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Wes
12:04 PM
how about millions? say up to 50
 
Wes
brb F1 & spaghetti
 
F1 is really booo...ooring..
so many laps
much less wow
 
Wes
@Ocramius now that i think of it, i've worked with a table with 20 million rows, and had string ids, also JOINed itself (up to 20 depth, iirc) and it wasn't particularly slow
 
move on :)
 
12:07 PM
@Wes 20 Mln rows is pennies
 
Wes
but used to serve max 1, possibly 2 users at the same time :B
 
morning
 
Wes
@Saitama it is, it's hard being a ferrarista these days. but the red is the red
#totallyitalian
 
:P
 
@Wes it's still useful for sleeping.
 
Ekn
12:14 PM
mornin
 
@Ekn o/
 
@Saitama congrats, you reinvented apache.
 
12:35 PM
Telling a programmer there's already a library to do X is like telling a songwriter there's already a song about love
5
 
they should totally tell song writers...
 
@bwoebi Could be worth for things like Amp\promises, but it's probably not worth it, because that's mostly used inside a library not with multiple mixed promisors.
 
@kelunik Amp\promises?
 
That's a function.
In Amp.
It's a thing.
 
never used that
 
12:43 PM
It just exists because of our performance hack.
 
@kelunik uhm? which perf hack?
 
Deferred.
 
ah, converts Promisors to Promises…
meh
@kelunik actually, not sure how it's related to the "perf hack"
the perf hack is to make Promise and Promises the same instance
 
@bwoebi Right, and Amp\promises exists so that you can just return an array of promisors and skip the method calls in case of the same instance.
Because most often you store promisors not promises (in a library).
 
@kelunik lol, that single fcall doesn't matter enough… or how often do you transform a really big array of Promisors to Promises?
 
12:56 PM
Not that often, but we all agreed it was a good thing back then.
 
@kelunik I honestly did not even know about its existence…
 
twitter.com/Incapsula_com < WTF, the same 3 blog posts every and really every day again.
@bwoebi Noticed that, don't know why you don't remember it.
 
hello!
is there anyone?
 
@Rain I don't see anyone.
 
lol ok
 
12:58 PM
What's your question? Just ask.
 
2 secnd
second*
 
@kelunik dunno, your chat isn't very searchable…
 
@staabm Let's just don't choose one but change the homepage color and eyes every day randomly.
 
@kelunik
 
@Rain Don't ping me without a message. Just write your question.
 
1:06 PM
I am 13 years old and 1 year about computer science study. Only that I like many computer science courses (web design, web developer, programming, sysadmin and many more), where should I start?
 
Find something you want to make, start trying to make it.
Repeat for the next 20 years or so....
 
@Wes You can totally use a less saturated and darker green in combination with the lime eyes.
 
Wes
@kelunik that is called poop green though. it's an actual name. i checked the pantone
... :B
 
@Wes appropriate, then.
 
Wes
@kelunik @FlorianMargaine is insinuating your code is poop :B
 
1:18 PM
@FlorianMargaine is poop. And does poop. Sometimes. Probably. Actually I'm pretty sure.
I'm not sorry for the multiping. :P
 
@kelunik I do indeed poop.
and I touch poop now and then.
 
Guessed so. :P
 
I just touched your site.
 
Guessed so. :P
Note that touching the site and poop isn't actually related.
 
well, you're using poop green...
 
Wes
1:24 PM
@kelunik did you make the theme, including the style of text, highlight of code, etc?
 
@Wes Yes, it's a WIP
 
Wes
you need to improve the sidebar, took me ages to understand that i needed to uncollapse items first :B
 
Yes, navigation is especially WIP
@bwoebi introduced some algorithm that makes it take 15 seconds to build now.
 
@kelunik feel free to optimize it
I've tried what was doable at all
I'm not an expert in jekyll syntax and from what I've found, the only possible thing was doing O(n^2) loops
 
Wes
are you ok with me improving the site look, though? i don't think it's horrible, i promise :D it's just ... not great enough :P
 
1:28 PM
We can also replace Jekyll, I'm also not an expert.
@Wes Suggestions are always welcome.
 
@kelunik Whatever works best for github pages and in general
 
@bwoebi Then there's just Jekyll.
 
Wes
my suggestion could go from "you should change the font" to "lets delete everything and start over again" :B
 
@Wes I don't care as long as you retain the text, it's nicely readable and browsable.
 
amphp.org/search.html?q=once @bwoebi that's also not a good search result. But I also don't really want to have a page for each function.
 
Wes
1:30 PM
also the logo is very demanding, you need to design the site around it, not the opposite
 
@Wes Currently, there's none. No real one.
 
Wes
no real logo you mean?
:P
 
yup
Once you finish it up and give amphp the right to use it, we'll have one. ^^
 
Markdown killed my father
 
1:33 PM
@kelunik don't want either
 
Wes
forgive my being very slow. it's actually challenging for me, never did similar stuff before
 
won't worry, it's way better than everything I could come up with. And @bwoebi and @rdlowrey are even worse than me at that kind of thing.
 
Wes
i can't go straight to the final result, but eventually will look good. the smallest change takes a lot of time, every time
 
@Wes Maybe we should start with a navigation concept.
 
Wes
maybe would've been a better idea doing it on paper first... but it's too late now :B
do you have a manual and a function reference or are them the same thing?
 
1:41 PM
Currently, it's the same thing. Don't know whether we'll keep that.
I think a reference would be useful, especially if you just want to look up specific things and come from a search engine
@Wes Don't you want to finish up the logo first?
 
Wes
i'm doing it right now
takes ages to do anything...
 
Was just asking because you mentioned doing it on paper, thought you talked about the design of the page
^ @bwoebi regarding function ref?
 
@kelunik what do you mean?
 
6 mins ago, by Wes
do you have a manual and a function reference or are them the same thing?
4 mins ago, by kelunik
I think a reference would be useful, especially if you just want to look up specific things and come from a search engine
 
Agree on that one … at the same time you can then also feed the search (not sure if possible?) with the reference?
 
1:48 PM
We'd need an own search then.
 
no way to feed googles search with a map for preferred results?
 
And it still is something for users coming from Google.
@bwoebi Don't think so, but don't know.
 
2:10 PM
I think I'll turn commit-bot into a useful doc-bot.
 
Wes
@kelunik @bwoebi
something like this, maybe?
looks balanced
i failed with it being symmetric. it just won't look like a trunk
 
^ Just for comparison again.
 
Wes
yeah, it's half a trunk. don't you get the same impression?
 
@Wes I like the one with the trunk just down more.
 
Wes
which one?
 
2:20 PM
@Wes I have the impression that it's just rolled up into its mouth, at least that's what I tried to express with the more narrow lines at the bottom.
 
Wes
can't be fully extended if it's that what you mean, it would unbalance the logo
 
@Wes The one I posted.
@Wes My issue with that is that the trunk has a completely different style than the rest of the logo.
 
Wes
@kelunik yep but imagine it microscopic within the header, it will look trunc-ated :B
@kelunik it's just an impression, it will totally fit the logo
that is just a sketch made in ps
 
@Wes I think the original one with trunk down is best. Eye color might be friendlier than a blue (green is still bit aggressive……)
 
@Wes No need to imagine.
 
2:26 PM
@kelunik the trunk looks a bit too long
 
too long?!
 
the part between the 3rd and 4th bar is too long
in the minaturized version at least
 
Did you click for a full size version? It's shrinked in the chat.
 
yes, I did
 
@Wes It doesn't look that "solid" anymore, I think that's it.
 
2:36 PM
A newbie question, how do I create a default layout for posting stuff?
 
@JamesSnowy Posting stuff with?
 
Post method.
 
@kelunik trunk looks cut off ^^
 
@Wes It has to look fine in the larger version, too. Logos are so complicated <.<
@JamesSnowy Don't get what you're asking. There's no such thing as a default layout for a POST request.
 
Oh, I see, let me say like this.
Think a blog.
 
2:39 PM
Depends on the software then.
 
You can see content on the first page, and the layout for each introduction is the same.
How can you just simply do that?
Basically a default layout when your posting stuff.
 
Which software do you use? Or do you just start a new blog?
 
Well, I'm basically trying to achieve the blog-effect.
With localhost.
 
blog-effect?
 
Like I described.
I'll give you a live example.
 
2:42 PM
I asked some questions, please answer them.
 
Each "article" has the same layout.
 
@JamesSnowy So it's no PHP related question at all?
If you want to use Jekyll, you can have a look at github.com/kelunik/kelunik.github.io
 
I believe it is, but I do not know really.
I don't really know how to describe it but,
 
Wes
watch it full size
 
Those white / cyan bars are confusing.
 
Wes
2:50 PM
@kelunik they might be confusing, but i had to add some color
 
@Wes Color for the sake of color? They're pretty distracting.
 
Wes
just for sake of color. page is too blank
imho with the trunk rolled it's always going to look like trunk was chopped off. and that's too disturbing
even in the larger one, you don't get immediately where the trunk is, so you think it's cut off
i'd go with the trunk as in my previous sketch i.imgur.com/XXfgoyE.png
i'll leave you few microseconds to propose alternatives :B
 
@Wes the current thing? :P
 
Wes
current thing?
currently it's faded out. i don't think that's an option :B
@bwoebi check the trunk in above examples's headers ^
 
oh, you're talking about the trunk
 
3:00 PM
@bwoebi :/ :(
 
@Saitama no, it just remembers me much of appserver.io/apache by its structure (pthreads and then dir-structure)
 
Wes
@Saitama still an achievement. you should be proud of yourself :P
 
i see...
 
Wes
it's not that people write webservers everyday...
 
:P thanks...
 
Wes
3:02 PM
bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob bob feedback pls
or i will never finish this :B really, it's going to take ages just finishing what i have now
 
@Wes don't work on the homepage in parallel, it will help ^^
 
Wes
i'm not working on the homepage. that is just a demo of how the logo would look on the gui with matching colors
 
There is a English word which means "creepy". And its phonetic is something like "yaki". Anybody knows what's that word?
 
@Wes TBH, I'm not sure about the new trunk… Both aren't bad, but I somehow prefer the rolled up one…
 
Wes
3:16 PM
@Shafizadeh scary? nasty? itchy? spooky?
 
5 hours ago, by bwoebi
> If one of the callbacks throws an Exception or Throwable, it MUST be forwarded to Loop::onError where Loop refers to the global event loop accessor using a Loop::defer callback.
5 hours ago, by bwoebi
@kelunik why not immediately error out?
 
Wes
@bwoebi i know mine will look great :B and since rolled one is simpler to make, i'm trying mine first
 
@bwoebi Because that has issues again if the callback errors.
Also, clean call stack.
 
@kelunik isn't that the responsibility of Loop::onError() to clean call stack?
 
@Wes waiting for the new version then for further feedback
@bwoebi onError shouldn't be invoked manually normally. Just by the loop itself and in this case the promise API.
Actually, we can't even call Loop::onError. That one just sets a callback.
So we have to rethrow it in defer, that was the plan.
That's also the real reason for defer.
 
3:20 PM
Rethrow in defer looks okay to me
 
Updated the spec.
Any other issues, things to improve?
 
@kelunik should be Asnyc\Promise instead of Async\Promise\Promise
but everything else is fine
 
@bwoebi many? where? what?
 
@kelunik not sure what the many had lost there…
and s/consumtion/consumption/
> A promise's value MUST NOT be a promise as previously stated. Instead, when resolved with a promise, the implementation should register a when callback to resolve itself once the passed promise resolves.
should be rewritten as:
 
Why when() while everybody else uses then()?
 
3:30 PM
> A promise's value MUST NOT be a promise as previously stated. Instead, when resolved with a promise, the promise itself MUST be resolved once the passed promise resolves with that promises result.
 
Ah, uh, there's something in the footnotes, let me read up
 
Do not say anything (in the spec) about how the implementation should do it, but rather what the result must be. @kelunik
 
Uh, yeah "This goal conflicts with the existing Promises/A+ specification for javascript." seems to miss to argue why Promises/A are not lightweight "enough"? :)
 
> Finally, this specification does not deal with how to create, succeed or fail promises, as only the consumtion of promises is required to be interoperable.
 
3:33 PM
@m6w6 I can add that.
 
@kelunik nice, replied :-)
 
Don't you think something calling itself "interop" should build on a common base? No pun intended, but my feeling is the vast majority of promises implementation do not use when()? (also, just tell me to shut up)
Also, on another note, what would be needed to make an ext consumable for the userland loops? Just providing the fds to select/poll/etc?
 
@m6w6 The goal is to build a promise API that's solid and can later be built into the PHP core.
 
@m6w6 SHUT UP! (j/k) … the point is that we try to install a primitive (which eventually shall someday be used by php-src too??) … We try to reduce the functionality to the lowest point necessary
@m6w6 not sure what you mean? something like php-uv?
 
@bwoebi :)
 
3:39 PM
Hi, can someone help me, is there plugins for bar code reader ?
 
@bwoebi nah, somehting like pecl/http and pecl/pq
 
@m6w6 ah, yes, we need a pollable php_stream* (i.e. something that internally can return a fd)
 
Mhmkay
@kelunik But why call it "interop" then?
 
@m6w6 because that's what it's for now
 
@m6w6 Because that's the common standard react, icicle and amphp agrees on.
 
3:41 PM
We just provide something. Whether internals will sometime accept it, no idea
 
@kelunik o_O don't two of those follow Promises/A while only amp uses when()?
 
You're right, but @Trowski agrees with us that it has to be lightweight.
 
@m6w6 the point is that we don't provide a Promisor etc. either … so actually it's not Promises/A(+)
when() instead of then() is just a further deviation
 
@bwoebi Promises/A+ doesn't have that as well.
 
So it basically boils down to somwthing similar like a Thenable?
 
3:43 PM
@kelunik oh, I thought
 
...only... a, uh, Whenable :)
 
@m6w6 Design goals are lightweight and error-first.
@bwoebi promisesaplus.com < I even took some things out of it for my draft.
 
@kelunik Yeah, looked it up right now…
 
@m6w6 Right, current name suggestion is Awaitable.
 
Okay... sounds like a hard way ahead then ;-) packagist.org/search/?q=promise
 
@kelunik Oh, with await support in the language?
 
@m6w6 We don't need that. We have yield.
 
@m6w6 Well… The fewest are doing exactly Promises/A+
https://github.com/ThrusterIO/promise/blob/master/src/PromiseInterface.php has an additional $onProgress
https://github.com/php-http/promise/blob/master/src/Promise.php has further methods (wait/state)
https://github.com/guzzle/promises/blob/master/src/PromiseInterface.php many other funcs too
 
But my current goal is to use yield + async function in PHP 7.2 that makes it not return a Generator but instead an Awaitable.
@bwoebi Additional methods don't matter.
 
@bwoebi Maybe but all have then(onfulfill, onerror) in common, don't they?
 
3:49 PM
yeah, true
 
@m6w6 But that requires two callbacks for coroutines which are the main usage later.
 
porgress callback is optional, and IIRC reactphp also provides somehting like that
 
@kelunik Not sure if error handling in every callback is any better than (a possibly reusable) error handler
Anyway, I do not mean to really argue, just questioning the intentions
 
@m6w6 you always can use a reusable error handler in a primary when()
> The promise implementation must then continue to call the remaining callbacks with the original reason.
I'm not sure whether that's a good idea
 
3:54 PM
It is, because (almost) every async operation can fail.
 
"The signature doesn't specify a type for $error. This is due to the new Throwable interface introduced in PHP 7. As this specification is PHP 5 compatible, we can't use neither Throwable nor Exception."
What? You make a spec for PHP5? =)
 
:-P
@m6w6 anyway, you typically execute Generators, there it doesn't matter
 
@bwoebi Why? when() callables should be independent.
 
@kelunik yes, you're right, because when() may be invoked at any point, also after resolution
it's primarily for libraries that you really need when() … and there you hardly can reuse error handlers @m6w6
 
4:05 PM
Ah, ParkFramework in there as well..
Hah, just discovered that github thinks readme.php is an actual README github.com/m6w6/seekat/tree/master/examples
Uh, isn't a static function in an interface useless? github.com/stephaneerard/Promise.php/blob/master/…
 
@m6w6 yes.
TFW when you've been changing code for an hour and realize that what you did is utter bullshit and the original source actually was fine…
 
@m6w6 It's just the same with the event loop. It's pretty much Amp know, neither React's nor Icicle's API.
 
@m6w6 It's also called "instanciate", so...
 
4:24 PM
@NikiC :P
@kelunik But that's the root cause of the failure of calling that "interop" while you're just proposing to adopt what you think is superior :p
 
@m6w6 Not I think that. We think that. It ensures future interop, that's how it works with most PSRs.
 
"most"
@kelunik sorry, that "you" was plural
I actually don't question, whether it's superior, it just, well... I'll have to make sure to prepare the popcorn for when you propose that to internals :p
 
@m6w6 Not, it is not. We're not proposing a standard implementation of an event loop or promise. We're just designing the interfaces for it to work in an interoperable way instead of everyone brewing their own.
 
Didn't you (plural, because I can't remember who) say, that you want it to move it into core?
 
We don't actually need that, but maybe. Reason is mainly async function, because using generators instead of promises and having to switch between yield from and yield is really ugly.
 
4:31 PM
You do not propose a standard implementation, but an interface that counters, say, 90% of existing implementation's interfaces?
 
Also something like the following:
public function whatever() {
    return resolve(function() use ($allTheThings) { ... });
}
@m6w6 You're right, but there's no way around it if we want it to be really performant, too.
 
How can an interface define performance? :P
Remember, it may be time to say "shut up!"
 
@m6w6 Also: We won't submit it to internals directly.
 
Oh?
@bwoebi ^here, bwoebi it was, but apparently the claim was way softer than I remembered
 
@m6w6 yes, was soft. It's something internals shall consider when it's going down that route
but it's not something we'll directly submit
 
4:37 PM
Anyway, thanks for the discourse, gotta have dinner with the kids now ;)
 
4:51 PM
@m6w6 Actually, performance doesn't matter that much, just an additional closure creation everytime you use then.
@bwoebi We can't leave Promisor totally out, at least not how to fulfill promises, because of $promisor->succeed($promise);
 
@kelunik why can't we leave Promisor out?
We just specify the expected result
that it actually is achieved by Promisor is irrelevant
 
We can, yes. I just mean that we can't leave the fulfill mechanism out of it.
 
i.e. new Success($promise) should not resolve to a Promise either
even though it's not a Promisor
 
@bwoebi s/Promise/Promisor
@m6w6 It can, because A+ forces you to return a new promise from then.
 
5:09 PM
There is a name of a specification or library that I can't remember. I believe it's a standard way to store symbols of a file or project.
Any bells ringing in anyone's head?
 
@Wes thank you .. "itchy" is what I was looking for.
 
@kelunik Oh well, what else to return? To quote Dmitry: "objects are cheap, classes are not".
@LeviMorrison (c)tags?
 
I think so; that rings a bell. Looking it up.
 
@m6w6 It adds up.
 
@kelunik Maybe, surely not enough to weigh in against the actual async operation
 
5:17 PM
@m6w6 It doesn't matter how long the async operation takes.
 
In the end, it does.
 
@m6w6 No, not in something like Aerys.
It matters for a single response, but the time of the async operation doesn't matter for Aerys itself.
 
WTF? HTTP/2 in userland PHP? You're crazy; does it work out?
 
Sure.
 
Awesome :p
 
5:22 PM
Just try it. You just need OpenSSL 1.0.2 and PHP 7.
 
oh, no-go on Debian (openssl)
 
@kelunik how do you block directory traversal attack in aerys?
do you create something like chroot?
 
thanks ;-)
 
@m6w6 That doesn't sound like Dmitry at all
You should interpret that as "Objects are expensive, and classes are even more expensive" :P
 
5:27 PM
morning @Trowski
@Wes So you're doing the final version in Illustrator?
 
@kelunik morn
@kelunik This looks great except I wouldn't call them promises just because they aren't the promises people are familiar with. Awaitable or Task would be better.
 
Every time someone uses that word, I get this in my head:
 
@Trowski I dislike Task
 
I also don't like task.
 
5:42 PM
… oh confused with Ubuntu and debian ^^
 
@bwoebi Suggestion came from C#.
 
@Danack GEMA blocked. ^^
 
@m6w6 actually, if you anyway have a custom PHP 7, you can just compile in a custom openssl lib (At least I assume so, when you have PHP 7 on debian…)
 
@bwoebi Yes, you can. I did that on my server.
 
hi
 
5:48 PM
@Trowski If you want a new name for a new API, we should go with Whenable.
 
can you help me with BIOMETRICS
 
@kelunik And call the interface with then() Thenable instead?
 
@Trowski Why should we have a second interface?
 
@kelunik To satisfy all the people that seem to be stuck on promises. I'd like to extend the interface with when() so the coroutine engine doesn't have to care.
I'd like an interface that React can implement right away.
 
@Trowski It can exist in libraries, but not in the spec.
 
5:52 PM
@Trowski Right. It's just the library implementations of their Thenable interfaces which would need to add a tiny when() method
It's actually minimally-invasive thus
 
Hi @bwoebi I forgot to say a while ago I added some more tests to the closure from callable branch. It looks like trying to create a closure for a private static function fails, as well as protected static.
 
@bwoebi True, so we probably don't need a Thenable interface, I was just trying to be accommodating.
 
can you help me with BIOMETRICS (fingerprint)
 
@Trowski Just saying, libs already have their own Thenables … not sure why adding that would help anything
 
@NikiC Hmmm... can't find that quote now :-/
 
5:56 PM
@Danack Are you going to push this RFC for 7.1?
 
@bwoebi I wouldn't run Debian if I'd want to run PHP-7 :p
 
I think so.
 
@bwoebi Just to help standardize promises as well. But if React would implement Whenables, then it's not needed at all.
 
Alas, next version ships with PHP-7, when it's due?
 
it's not exactly the most controversial one - hopefully.
 
5:57 PM
@m6w6 2017
 
Yeah, well, in a life of a server, that's tomorrow
 
@m6w6 hah, I wish
 
I ran my first server with Linux 2.2/2.4 from 2002 to 2014
 
@m6w6 If you count in security update cycles, yes. :P
 
@m6w6 right … and inside a timespan of 12 years, one year isn't exactly tomorrow
 
5:59 PM
If you think as dog, it is :p
 
Don't understand that one ^^
 
okay, maybe, next week
 
hehe
 

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