6:37 AM
Consider keEvents has some PHPDoc. My IDE suggests autocompletion because it knows $events contains a keEvents instance.
But since ->rows returns an array, it can't know what the array contains and it can't figure out that $event is a keEvent instance, unless I tell it so by creating a new empty event.
@KamilTomšík - I don't know, worth what? It certainly helps to know what properties and methods $event has.
 
@ChristianSciberras if you really want it - use continuation passing style with interfaces - like:

$events->do(function(Event $e){
  $e->doWhatever();
});
 
Hmm, cool approach.
 
@ChristianSciberras worth of autocompletion - especially when you have to use interfaces, which... I don't like
@ChristianSciberras except the fact you need interfaces :-P
 
How do interfaces have to do with this?
 
@ChristianSciberras well, you don't want to restrict yourself to only one class, do you?
 
6:40 AM
I'm leaving the ->rows approach as is for now, compatibility, but I'll implement this most definitely.
 
@ChristianSciberras feel free to join east-oriented camp :-P
@ChristianSciberras you can also use this (for compatibility):

array_walk($events->rows, function(Event $e){
  $e->doWhatever();
});
@ChristianSciberras or array_map, if you don't want to change values.
 
@KamilTomšík If I understand what you meant by interface, function(IEvent $e) can't work?
 
@ChristianSciberras Kamil doesnt believe in Interfaces
 
@ChristianSciberras you'll just have to introduce interface for every class... that's all... or you can use classes and when you'll need multiple classes, you'll just rename it to InterfaceBase or something like that and introduce Interface.
 
Well, since you can't instantiate an interface, I don't see this an issue. Right?
 
6:49 AM
(Event == class) function(Event $e){}
(Event == interface, BaseEvent == class) function(Event $e){}
 
first one is when you don't need multiple events. And when you need KeyboardEvent, MouseEvent, WhateverEvent (all implementing Event interface), you can simply rename Event to BaseEvent and create Event interface
but you know - it just sucks - I don't want to do it and don't even want IDE to do it for me...
 
Well, actually, by "event" I meant "a real life event, with a date, location etc".
But I get what you mean :)
 
you can achieve same thing using convention - function($anEvent){}, IDE can then look for all *Event classes and try to help you.
and this is IMHO what smalltalk already does.
which is cool, because it's not just a name of parameter, it also says something about its type.
 
As someone used to say, that sounds too magical. IMHO :)
 
6:56 AM
@ChristianSciberras it's not more magical than __construct ;)
 
But you shouldn't be doing your own __FuncName(), ever.
Whereas determining a variable type by its name, is kind of going too far.
 
@ChristianSciberras I don't I just wanted to say, that this kind of convention is not less harder to learn than learning concept of contructors or references.
 
But I'm not talking about learning, I'm talking about how much sense it does in this implementation.
 
@ChristianSciberras and you know - if you don't follow that rule - nothing will go wrong - you'll just lose autocompletion
 
ie, that it doesn't make sense to make this work with PHP.
 

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