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7:01 PM
@JoeWatkins you say never as a general word for very, very, very rarely.
 
you would have said ten years ago that php would never get strict anything at all ....
 
Anonymous
Yes, It's supposed to fetch and extract data from an array, but you are just giving it the final product. It's like list($foo, $bar) = [$foo, $bar] .. If you have $foo, and $bar to begin with, you don't need list()
 
Anonymous
But, that's just my opinion @Abe :P
 
Abe
@samayo how can you think that is how i intend to use it? :P clearly it would be list(Bar $bar, Baz $baz) = $array;
 
Anonymous
list(Baz $baz, Bar $bar) = [new Baz(), new Bar()];
 
Anonymous
7:03 PM
Giving it two objects, and getting two object
 
Abe
function test(array $stuff){
    list($baz, $bar) = $stuff;
    if(!$baz instanceof Baz) throw new TypeError;
    if(!$bar instanceof Bar) throw new TypeError;
}

->

function test(array $stuff){
    list(Baz $baz, Bar $bar) = $stuff;
}
 
@Abe Doesn't that need more ()?
(!($baz instanceof Baz))
 
Abe
@PeeHaa apparently instanceof has precedence over !. i found out that recently too
 
oh wow
 
Abe
in fact i also suggested @NikiC to have $baz !instanceof Bar because it's more readable :P
 
7:07 PM
Well instanceof is just weird .
 
<?php
// foo - because you should foo first ...
class Bar {}
class Baz {}

function test(Bar $bar, Baz $baz) {
	var_dump(func_get_args());
}

test(...[new Bar(), new Baz()]);
 
Abe
:D
@PeeHaa i blame java
 
Don't we all... ;-)
 
Abe
7:30 PM
> // foo - because you should foo first ... :D
 
wonder what technique would be employed?
Do you have a penis? (Y/N):
That might be around 70% accurate.
 
I'm still marveling that this thread got like 4 upvotes
 
@Abe As it should, imo.
 
@Orangepill So 30% of women have a penis? What?
 
7:44 PM
No people lie.
 
Too true. The joke in online gaming is 99% of the men are men and so are 89% of the women...
 
@LeviMorrison Should and expect php to do are two different things :P
 
I think there is probably a large percentage of women that claim to be men online just to avoid the hassle of being a woman online.
 
7:52 PM
nuked from orbit already
 
Good good
 
I just realized we have if(): endif; etc… But no function foo(): endfunction; … how was that missed…
 
God no
 
Wouldn't that break parsing of return types
 
@Orangepill no. (because the {)
 
7:55 PM
@sherif good php roundtable discussion... I really liked the comment about how design patterns are applicable at the architectural level.
 
Abe
@LeviMorrison yes
 
@bwoebi The primary reason for the alternate control was for inlining HTML. I can't think of any reason to do the same for functions
 
Abe
that was obvious, but i always wrote it using parentheses
 
@Machavity sure … inlined html snippets in functions!
 
Abe
@PeeHaa ^ for this reason. ahahha
 
7:57 PM
@bwoebi but given function foo(): how does the parser know if the next token defines a return type or the first line of the function body
 
@Abe ;)
 
@bwoebi Yeah... but shouldn't functions return stuff for neatness? Otherwise you get output all over the place
 
@Orangepill because it doesn't have to branch there yet
It only branches after that token
and there it sees { vs something else
 
I love the people showing up on internals for that short closure discussion
sigh-worthy really
 
>.<
"I'm old and don't want this newfangled nonsense anywhere near my code! Get off my lawn!"
 
8:01 PM
can;t tell if trolling or serious
 
The best kind.
 
He says "I'm 100% with Anthony Ferrara and Tony Marston on this." and then describes something totally contrary to your point!?
 
I especially enjoyed this ...
As a follower of the KISS principle I always aim to write simple, readable
code, and my critics always say "It is too simple. Proper OO is supposed to
be more complex than that".  The mark of genius is to achieve complex things
in a simple manner, not to achieve simple things in a complex manner.
nobody ever said that to you ... and only an arse hole tries to insinuate that you should listen to them because they are a genius ... shut up ...
 
@JoeWatkins have you seen his (Tony's) code? It's beautiful unlike you.
 
@JoeWatkins Wait what? That makes no sense at all. Complex is the exact opposite of simple.
I think what they mean to say is "easy" not simple.
 
8:11 PM
@nikita2206 It's from 2003 though, but wtf...
I'm afraid people find code I have written yesterday so not really fair
 
@PeeHaa ah sorry beware of some newer stuff tonymarston.net/php-mysql/radicore-tutorial5.html
 
oooooooh
lol
that radicore crap guy
Say no more
 
words, words, "soundbite", words ... I'm a genius ... word words, "soundbite" ...
 
Yeah that stuff is horrible to the point it gets scary
He should add that thing to his signature. I always ban him out of my mind so I forget what he does
 
@Orangepill Yes, mostly because design patterns derive from architecture. The reason people came up with design patterns is because they were all struggling to architect something.
 
8:15 PM
@PeeHaa its the guy who said we shouldn't remove php4 ctors (from the year 2000) in 2015 ...
 
And FWIW, I heard maybe half of that entire discussion so I had to watch it back myself to figure out what they were saying :p
 
basically… design patterns are a nice way to give people idea how to form their code… the issue with them is, when taught early, people stick with them and become uncreative.
 
My audio was horrible
 
Yeah and IIRC he was also the guy that said his thing (radicrap) was audited by a security firm...
Unless said security firm is his 5 year old son that is a lie
 
@bwoebi Very true. Honestly it shocks me that people seem to think SOA is something new. It's been around since the 1950s if you go all the way back to the first subroutine, but I'm excited that so many more people are starting to learn about architecture sooner.
I wish someone taught me about software architecture 10 years ago. I would have learned to build much better things.
 
8:19 PM
@bwoebi I am also guilty of that to some degree
 
I've had enough of today ... nite all :)
 
@JoeWatkins Good night :)
Don't fall asleep with peanutbutter in your beard again
 
@Sherif You did turn autobot a couple of times.
 
@JoeWatkins later
 
@JoeWatkins night.
 
8:22 PM
@Orangepill I was on a mifi connection. My Internet went down 30 minutes before the show.
I honestly had to guess what they were saying half the time.
 
@Sherif Actually… you can't really teach someone software architecture. You can give them a few hints how to start… but for everything else, one needs to find his own way along that. Sure, mentoring can speed this up (and most importantly diverse feedback in general)
 
@bwoebi I'd have to say George Fairbanks has done a pretty good job at proving you wrong there.
 
@samayo, @tereško, @Abe why do you mocked me? I ask a question, if you like, answer me, if you don't, there is not any compulsion. I think your behavior is not nice.
 
I really hope this guy can beat out this guy for the republican primaries.
 
8:31 PM
Software Architecture from the perspective of a Software Engineer
 
@Sajad because you made it obvious, that you have no intention in learning javascript.
 
Abe
@Sajad monopolizing a chat with a monumental amount of silly questions is not nice either
 
@Sherif well, actually that's exactly what I'm saying. You can teach the start. Which is exactly what he's doing.
 
how long does it take to be really good at PHP?
 
@user9722 depends on how you quantify really good.
 
8:33 PM
@user9722 depends on a whole lot of factors... namely what do you consider being really good at PHP
 
@bwoebi Well, you must learn before you can master.
 
i guess being really good would be being able to code on magento with no sweat.
 
@Sherif I'm totally agreeing here. But there's always still a long way from a book to mastering.
 
You spend enough time writing software and you'll eventually learn these things on your own, but wouldn't it have been nicer if someone gave you a manual and spared you the pain?
 
@user9722 that impossible to tell. It takes about a year to be proficient in any language. But to be good at any programming language, you need to be good at programming. And that can take anywhere from 2 to 5 years. Depending on how much you actually learn about architecture and design.
 
8:35 PM
I've been at it about 18 years and I feel I am very good at php ... my failings are more with architecture.
 
@user9722 "a week"
 
18 years. holy cow.
 
also depends on the person... some people think in a way that is compatible with becoming a good programmer
 
"becoming really good at framework X or cms Y" is different from "becoming a good programmer"
 
I have a habit: asking !!! before thinking, before searching, before ...! and usually I will remove my question. anyway as I said, or answer my question, or flag is for moderator (if it has inappropriate content), or do not have anything to do with my question. (however I never forget your guidance @tereško (about virtualbox))
 
8:37 PM
@bwoebi I know. I was just emphasizing. You could be spending years writing software before you even come across the realization that what you're trying to solve is an architectural problem and someone else has discovered a good style/pattern for it.
 
@tereško makes sense.
 
Of course it could still take you years more to learn all its innards and master it, but hey... What's a year worth to you!
 
@Sherif This isn't a manual. Starting from 0 is nearly impossible on its own.
 
we all build on the backs of the people that have walked the road before us... mentors and books are a very good thing or real progress is never made
 
Magento is a beast and i get very frustrated.
 
8:38 PM
there is a whole stackexchange site for that
 
@Sherif Hmm, can't remember that happened to me in the last years.
 
... same way as there is one for Wordpress
 
thanks teresko.
 
@bwoebi It's honestly the best thing I've seen by comparison. He taught a class in University of Boulder and I was just amazed how eloquently he was able to drive some points across from the perspective of someone who is a software engineer and not necessarily focused on architecture.
 
Tom
Rant: I'm being told I have to rewrite my improved version of code because it doesn't do it the same way the 3,000 line PHP file does it... So I have to undo the MVC implementation and keep dumping poop in a file... :/ Want to cry. Or search for a new job.
 
8:40 PM
All I'm saying is, I know I lost years of my life trying to learn these things on my own, and I wish I had that book then.
 
@Sherif Not sure, but I'm not regretting to not have had a book… hmm.
 
you do need to fail enough though to truly appreciate the context that the solutions are given in.
 
@Tom that's somewhat vague
 
No argument there.
 
@Orangepill Oh, I definitely like solutions, especially when doing magic…
 
8:43 PM
books lead to knowlege , experimentation results in understanding
 
Tom
@tereško A file is being used as a dump file for report code. I created an MVC setup for a new report and have to undo it because it's not how the other ones are done. Even though we all agree the MVC approach is better.
 
There's nothing wrong with filling up your knowledge coffers. That won't stop you from experimenting ;)
 
@Tom in that case, I really recommend you to start looking for better job. It seems like you are stuck in backwaters of Mordor
 
and a lot of the time reading someone else's code is better then books....
 
@Orangepill the both overlap though… but yes, reading is important. (Just that I'm not reading books about programing, rather blog posts and sometimes pdfs...)
 
8:45 PM
@Orangepill counterpoint: OpenCart
also: s/then/than
 
@Orangepill totally (as long as you're having a sense to put good and bad code apart...)
 
@Orangepill There are a lot of conceptual and design elements involved in architecture though. Code is secondary to learning that.
 
reading a book isn't helpful if you don't have the context. For example someone just starting as a web developer will get nothing out of reading the DDD big blue book. It will be years before you start to understand what is said in the book.
 
I find that very few people just get architecture on their own. Often it happens after years and years of dealing with same/similar problems that you start to really understand it.
 
But if you have a mentor. That I believe will be a completely different thing.
 
8:48 PM
architecture is definitely a hard problem.
 
much harder then programming
 
@andho Sure, but you'll still have it in the back of your head somewhere when you do get finally get it. The point is how it's delivered and to what audience that makes all the difference.
 
@andho well ... I have been noticing some people suffering from DDDitis, who started learning architecture by reading Evans' book
 
I want to use SQL but I don't have a database. What should I download?
I looked at MySQL community by Oracle but I think that's a lot more than necessary.
I don't know :s
 
.. or you weren't talking about learning SQL?
 
8:52 PM
I feel like there are usually two layers of architecture. The one is about scalability and decentralization, the other about how to shape the internal/external API. … If you know what leads to the first, it becomes much easier to wisely choose in the latter case.
 
@DonLarynx if what you need is just a RDBMSm the go either to postgresql.org or mariadb.org
 
Abe
@DonLarynx check postgresql, it's better than mysql
 
(yes, extensibility is also a point… but I rather avoid it as people often try to push that to the extreme...)
It often comes in it's own, when doing wise choices for the architecture.
 
@tereško I just want something where I can create tables and use select statements on them, along with maybe modifying them. I am looking at postgresql right now.
i need linux in my life o.o
 
@Sherif to convince beginners that architecture is important at all, I think "Pragmatic Programmer" explains it pretty well in lay man terms.
 
8:57 PM
@DonLarynx install VirtualBox an play around with some linux or bsd distro
 
@DonLarynx everyone needs linux in there life.
 
@Orangepill I dont :P
 
does this mean by "drop-in replacement"
found on this link.
 
s/linux/unix like operating system/
 
@Rafee it means that it makes no difference for the client whether you are connecting to mysql or mariadb server
it's a fork .. from pre-Oracle days
 
8:59 PM
okay. thanks
 
@andho I'm not specifically targeting beginners that don't know how to program at all. I think there needs to be some foundation there, but I don't think they need convincing as much either. Software Engineers are getting smarter about architecture. The evidence of that is the upwards trend currently evident in emerging engineering artifacts like microservices.
When you have hard problems and you're running a business that depends on scaling your solutions to those problems, you are bound to get caught in the architectural trap.
 
@Sherif (shudder) If the Software Engineering industry was mature, I would have needed to get a college degree to start programming :O
 
@andho Not sure why you think that. Traditional education is not as obviating as it used to be in today's world. We are empowered by technology that wasn't there just 20 years ago.
 
how many of you guys, prefers to work on MariaDB than MySQL.
 
@Sherif Imagine a mature industry, where you follow certain standards. Unit Tests, Orthogonal Architecture, Horizontal Scalability is all mandatory in Enterprise solutions. You need a certain time to learn all these things, and self learning (although better) takes more time than attending a school.
 
9:07 PM
@Rafee basically everyone who is aware of it. Though, majority still prefers Postgre.
 
Postgre!, why?
 
@Rafee "Enterprise Grade" **
 
@tereško so I've downloaded it. I guess I open SQL Shell (psql). Now it prompts me for Server, database, port, and username, but I have no idea what to put in these fields.
 
so, you mean MySQL and MariaDB arent well enterprise standards for use @andho
 
because PostgreSQL actually implements SQL language standard and provides ACID
 
9:10 PM
@andho All of that is true, but none of it changes the fact that today you can stand on the shoulders of geniuses and call yourself tall. I don't think you're taking into account how many shortcuts you can take in software engineering today that were just impossible not more than a few decades ago.
 
@Sherif Oh yeah. I didn't realize how easy it is to enter compared to the 80's or even 90's
 
Easier, still not easy.
 
I think I just came up with idea for a side-project
 
Anonymous
^
 
start a trade school that teaching software engineering rather than just the computer science you get at uni?
 
9:16 PM
@tereško what might that be?
 
an app in Electron (I need to play around a bit to even start talking about any of it)
 
yes
 
looks like a cool tool
 
9:21 PM
did a bit of tinkering with it about a month ago .. seemed promising
 
@sherif this is why encapsulation is important
 
@Orangepill More to the point, this is why we need more software engineers in the world.
No one person can possibly absorb all of that depth and breadth.
But it takes more people being curious about technology and science in order to create more growth in this industry. You can't just let in everyone that picked up jquery and wines and bitches on twitter when they don't get hired because they refused to do a binary tree whiteboard problem.
There's no shame in learning. Equal smarts and humility, etc...
> Without such deep support structures, you end up with the frustrating situation that we see when end users have access to a bug database that is directly used by engineers: neither the end users nor the engineers get the information that they need to accomplish their goals.
 
@Sherif great post
 
^ Also very relevant :)
 
i have noticed to that higher adoption of technology hasn't really resulted in higher interest in it.
 
9:28 PM
Meet the 13-year-old founder building an incredible tool to understand startups http://tnw.me/nQWD3IK http://t.co/ptqB7KXFaV
There's interest. How much traction it keeps up is unknown.
Higher interest from the right people is more valuable than higher general interest.
 
@Sherif fully agree
but if we need more software engineers then higher general interest is a requisite
 
@Orangepill this is perfectly normal - the higher adoption of plastics didn't push everyone into oil drilling, refining, and material sciences either
 
@Orangepill I mean, when I see you bitching on twitter for 5 straight days about how a technical interview should not include question X or Y, because airbnb hired you and that should tell me you're an awesome engineer ... what does that say about how you'll respond when faced with real problems on the job? You have to be curious and you have to have some humility to get anywhere in this business.
Those aren't the kind of people the world needs in software engineering.
We need people that care and inspire others. People that encourage learning and teaching alike.
 
@sherif ,,, I wonder who you are talking about there :D
I can't tell if that rant is about how tech interviews suck or how much is sucks to be a woman in technology.... seems muddy
 
It's a bit of both and it's very sad actually.
Because it doesn't make any good points for either.
 
9:34 PM
agreed.
 
Everyone has grievances, but there's a better way to air them without alienating the people you need the most just so that you can be surrounded by the masses that offer nothing in the way of your success.
Gen Y and our bullshit sense of entitlement eh :p
 
on a side note... what is a valid use case for reversing a binary tree?
 
@Orangepill you would just be reversing the symmetry
so it's just about using a reverse iterator.
 
Depends on whether or not it was an ordered binary tree.
s/ordered/balanced
 
@Sherif they are
by definition....
 
9:40 PM
That's not by definition actually.
I think what you're assuming is that the tree is self-balancing or that it has an implemented balance method.
And you know what they say about assumptions in this industry ;)
 
wikipedia has failed me here, .edu is not. my apologies.
 
rebalancing a binary tree I can see the use of..... but I would just walk the tree in reverse order instead of reversing the tree.
 
I think the important thing to remember in a technical interview is that really isn't your place to tell the interviewer what questions they should ask you. Otherwise, what's the point of interviewing? You might as well tell them what their hiring decision should be and what signing bonus to hand you when you decide to accept the offer you've extended yourself.
 
list($left, $right) = ['right', 'left']; tada! reversed
 
??
 
9:48 PM
@PaulCrovella That's the way that I was thinking about it. actually reversing the tree would be kinda pointless.
@sherif I know ... they make the game... you have to play by there rules.
 
@Orangepill And more to the point, if you really do know data structures well enough, how hard do you really think it's going to be to solve that problem. What's the worst that happens, you write code? God forbid.
 
I think white boarding is useful in an interview more so the interviewer can see how well you can communicate technical ideas more so then how well you can problem solve. I think that is why they focus on doing semi-trivial stuff to fundamental data structures.
 
there is anybody that has some free time ?! I need to chat with him, I have not any question, I just need to talk a bit in privet
 
@Sajad No I will not give you a blowjob.
 
@Orangepill Yes, there are a number of things interviewers look for in whiteboarding. One of them is how well you can translate an algorithm that you made up in your head into working code. Another is obviously if you understand the importance of the data structure at all. They do have to asses whether you are a good fit so the answer you give for the problem is actually far less important than those attributes.
 
9:55 PM
Only under a trade of $500.
 
@DonLarynx Only 500... let me get my wallet
 
For you it's $500,000. Sajad is just a nice guy.
 
The best whiteboarding questions are like onions. As you peel back the layers you begin to discover more and more interesting things.
 
@DonLarynx what the hell are you talking about ..
 
@Sajad We were supposed to talk about this in privet. pls stop
 
9:57 PM
@Sajad about bad jokes…
 
no no, it is not about bad thing
 
@bwoebi You know, Sara's remarks are always short and to the point, but I honestly don't think enough people give her credit.
 
@Sherif </nocontext> !?
 
@bwoebi I was referring to her response in the short closures thread.
 
who doesn't give her credit?
 
10:00 PM
@Sherif oh, let me read…
 
@PaulCrovella You weren't around for the GOTO fiasco were you?
 
neither MariaDB or psql work
I've installed both .zips, extracted them, and they dont fucking work
 
@Sherif then use the literal @bwoebi instead of referring to a previous post… that confused me totally ^^
 
@Sherif GOTO fiasco?
 
1 message moved to bin
 
10:02 PM
@Sherif wasn't following internals at the time, no
 
@bwoebi Shortcuts. One click is faster than two clicks :p
 
@Sherif Also, totally, yes. I sometimes feel people only can be impressed by walls of text (and they then do complain about too much text, lol)
@Sherif sigh, lol.
 
@Sherif some people are first class fucks...
 
10:22 PM
guys i'm sorry, i've finally done it
i have created a database using MySQL 5.6 :O:O:O Installing it was the hard part
 
@DonLarynx You might hate me for waiting to mention this, but if all you want to do is screw around with a little basic SQL locally you can use SQLite without installing anything additional at all.
 
@PaulCrovella I have SQLite but it won't let me do any SQL syntax
 
yeah so i just unpinned it from my start bar
 
wat
why do I get this strange feeling, that you have completely no fucking idea what you are doing?
 
10:38 PM
@tereško LOL
I've already created my tables and done the necessary syntax, so...
 
/me is currently listening to this in an album version
 
"This video contains content from MusicVideoDistributors, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds." le sigh
 
@PaulCrovella in that case, fuck them: rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3156707 (btw, recommended tool, if you like your music in FLAC)
.. I assume you will be able to register with little help of view-source (if you cannot read russian)
 
@tereško chrome kindly offered to translate the site for me :)
 
but yeah, that site is the best one I have found for music
if you decide to use it, you will probably need this for file splitting: cuetools.net/wiki/CUETools_Download
 
10:49 PM
Man, I haven't messed with cue sheets in a long time. Went mp3 lazy years ago.
 
well, I bought a 4TB HDD
I tend to stick with flac for music .. you can get close-to-mp3 quality from spotify
 
11:49 PM
Grrrr… invariant return type hints.... I want a generic interface (just specifying the returned interface/superclass), but have a specific signature of what I return in the implementation... (just following being lax with input and specific with output :-/)
I wish signatures could tell what exactly the function expects and returns...
 
Mornings
 
morning o/
 

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