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9:08 AM
34 messages moved from GMTs
 
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11:09 AM
the tidyverse argument is getting tedious, and that didn't really seem to be the point of Gavin
 
@Axeman I think Gavin's main point was about behavior, not about the tidyverse discussion
 
11:53 AM
@Axeman yeah, I agree. If you referring to me, my beef was mainly against posting stuff on Twitter which (IMO) shouldn't be there. If you have an issue with someone, you should solve it on a personal level instead of crucifying him publicly among single minded mob
but, as always, I've got carried away. Good thing I'm not on Twitter
 
12:20 PM
@DavidArenburg Not just you, of course :) . I don't have a problem with your critique of the tidyverse, I just think that it is missing Gavin's point. It seems to me he is trying to flag up what he thinks is a more systemic behavioral problem, not settle some one-on-one beef or silence tidyverse opposers. There have been more voices on twitter saying that they think SO can show toxicity. I don't know to what extent he is right, because I don't use that room (or have write access).
 
 
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2:47 PM
2 messages moved from JavaScript
 
@DavidArenburg I'm not sure quite what your issue is, but i) this has nothing to do with the merits or otherwise of the Tidyverse, ii) it has everything to do with people being subjected to constant abuse/snark just for using or developing a particular set of tools, iii) most importantly I take issue with behaviour and language that is insulting to people in the community and underrepresented groups in particular.
With regard to the latter @DavidArenburg, comments like are just disgusting. Are you incapable of coming up with an insult that doesn't disparage another gender? chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/39989544#39989544
@Cath Thanks. I doubt I'll be hanging here much, especially given the transcript I was just reading over.
 
@GavinSimpson heh, are you serious about the gender thing?
Does everything with you have to be some how related to some type of discrimination?
go on and post in on Twitter: "David doesn't like little girls!"
 
@DavidArenburg Yes I am you idiot. If you can't see that what you said is a problem, then we can just stop this conversation right here.
 
Then hadley will post "Thanks Gavin"
 
@DavidArenburg Too late
 
2:53 PM
@GavinSimpson yes, we should indeed
 
@GavinSimpson welcome, but pfff I was really hoping this buzz would stay out of GMTs, already enough medium is involved in this topic.
 
@DavidArenburg He thanked me for raising an issue that has affected him and many of his colleagues. He wasn't thanking me for mu support, or otherwise, of the tidyverse
 
<sigh>
 
Please get a private room skype or whatever alternative.
 
@zx8754 It might be helpful then not to enable toxic behaviour
 
2:55 PM
I am not going to get involved, but prefer to be this topic closed here, now.
Is this too much to ask?
 
@zx8754 You're free to kick me out, but don't expect me to be happy with this room providing a venue for people to disparage me.
 
"person" not people, get in touch with them and carry on discussion.
 
@zx8754 Did you say as much when David and Frank were "discussing" this earlier?
 
I totally agree with @zx8754. I don't think GMTs is a right place to continue such an argument. (and, totally out of previously mentionned argument, which I'm only slightly aware of, I don't find that very constructive to come and call people "idiot")
 
@Cath I don't think it is very constructive to liken anyone's behaviour to that of a "little girl" in a negative way.
 
2:58 PM
oh common, that's just redicilous
the little girls protectors is in the house
I have 3 little girls of my own at home. Believe me, they are not being descriminated
 
@GavinSimpson agreed, but anyway, GMTs is not the place for a duel
 
I can't believe a grown up person can talk like that...
 
@DavidArenburg let's drop this topic.
 
@DavidArenburg anyway, don't go and say you actually like little girls, it might just get you in an even less comfortable situation ;-p (sorry, just trying to lighten things...)
 
@Cath ok, I don't like my little girls. And their rights are fully reserved. And I never call them "little girls"
 
3:01 PM
@DavidArenburg I guess yours are ok, just "in general" could be a problem ;-)
I better call my girl "big girl" or she would tear my eyes out :-S
 
ok, I gtg ttyl
 
3:27 PM
It's not just the R chat room... *sigh* https://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/39989544#39989544 #rstats
 
@DavidArenburg eh, i agree with Gavin on that point, actually (re the insult reinforcing negative gender stereotypes and that i should have said something to the effect of "not cool" at the time), though i have trouble believing that without that comment he wouldn't have been here fishing for something else to call out
 
@Frank seriously?
 
I could understand if I would say something about women in general, but a "little girl" is just a form of speach
first time in my life I meet someone that interprets it as a gender related insult
I guess it's a cultural thing or something
 
@DavidArenburg yeah, it's similar to the argument against, eg, eminem for using "faggot" as a generic insult. sure, it has some history as such, but it's also gratuitously insulting to a group that suffers discrimination. anyway, i don't expect to convince you and have no interest in condemning you, much less asking others to, just saying i see that side and agree with it, even if my actions don't exactly meet my own standards
yeah, could be cultural
 
3:31 PM
For instance, if I call someone "cry baby", should I be worried that't I'm insulting babies world wide?
 
taken to the extreme, it ends up really constraining what you can say. every word has a history after all
 
@Frank welp, "faggot" is no where near "little girl", common
 
@DavidArenburg above twit is exactly that.
 
I would never ever call someone that
 
@DavidArenburg yeah, it's a slippery slope after you disallow certain words to extending it to others. in fact, i have never in my life heard "little girl" criticized on these grounds
 
3:33 PM
@Frank my point exactly, just ridiculous.
 
and the entrepreneurs among us tend to take it too far, eager to say "i was the first to identify this as 'problematic'"
 
that's just attention seeking
 
@DavidArenburg well, in this case, maybe fishing, but that doesn't mean i find his conclusion wrong here
 
@Frank You make no sense whatsoever in your efforts to defend an indefensible position.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel which?
 
3:35 PM
The first law of holes, or the law of holes, is an adage which states that "if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging". Digging a hole makes it deeper and therefore harder to get back out, which is used as a metaphor that when in an untenable position, it is best to stop carrying on and exacerbating the situation. == Attribution == The adage has been attributed to a number of sources. It appeared in print on page six of The Washington Post dated October 25, 1911, in the form: "Nor would a wise man, seeing that he was in a hole, go to work and blindly dig it deeper..." In The Bankers Magazine...
 
@DirkEddelbuettel i guess you would say it's indefensible for me to say that gender stereotyped insults are a problem? on the other hand Gavin would say it's indefensible not to call it out. just calling something (or someone) indefensible, is not really a constructive way to proceed...
 
@Frank You equated a certified-hate-crime word with a simple description used to describe how MyVeryBestFriend acts like some friend of my by now-late-teenage daughters did when they were a third their age.
 
and by "someone" i mean to reference the not-so-veiled attacks recently made on a certain room owner
 
@Frank I think the more objectionable part of @DavidArenburg comment is the ad-hominem nature, but since @GavinSimpson himself hasn't always refrained from those (I'll admit, usually after being goaded into them), I'm not too concerned. I do see some of what @Frank is saying re gender stereotypes, but it does seem on the more minor side of things.
 
@Frank As I said, you make sense, made no sense earlier, and will still not make sense even if you keep posting 15 times a minute. But I said what I had to say.
 
3:39 PM
@DirkEddelbuettel at one point it was not a "certified-hate-crime word". i did not equate it, i said it was similar, in the sense that the argument against it is similar. if it's relative extremity triggered you, i mean, maybe i should have looked for a better example, but that doesn't mean you cannot understand what i'm saying, i expect
@BrodieG yeah, i took more issue with the ad-hominem part as well, didn't even think about the gender part until Gavin made a thing of it
 
@DavidArenburg thanks... I guess... ;-)
looks like GMTs is R's twin today...
 
@Frank I didn't mind the ad hominen, I took exception to the gender bias.
 
@DirkEddelbuettel not a problem. anyway, i was replying because i was asked questions by David. and not every comment of mine was in defense of my agreement with Gavin; most were just comments. like i said, i wasn't really expecting to convince David or anyone else of that position
 
@DavidArenburg You're equating my actions (complaining about something) with those of a "little girl". Tech is full of these gender tropes and in equating actions you personally don't agree with with those of a particular gender you are, inadvertently or otherwise, making a comment about that gender.
@BrodieG I'm not aware of my engaging in ad hominen, but if you can point to specific instances I will be happy to re-evaluate.
 
@GavinSimpson @DirkEddelbuettel @DavidArenburg Anyone else interested you all probably have access to twitter and R chat room, please move discussion there.
 
3:49 PM
@Frank Only reason I came here was because of a Twitter user replying to Joran and I that the GMT room had seen an uptick in activity.
 
yeah, well, I will, for once, try to be mature and not respond- will see how that goes
 
in R, Sep 26 at 16:40, by Gavin Simpson
@DirkEddelbuettel You really are an insufferable pillock Dirk
This next one is not exactly ad-hominem, but also not exactly civilized discourse:
in R, Sep 26 at 17:03, by Gavin Simpson
@Frank "discourteous" to both his users & other package developers? WTF! Show me where Hadley held a gun to this user's head and said run your tibble through eha? Hadley and co aren't responsible for users doing silly things. This is my problem with some people here; disagreeing about design decisions is one thing, attacking them is quite another. Discourteous, my arse!
 
This is pathetic, now we are getting flags for "little girl", while it is already posted on Twitter as image for all to see.
 
Thanks @BrodieG, now let's see who posts this on Tweeter. No one? Thought so.
 
3:54 PM
@zx8754 yeah, nothing stopping this from moving elsewhere. can visit a person's chat profile; click "start a new room with this user"; let others visit if they want (or go off-SO instead)
 
@BrodieG Fair enough - I almost added "one that doesn't involve Dirk" - For the record that was after some considerable amount of baiting from Dirk, baiting that he continues still.
 
@Axeman Strongly agree.
 
@Axeman couldn't agree more
 
@GavinSimpson Yes. I also have my own ad-hominem joke-that-fell-flat right after that one.
@GavinSimpson But hopefully you understand why I don't get too bothered when people get a bit personal with you in particular.
 
@GavinSimpson that twitter user was me
 
3:57 PM
@BrodieG I apologised immediately once you voiced concern about my use of "arse".
@BrodieG I have no problem with anyone getting personal with me either. That's not what i was objecting to.
 
@GavinSimpson I personally don't mind, just trying to point out that your rhetoric gets heated.
 
@Jaap um, thanks?
 
@Frank nope :-(
 
@BrodieG please don't equate that with the other thing as if they are comparable
 
@Axeman Amen and thanks :-)
 
4:08 PM
o_O
 
@Tensibai lol
 
@Tensibai Hi Tens, quite the day..
 
hopefully late enough to not put the room on timeout :)
Not wishing to take action on my own, but I'm in favor of moving this whole talk to trashroom and cleaning the starboard
 
I was close to suggesting the same actually
 
4:14 PM
@Natty tp
 
@BrodieG I'd say trash it all, anyone interested can dig in there.
 
4:25 PM
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4:51 PM
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@Queen k
 
 
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