« first day (1898 days earlier)      last day (1882 days later) » 

1:16 AM
@HostileFork TSB 2 TSH 16 TSM 64 (for 'mail' or 'mime' where that encoding is commonly found) or TSX 64; also TBB, TBH, TBM for going from corresponding base-encoded values to binary.
@HostileFork I guess that's a concern—if the (albeit lazy) reviewer above were to hit rebol.com, there's little to indicate that there is community activity pushing the language forward. Red or Ren/C.
 
@rgchris Is the form of base64 that Rebol uses specifically the one in MIME, I'd guess? There are different ones IIRC.
It's not bad if I asked you "how is that encoded" and someone said "MIME encoded" and that's what it meant
Any luck with the FFI?
Oh you commentated
You invoke the makefile with "make"
 
@HostileFork As far as I'm aware, but not certain.
 
Note that doing make -f makefile.boot again will helpfully overwrite your changes
I don't churn it too often for personal convenience, hence lazy about reorganizing files... I'll leave empty files with a note "sweep this in the next change that requires a make -f makefile.boot"
Because I fiddle with the makefile locally
 
Doing 'make' doesn't produce a new binary.
Hm, maybe it does but the date in the boilerplate is wrong...
Still says 'This Rebol build wasn't linked with libffi features'.
 
1:38 AM
@rgchris Ah, right, make clean first. Always make prep then make clean when merging up or making changes requiring a regeneration of the C files. Or make top I believe.
make top I think may do it all
(I don't do it from the command line much, and when I do I just sort of instinctively do make prep make clean make and it rolls off the fingers. I clearly have little concern about typing. :-)
But usually when I'm at the command line it's because I really do want it just to do an incremental make (I'm configured to do full builds most of the time because of how often changing a function prototype requires it, and it doesn't take long enough to build for me to care)
The dependency analysis in GNU and old-style unix make is already very manual and poor, and Rebol's build process makes it poorer-er; it has less information. But one thing it doesn't know about is if you change the makefile itself, how to cope. CMake is much better about this kind of thing.
 
I have the files in /usr/local/opt/libffi/lib but says it can't find ffi.h
 
Perhaps I missed an include line...
 
../src/core/t-routine.c:108:14: fatal error: 'ffi.h' file not found
    #include <ffi.h>
 
Yup I left it out. Go to the end of your I= -I$(INCL) ... and try something like -I/usr/local/opt/libffi/lib/libffi-3.0.13/include
 
2:01 AM
Ok, that seems to have done it. Getting a new error trying to make a routine. Back in a sec.
 
@rgchris There is an example or two around... qsort.r calls quicksort... might try that first... there's a test-ffi.r but I haven't tried that one
It's important to have FFI abilities but with these things I really want to think about how they can be optional things you can pull in, dynamically ideally. So me being forced to look at it is a good test case of asking that question about how something like an FFI interface could be added after-the-fact. I can see what parts are easy and what is stuck in there and tough to throw "over the wall" as I said.
To me, it folds in with user-defined types
 
2:26 AM
@rgchris @johnk I have said it a lot, and people haven't said as much back about it, but I am pretty convinced that OBJECT (or MAKE-OBJECT, or OBJECT*, or OBJECT=> or whatever form of non-nounage we might be able to agree upon as the object maker) should be arity 2.
I am leaning toward saying that it not be called OBJECT the noun, and that FUNCTION not be called function the noun, and that there be "another solution"
You'd be able to import those quickly and easily, as they wouldn't be defined as anything else... "free for user use", and if that's how you wanted to use them you could.
But I think it sets a poor example, and is a slippery slope, and it should be backed off of with things like MAP etc.
func+ or +func might loosely mean "add this function to the universe" :-/
function: +func [a] [print ["I think the noun is better for some local function value"]]
map: +map [a 1 b 2]
function: function* [a] [print {dunno, dunno}]
I think perhaps that make-func and make-function have not been given full consideration.
It's tough, to not cripple the appearance.
 
2:46 AM
@HostileFork They're both Win/Linux :) I've been trying with SQLite without success:
library: make library! switch/default fourth system/version [
	2 [%/usr/lib/libsqlite3.dylib]
	3 [%sqlite3.dll]
][%libsqlite3.so]

version: make routine! reduce [
	[return: [uint64]]
	library
	"libversion"
]
Result is:
** Script error: invalid argument: "libversion"
** Where: make do either either either finish-rl-start
** Near: make routine! reduce [
    [return: [uint64]] library
    "l...
 
@rgchris Not familiar lately with sqlite, but looks like the routine is called "sqlite_libversion". Like, that's the string name of the routine.
 
Ach, never mind—forgot the "sqlite3_" prefix.
 
@rgchris Get your version back?
 
I've got what I think is a pointer.
 
SQLITE_EXTERN const char sqlite3_version[];
String, I believe the FFI can stringize that for you.
Or binary-ize it for you so you can string-ize it
 
3:05 AM
@HostileFork I think that's what's going on here: gir.r (STRINGFY function) but not quite sure how to adapt it.
 
@rgchris Yup, strlen is the C library thing that you give a byte pointer to, it looks ahead for a zero byte, tells you how many bytes it found before that "null terminator". You should certainly have a "libc" on your system somewhere...
(There's no -lc on the LIBS makefile line because libc is added implicitly. -lm is for math.)
 
Ok, that worked!!
 
@DaviddenHaring @ShixinZeng ^-- You have a new user! :-)
 
3:21 AM
@rgchris Cool. Did you pick sqlite because you want to do something with it, or is it just an example?
 
Both. The library is widely available and I've used it before. And there's stuff I want to do with it :)
 
I'll tell you that it's probably the case that Ren-C is going to be the much much easier bet for integration than LibFFI, longer term. It's easier for Ren-C code enabled to speak Rebol to do the brokering than for Rebol to speak C. But if you want to do no C programming and no C compiling, the FFI will be the only way to go about that.
However, with the TCC concept, the compiling might well be invisible. Who knows. Would be helpful to have more people in the ecology trying things and finding out.
 
Would it be possible to make it easier to get the FFI build out the box even if it's not the default?
 
@rgchris Often possible to make things easier :-) We have not one, not two, but three alternative makefile initiatives...two CMake based, one Rebol-building-itself-by-driving with rebol... build.reb
build.reb is the direction I am most interested in, which when combined with a TCC-empowered Rebol (e.g. a linked Rebol that could act like tcc if it wanted) would mean no toolchain, no GNU make, no CMake, nada and you can bootstrap
 
Mouth watering.
Also, can I still build a Linux binary on OS X with FFI?
 
3:29 AM
But it would be cool if that was not ruling out the generative makefile approach as an option. I think @earl is ready to see GNU make perish from the earth more or less, which is interesting considering he wants us to stay C89 compatible... :-) The CMake option is nice for various reasons, to be able to generate things like IDE files and do all the proper dependency analysis stuff CMake does...
Shixin took a crack at CMake and earl's had a crack at it, and I think the thing is that every time you start walking off in these directions you get further from the "nice picture" of what we've got now, like %systems.r...
Don't want the spec of the build to get too cluttered up by the complexity of the generator.
For instance, here's an example of what started happening to systems.r in Shixin's attempt to bridge it to CMake: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/pull/54/…
We want to reign that in and keep cleaning, and I think definitely think of build.reb as the "main initiative". The crufty old make make has at least kept the idea of going too far afield in check too far by representing a baseline of "it shouldn't be worse than this"
@rgchris You could build a linux binary on OSX before? :-/ I dunno why you'd want to given how easy it is to configure linux to build things. But that OS/X libffi.dylib or whatnot will likely not give you things a linux would be happy with, no. I don't spend time with cross-compilers but generally I think they have to have separate lib copies for the cross-compiled OS... you'd have to find a linux one and tell the cross compiler where that was
 
@HostileFork Uh, don't remember :/
Probably not.
 
Building on linux is very easy
 
Need to set up a Linux VM.
 
@rgchris You're going to be all the stars on the wall. Yes, do this.
The boring but easy suggesting would be Ubuntu, lowest common denominator. They did do some insane things like take some payoff so that when you type into the search box for programs on the "start bar" and type TERMINAL the first thing that comes up is not the command terminal, but the movie "The Terminal" starring Tom Hanks. Nuts.
Someone Somewhere Thought This Was A Good Idea and That Person Needs Help
The Kubuntu alternative has worked for me well enough, as a KDE choice, which I prefer. kubuntu.org
It is not "hip" or "cool" or considered to be the power user's KDE distribution at this point in time. But it works well enough.
And it is Qt based so that also works for me.
 
@HostileFork I get your point here, be nice avoid the awkward hyphenation though. How about NEW that takes a word as an argument and switches on that: new function [...][...] (although NEW isn't a verb either).
 
3:46 AM
That is an interesting abuse, that doesn't solve the function: new function [...] [...] problem in a terribly pleasing way, and it's hard to think what dispatch it would use besides calling function. Still, interesting thought.
An odd way to avoid an !
 
Well, was about to suggest !, although then you can't distinguish FUNC and FUNCTION.
 
Actually that is interesting, because it suggests a line of thinking as yet perhaps not explored.
 
How about a tag! new <function> [...][...]
 
Creates a tag-to-thing mapping problem we probably don't want and lexically out of it, no I was thinking about the general thing
 
new <function locals="gather"> [...][...] ; trolling
 
3:48 AM
like... we know MAKE FUNCTION! [...] has this single arity problem, and whatever FUNCTION is has to sort of bounce to using MAKE FUNCTION!, going from arity 2 to 1
Just trying to reason about what could happen if FUNCTION were arity 2 but didn't make the function itself, but a package passed to make
Think macro.
So FUNCTION is an arity-2 macro that returns a block
 
create: make function! [[type [datatype!] spec [block!] body [block!]][make :type reduce [spec body]]
 
Well, just returns a block I guess. However it returns a block it returns it.
e.g. function isn't a function generator... it's a make-spec generator
That also makes them easier to chain, compose, modify
Because all your function generators defer to that final moment of make to make them for reals
Dunno about the new vs. make distinction, new is shorter and a lighter word, but also you might want it for old: new:. Not verbish enough.
 
function: func [spec [block!]][func [body [block!]][append reduce [spec] body]]
 
Ah problem is that make is arity 2 right, hum
 
(used func as shorthand)
Yeah, would work if REDO was a thing.
 
3:57 AM
That's kind of a shame and maybe that's where a composer that can package it all up is needed, a single arity make.
new could be that.
foo: new function [spec] [body]
=> foo: new [function! [spec] [body]]
Or => foo: new [function! [[spec][body]]]
This makes much more sense than what's happening now, albeit it doesn't solve the "give me back my noun" problem
And as mentioned, it means you have a habit in your generators of not doing that last step and assuming what you want is to have it generated for you without a chance to add a bit more
Right now any modifications you want to make have to always jump the gun, find a way to see if you can slip into their spec and body model something they'll interpret acceptably. This gives you two points...you can still try it that way, and if that doesn't work for you modify the output before passing on
Notationally this doesn't work for some things... foo: new does [...]
But that's okay, given that this isn't suggesting it be the only way, it can co-exist with make as well
FUNC coexists with MAKE FUNCTION! today
And given that FUNC is a native that doesn't give you a chance to mess with the spec, it may not wind up as fitting for modification either. :-/
I think that MACRO! is going to start shifting a few things around, and the EXPR "evaluator API" also. New parts in the box to think about. Each time new parts come, I think new thoughts tend to come about how to see old things.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:41 AM
Howdy. Is this still the place to check what new things are going on?
3
 
Hi Carl. Yes, it is :-) Some ppl still dwell at Altme Rebol4 world, Red uses gitter.im/red/red , and for R3, it is manily this SO channel ....
 
Hi Pekr. It's been a while. Are you over in CZ?
Do you stay in touch with Doc K and red?
Popped over to gitter... not familiar with it. Is that supposed to be an SO competitor?
Getting late here, will check back later in the week.
 
Yes, still in CZ ...
We held small Redcon here in Cz (Doc, Earl, Cyphre, Rebolek, Oldes and me), sometimes in January. It was really encouraging. Red is nearing 0.6.0, which introduces (for the first time in Rebol) native widgets UI wrapper (implements abstracted View engine though).
As for R3, Hostilefork is doing some cleanup plus new stuff, it is called Ren-C. Atronix did very nice UI, their system is called ZOE and they are now implementing OpenGL backend with automatic fallback to AGG. youtube.com/watch?v=xj1CEU2RlBg&feature=youtu.be
As for Gitter, it is similar to Altme, what do I miss though is, that the rooms are not related, it is not enclosed world. It is different than SO, can have private chats, multiple rooms, etc. But - it is not the only system out there, we investigated also some other options, bu so far, settled with Gitter.
This SO channel is nice in that regard, that guys linked various feeds here - Altme Announcement group, google groups messages, rebolforum messages, Curecode, Github - not sure I have it right though :-) What is also linked here are wrappers for Rebol and Red bots, so you can interactively test from here ...
 
7:55 AM
@rebol Hi, Carl. Wish you and Cindy happy year 2016. As Pekr said, people also discuss at AltMe Rebol4 world.
 
 
2 hours later…
10:23 AM
posted on January 11, 2016 by hostilefork

(Hopeful fix for #208, #211) The idea of using the lowest bit in the header of a REBVAL to indicate termination, and making it the size of a REBUPT (Rebol's uintptr_t abstraction), led to the idea of allowing pointers in data structures do this termination job as they were a sunk cost--and this would add little complexity to those structures. Though a bit sketchy in principle, suggestio

 
Help me please! How can access rebol stack frame from rebol code?
 
@giuliolunati Soon it will be more generally possible than it is now... though you have to explain exactly what you want! If you take BIND-OF on one of your locals in Ren-C, you will get a FUNCTION! if it is a FUNCTION! and an OBJECT! if it is a CLOSURE!
@giuliolunati You can use that FUNCTION! or OBJECT! as a parameter to EXIT/FROM, for instance, to return to it. Notice the source code of functions with definitional returns, how they implement it.
(They don't actually do that, but they could...that's just a representation of how an end user could achieve the effect.)
 
10:38 AM
Hi HF, I wish EXIT to "n-th call in call stack"
(Just curious, for my actual purpose try&catch is the right thing)
 
@giuliolunati backtrace gives you a list of numbered stack frames, you should HELP backtrace and see what it gives you... unfortunately FUNCTION! does not technically have the ability to do the necessary identification yet to jump across recursive frames of the same function, it would only go to the latest.
If you ask backtrace for what is at a frame level it will try the best it can, but note the debug features are new
And just for testing; I figured no harm putting them in, given that they weren't breaking any existing debugger ;-)
But then I went to go look into how to fix the foundational problem of the stack frames and making them all have unique identity, persistently, not just for the debugger but hopefully to fix the longstanding cost-of-binding problem, where CLOSURE! is good but "expensive" and FUNCTION! is bad but "cheap"
 
 
1 hour later…
12:11 PM
red> quote =>
 
@HostileFork That's very interesting.
 
 
1 hour later…
1:31 PM
red> #[a a A A "a" "a" "A" "A"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
*** Script error: map has no value
*** Where: do*
*** Stack: do-console all not unset? set do first head reduce do* _execute if all not unset? set do first head reduce do*
@giuliolunati Can you be a little more specific?
 
 
1 hour later…
2:58 PM
@giuliolunati Erm, you know the map literal in Red is #(), right? #[] is construction syntax ...
red> #(a a A A "a" "a" "A" "A")
 
@MarkI I'm not sure I understand...
 
See, now that's a bug. Because it works in tryrebol, unlike the other one (which gives: syntax error, invalid issue).
 
3:17 PM
@MarkI oh, right, thanks!
red> make map! [a a A A "a" "a" "A" "A"]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #(
    a: a
)
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== #(
    a: a
    A: A
    "a" "a"
    "A" "A"
)
 
@MarkI in Red words also are case-sensitive as keys?
 
@giuliolunati Apparently :)
 
 
2 hours later…
5:06 PM
@HostileFork If I compile it from your commit, it works.
@HostileFork Current Head breaks because of an assertion again.
 
5:41 PM
@ingo Hm... The "current head" is the commit referenced, what do you mean worked and did not?
 
This is the last commit I see on gthub: "Change termination trick to not break aliasing". With this it breaks again.
with commit 19b5c3b16172d75ac0317396a19acfb0f7cad4ea
it worked.
 
@ingo Oh, I see. Well the dumping commit had a slightly different layout to do the dump... it probably wasn't actually working, the code was just shuffled a little so you didn't see the problem yet, and would have if you ran a little while longer or compiled differently. Maybe. Hmmmm. Now what I don't know is, what could be wrong with the new commit, there's not any reason it shouldn't work that I can think of.
Can't be alignment because you're saying the version with the dump in it ran at least some, so the alignments must be correct.
(alignment being the idea that when you say something like you want a byte-sized field, then a integer-sized field, then a byte-sized field...the compiler does things to round that up or down in various ways for efficiency and/or the correctness requirements of your processor. So you don't always know from how you lay out structures what the memory will wind up like underneath)
And the debug dump when it has run has shown all good with the alignments and pointers and everything, so the only remaining issue I could think of was aliasing. I wish I had one of these machines that is failing, but the ones I have around are working!! Maybe I should try the mac build again and see if that one has trouble
What I might have to do--a step I may be missing--is force the integer field through a generic pointer-as-integer pointer variable, vs using it directly as a struct member.
Hmmm, I just realized a difference between the builds you're running and the one I am generally, you're running the optimized builds! I'm running a debug build!
Duh. Okay, let me see what I get when I turn off the debug
The bugs that only show up in the optimized builds are the best kind of bug. (Wait, did I say 'best'? I meant the opposite.)
And you are running a "debug" build (in the assertion sense, everyone is, for now, hopefully)...just not with full "debug" settings (e.g. your optimizations are at -O2 not -O0)
 
5:59 PM
r3: ../src/core/m-stacks.c:281: Push_Ended_Trash_Chunk: Assertion `(((!((&chunk->values[num_values])->header.all & 0x02) || ((((&chunk->values[num_values])->header.all & 0xFC) >> 2) != REB_TRASH || ((((&chunk->values[num_values]))->header.all & (1 << ((EXT_TRASH_SAFE) + 16))) ? TRUE : FALSE) )) ? (void) (0) : __assert_fail ("!((&chunk->values[num_values])->header.all & 0x02) || ((((&chunk->values[num_values])->header.all & 0xFC) >> 2) != REB_TRASH || ((((&chunk->values[num_values]))->header.all & (1 << ((EXT_TRASH_SAFE) + 16))) ? TRUE : FALSE) )", "../src/core/m-stacks.c", 281, __PRETTY_FUN
 
I'll reiterate that to anyone testing performance. First, don't test performance... yet. But if you do, change the makefile to take the asserts out via adding -DNDEBUG to the RFLAGS and HFLAGS. But don't. :-)
 
^- this is the assertion I get on the last commit, the one before is OK, as is the "debug" commit.
I am just make -f makefile.boot
 
@ingo Yup, that's the same problem. And like I say, "OK" is probably illusory.
 
nothing special
just doing
 
Okay, well, it's now starting to be officially a mystery what it could be unhappy about, but I did realize that the optimization settings are probably an issue
@ingo For the sake of argument, why don't you go in your makefile and look at the lines that say RFLAGS and HFLAGS. You should see it say -O2 on those lines. Change to -O0 on both lines (O zero)
This is in the /make directory. Then type make clean at the command line and then type make
See if the executable you get after that has the same problem
I can see about going by way of a proxy pointer; it may be necessary to convince the compiler that it really needs to do a flush to memory before a read, if that is indeed the issue. If I've done no conversions to the pointer, it may not believe that necessary
 
6:05 PM
RFLAGS= -c -D$(TO_OS_BASE) -D$(TO_OS_NAME) -DREB_API $(RAPI_FLAGS) $I
HFLAGS= -c -D$(TO_OS_BASE) -D$(TO_OS_NAME) -DREB_CORE $(HOST_FLAGS) $I
@HostileFork That's what I see, should I add it?
Sadly I'll have to run really soon now ...
 
@ingo Hm, do you see any -O2 in the file anywhere?
 
@HostileFork ... yes, here ...

RAPI_FLAGS= -m32 -DENDIAN_LITTLE -DHAS_LL_CONSTS -O2 -fvisibility=hidden
HOST_FLAGS= -DREB_EXE -m32 -DENDIAN_LITTLE -DHAS_LL_CONSTS -O2 -fvisibility=hidden -D_FILE_OFFSET_BITS=64
 
@ingo Okay well change any -O2 you see to -O0, then exit, make clean and make
I guess I must have manually moved them to HFLAGS instead of HOST_FLAGS, etc. at some point, in my local makefile
If this doesn't change anything, then I'm definitely confused
 
@HostileFork It does change something, this way it works.
 
Okay, that makes sense then. If you have long enough to check one thing, I have an idea if you can put the makefile back...
 
6:12 PM
@HostileFork But I definitely have to run now, catch you tomorrow, and hopefullay with a little more time at my hands ...
 
Well, all right... thanks for the repro again...
I'll try and think on it, because I really want to do this somehow and make it "legal"
 
@HostileFork You're welcome, tell me what to test, and I'll try tomorrow.
 
Guess it's time to resurrect my mac build just to see if I can get anything around here to do this for me.
@Morwenn If you have two structures in memory which are not of the same structure type, but have a common field at a common position that is of the same field type, and you try to interpret the same structure at the common position... is there a semantic difference between taking the address of a field before an access vs. not, or...something?
It seems if they're of the same type, you can get a pointer in your hand, and once you have that pointer in your hand you could give it to anyone to read or write from.
 
@HostileFork I think it's how CPython handles inheritance.
 
So let's say struct Foo { int x; float y; } and struct Bar { int x; float y; }... that's if however it works out the addresses line up, is there a difference between having a Foo* and picking foo->x even though it was written via a Bar.x ... or going through an intermediate pointer?
 
6:26 PM
@HostileFork Found it. It may help if your use is similar.
 
Will it make different assumptions, like "oh, I see you are reading from a foo pointer, I know no foo pointers have been written and you are dereferencing that..." vs. *cast(int *, &foo->x)
 
I don't know.
 
Having trouble with this line specifically:
Got some structs with uintptr_t at their head in an array
The last "array member" is one that I want cut short, in the sense that its "header" is actually the size member of its container that it's running along, also a uintptr_t
So it's not a full array member, it checks the header to see "oh I'm terminal, data's no good" so it doesn't keep looking past that size that's going to be even.
(It's checking the even/oddness of the last bit)
That macro reads the last bit: even or odd. And we just wrote 0 into size.
0 is an even number last I checked.
But something about the optimized build is not thinking it has to refetch after that assignment--except not on any machine I have--and it's testing garbage for some people.
I know once you turn it into a uintptr_t* (REBUPT is Rebol's equivalent, aliased to uintptr_t on builds with C99)... then it has to enforce coherence even though the types are different of the enclosing structures through which it's being read/written.
@Morwenn If you want to sympathy upvote me to 0 here for asking the initial question, where I'd actually read about relative portability of this before trying, and now am adapting to always use intptr and work around it...
But it's the sort of thing that makes one not want to ask people anything. Hate those types.
 
6:42 PM
Fun question.
 
@Morwenn Making it always a uintptr_t that's written and read should make that legal-able, right?
If you want to try the current build and see if it's legal-able on your machine that would be helpful. Works on all mine.
(it's a uintptr_t now, which is less convenient because the pattern to carve out of "stuff" has to be chopped and put into uintptr_t... sizes in half and half masks, etc.)
 
IIRC uinptr_t is optional.
 
The pointer was easy because there were already those as pointer-sized things and no additional work
Yeah we use REBUPT
Abstracts it
 
Ok.
 
Or do you mean intptr_t vs. uintptr_t ?
 
6:46 PM
Both.
 
Yeah, well that's why it's a REBUPT
Or more generally, it doesn't take that kind of thing for granted
Some people with -O2 builds are reporting problems, -O0 fixes apparently
 
I will try to build the beast again.
 
Well, the beast is Ren Garden :-) and I don't know if that is in a building state right now (I should check!). In fact I will check that right now.
 
Well, of course the biggest beast is Ren Garden: it already builds on two other beasts :p
Building...
Meanwhile I've managed to implement the Ford-Johnson merge-insertion sort. I couldn't find any implementation online.
@HostileFork Ok, it fails with some errors but it still managed to created r3.exe. The errors happen at the very when it tries to call dir r3.exe which obviously fails since I ran the make command from Git Bash.
 
There's a dir r3.exe ? That's a by-hand hack of mine to try and remove the strip from the makefile so things still have debug symbols... I'd be surprised if you have it unless I messed something up
Maybe the windows build is different and I haven't looked in a while
Well, indeed it looks like a dir made it in there from makefile.boot. Hmm
 
7:00 PM
@HostileFork No, it tries to call the Windows command dir on r3.exe.
 
Actually maybe that was always there
 
Oh, I think I misinterpreted your sentence.
 
And it's LS I add on unix if I want to bypass the strip, that's by hand, for the same reason...though on windows I guess the reason is "no commonly available strip tool"
So does it run?
 
It runs without a problem.
 
Usually I don't say "darn" but, darn
 
7:02 PM
Except a character enconding problem, but I guess that it can't really be solved in the Windows console.
> Language: français
 
Definitely a bug but Ren Garden aside, we want a whole new console solution anyway
Well so yours works, mine works, but these reports come in about it having some kind of problem with that write and read back. Writing to a struct Reb_Chunk's size REBUPT field, and then reading it back via a REBVAL*'s ->header.all REBUPT field
Both REBUPT pointers, both at the same point in memory. So question is: any way to make that legal.
One way: turn those into chars and rebuild the numbers. :-/
The thing I'm having a hard time getting my head around is that if they are both fundamentally REBUPT pointers, then I was under the impression that was enough to force coherence, if written through a REBUPT pointer and read via one as well...but what I don't know is if -> accessing them somehow blesses it not as a REBUPT access but in the list of readers/writers as being access via that struct
Which leads to the "that can't be true" idea that *(REBUPT*, &foo->bar) = baz; act differently than foo->bar = baz when bar is a REBUPT.
That must be a canon "are these exactly the same in meaning" question for that out there
Still thinking in terms of my cast() instead of ()()
 
The mysterious ways of C, implementation-defined behaviour, pointers and architectures.
Use Java, you won't have the problem.
 
7:17 PM
If I don't program at all I won't have the problem. In fact, many problems would probably go away if I just took the computer down to the pawn shop and saw what they'd give me for it... and never went back...
@Morwenn What if I tried writing it through both pointers before trying the read? :-/
 
Haha, I really don't know. When it comes to stuff like pointers, you already know more than I do :p
 
Well, I used to know a lot, before they started changing all this stuff.
It was a simpler time.
I need to get out some Turbo C and ask questions about something, then get yelled at for using Turbo C, then answer questions from an alternate account showing some demonstrably clever solution to whatever I asked about and making it appear there's a parallel universe where Turbo C has become the dominant compiler and this universe is colliding with StackOverflow.
Mock up fake screenshots as if they are that Turbo C
Make the OS look very alien
Have a pseudo web browser in the background with parallel universe news stories behind the code screenshot
 
7:40 PM
@HostileFork Haven't extensively tested, but changing the two -O2 references seemed to nix the error message.
 
@rgchris Sigh, yup. Okay, well I have another test for you, so put those back :-)
 
'K
 
@HostileFork That would require quite a bit of work.
 
@Morwenn As in diorama when Strong Bad laments that it's hard to cheat these days, because when you make up the book you're reporting on you also have to make up the fake website for the book, the fake publishing company... at the end, you might as well go ahead and write the whole book.
 
Haha :D
 
7:47 PM
posted on January 11, 2016 by Nick

I read this article today: http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2015/11/11/most_developers_never_seen_successful_project/ I've started *experimental* personal (toy) projects which were abandoned due to my own lack of ongoing interest, but I can't imagine going into a situation in which the core business software was allowed to fail.  That's never happened in my experience. &

 
@rgchris Will be a bit, so no need to hang on the keyboard or anything...
 
Phew, was holding off on that cup of tea...
 
I don't want to give up on this trick because it's too cool to not do.
The current application is not significant really, it's just a field test for the real application, so good to be getting the data.
@rgchris Give this a try. Writes both ways. Make sure -O2 is back on.
 
I can just do: git pull; git checkout coverity_scan; make -f makefile.boot right?
 
Errrm, you should checkout master
coverity_scan is very out of date
 
8:01 PM
Oh, then I apply the patch to that file?
 
Er, what?
 
I think I'm reading the GitHub page wrong—that's a commit to master?
 
I don't know what the coverity_scan branch has to do with the current discussion.
 
Not enough sleep.
 
Nope. :-)
 
8:04 PM
Ok—as far as I can tell, that worked.
 
Ok, well, that's good news. Let's see if it helps our other repro'ers
I don't mind doing something that works on 98% of systems as long as on those 98% of systems it works 100% of the time--and that there's a known solution for the 2% that may be less efficient.
Problematic architectures and configurations will always exist, and you don't necessarily get to call yourself "safe" just because you "wrote to the standard".
You might have to work around a bug in a compiler, or even in a chip (as some of us here are old enough to remember that math coprocessor bug from Intel)...
 
8:38 PM
>> load "{{{^^}}}"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/syntax-invalid.html
    *** ERROR
** Syntax error: invalid "string" -- "{{{^^}}}"
** Where: to case load
** Near: (line 1) {{{^}}}
 
That's right!
>> load "{{{^^}}}}"
Oops. That's right too!
@RebolBot delete
Sorry for the inconvenience!
 
>> get quote (1 + 2)
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== (1 + 2)
 
I propose that should be 3 (if it's anything)
I don't know if it should be anything. I feel perhaps the focus of GET should be narrowed, but... if that is to be interpreted as "location from which to get a value" in the way a word might, or a get-word might, then the location is the GROUP! and the value is 3.
 
8:50 PM
@HostileFork Good job, crash not reproducible. I closed 211.
 
@GregP Okay, well, it may not hold up forever but I sort of find it hard to believe a real compiler in the real world we live in would be able to get that wrong. As there is a standards-oriented char-by-char hack for a worst case scenario, I'm not worried about depending on it...and worser case scenario, write that bit in assembly. :-)
It's within the information limit and that's what I'm concerned about.
 
@HostileFork not related to 211: is Ren-C supposed to work with R3 extension ?
 
@GregP Glad it worked, keep us in the loop regarding your forum work and any needed support...or if you're coding and it brings to mind features you want. Note the test issue database completed import successfully so once that gets reimported for real, there will be places to bring up old issues again...or resolve them...
 
@HostileFork sure, hopefuly I should find a little bit of time for the forum :)
 
@GregP It wasn't supposed to intentionally not work, and I don't really even know what constitutes an R3-Extension, but I will tell you that Ren-C is about to have its C API. That means you will write something like Ren_C_Do(REN_LOAD("parse"), some_data_in_a_c_var, REN_LOAD("[some x some y your rules here]"), END_VALUE); etc.
 
8:56 PM
@HostileFork I think that a way to look at "location" is that if you can't SET it, then it is not a location, and consequently you can't usefully GET it.
 
@MarkI Good point on the leaning of my desire to prohibit it in general, I'll put that in the "don't allow it" column.
 
@HostileFork It is about this rebol.com/r3/docs/concepts/extensions.html but I'm pretty sure you know that already.
 
I know RXIARGs and such and I hate them passionately, so if that's what you're talking about, yes... those are going to be very dead in Ren-C :-)
They shouldn't purposefully be dead yet, but they will be.
If they're not working now that's an accident, and I'd have thought Shixin would have had it fixed...so if you have a specific bug report you might ask him.
But they will be not working on purpose in the future when they are not there.
 
Why do you hate them passionately ?
Is FFI better?
 
@GregP It's just the maintenance of a parallel API that's not very good and forces opaque type aliases on things. In order to avoid exporting all of Rebol's header details, it has a version of it where the pointers are void*s and passes that around...it's a bad kind of opacity because it still has to be sync'd up with the offsets and changes as you rearrange the structure.
So inside Rebol you might have struct Foo { int x; int y; Bar* bar; } and then, because of a lack of a desire to export Bar's definition to the client, a struct Foo_Opaque { int x; int y; void *bar; } gets exported.
Two places to maintain those definitions, and now two sets of routines...a parallel API, that whenever it gets crippled by the void *s has to make a function call to inspect it, but it reads the other values because it thinks it can.
Then you have macros... FOO_GET_X( ) has one copy you update inside to get foo->x, then FOO_GET_X_OPAQUE( ) for the API version.
Then you add or remove a field to Foo, have to remember to do it in the Foo_Opaque file too.
Then someone gets the clever idea to write a shared macro that does something with bar, where it has to work across both cases...whether bar is void* or Bar*
So the shared macro speaks the lowest common denominator of void*, but then inside extraction code it casts it to a Bar* if it's in the core.
It's junk.
 
9:10 PM
ok, I get the main lines even if I don't know well enough the current R3 implementation.
what about FFI? Any drawbacks?
 
I have a few different angles of attack on it.
Well, FFI is fine if you want to call a library that isn't Rebol aware, and you speak to it in its native terms.
If you want to write a Rebol extension, something that is C code that knows how to dismantle a series and put one back together again, then FFI is not a good way to do that.
Rebol values have already been dismantled and put into a format the C can speak, you've lost your series and positions and insertion points and all that.
Ren-C is supposed to be the C API you use to write Rebol Extensions, and it does that by virtue of making the guts Rebol uses itself clean and friendly and efficient all around.
It's not a stable API at this point, hence when important changes are made...and you merge up...your extensions must be rebuilt.
But increasingly it is a good API, about to get even gooder.
 
@HostileFork I will try :)
 
At some point parts of it might be so gooder that they are unchanging enough to be considered stable.
@GregP Well, right now the main practice you get with Ren-C is working on the interpreter core or Ren-C++ because Ren-C is not itself library packaged yet.
@GregP Ren-C++ is, it makes libs and everything, and nicely documented CMake file and all that
So ultimately it will be a stack, such that Ren-C is a lib, and then Ren-C++ uses that. But it's in steps because first, Ren-C++ just stole obj files out of Rebol and did a bunch of crazy stuff to get itself to work.
That crazy stuff is part of what informed a long basic rewrite of many many things, tackling outstanding problems along the way, flattening it down until there's basically no Rebol service code in Ren-C++...it is just an exposure of what's in Ren-C
 
9:27 PM
@HostileFork I will need to practice to understand better. It sounds good, but then I need to get hands inside!
 
@GregP I have been (and continue to work) on making it so that people who run up against questions or interests can... Modify with Confidence!
There would be little point if the groundwork were not enabling more people to come, develop, and enhance.
@GregP For instance, this is pretty readable, right? If you need to change the spec of that native, you change it right there... in the comment and rebuild. Or what about something more internal... source for Compose_Values_Throws? Readable, right?
Could be better (what's a DS_PUSH?) but it's one thing at a time. I'll suggest anyone with experience trying to go into R3-Alpha give Ren-C a try, especially after the next wave of changes.
And it's not just more readable, tons and tons of fundamental problems being addressed.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:33 PM
@HostileFork what do you think about words as keys in maps? Red treats they case-sensitively, but I don't like that
 
@giuliolunati Wouldn't the same idea of storing case-sensitively but looking up case insensitively apply, then use /CASE for case sensitive? (We will call /CASE => /STRICT in Ren-C, assuming no major changes to the model which would need something else... it is thinking about the model that has held off the change so far.)
@giuliolunati Do be sure now and again to follow up after you ask things, because you were asking about stacks and backtraces and then I get to wondering "what happened? Did it work?" :-)
 
oh, right, sorry!
backtraces/only gives me blocks, not frames, so I can't use they with exit/from...
(No matter however)
@HostileFork About words in maps: how can check in C if 2 words are equal case-sensitively and insensitively?
 
@giuliolunati You should be able to say backtrace/function/at 3 or something IIRC (not running atm) and that give you a function, maybe look again?
@giuliolunati The code is always more than it should be but look at Compare_Word, it is already possible...
>> 'foo == 'FOO
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== false
 
See what strict-equal? passes in (REBNATIVE(strict_equal_q))
That is the method MAP! should use
 
10:51 PM
@HostileFork ok, tx! :-)
@HostileFork case-sens -> compare VAL_WORD_SYM , case-insens -> compare VAL_WORD_CANON
 
Yep.
@johnk Notice there are no issues up yet in rebol GitHub, is RebolBot having performance anxiety? :-)
 
11:10 PM
@HostileFork just finding free time to run it in one hit. I plan to kick it off tonight. We need to let @dockimbel know as well so he can put up a message on curecode once it is complete. I'll try and drop him a message over on gitter
 
@johnk Great. Up to him whether to put up a redirect link or make it a link at the top with the rest locked read-only...but forwarding would be helpful as there are links "out there" so it would be nice to have the forwards up at least long enough for the search engines to find.
From now on when speaking about issues we'll just say #xxx - this is a problem with Ren-C issue discussion, for the moment we will assume the Ren-C issues are transitional and "non-information bearing" generally.
So (everyone) should avoid putting information in them that is design related
It seems like we're going to need some kind of performant way to rename or remap parameters on natives. I'll have to think about that when I think about specialization, which is coming up soonly.
 
11:56 PM
Finally got around to making the little %r2r3-future.r ugly hack placeholder into a little migration dialect. Compared to what it was before, that's a portrait of reform if I ever saw one...
3
 

« first day (1898 days earlier)      last day (1882 days later) »