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5:01 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes you should should really consider getting back to Twitter. ...
@Mr.kbok as rightfold would say: SSCCE or GTFO
 
@sehe I'll try to reduce tomorrow. For now I'll settle with 9999999
Awesome reporting, shitty measures lol
 
Because that was there days ago. And with explanatory message. Besides not requiring access to Facebook to view it properly
 
user1804599
Meh.
 
user1804599
I'm not sure about string interpolation.
 
user1804599
5:06 PM
More often than not I use "$x" instead of plain $x.
 
@Mr.kbok You probably need to mock out the network with a fixed time.
 
I should finish the KDE
Need house first.
 
@Puppy Why?
I'm trying to benchmark a set of unique operations from the POV of the library client (ie me)
 
Because the network has high entropy?
 
i.stack.imgur.com/9pekY.jpg my eyes have trouble finding the obvious problem on this; so much distraction that's all hard to read (as is the wretched ad itself). At some point I was wondering whether it was about"Payment"
 
5:09 PM
But I want to time the network too
 
that's pointless
that's not a benchmark, it's just "My random local conditions"
ping 8.8.8.8 can do that for you
 
Yes that's local, no that's not random
I know that the operation takes at most 200ms
 
really?
does that include what happens if Anonymous decides to DDOS your ISP?
or if key network backbones lose power?
or hell, if there's malware or a bug on the other end
 
It's an internal network. I don't care.
 
user1804599
@sehe it's a gunshop ad on a newspaper with a headline about a terrorist attack involving guns.
 
5:11 PM
@sehe the paper has an ad for a gun store.
 
I had seen it on twitter Saturday I think. Even so I failed to get that fb part for the longest time
 
ok
so let's say for a moment that you don't care about all the conditions that can make it take longer.
that you know, in advance, it will always take a max of 200ms.
you still need to mock out the network because each time you run the benchmark the network latency will be different.
so when you have a "measurement" of your code, it's a measurement of your code plus a bunch of random network latency.
so the outcome time doesn't actually measure your code at all.
 
Unless you want to quantify that.
 
Xeo
Anybody in Cologne, Germany on August 5th and wants a GamesCom press ticket?
 
I'm not benchmarking my code
I'm only benchmarking the network
 
user1804599
5:14 PM
@Xeo what if I say yes while it's actually not the case?
 
Xeo
Then fuck you
 
this begs the question as to why you are using a C++ code benchmarking library to benchmark a network
 
user1804599
Then yes.
 
user1804599
When will we meetup for the fuck? :3
 
Because I'm connecting to a C++ API.
 
5:15 PM
... that will not make any difference to network-induced factors.
 
user1804599
Why are you benchmarking?
 
I'm trying to assess the performance profile of a service which API is in C++.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes: I got back with about 200dv left. My 10-day excursion to Minmus turned into an 11-year interplanetary hop.
 
I want to know which operations are costly and which are not.
 
And in between, no other mission was launched.
 
5:17 PM
indeed.
 
Very Kerbal
 
the important thing is I got like 1000 science for it
yay atomic engines!
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz how's Elixir going?
 
@Mr.kbok OK, but that's a combination of two completely different factors, which are the code and the network, which can and will vary independently, especially the network which will change the exact timings for fun.
especially as slowness calls for completely separate remedies depending on which one is problematic.
 
@Puppy The actual operations on the service side are no-ops, so I know I'm only measuring the network part
I have an offline benchmark for the actual calculation part
 
5:19 PM
well then that makes life easier, just chuck out the C++ service part and get a real network monitoring tool that can tell you about your network
 
But nonius da best
:p
 
No. That won't tell me anything.
 
it'll tell you about your network
 
user1804599
Hire a benchmarking expert.
 
So? I don't want to benchmark the network. I want to benchmark the transport.
 
5:21 PM
you just said you're only measuring the network.
 
Yes, not the cost of the operation on the remote side.
 
can't sleep
urgh
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes very good tool +1
 
ok so what is the difference between that and a regular network analysis tool output?
 
user1804599
Is it still necessary to put a link to the rules on the starboard?
 
user1804599
It's already in la topique.
 
5:33 PM
yes it is, do it
 
user1804599
 
posted on June 22, 2015 by Scott Meyers

In part 1, I divided technical publishing into four tasks (manuscript creation, production, distribution, and marketing), and I gave my perspective on publishing economics from a traditional technical publisher's point of view. In that post, my financial analysis was based on the assumption that most technical books sell no more than 5000 copies. For an author who's already been published, that

 
where did "Most unneeded. Highly unnecessary" come from
 
@rightfold Ergh.
This is so unoriginal.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes once you fix it! :p
 
5:41 PM
I don't believe originality was part of his requirements
 
What we need is a decent inside joke.
One that is preferably related to @R.MartinhoFernandes
 
@Mr.kbok like so? seems o work fine for me
 
@EtiennedeMartel Anything to do with clothing and USB cables should work.
 
Xeo
USB cable underwear.
 
why do you even have the rules posted
its not like anyone reads them
 
Xeo
5:49 PM
Easy linking
 
bad question, could be an XY problem stackoverflow.com/questions/30986543/…
 
Actually curious
@MarcoA. How would the problem described be advantageous?
 
no idea right now.. not saying that it isn't, but giving little/no background isn't going to work that great
 
@Prismatic For the same reason companies put disclaimers on their products.
 
he might do it with alloca though
 
5:54 PM
That way they can claim they warned their users.
 
I've just bought Minecraft
 
@BartekBanachewicz goodbye Bartek
 
If we don't post the rules, it's our fault for not giving information. If we do, it's their fault for not reading them.
@BartekBanachewicz It's about time.
 
@MarcoA. why do you say so?
 
@MarcoA. It soounds like a return value optimization.
 
5:55 PM
@BartekBanachewicz How many billion did you pay for it?
 
You should have bought it back when it was Mojang. Now you just gave more money to Microsoft.
 
Xeo
lol
 
@EtiennedeMartel are you really meant to make me feel bad about paying for a game
@sehe yeah, more appropriate
 
Etienne is meant to make you feel bad.
@BartekBanachewicz I mean, Microsoft paid $2.6bio for it, so I assume you paid more (why else would they sell?)
@melak47 yeah, that's what I expected when I "asked" for a SSCCE. Inb4 the source type isn't actually string, though :S
 
@BartekBanachewicz now you can join the amazing ScriptCraft.. IN JS!
 
6:01 PM
why does "Community" award points to the second most upvoted answer and not to the first? stackoverflow.com/a/30928389/1938163
there was a 50 points bounty
I don't understand this
 
What's the canonical difference between a thin and a thick wrapper?
IOW how can they be easily (rule-of-thumb) distinguished?
 
user1804599
 
6:33 PM
@nabijaczleweli it's not a discrete difference
it's continuous
basically how close the original api is to the wrapped one
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ah. Alright. Thanks!
 
user image
4
 
user1804599
Continuous things suck.
 
user1804599
Computers tend to be good at discrete things.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
6:41 PM
 
Ell
6:55 PM
@BartekBanachewicz what
how only just now?
you were writing a clone yonks ago :P
I have to decide whether I want systemd or not :S
 
@Griwes The Dutch still got their ass kicked really hard. Canada had to go in and get them out of that shit.
 
user1804599
I had this wonderful idea.
 
user1804599
Let's build a 4-bit adder in Minecraft.
 
Ell
Ah rust is probably taking up lots of space
I'll delete that
 
Ven
go is a terrible, terrible language, yet still a major productivity boost. Amdahl's law in another context.
 
7:02 PM
> Following German Occupation of the Netherlands, the Dutch royal family took refuge in Canada. Princess Margriet was born in exile while her family lived in Ottawa. The maternity ward of Ottawa Civic Hospital in which Princess Margriet was born was temporarily declared to be extraterritorial by the Canadian government, thereby allowing her citizenship to be solely influenced by her mother's Dutch citizenship.
> To commemorate the birth, the Canadian Parliament flew the Dutch flag over Peace Tower. This is the only time a foreign flag has flown over the Canadian Parliament Building.
Didn't know about the Peace Tower thing.
 
user1804599
Go isn't terrible.
 
user1804599
Go is awesome.
 
May 21 at 13:15, by Tony The Lion
lol rightfold's opinions
 
Ven
twitch.tv/sethbling super MarI/O Kart
 
7:11 PM
I can share a Java program without compiling it on different machines, right?
 
@Jefffrey Yes
That's the whole point of Java
 
right
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Yes.
 
I have to say, boost.spirit is tantalizing, in that it appears that I could write a parser in no time, but is soul torturing because picking up all of boost's little nuance is a pain. sigh
And, yes, I'm typing here for the reputation boost so I can comment on a spirit parser answer and ask for clarification :-)
 
I have this Java program that produces a client and a server executable. Those executables are platform dependent though, right?
 
user1804599
7:14 PM
@Jefffrey It depends on how it produces them.
 
user1804599
If it produces ELF binaries then they'll indeed not work on Windows and OS X.
 
My professor made me notice: "Assuming you would have to install your program on different clients, why is your code structure not adeguate"? The only problem that I can see is that both server and client share classes together.
But that's implicit.
Like I have all classes, and then I have two java files one for the client and one for the server and they just invoke different things.
I guess I could separate some classes and duplicate those that are actually used by both, but I don't really see the problem as far as installing clients is concerned.
Oh right, distribuition.
 
user1804599
Here's how you make software Jefffrey:
 
I would have to share all java class files for both
Instead, I should split them
Or maybe I have to create a jar file
Shouldn't the jar generator put only the classes that it needs anyway?
Then we are back to square one
I'm so confused
 
user1804599
src/
    main/
        java/
            org/
                jefffrey/
                    stuff/
                        Server.java (has main method)
                        Client.java (has main method)
                        shitload of other classes
    test/
        java/
            org/
                jefffrey/
                    stuff/
                        shitload of tests
pom.xml
 
7:18 PM
That's basically what I have
 
user1804599
Then the JAR's manifest tells which class contains the main method.
 
user1804599
Then you just create two JARs—server.jar and client.jar—which have different manifests.
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Treeshaking is possible but not worth it really.
 
user1804599
Classes are loaded lazily so there's no runtime overhead to shipping too many classes.
 
user1804599
Only disk size and one-time download bandwidth but your school project will likely not cause problems in these aspects.
 
7:20 PM
So the purpose of a .jar file is to create a java executable, right? And group all classes together into a single file that can be shared as is
No?
 
user1804599
JARs are distributable class sets, basically.
 
user1804599
You can make them executable if you put info about the main class in it, but you don't have to.
 
By running java SomeClassFile I'm dependent on the location of the other .class files
 
user1804599
They're like dylib/shared objects in the C++ world.
 
user1804599
Or DLLs in .NET world. Except they can also be executable but don't have to be.
 
7:21 PM
JAR files are zip files, basically.
 
So that's the problem he is referring to
 
@rightfold Why must you make sure that you don't overload the size of your classes in Java?
 
I guess
 
user1804599
java -jar foo.jar runs the main method of the main class of the jar.
 
user1804599
You can also do java -cp foo.jar org.jefffrey.stuff.Server (-cp flag tells Java in which directories and JARs it can find class files).
 
7:22 PM
@DougPorter ???
What kinds of rep boost do you even get from Lounge?
Meh.
 
Thanks
 
user1804599
I'm pretty sure you can configure Maven to produce two JARs with different main classes but using the same source files.
 
Oh god you guys just reminded me to go to tutorials on Tuesday for Java
 
user1804599
PHP has something similar called phars. :P
 
user1804599
7:35 PM
I wonder whether command blocks can be used to implement faster CPUs in Minecraft.
 
my god I should just start programming Haskell alraedy
does Scala have monads?
 
@Ell i might have stolen it
 
user1804599
Probably not.
 
user1804599
You can implement logic gates with them but they exploit entity teleportation and pressure plates which is horribly slow.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
7:42 PM
This looks like a transistor!
 
@VermillionAzure Scala has implicit parameters, which can be used to implement type classes, and Monad is a type class, so...
 
Xeo
> ========== Rebuild All: 16 succeeded, 0 failed, 0 skipped ==========
whee
 
I still don't understand monads
 
Xeo
Finally got the x64 stuff sorted out
 
316
Q: A monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?

Roman A. TaycherWho first said A monad is just a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem? and on a less important note is this true and if so could you give an explanation (hopefully one that can be understood by someone who doesn't have much haskell experience).

 
Xeo
7:45 PM
now I have {Debug, Release} * {Win32, x64} * 4 projects
 
@fredoverflow pls i am just a freshmen have mercy on me sir
 
user1804599
I should put my monad tutorial on my blog again.
 
user1804599
In fact, gonna do that right now.
 
hmm
 
281
Q: Monad in plain English? (For the OOP programmer with no FP background)

figIn terms that an OOP programmer would understand (without any functional programming background), what is a monad? What problem does it solve and what are the most common places it's used? EDIT: To clarify the kind of understanding I was looking for, let's say you were converting an FP applica...

 
7:47 PM
I wonder if there's a place that offers paid TC hosting
 
user1804599
 
@rightfold That's significantly more verbose than I remember it.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
 
Argh
I really just don't get it
Something about generics and chaining operations and enabling this behavior in a generic way with the system allowing for automatic conversion of types or something
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow bjarne with flowers
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow camera man is moron; doesn't film the slides
 
user1804599
oh wait they do at one point
 
Really? Gna, I hate that...
I like it best when the slides are huge in the video, and the presenter is small in some corner.
 
Factories in like half hour
maybe? Midd call waiting to watch rest of tv show
 
8:03 PM
Question: are encapsulating errors in monads actually computationally more efficient than our current system of try-catch in C++?
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow I like what InfoQ does.
 
user1804599
The presenter is filmed and the slides are high-quality next to the video (i.e. converted to PNG from presentation software directly), and it goes to the next slide automatically at the right moment.
 
@VermillionAzure I would be highly surprised, because hardware has been offering exception support for quite some time.
 
@fredoverflow What do you mean "highly surprised?" In who's favor?
 
I would think that exceptions are faster than monads, as long as they aren't thrown.
 
Ell
8:05 PM
In favour of exceptions
 
user1804599
I like explicit returning and explicit cascading of errors.
 
@rightfold Me too.
Except the bloat :(
 
oh no the bloat
wat
 
user1804599
Like in Go:
 
user1804599
if err := f(); err != nil {
    // stuff
}
 
Ell
8:07 PM
I prefer implicit cascading
 
@rightfold Wouldn't it be nice if we could see the regular execution of our program without error handling?
I guess that's what exceptions do but meh.
 
user1804599
This plays well with different error handling techniques (ignoring, returning, aggregating in set, sending to other thread of execution, etc) unlike exceptions which are pretty much only good at returning (which is done implicitly).
 
@rightfold It sounds nice/
...Do we have monads in C++?
 
Ell
If you write them
 
Write a haskell compiler in C++
 
8:09 PM
@VermillionAzure I think just like with everything in C++ - you can, if you write lots and lots of code
 
Ell
I don't think it requires writing lots and lots of code
 
pair<return_value,std::exception_ptr>?
 
So monads are type wrappers?
I'm so confused.
 
user1804599
In C++ you need exceptions because of constructors.
 
Hmmm...
Maybe I should write my own version of Lisp
 
user1804599
8:11 PM
Well, I suppose you could have private constructors and public factory functions.
 
Actually, shouldn't functional programming be king?
Because we can implement objects on top of a fundamentally FP system
 
Ell
@VermillionAzure do you know what a type class is?
 
@Ell No.
 
Ell
You can implement FP on OO too
 
@Ell Yes, but then things are not as nice, right?\
 
Ell
8:14 PM
@VermillionAzure do you know what a concept is?
 
@Ell I remember reading a part of the paper
 
user1804599
@Ell Single-method objects are functions!
 
It was going to be very nice for archetypes in C++ or something like that
It's like generic framework types or something.
Where the type must support the concept or something
Reminds me a lot of interfaces from Java
But without inheritance
 
Ell
Kinda. But not really.
But if you understand what an interface is
For something to be a monad, it must implement the interface for a monad
Which means it must support certain operations
 
@Ell Right? Something about bind and taking a function
Yes?
This reminds me of std::async::then() I think.
 
Ell
8:17 PM
Something like that vOv
Im not the person to ask
 
user1804599
Read my blog.
 
user1804599
It tells you how to learn about monads.
 
@rightfold what blog
 
Xeo
People trying to learn monads again?
 
@Xeo One person is not a people
@rightfold .....................................
Yeah I should.
But I'm at work
And then I work after work
ugh.
 
Ell
8:21 PM
dieting is hard man
 
@rightfold There is no such post on your blog
 
@milleniumbug There is.
@milleniumbug rightfold.sexy
 
user1804599
There definitely is.
 
> In order to understand monads, all you have to do is follow these steps:

I. Fucking use them.
 
Oh, now I see it
 
8:22 PM
and (s?)he's right
 
Ell
she
 
user1804599
"she" is short for "sexy he"
 
shehe
 
@rightfold I'm so confused
Is your pronoun "bear?"
 
user1804599
8:24 PM
No!
 
My god I don't know if everyone in this room is trolling or not
 
@VermillionAzure they/we are
 
gg java I guess
 
@Jefffrey Why java
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey show invocation of java.
 
8:28 PM
Jan 23 at 17:01, by Jefffrey
The answer to any question regarding why I'm doing something stupid is 90% of the times "uni".
 
@Jefffrey lol are you in cs
 
@rightfold javac -target 1.7 -source 1.7 PuzzleSolverServer.java
 
user1804599
That's javac, not java.
 
user1804599
Also you have to se the classpath when invoking the compiler.
 
8:29 PM
@rightfold java -jar server.jar
 
user1804599
Otherwise the compiler cannot find the classes either.
 
user1804599
And it has to find them for static type information.
 
The other client JAR file, compiled and compressed pretty much the same way works
 
@Jefffrey y no ide
 
@TBohne no, y ide?
 
8:31 PM
> skipping 18 contexts in backtrace
...that's never good
 
@VermillionAzure The first time you visit chat you get 20 reputation points. It may be that the actual post wasn't needed, but then y'all wouldn't have had the glorious excitement of reading my post.
 
@DougPorter ah
r u neu?
 
I've never been an active stackoverflow user, but have posted a couple questions over the years. Now I'm trying to understand boost spirit and having trouble. There's a great post on it that I'd like to comment on to get clarification, but I can't because of reputation. Pretty frustrating, actually.
 
@DougPorter answer a question
there's lots of low hanging fruit if you're on the lookout
 
@VermillionAzure I may have to go hunting, then. The few pages I skimmed through this afternoon that I immediately knew about had been answered very quickly already.
 
8:43 PM
@DougPorter And one of those people are me lol
 
8:58 PM
@rightfold Wouldn't an improperly set classpath cause jar cfe server.jar PuzzleSolverServer PuzzleSolverServer.class p3/ to also produce a corrupted JAR file?
Because that works.
But if instead of specifying the whole folder (p3/) I specify that list of classes, including the one that appears to be missing, then it throws that error.
 

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