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12:00 AM
@rgchris Annoying but fixable, right? :-)
The hybrid criteria sounds good.
 
@HostileFork Definitely with a few HTTP round trips.
Not sure if it's worth it.
 
Certainly not a priority for now...let's see what evolves...
 
red> probe m: make map! [#"a" a #"A" A] m/(#"A")
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Syntax error: invalid path at m/#"A"
*** Where: do
*** Stack: do-console all not unset? set do first head reduce do* _execute if all not unset? set do first head reduce do* ctx52~transcode unless either parse cause-error do
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
#(
    #"a" a
    #"A" A
)
== #(
    #"a" a
    #"A" A
)
 
@giuliolunati Very glad you're taking on the map! Keep bringing the good news :-)
 
12:04 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
#(
    #"a" a
    #"A" A
)
== A
 
red> probe m: make map! [#"a" a #"A" A] m/(#"a")
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
#(
    #"a" a
    #"A" A
)
== a
 
@HostileFork sure! :-)
@HostileFork in Red maps CHAR!s are treated case sensitively (!= STRING!s) We want the same?
 
12:22 AM
@giuliolunati Hrrgm. I would say no. @rgchris ?
Bearing in mind a /STRICT or /CASE refinement to get the other behavior, hence it's strictly more powerful to be able to switch it.
@moliad argued before that the case-sensitivity of charsets in parse is a "feature" to get past an otherwise case-insensitive parse to do mixed case and non-case. I was skeptical.
A better feature in parse would be able to turn case sensitivity on and off as an instruction
Which I'm sure has been requested
 
12:36 AM
@johnk No probs. Thanks for responding. I'm sorry for forgetting this was covered earlier. I did notice the 3-digit fails and 4-digit works, but that was not enough to remember that the earlier discussion was about linking.
 
@HostileFork I went for 2 then 4 here
 
Well, I think we are ready overall to be thinking about if flipping the bias to strict equality is the thing to do, it does keep coming up.
Leaning in to my "WORD! is in the category ANY-STRING!" argument, and that all strings may be bound if they so desire (at which time they become immutable)... it would perhaps surprise people less that 'A = 'a is false; they would know if they were checking if words were equal treated in a case insensitive fashion to use ~=.
I guess the thing is just how far that spreads. I don't know.
Too much to think about already. @giuliolunati It may be best to at least make it easy to do whatever Red does, even if that's not the plan ultimately gone with. So be up to date on that list Chris linked and make it possible to do the Red way with a build switch; localize the decisions and make notes at the points where each decision is so it could be changed. Modify with Confidence!
 
1:08 AM
@MarkI Also...discussions of what all [] returns aside, I have made peace today I think with infix AND, OR, and XOR (and NOT) returning LOGIC!, even if it's redundant with prefix AND? OR? XOR?. The question of whether NOT? is added for completeness as a synonym for NOT is something I'd also suggest. A slight poke came from CHECK-SET and perhaps an idea that there will indeed be purely-logic-returning-things that don't end in ?, and deciding that true and false had to be FALSE not NONE!
I was generally expecting I'd conclude they must be LOGIC! but still kept the door open until the last minute, there.
They should also reject UNSET! (distinguishing them from their unsets-are-no-vote counterparts in ANY and ALL)
I proposed ONE to mean only one thing in the set be true, which isn't quite like XOR but the most useful version of it...and we have to consider if we want /ONLY variants of these (which we probably do) that do not reduce.
 
@HostileFork I really do think we are on the same page on this one, yes. For me it's a bizarre conflation of feeling databases shouldn't need nulls and objects shouldn't cram two meanings into one field, and among other things it bothers me that I can't even find a way to better express it than that!
 
Yes, well, I think we're on good footing to try, the main problem being that the user context needs to have binding points for things that are unset, and you can unset through words and then set again... so it is introducing a state beyond membership or absence of membership.
There is "x that is not in the user context" and then there is "x that is in the user context via some binding but doesn't have a value right now". You can set it through a word, then unset it, then set it again. So this has to be addressed for it all to line up.
 
In Rebol 2 there is no difference between an unset word and a word that's never been entered, except that in the former case a (binding-free) canonical version of the word has been cached. But with modules I guess that has all changed in Rebol 3?
Anyway, don't stress, I will be getting to these things later.
Right now I'm too excited about wrapping up this BNF dealy to get distracted too much.
 
1:34 AM
@MarkI Now there is a large database of distractions online with a nice editing interface and markdown and such.
 
@HostileFork Indeed. Very exciting!
 
And we all must thank @johnk not only for doing all the work (at a quality of import I don't think anyone expected to get), but also for being patient enough with the timescale of it being allowed to happen, as well as for sticking it through to get it working in Ren-C and continue keeping up with the developments there. (!)
So I had a strange idea about the input to FORM and its treatment of nested blocks that I had brought up here, where the block is not via reference but literal. e.g. form [a b [a b]] would be such that there be a special meaning in the handling of the second a b that is distinct, but c: [a b] form [a b c] would act as if you'd written form [a b a b]
And I was going to ask "are there any prominent examples where a word looking up to something is handled differently than the something being in place itself" and, duh, of course we have one...as in, many things in the DO evaluator.
As such it's not all that "wacky" in the sense that people are used to living with it in one of the most powerful "dialects" around. So I don't know if one should feel bad about designing a dialect with some of that same character to it.
 
posted on January 13, 2016 by hostilefork

This is mostly implemented in Ren-C, with outstanding issues below. Similarly as for the NOT operator, the AND, OR and XOR operators already have nonconditional counterparts. Naturally, the nonconditional AND counterpart is INTERSECT (currently just duplicating some of the functionality), the natural nonconditional counterpart of OR is UNION, and the natural nonconditional counterpart of XOR

 
And the thing I proposed to use this to indicate was: tightness. E.g. don't use the /WITH delimiter in the literally nested blocks, where space is default. I think this is quite compelling.
The idea is to use it for "tight" sections in the form. Then if you want the whole form to be tight, you can use /WITH of NONE!. You could also say form [[data all formed tight]] if you wished.
 
Hey, wish me happy RR day @HostileFork, it's been one year to the day since I entered this room!
 
1:49 AM
@MarkI Sounds like time to pull out amusing foreshadowing quotes
 
@HostileFork Was just thinking that!
 
@MarkI Here's January 12, 2015 and you don't seem to be on it so I'll let you dig to find your day...or curse the illuminati who have managed to erase you
 
Oog, maybe my time was off? I searched for it! Let me see ...
Nope. 'Twas me blind ol' eyes. Jan 22, not 12. I've still got ten days to accomplish something in my first year in this room!
Not that I will, mind, but it's still a cheering thought for me :)
It's even a Friday this year. Yay!
 
@MarkI Decisions have been made... a few :-)
But I think that due to groundwork here there's room for things to snap into place; things can go quickly when pieces align.
So in the migration dialect I initially wanted to be able to say old-word >> new-word to indicate a renaming. I switched it to old-world <to> new-word which in that case, might even be better. It's interesting because my first bad choice for a symbol was driven by '>> not working in Rebol2 and I wanted the script to work in Rebol2 as a shim... and after the bad choice I thought a tag looked good.
I say it's interesting because an unmarked word was not good for me (not distinguished) but then putting it in a tag kind of made me like it a bit better than if it had been the symbol. A little. But ultimate moral of the story: this tool needs both.
I'm not sure how large the symbolic vocabulary must be, but anything reasonable needs to be in there. And @MarkI, I've been seeing more examples of things like a->b from other languages, so maybe there is a case for it. We need the tag tickets worked out on this.
 
2:07 AM
@MarkI What do you think to the idea of a script which adds a new comment to each of these old tickets with a simple list of links to all the mentioned issues? This would fix the cross referencing and should be quite easy to implement
The comment would be something like -
Submitted by: Rebolbot
The following issues were mentioned in this ticket:
#1234
#345
#122
 
2:58 AM
We need some kind of random walker that generates lots of structures, DO's them, and edits the structure at random as well. It can trap errors if the thing it evaluates turns out to be bad, but just something to try and generate crashes via fuzz.
Basically something very likely to mutate during writes but that is organic and will perhaps make patterns that expose problems.
 
3:16 AM
@MarkI Any regrets? (didn't think so!)
@HostileFork I need to revisit the PowerMezz conversion—lots of scope there for large mysterious structures.
(that and for the HTML parser)
 
@rgchris Real world cases probably even better, but just saying it would be nice to have something that would mutate and execute, where the execution atoms had reasonable odds of still running around somewhat even if things were being removed and inserted randomly.
 
@HostileFork Sounds very trippy.
 
I've used such things before, kind of common in databaseland
 
3:33 AM
@HostileFork sound rather like mutation testing - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_testing
 
@johnk Yup, well it's a good kind of stress test and wouldn't be too hard to make one. If anyone is feeling inspired... :-) It would need to test basics like having in the set of elements a function that took quoted parameters vs evaluated ones (for instance)...it should have a mixture of things that cause errors and things that throw and catch, and add and remove elements in a way that balances out statistically to even though not be so robotic to add and remove total balance each step
Something that is eventually likely to modify series as they are executing, etc.
Working with such a C-based handmade artifact can be sucky, I prefer Knuth's way: "Beware of bugs in the following program. I've only proven it correct, I haven't actually run it."
 
4:30 AM
@pekr what's the url of the rebol.net wiki?
 
 
1 hour later…
5:37 AM
@ingo Any luck after merging up? Problem is believed solved... in a way that is believed to be standards compliant
 
@HostileFork No deep testing here, but current build starts up fine when compiled with default make -f makefile.boot
 
All right then. I think I'll consider it closed until need to reopen...
 
Fine with me. I'll check from time to time, and yell if it breaks.
 
Cool. Thanks for the help and the testing...march on...
 
 
2 hours later…
7:59 AM
@Morwenn Got around to fixing that vararg NULL thing, thanks for the tip...
 
8:45 AM
posted on January 13, 2016 by gregit

Using today's fresh ren-c code, entering ls command makes it crashes: >> ls Assertion failed: s->uni_buf_len == SERIES_LEN(UNI_BUF), file ../src/core/c-error.c, line 157 This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way. Please contact the application's support team for more information.

 
 
2 hours later…
10:41 AM
I have started a FAQ wiki for Ren-C, and am beginning to come up with some kind of strategy for syncing the GitHub README up. Just a start. But if anyone has questions to add--even if you know the answers, if you think it's a good question.
 
11:06 AM
@GrahamChiu it is www.rebol.net/wiki , but rebol.net was down, the same for rebol.com. Carl renewed rebol.com, some rebol.net stuff, but not sure when blog and wiki are going to be back online ...
 
 
2 hours later…
1:09 PM
    >> ensure none
    ** user error: ENSURE did not expect value to have type none!

    ** Note: use WHY? for more error information

    >> ensure if 304 > 1020 [print "unsets aren't taken"]
    ** user error: ENSURE did not expect value to have type unset!

    >> ensure/type 1020 string!
    ** user error: ENSURE did not expect value to have type integer!

    >> ensure/type 1020 [string! integer!]
    == 1020

    >> ensure/type none none!
    == none
 
posted on January 13, 2016 by hostilefork

This adds a construct designed to pass through a value, assuming it is not NONE! or UNSET!... e.g. that it is a SOMETHING?. If it is a NOTHING? then it will fail with an error message. There is also a refinement that is able to take a data type or types to check. If types are provided to the ENSURE then they override the checking for set and unset--only those types will match, and NONE!

 
 
1 hour later…
2:27 PM
@johnk IMO there's really no need. As I said, the collected links are at the bottom, and they even have titles which is nice.
Maybe a note at the top to say the links are at the bottom (for newcomers), but I won't insist on that.
@rgchris My only regret is how much time out of my life this exercise has taken, but that's not new (and the total is much greater than one year).
 
2:47 PM
posted on January 13, 2016 by John Dutcher

Regarding the two script functions below: I don't understand why trying to substitute 'print RPPS-REC' in the RPPS-UNSTRING-RECORD for the 'x: copy[]' shown always throws an error saying that 'print' has no value argument. I can replace 'x: copy[]' with an 'alert msg' and that also works. I 'am' giving print an argument...the name of the record I want printed. If I move the 'print RPPS-REC' req

 
 
4 hours later…
6:33 PM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make map! [
    "a" 1
]
1
1
 
6:59 PM
Hey there Rebol gurus, is there a backtracking opt for parse?
>> parse "0" [opt "1" "0"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
>> parse "0" [opt "0" "0"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
I want that last one to succeed ...
 
7:13 PM
Weird. I guess I am not understanding the OPT keyword in parse very well, no surprise.
What I thought was the way OPT works, I can get working another way (even same number of characters!):
>> parse "0" [[| "0"] "0"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
@RebolBot
a: "a"
probe m: map 64 m/(a): 1
append a "b"
probe m
probe m/("ab")
probe m("a")
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make map! [
]
make map! [
]
none
make map! [
]
== "a"
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make map! [
]
make map! [
    "ab" 1
]
1
make map! [
    "ab" 1
]
== "a"
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
make map! [
    "ab" 1
]
1
make map! [
    "ab" 1
]
== "a"
 
7:29 PM
What on earth is going on here!!!!
>> chars: charset "01" parse "0" [| chars]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
>> chars: charset "01" parse "0" [""| chars]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
The empty string is different from nothing????
 
7:44 PM
I'll say it's different:
>> chars: charset "01" parse "" [ | chars]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== true
 
>> chars: charset "01" parse "" ["" | chars]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
I can find no way to explain this behaviour. Help!
 
@MarkI You have a C compiler, maybe. And a debugger, maybe. Lacking that, access to GitHub to read. :-)
So ENSURE is pretty nice, and all the nicer with /TYPE, though I'm still wondering if the default should consider FALSE to be "ensured" or not.
ensure/type false logic! should be false, but should plain ensure false be false or raise an error?
My thought on making ensure not be "conditional" was that we now have other primitives that are based on this optionality switching and only dealing in the realm of NONE! and UNSET!, and that if you wanted to do conditional tests you could do it after the ensure... but part of it was implementation tail wagging the dog because since it has the type checking version the test it does can always be done with types if the false isn't considered.
ensure: func [
    {Pass through a value that isn't NONE! or UNSET!, but FAIL on all else.}
    value [opt-any-value!]
    /type
    types [block! datatype! typeset!]
        {FAIL only if not one of these types (block converts to TYPESET!)}
][
    unless find (case [
        unset? :types [any-something!]
        block? :types [make typeset! types]
        typeset? :types [types]
        datatype? :types [reduce [types]] ;-- we'll find DATATYPE! in a block
    ]) type-of :value [
        fail ["ENSURE did not expect value to have type" (type-of :value)]
It would be "less pretty" if false were considered to be not-ensured by default. But I don't want that to dictate the behavior if people think ENSURE FALSE should be an error by default.
So interestingly there you can do things like ensure/type (something) [integer! unset!]
 
8:10 PM
Turns out you have to be careful with the ordering of your subrules, the long matches have to be before the short ones.
Which no compiler, no debugger, and certainly no Github would ever have explained :(
There's a brief note in the parse project wiki that says ["a" | "ab"] will never match the "ab" but that's it.
Should have been enough, I guess :/
Anyways, problem solved.
 
I think I'm going to have to change ensure to say FALSE in the default is not ensured. Perhaps an /ONLY that lets you say none and false pass through and you're just checking for UNSETness.
ensure/only (some expression you don't want to be unset)
 
posted on January 13, 2016 by hostilefork

(Note: I do not yet have access to tag this as being an "issue being raised" as opposed to bug, wish, etc.) The C culture of programming is distinct from the target audience for Rebol (despite the implementation). However, it's fairly well established in C that assert(...) is something that has no important side effects, and can be turned off in a release build. So an issue is whether there

 
99% of the time you probably don't want it to be NONE! or FALSE either, or at least those are off your radar.
 
8:36 PM
<ignore> -- just thinking -- how wonderful life would be if all the academic discussion was saved for just before R5 release --- </ignore>
 
I think I am increasingly strongly leaning toward thinking that SET? and UNSET? should take words.
It's too easy to forget and say unset? value and forget the :value, so you don't get to the test.
It should be unset? 'value to look up if value the word is unset.
And I think void? should be the tester for voidness of a value, but you'd very rarely use this if the above were available.
The problem with that is that can't coexist with the previous UNSET?... although, since it only takes ANY-WORD! and perhaps ANY-PATH! (question being that paths must be eval'd to look up in some cases...) it has a more limited range of input.
But we must bear in mind before having too much of a fit that very little unmodified R3-Alpha code can run in Ren-C without some compatibility defines. It would be possible to redefine such a system to behave as R3-Alpha if one had to. But we're looking for the right answers here.
 
9:14 PM
>> find 1 1
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-expect-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: find does not allow integer! for its series argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
It can't give back a position, but if it would give back TRUE that would permit certain applications to take single elements or blocks.
 
10:04 PM
>> ỳ: 1 ỳ
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== 1
 
First FAQ question answered regarding executable size of r3... keep asking, and do feel free to copy-edit or even ask and answer your own.
 
posted on January 13, 2016 by giuliolunati

m: map 8 m/("ỳ") s-crc.c:226: Hash_Value: assertion SERIES_WIDE(((*VAL_SERIES_Ptr_Debug(val)))) == sizeof(REBYTE)" failed

posted on January 13, 2016 by giuliolunati

æ: 1 æ *** Script error: æ has no value

 
10:52 PM
** PROBE_MSG("adding to context") ../src/core/c-frame.c:1235
ỳ:

index was 13

** PROBE_MSG("adding to context") ../src/core/c-frame.c:1235
ỳ

index was 14
@giuliolunati Hrm, well, the second lookup isn't finding it in the binding table, and adding it again with a new index number for some bizarre reason. I'll look into why...thanks for the report...but some of these should definitely be in the tests...
 
11:09 PM
@MarkI I'm not sure that always works, for example this issue, github.com/rebol/rebol-issues/issues/72 . Also if a link to an issue is marked up as code then it will not be picked up. I got half way through writing a script to do this last night so I might finish it anyway :-) The parse rule gets a bit messy trying to make it robust enough
 
@HostileFork The number of issues keeps growing :p
 
@Morwenn Well, as long as they get closed, that's good. No issues generally is a stronger indicator of "no users" than "no problems"
 
I was working on something along the lines of ["c"|"("|"{"|" "] "#" charset [ #"1" - #"9" ] [ 0 3 charset #"0" - #"9" ] complement charset #"0" - #"9" but I still risk picking up issues in code examples
 
@HostileFork My library has no user, almost no problem and 16 issues...
 
(note obviously that is not the real code :-)
 
11:18 PM
@Morwenn Well, maybe we could have a build which uses it for Rebol's sort if you do a C++ build...
 
@HostileFork What's generally cheaper with Rebol values? Comparing them or actually moving them?
 
I think I'm only going to make the C++ build support C++11 and up, there's no point otherwise.
Comparisons can fail fast on the headers.
It depends on if they're the same type or not.
 
I know that Timsort is used in Python because comparing anything is expensive compared to moving a few pointers.
And Timsort performs fewer comparisons than many sorting algorithms.
 
@Morwenn Note on Red's sort here, adds a /stable option
 
Makes sense. If you want speed, you want to pay for stability only when it's needed.
 
11:25 PM
@Morwenn Rebol's cells are 4 platform pointers in size, so not very expensive
Generally probably the same balance that comparisons are more expensive
 
If you need an unstable and a stable sorting algorithm, I guess that pattern-defeating quicksort and Timsort are the best choices.
I think I almost solved a design issue a few days ago, but I can't implement it before the parallelism TS is available, so probably 2017 :/
 
Good to be thinking ahead, as we say here...someone has to.
I'm going to try now to get Ren-C's issue DB to 0. Broke an issue into 3 parts, one moved to the new Rebol issue tracker, other two solved in commits.
 
Yeah but that means that the issue will probably be open for 2 more years x)
@HostileFork Is there a new issue tracker?
 
@Morwenn Old issues, new tracker... GitHub import done: github.com/rebol/rebol-issues/issues
Needs... triage.
Some bugs, some design questions, lots of wishes
 
Oh man, that's a lot of them.
 
11:34 PM
We need to get the "bug and not bug" dividing line set up, for starters.
It's probably better I think to have them all together, and use queries to filter, than to make rebol-wishes separate, get a whole nother numbering scheme, second place to backup, etc.
 
Wait, is that the original Rebol repository? I thought it was unmaintained.
 
But we have the administrative issue of "if Ren-C has a resolution is that considered fixed or is there a militant wing of R3-Alpha that will somehow go and fix things in its own way and hence fragment the effort".
earl has admin access on it (after a long period of nebulousness about if he did or not) and authority to maintain it but has not exercised this authority, but now exercised it to make a canon place to put the CureCode import.
had the authority been clearly delegated earlier, when he had time, more might have been done...
 
@HostileFork Yeah, I guess that the Ren/C and Atronix forks will merge but the effort is already fragmented enough otherwise.
 
If Ren-C and Atronix merge, and if the core build can get slimmed down to the sizes of the mainline ones or smaller...and be more complete and faster...I believe that the logical choice of making it the shared Rebol3 will be made. But that's down the road. Right now all we need is a forwarding link and a little bit of updated activity on the rebol/rebol repository to say "go look over there" and that's enough of a nod to make it as official as it needs to really be
And a bit of political reigning in so that misguided efforts to immortalize R3-Alpha and work on enhancements based on that code there are curbed.
 
#Rebol 2 port binding to multiple IPs #Tech #Internet #Programming http://abizy.com/p/view.html?url=http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34779063/rebol-2-port-binding-to-multiple-ips
#Rebol 2 port binding to multiple IPs: #HowTo http://abizy.com/p/view.html?url=http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34779063/rebol-2-port-binding-to-multiple-ips
#Rebol 2 port binding to multiple IPs #Tech http://abizy.com/p/view.html?url=http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34779063/rebol-2-port-binding-to-multiple-ips
 
11:46 PM
We have been teh spammed.
 
0
Q: Rebol 2 port binding to multiple IPs

fsteffI have a Windows setup with multiple IP's, and wishes my Rebol script (on Rebol/Core 2.78) to make individual bind and listen to the same port number on each of those IP's. Until very recently I thought the syntax to do this was: Port1Test: open/lines tcp://:80 browse http://10.100.44.6? Port...

 
Then take over Red and merge.
 
@Morwenn That's someone else's job, later. My part will be done before that.
 
:p
 
@Morwenn I've got a pretty crazy static analysis project where I am taking a single C pointer type and building type aliases for it ... so typedef TYPE *PTYPE1;, typedef TYPE *PTYPE2;, etc... then these are objects in the C++ build
 
11:55 PM
@HostileFork Not certain what's happening here, but I suspect someone has attached themselves to the tag.
 
So the C build is none the wiser, but each of the pointer objects in the C++ build has different privileges for what it can do. e.g. some can't be incremented or decremented, some offer an access method that others do not. Then there's a game in place of what you can do with which one and how to transform them.
 
@HostileFork That's evil.
 
And of course, since C only has *foo = *bar, if you want to trap certain kinds of assignments in the type system you have to have dereference produce "source" and "sinks" and have them go to their legal places
If you don't want the bits of a PTYPE1 going in a certain way to PTYPE2 but have other legal applications.
It's the only way I can think of to check something I want to do on a codebase of this size, to make sure a certain set of rules is followed. C programmers are used to going "oohhh, you have to do X before you do Y" and then just thinking they can remember to do X before Y
Of course they mess it up, but I call them "cowboy coders"
Yee haw
@Morwenn The rules relate to checks for this: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/wiki/…
 

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