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11:02 AM
You control for such effects by giving an inert drug (aka a placebo) to some of the subjects. Those subjects will be subject only to the experimental conditions, not to the drug, so you can estimate how much of the effect you can attribute to the drug and how much you attribute to the experimental conditions.
It's not something that "works". It's just (quantified) experimental error.
 
But it has to be relative to a group without treatment
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I thought "The placebo effect works." is backed by science.
Unlike, you know. Imposters :)
Maybe I'm about to learn yet another thing?
 
@sehe If by that you mean "experiments have experimental error", then yes.
@PatrickM'Bongo That's how you quantify the error, yes.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Mmm. I very much thought there have been so many well-controlled studies on the subject that there wasn't room for that kind of egregious mistake
 
I think the common understanding is that taking placebo triggers a healing process which is not caused by the placebo itself, but by the state of mind induced
 
11:05 AM
Funny case in point is the alcohol lobby. The ubiquitous "1 or two glasses of alcoholic bevs. is very healthy and leads to longer lifetime" - turns out to be down to selection bias these days.
The myth has been propagated for decades before being challenged properly, apparently (I believe ~2 years ago).
 
@AndyProwl Yes, and that's usually just backed by confirmation bias.
People overreporting or underreporting effects.
 
However, on the Placebo-effect I was convinced the number of skeptics has been so (damn) high that counter studies must have (right?) been conducted numerous times
 
You can test this by having three groups: treatment, placebo, no-treatment.
 
What if way more people in the placebo group heal than in the no-treatment group?
 
Objective studies (i.e. where the results are actual measurements, like say, glucose levels) don't show any magical placebo effects.
Only studies where the measurements are subjective (i.e. reported by the subjects, like pain levels) show significant effects that can be attributed to the placebo (non-)drug.
@AndyProwl Then yes, there's something at work. But that doesn't actually happen.
 
11:11 AM
I see
 
I don't always take placebœ, but when I do, I buy them off the Harmacist
 
@PatrickM'Bongo That's a small observational study.
 
> Placebo effect in death: "It might not please you, but it sure will please me" - the Wife
 
"The operative components of the placebo effect remain unknown" is also a big red flag.
 
11:14 AM
(needs a little bit of etymological background on "placebo" there)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's homophathic
 
@sehe :)
 
. @troyhunt @Strawberrynet It's not a bug! It's a belief system ("Can't admit we're wrong now, because that opens us up for lawsuits")
These suckers suck.
 
@AndyProwl Well, that does happen when "healing" means reducing pain levels or some such subjective criteria.
 
n = 24 ...?
Huh.
Well, then again, you can't necessarily just go get 500 people. You have to handle lower numbers and crap.
 
11:18 AM
Also important to keep in mind is that if something is as effective as placebo (like say, acupuncture) it literally means it doesn't work.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz it was linked here earlier
by @fredoverflow
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes so you need three groups
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hmm, I'm wondering if "reducing pain levels" doesn't have an objective component
> A recent fMRI study has shown that a placebo can reduce pain-related neural activity in the spinal cord, indicating that placebo effects can extend beyond the brain.
(that's from the Wiki page)
 
@AndyProwl Not in the vast majority of studies, no. It's always subjective reporting.
 
11:28 AM
it's like detox shit and ppl feeling better, healthier and shit
 
Ell
@AndyProwl that's p interesting
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Dunno, I'm reading the Wiki page and it seems Hróbjartsson and Gøtzsche is not the end of the story
 
There's a relationship between anxiety and pain, and the expectation of treatment works to reduce your anxiety.
 
I mean there's studies that say something and studies that say the opposite
 
@AndyProwl I'd play the comprehensiveness card.
 
11:33 AM
> Hróbjartsson and Gøtzsche's conclusion has been criticised on several grounds
I don't know, really
I'm afraid it's again a matter of what you want to believe
Not you I mean
In general
 
Ell
"one"
 
Yeah
It might be guided by educated and rational guesses, but it's a gut feeling
 
@AndyProwl Not really. There's no purported mechanism (other than the anxiety-reducing effects).
 
uguu, uni time soon
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes This part seems to say something
 
11:35 AM
Claiming that the effects are not just experimental error is buying into magic.
@AndyProwl Study cited for "Where studies are made of placebos in which people think they are receiving actual treatment (rather than merely its possibility) the placebo effect has been observed" ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12406519
Pain treatments.
The other study linked has no abstract.
 
I dunno, I'm again in front of pages and pages of stuff to read in order to prove or disprove something. It's not manageable for me
 
> These findings and various other analyses of mortality in the clofibrate and placebo groups of the project show the serious difficulty, if not impossibility, of evaluating treatment efficacy in subgroups determined by patient responses (e.g., adherence or cholesterol change) to the treatment protocol after randomization.
@AndyProwl You don't have to read anything. I explained what is wrong with it.
@PatrickM'Bongo That literally says that it's impossible to measure stuff.
It highlights problems with experimental conditions.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You linked to another study
 
11:40 AM
@AndyProwl It's cited in the part you linked, and the title alone is enough.
It's a study on analgesics (painkillers)
 
I was probably referring to another part
 
@AndyProwl It's the part where it cites stuff that contradicts Hróbjartsson and Gøtzsche's meta-analyses.
 
And now in order to form an educated opinion I have to go and read medical stuff
or just trust you
but then why not trust Patrick
 
Fair enough.
 
and pretty much same is with drinking chlorine and homeopathy and vegan diet
I have an educated gut feeling and some common sense and I choose what to believe
but it's still some sort of belief - cause I don't actually know
 
11:46 AM
@AndyProwl But all those effects are explainable by the anxiety-reducing effects of the expectation of treatment.
 
In the end it's all still controlled by the illuminati
 
That's the only mechanism of action that is ever proposed.
So if by "the placebo effect works" people mean "reducing anxiety reduces pain, improves your blood pressure, and such", then yes.
Otherwise it's magic.
 
> Vim now ships with a defaults.vim file which, when the user has no vimrc,
> enables some options that have historically been disabled by default. This
> is described in more detail at ":help defaults.vim".
:O
 
(Small studies without purported mechanisms of action are easy prey for confirmation bias; correlation is not causation, etc)
 
@Griwes very good
the experts can handle changing options, the newbies will get better defaults
 
11:55 AM
Bit iterators look cool.
 
@milleniumbug Yes. This is what I've been saying since forever, it's not impossible to provide sane default configs without hurting configurability.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The point is how many of these processes caused by the induced state of mind can be triggered, and what are their beneficial effects. Blood pressure is something people take drugs for, and it's not subjective
heart failure for instance is often linked to stress
if something reduces stress by reducing anxiety and/or other relevant physical parameters, reducing heart failure might be a consequence
in that case it's probably fair to say it "works"
there are probably things a state of mind can affect and things it cannot affect
 
@Griwes Revolution
 
@AndyProwl I just apply Occam's razor. Extraordinary claim without extraordinary evidence ("placebos cure stuff, no I don't know why")? Nope, sorry. Simple claim with a reasonable explanation ("placebo effects are just the result of experimental conditions")? Fair enough.
 
@Griwes Conservatism has been the guide. Nobody thought it would hurt configurability. It's just... an editor where Vi compatibility has been a main feature for years
 
11:59 AM
The important thing is that the "just the result of experimental conditions" theory has a lot of explanatory power.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The point is what is "stuff" in "cure stuff". If by "stuff" one means "anything", then I'd laugh
 
@sehe What I mean is that I've heard this argument against providing defaults a lot of times.
Also, it'd not be hard to be vi-compatible when invoked as vi and not when invoked as vim.
 
@AndyProwl He might be a saint, but it's pretty sure he has a drinking problem too
@Griwes That's a silly argument, as there have always been defaults. And very bad defaults too (win32 anyone)
@Griwes Precisely. I was just explaining the heritage that fosters conservatism and ultra slow revolution
 
Sure.
 
@AndyProwl If I had to guess I'd say the overwhelming majority of commonplace uses of "placebo effect" are the laughing kind.
When people say "the placebo effect works" they usually mean magic.
 
12:04 PM
Maybe. I think they mostly mean it triggers a certain state of mind, and what that state of mind is capable of is magic. Not very different, but slightly more understandable
 
I don't see how it's more understandable. I think it's actually worse.
IMO explaining something with woo is worse than not having an explanation.
 
I dunno, I'm not a doctor, but reducing stress and depression does certainly have physical consequences
Which ones exactly, I don't know
 
@AndyProwl Those are relatively well-known.
 
But I'm open to understand that some of those are beneficial
I mean, if someone wants to convince me that placebo effect can cure cancer, then I'd laugh. But if someone wants to convince me I'll catch a cold less often, I'm like... eh... hmm, I dunno, I don't think so really. But I won't laugh
 
Placebo can cure cancer
 
12:07 PM
What's the difference?
Both of those have zero explanation.
 
The difference is there are known links between depression and immunity
if a placebo can trigger a positive state of mind, it might have an effect on my immunity
This is just an educated gut feeling though
How much educated though, I don't even know
 
@AndyProwl The placebo doesn't trigger anything!
It's designed for that.
 
Well, it reduces anxiety, if nothing else
 
If it does something, then it's a treatment.
@AndyProwl No, that's the expectation of treatment.
 
Well, yes, that
But you won't have that expectation without being given the placebo
So it's fair to say the placebo triggers it. Not that particular placebo. The fact of anything being given to you. Another substance would have the same effect of course, since it's a placebo
 
12:10 PM
@AndyProwl You can, if you think "the placebo effect works".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't think that would work
 
Treat yourself with the expectation of treatment.
 
Rationally maybe
But it won't be the same
Is like when you think of something and when that thing really happens
 
@AndyProwl People do that a lot.
 
You'll likely end up feeling completely different from how you expected or predicted or prepare yourself for
@R.MartinhoFernandes But if that was enough, they wouldn't resort to homeopathy
 
nwp
12:12 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes People used copper pans instead of iron/bronze/led ones because they got less sick, with no explanation. They also plowed fields with no explanation other than "It seems to make plants grow better". You don't want to give up these advantages just because you have no explanation for them. And convincing people to plow their fields by saying "because god wants you to work hard" can convince people enough to get you an advantage over other tribes.
 
@AndyProwl They resort to homeopathy because woo-peddlers have things to sell.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That too, but if "think positive" by itself worked, they wouldn't buy stuff
Actually taking that stuff does the change
Not because that stuff has powers
 
@AndyProwl would this help?
 
@AndyProwl No, thinking you're being treated does.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes
 
12:14 PM
@AndyProwl And yet, the pre-visualization might have a direct effect on the end result (just not one intuitively grasped)
 
But you don't really think you're being treated without taking something
whatever that is
 
@AndyProwl Yes, but you can "treat" yourself with the placebo effect. It also works.
 
@AndyProwl How does it not work "because" it's not the same? You're admitting the treatment is not directly causing anything in the first place. Other things might very well work just as well.
 
@sehe Indeed
 
@AndyProwl Depends right. If you trust placebo as a religion (which comes in might handily) there should not be any objection.
 
12:15 PM
But there has to be some "thing", otherwise you won't believe you're being treated
Unless you're like, stupid or something
 
In fact. Many faith healers do the treatment without any physical "medication"
 
@AndyProwl No one has a vested interested in the market for that. It's a matter of exposition.
 
@AndyProwl I think you're underestimating the motivation of people to believe in miracles (or convenient theories)
 
@AndyProwl People are.
 
I mean
 
12:17 PM
@AndyProwl Motivated reasoning is a powerful force.
 
I'd suggest having kids. It's a fantastic experiment to see precisely how that works.
 
I think you're misunderstanding me
 
You don't have to take anything. You just have to believe that something is a treatment. Some people believe that placebos are treatment, even though they're not, by definition.
See Luc's link above.
 
What I'm saying is they are not capable of convincing themselves (believing) they are being treated by just having nothing happen to them
 
Knowing it's a placebo doesn't make the magic go away if you believe that placebos "work".
 
12:18 PM
placeboception
 
Something has to happen - a faith guru, a homeopathic drug, a placebo
 
Or self hypnosis. People can delude themselves (in fact, I don't think anyone else really can)
 
your treatment has already started, courtesy of the Lounge
 
Idontbelieveit.jpg
 
itwillworkanyway.zip
 
12:21 PM
you chose the 'like a dog' option, right?
 
itcantpossiblywork.gcda
 
reference missed
 
@AndyProwl Some people (at least claim to) believe that they can cure anything through their own willpower. The sell courses on how to do that.
 
.gcda is gcov's runtime data thingy
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That is of course laughable and goes back to the "anything" part
 
12:24 PM
@sehe Hypnosis is interesting, because it's hard to devise convincing experiments that wouldn't be unethical.
You can't have a study where you convince people to do something that is entirely against their will; that's highly unethical.
However...
 
anyway all I'm saying is that I'm open to believe that receiving bogus treatment can trigger a state of mind that leads to certain beneficial consequences. I understand the "it's the expectation of treatment" argument, but well, it isn't really a counter-argument. Giving a placebo causes that expectation and that expectation causes the improvements
 
Some organizations are not bound by ethics, like the CIA. They did hypnosis experiments where they hypnotised people to poison someone.
 
Okay, that expectation alone would be enough, but IME it is very rare that people can really honestly grow that expectation without being given any treatment - no matter how bogus
 
The subjects did the poisoning. But when asked to strip naked, they refused (and broke out of the hypnosis state).
Their conclusion was that the subjects assumed the poisoning wasn't real (because who would devise such a horrible experiment, right?), and that you really can't convince someone to do something they don't want via hypnosis.
(It wasn't real, btw; not even they were bad enough to do this)
 
1:05 PM
I am not hypnotizable, or so I would like to think.
And my prejudice is never unconscious! :)
 
@wilx Hypnotisable? You most likely are. But whether you would do something you really don't want to under hypnosis is a different question.
 
nwp
@wilx you were hypnotized into typing that!
 
@nwp NOOOOooo!!!! >_<
^ This person is 37 years old.
 
Since today?
 
@AndyProwl No, not today. In September. I am just saying because I speak/type here as if I was 15. :D
 
1:11 PM
ah, alright
It would have been nice cause you would have been 5/10 and I would have been 10/5
also 10+5=15
 
Do you remember... Twenty first night of september?
 
and 10/5 = 2 and we're two
also same age
 
@AndyProwl :D
 
nwp
@AndyProwl that clearly proofs illuminati
whatever that means
 
also our age is prime so @sehe would be proud of us
 
1:12 PM
Haha.
 
@nwp Illuminati doing C++? I think we're safe
But only for one year
 
just wait till they'll get their hands on modules
 
Any of you champs watching south park s20?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh yeah, just in case you didn’t know there’s a 'no fast travel' difficulty level in the base game
 
nwp
with illuminati C++14 would not have happened... or they just want us to think that
 
1:13 PM
See that ICE that drives you mad on MSVC? Illuminati at work
 
@LucDanton Which game?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes FO4
 
Oh, cool.
I use fast travel occasionally in Skyrim, but only via the traveling merchant dudes.
 
Speaking of the Illuminati, for the Czech reading folks in here: FB page: PÅ™iznání Iluminátů
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes there are in-game, lore-justified modes of transportation still allowed if that’s similar (I don’t know Skyrim at all)
 
1:30 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes needs citation :)
 
@sehe It's somewhere in the declassified MKULTRA documents, IIRC.
 
nwp
I'm getting trolled by MS Word. It refuses to align bulletin points underneath each other.
 
:) I meant the broader claim
Ooh. People still use MS Word
C-S-c, C-S-v best shortcuts
 
1:47 PM
@sehe Oh, that they're not evil?
 
Yesh
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes No, but a few of the people involved in the program did decide to take their new-found talent for hypnotizing people, and apply it toward seducing receptionists, secretaries, and any other attractive young ladies around...
 
lol
(Is that just a joke, or did it also actually happen?)
 
2:05 PM
(I wouldn't be surprised. Power corrupts. People are stupid smart. Well. People are animals)
 
2:32 PM
@nwp Open it is draft mode and see the structure? Use the style eraser to possibly reset the style?
Or write shit in Markdown and convert with Pandoc!
@JerryCoffin Well, since they supposedly cannot be made to do something they do not want or would not do, that sounds cool! :D
 
> Interests: Nibiru cataclysm
 
@LucDanton Nutjobs. Run while you can!
 
@wilx Sort of. The problem is that some of it was apparently on the order of a hypnotic suggestion that "when you look at me, you see your (boyfriend|husband)". OTOH, my girlfriend of the time saw a picture of one of the guys who did this, and commented something to the effect that: "oh, he wouldn't need hypnotism with me."
@R.MartinhoFernandes Actually happened. Half a dozen or so CIA agents were disciplined to varying degrees when it became known.
 
3:00 PM
There's a difference between things you won't do and things you can be coerced/tricked/convinced into doing. Also, people routinely misjudge the scope of the latter.
 
So the latest podcast seems to be a bit of a honeypot for flamewars. lol
@Borgleader
-17
Q: Urgent, someone attend that

YuriI can't assign a variable to a const int val = 10; const int constVal = val

 
That would require time travel. — milleniumbug 6 secs ago
 
3:20 PM
you know what I want in the next 10 years?
accurate eye tracking that allows me to move the cursor in vim just by looking
 
nwp
vim supports a cursor?
 
if you mean mouse, yes it supports mouse
but I mean the cursor it has
 
nwp
it will probably be annoying when you try to read stuff and the cursor keeps hiding it right where you are trying to read it
maybe you should be able to blink to move the cursor
 
3:36 PM
@Mysticial rofl
 
3:49 PM
I might go to Meeting C++ this year.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Please do, I plan on hitting up there as well!
Oh, wait.
This year.
 
It overlaps with my currently planned visit to Israel.
 
tfw I want to go next year.
 
So I have to make changes.
 
@Borgleader
-2
Q: How to Inject spyware in apk

ZapacHi I need a spyware to inject in apk. Ok I need it for many reasons. One of it is to get links that is generated within the app. Just like hotstar app it generate some playable and downloadable link. I need a way to see it. Like we can see what a website is doing while its loading in chrome->devo...

2
 
3:57 PM
Huh, that's funny
uniq only gets unique elements that are consecutive
A better name is probably run-length encoding :v
rle, go go go
Maybe rlunique?
 
@Mysticial Next up: "I urgently need to hack into stackoverflow.com and release the private data on all its users to the public. I need to do this by Friday at the latest. Somebody please help!"
 
That's the only semantics that have O(n) runtime.
 
@JerryCoffin -1 not enough misspelled words.
 
@Mysticial Damn. I'll never get this right!
 
@JerryCoffin It's hard to be an idiot when you're not one.
 
4:00 PM
@Mysticial In that case, I should have no problem at all! :-)
 
4:39 PM
Is someone trolling us?
 
user1881400
No lol I think me and the guy before were copying the guy above. I did that because I saw opportunity. But anyway, when did this C++ Q/A room get created?
 
Oh, I wasn't paying attention. You haven't here long enough for me to recognize your avatar.
 
user1881400
Cool, though. Now I don't have to bug you guys. :)
 
@Mysticial I am the only one with dark purple avatar
 
^^ Really SE?
 
4:51 PM
@ThePhD Similar API with this problem: std::unique
 
nwp
turning on a windows computer after a few months sucks, it has been doing updates for hours
 
@Mysticial Nice. you just have been used for promotion of the job ad /
 
nwp
I wonder if the point will come when new updates arrive faster than you can update.
 
@Mysticial what would be your dream job?
 
Ven
5:07 PM
@Mysticial ARE YOU DANGEROUS?
@orlp great question
I need to do some more codegolf soonish
 
@nwp The whole "doubt" thing is Indian English. I didn't learn about it until I started using SO. None of my Indian friends or colleagues say it. Probably because they would get corrected immediately the first few times (after being in the US for long enough).
 
@Mysticial They got the spacing a little wrong there. Instead of it was intended to say: .
This job is testing the acidity of stool samples. Or something like that, anyway.
@Mysticial I have a doubt about this (SCNR).
 
@Mysticial "Austin 'Danger' Powers"
 
Ven
5:30 PM
@JerryCoffin somehow it makes even more sense
 
5:41 PM
@JerryCoffin I read that as, "a job of tasting acidic stool samples"
 
@Mysticial "We guarantee that every day you'll have a shit-eating grin expression on your face."
 
@Mysticial Tasting stools of LSD addicts? :)
 
@Mysticial idgits... idgits everywhere
@Mysticial lol!
 
> Lounge<C++> there place where we talk about eating shit.
Oh btw:
8
Q: How can we make the voter "call to action" ads more universal?

Shog9You may not have noticed it, but there's a new set of ads running on SO (and maybe other sites) right now: I guess we got approached by some voter registration org about running these, and it seemed like a good idea... So we're running them. They appear for folks who we think are in the USA, a...

 
3
A: How can we make the voter "call to action" ads more universal?

Jeff AtwoodIsn't part of the reason we're doing this is because the current US election is historically unprecedented in the breadth of American history? I had a few non-US folks ping me on Twitter about this, and it seemed to me they didn't understand how bizarre this situation is relative to any other ele...

 
5:49 PM
^^ Historically, I've never voted since I've always lived in deep blue states, (California/Illinois) so it wouldn't have mattered. But I'm probably going to vote in this election simply because it's really fucked up. Which state should I claim residency in? Both California and Illinois are still deep blue.
 
> So, maybe the point they are missing is, this is a unique (and desperate) situation, sort of like.. and it greatly pains me to go here .. Germany circa 1930?
wow
 
6:02 PM
Can CLion be use as a remote IDE ? with ssh
 
@fredoverflow that took forever to show up on youtube
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow omg finally
 
ok so TIL that if another user edits over your edit suggestion
the community user just insta rejects your edit and it disappears in the void
1. your edit record now sucks
2. your edit disappeared and no one ever saw it
and this happens a lot with multiple people editing at the same time
I made this suggested edit on a question to make it self-contained
another user changed something else at the same time
my edit disappeared, and fuck you SE I'm not doing it again
 
6:18 PM
@milleniumbug WTF is it with the American exceptionalism bullshit?
@Mysticial I have only ever voted once.
It was a referendum on the abortion law in Portugal.
Referendums in Portugal are legally binding if more than 50% of the population votes, so voting actually counts even if your vote "loses".
Every other time I've decided voting was not useful.
 
user1881400
I live in super-duper-liberal washington state, but I'm fairly conservative. So I don't vote on presidency either since there's no chance. Not that I want to vote for either party's primary candidate in this case either, but overwhelmingly others will vote for one of those 2, so there's another good reason not to bother.
 
6:34 PM
@Mysticial Claim Wisconsin. Swing state, less than 2 hour drive.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Tomalak must be shitting bricks right now.
 
I like how Jeff is all "it just says to vote", despite making the NSDAP comparison.
Unless he means to compare Hillary with the NSDAP.
You could cut the bias with a knife.
 
Or a chainsaw.
 
The whole argument is also bullshit, even if you play along and pretend it's a general call to vote instead of a veiled call to vote for Hillary.
If this election is so important, more or less people voting is irrelevant.
The outcome isn't better just because more people voted.
 
Especially not in the US, where you can win 100% of the presidency with only 22% of the vote!
 
6:39 PM
Fastest TTGL (Time To Godwin's Law) ever — rossipedia ♦ 22 mins ago
 
@JerryCoffin Probably less than that since Chicago is right at the top. Iowa would be more worth it. Either way, I think you need a mailing address to claim residency. Not that I'm familiar with the process though. I'm still using my California ID and mailing address.
 
It's only better if those people vote for the better option (whichever it is, but saying it's the most important election in hundreds of years implies that there's an important choice to make)
 
It's the most important election ever if you really think Donald Trump is the worst presidential candidate ever.
 
Voting isn't a duty of democratic citizens; voting well when you exercise that privilege, however, is.
 
@Mysticial where's your driver's license? alternative you can move to colorado and we can use the help here. Also beer and boulder
 
6:41 PM
@Mgetz California.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Historically, "get out the vote" attempts have favored Democrats by quite a wide margin. Republicans tend toward demographics who are self-motivated enough to vote, regardless.
 
@JerryCoffin That's actually true for any kind of conservatism, in North America at least.
 
@JerryCoffin I know, but I'm playing along with the idea that a call to vote is 100% neutral. The argument doesn't hold under that assumption either.
 
In Canada, the Conservative Party has a base that votes for it out of pure tradition.
 
@Mgetz For all the US government cares, I'm still in California since I still have a valid mailing address there. But I'm physically in Illinois with an address here as well. So I think I can claim either one.
 
6:42 PM
@JerryCoffin republicans tend to favor tactics such as: Poll taxes, Literacy tests, Photo Id requirements, limited voting time. etc
@Mysticial pick one, vote there
 
But I'm probably gonna go Illinois simply because Illinois isn't quite as deep blue as California.
 
as long as you don't vote twice, they usually don't care
 
@EtiennedeMartel That doesn't surprise me.
 
Now, whatever you do, your vote isn't gonna be worth as much as the millions the lobbyists sink in Washington.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes s/well/responsibly/ is a better phrasing.
 
6:44 PM
So, yay for democracy?
 
@JerryCoffin it's easier to vote in rural areas, the barriers to voting are generally less
 
@Mysticial It gives me freedom though: since my vote won't change anything anyway, I won't feel guilty voting for a third party candidate.
 
@JerryCoffin I'm of the opinion that if a pollster calls you, you should always say you're voting for the third party candidate closest to the candidate you're actually voting for.
 
The third party candidates are also terrible, though.
The main difference is that they just don't have a chance of winning.
 
6:49 PM
Oh I know, I just want them to be part of the debates
 
@JerryCoffin Are you still in Colorado?
 
@Mgetz Might want to check your history there. Poll taxes were almost entirely a democratic invention.
@Mysticial San Diego (for a couple years now).
 
@JerryCoffin Dixiecrat to be specific, but they defected to the republican party after 1968
I sort of consider them their own horrible party
 
@JerryCoffin ah, warmer weather. I guess that's the benefit of throwing away your vote. :P
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes As usual, I'm not really voting for anybody. I'm just voting against both Clinton and Trump.
 
6:52 PM
Johnson is... well, a lolbertarian, and Stein is an antivaxxer and a fan of woo.
@JerryCoffin Fair enough.
Bernie was best.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Stein's a physician, so I doubt she's personally against vaccination--she just (apparently) thinks that's a group whose vote she wants to get. Given that level of hypocrisy, I kinda have to vote against her too though. Johnson is no gem, but out of this group, well, he may be the least awful.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, wooing antivaxxers strengthens the antivaxxer movement, so I'm not sure if it matters whether she believes it or not.
And like you said, if she doesn't really believe it, it's even worse.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not sure it should, but hypocrisy bothers me more than stupidity.
 

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