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12:02 AM
@JacobGood1 Your timing is slightly off, I had a whole time when I was begging people to build it and ready to jump on bugs. New version in a week or two, and it will be way more solid! Then we fix the bugs and build and have fun. :-)
 
aggghhhh!
 
I wouldn't be bothering with Ren/C if not for Ren Garden and the other efforts. There'd be no reason.
 
I have been super tempted lately to create a dialect of rebol to run atop common lisp...
anyway... I could not use ren garden a ton earlier because I was in school
really excited to play with the new one
 
If we look at the chain of events, DocKimbel asked me what kind of bridge I would think Red would use with C++
I was so knocked out of my chair that he was actually soliciting my experience that I sat down and said "lemme thinkabout it, I'll get on that"
I sketched up a model and poked at it, and thought "hey, this would be fancy if I did it along these lines... I don't think anyone's done this w/C++11"
"in fact, most bindings to interpreters are written from stone-age ideas, both in the interpreter and the C++ application"
But then he kind of shot down my ideas and I think forgot he asked
Anyway, by then it was too late, because I'd come up with a trick that would make it model both Rebol and Red... and I had a little fake scaffolding for Red to test the bridge but realized that it was kind of silly to write a fake scaffold when I could just link to Rebol.
(Trick is based on template parameterization with function pointers, and it's a bit wild but there's a reason why they have this feature... and it's compiler optimized too... I'd never used it before)
 
sounds cool
 
12:13 AM
Very crafty, and it's about to get craftier.
I will say, I did manage to confuse the heck out of Doxygen with it though
"What unholy magic is this?" -- Doxygen, responding to Ren/C++
Anyway, I still believe I've got the C++ binding issue cornered. There won't be better coming in this decade for Rebol/Red.
And then, I was thinking about the various ways to test and stress the embedding, and i thought a real basic idea would be a console. It would bring the issues to the forefront...things like cancellation and having a worker/gui thread, etc.
So I just made a "little test"
That little test, within a week, was the best console Rebol has ever had.
And I said "I think I'm onto something, here".
Unfortunately, Rebol was still buggy and still missing features and still a bit in the backwaters. The Ren/C++ to Rebol bridge was... an ugly exercise in hackery that only a madman would have bothered to write. (Oh, wait, right. That's me.)
I will say if we go giving credit where credit is due, @Morwenn coming along and taking an interest in the C++ side (even if he didn't know Rebol or care so much about learning it) did keep me afloat. People like @kealist building it and forgiving when I got snarky at the "how would I know if I'm running under a debugger" remark kept me going too. (Sorry about that, again.)
I say a lot of stuff, I am after all The Hostile Fork, but I reserve my ire usually for people who are doing bad things to me... not the people helping me.
 
1:03 AM
For those of you wondering why I haven't pushed yet, I decided to clean up the memory model in hostkit.
Which sounds kind of insane. hostkit doesn't use malloc()/free() based on the idea that your platform might be embedded and... not use malloc()/free()? So when you design a platform interface the allocation and free operations are "pseudo-IOCTLS".
So here you are working in a conceptual model where the way memory is allocated and freed can differ between the hostkit and Rebol. e.g. if by protocol Rebol asks the host to do something and it allocates with Rebol needing to do the freeing, then "there's a hook for that" vs. Rebol just assuming it can call the free() the core implementation would use.
Hence the memory models of Rebol Core can differ completely from the model things like the internet protocols or GUI uses
Of course, this wasn't followed in any orderly fashion, hostkit would use malloc randomly. It's a weird abstraction. However, even if you consider C++ vs. C, you cannot free() memory you made with new, and you can't delete[] or delete memory you made with malloc.
It is conceivable that an ioctl for allocation and freeing could be useful on some platform situation, although I'd generally say the problem lies in not having a better general hook for protocols in which Rebol winds up managing memory owned by extensions/plugins.
I'm fixing it because type correctness requires it. I don't endorse it, but it is a talking point.
 
1:24 AM
@HostileFork Thanks for the suggestion on not using R3 in the tutorial. I'll mull that over...
 
@Respectech It's nice you're pursuing it, in an era that people seemingly are no longer tackling the problem. But do use the sites other people make as a baseline. Something I think you do rather well is the humility... you don't paste up some ad-hoc HTML and go "we rule, we define the future, everything else is garbage"... and be sure to keep erring on the side of "I have something to show you" vs the quote I often criticized of "gurus designing the future"...
Rebol shows its best face when it shows its most useful face.
 
1:51 AM
Hrm. I just started learning about topic branches in git. Do you think I should be using that sort of thing here @HostileFork?
From what I can understand, I (1) create a topic branch on my cloned version of rebol/rebol
(2) commit my fixes to it
(3) issue the pull request from it
Have I got any of that right? As opposed to just packing my changes in my master clone and issuing the pull?
 
@MarkI I'm afraid I don't know what a topic branch is. I know what a branch is. If you're speaking about a new feature, I'll have to get myself an education
 
@HostileFork I think topic is a style of branch rather than a kind of branch, though that statement might not help you :)
(I just mean it is a branch like any other branch)
 
@MarkI Well our working model here--to the extent we do work--is not the same working model as in something like Gerritt (used by android). Workflow is generally that all submissions are branches. If you're feeling generous you could itemize your patches, if not you could batch them.
I'm feeling half generous.
 
@HostileFork Heaven forfend! No, I'm happy with branching it, and I'm happy with not ever calling it a topic branch again ...
 
I'm not dropping a total train all at once, but when people look at it they may accuse me of doing so, but if they do then they're not appreciating what I elected not to do.
I thought of naming the branch coherence-one
 
2:04 AM
Is 21 fixes too much to put in one submission? Some of them are comment fixes ...
 
@MarkI At this point, really the issue is review size. I have tried to audit and cut back anything that distracts from content. If I found that I changed something from x+y to x + y and sifted it, with a net zero runtime effect... I back it out just to shorten the review. It's not that I don't believe the codebase shouldn't adopt better formatting, it's that I think it clouds the issue.
To assist in review, pare everything out that can be pared out. Look at anything that represents a systemic change and let it go. e.g. if Rebol's C codebase should always space things out like above... save it for the "space everything" checkin.
 
@HostileFork Sage advice I've hopefully followed.
@HostileFork I code in the style of the previous coder.
 
It's actually me bending to @earl's sage advice.
 
Also my "space everything" check-in is coming up next.
 
Despite my irritation and desire to go trashing and fixing things and caring for nothing. Which may have justifiable aspects with this codebase. However, it is reckless and it's not just others who benefit from a more cautious and staged approach -- I found bugs too by reviewing line by line.
 
2:09 AM
I am thinking of re-ordering my fix list to order by importance ("bigness"?). What do you think?
 
Humility is a practice.
@MarkI I did say I was going to call the first commit coherence-one. Yes. Prioritize.
 
I just mean in the single 21-point bullet comment now, not across submissions.
 
coherence-two is the next level of warnings, basically turning on all the optional warnings used by Ren/C++
 
2:21 AM
I should mention that in practice, coherence-two was way more a pain than coherence-one. Neither are trivial.
After coherence-one and coherence-two, I can actually itemize patches.
For some definition of "itemize". If you call "separate code stack and data stack" an itemized patch.
I'm challenging myself to do it, properly, again with ambition to make it the "offer Atronix cannot refuse".
@MarkI Anyway, just look over the diffs. Ask yourself "is this really on point?" If it is noise in the diff, discard the delta and keep the meat.
No one wants to see tabs becoming spaces or vice-versa unless it is the "fix all the tabs" commit.
Eliminate all avoidable changes that are better batched in a commit related to systemically correcting the issue that change is supposed to correct.
 
2:39 AM
Soundtrack for the Ren/C release...
It's not the easiest album to listen to. Somehow fitting, in that sense.
 
@HostileFork Thanks, will do.
@HostileFork OK to do it per-file, or not?
@HostileFork My problem is the opposite, I want to avoid doing 60 commits (for some reason).
Random Rebol style question: I seem to prefer none = some evaluation to none? some evaluation. Is that just me?
 
@MarkI Context matters; as IF/UNLESS/EITHER treat none as conditional false, I wonder what these expressions are for.
Also treating none as conditional false: ANY, ALL...
So what are you doing, exactly?
 
@HostileFork Right now? Or do you mean when I prefer none = ?
If the latter, then it's when I want to print true if the the result is in fact none.
So it's in a print block, if that matters.
 
3:06 AM
All right, WTF? I committed but nothing is showing up on my clone repo, not even that the branch I supposedly committed to exists.
Do I have to wait a while for github to catch up or something?
Good thing I tried this now instead of tomorrow evening. Help please!
 
@MarkI Help provided here, but note that all git clones are... clones. You only push them around. Committing locally only puts the commit on your drive. GitHub can be seen as a clone hosting service to which you push and pull as convenient.
 
@HostileFork Listening, yes, following, maybe no ...
So I have to push my changes and then I can issue a pull ... or do I have to push that too ... sigh
 
@MarkI Git is incredibly simple. Linus wrote it in a couple of weeks.
(and then, the Linux kernel maintainers went nuts on it.)
It's a filesystem, basically.
When you clone something like Rebol (or rebolsource) on GitHub, what you're actually doing is creating a hosted clone. It's not different from a clone you make on your local machine besides the fact that GitHub keeps it up even when your computer is turned off, and all that.
 
I think I doed it!
Pretty sure I uglied up some parts of it, but there is now a new branch of MarkEye/rebol called scan-phase-1.
Can you see it?
 
But also, you have different permissions on that clone. You can't unilaterally modify rebolsource/r3, you have to go through a process. But MarkEye/rebol (or whatever) you have write access too.
@MarkI Lemme look.
@MarkI You do indeed have a pushed branch: github.com/MarkEye/rebol/commit/…
 
3:22 AM
I like this ship! It's ... exciting!
 
Congratulations on your first step :-)
 
Any criticisms, comments, tips, hints, are always welcome, from anybody.
I will not press for making it into a pull request until I hear some things.
 
@MarkI Your wish is my... suggestion. :-P
 
To whet the appetite, here is a snippet:
|> all ["a"<"b" "b">"a"]
== true
Hilariously, that is almost the same in both versions, for wildly differing reasons, sorry, that was an accident I swear.
 
@MarkI I'm proud of you for this submission. Good work, good start.
Let's have dozens more :-)
 
3:28 AM
@HostileFork I am working on at least two more as we speak. Fun fun fun, and thanks for the wishes.
 
I'm trying to do @earl and @ShixinZeng proud by formulating commits in a measured reaction, which is nigh impossible.
Trying anyway.
@MarkI Git is nothing complicated, and that is part of its downfall...zero magic. Things just are what they are. You are a very technical person and as such, I think you will come to appreciate Git's brain-dead model :-)
Zero magic is sort of the Rebol aesthetic in the first place, though, isn't it?
 
@HostileFork In the interest of being Plan -4 failure safe, how do you feel about ! as the literal form of none?
 
@WiseGenius Instant bristle. Do not like.
I'm already a bit skeptical of the definition of ! for NOT but people do actually use that.
I do like backslash as literal unset, this momentum grows stronger every moment.
 
@HostileFork I too now dislike those good ol' C-isms I used to swear by, in large part thanks to being exposed to Rebol.
 
@HostileFork Because it could be easily confused as an l, 1, i, |, etc?
How does a simple . seem to you?
 
3:40 AM
@WiseGenius I'm sure there are several reasons for the bristle. I can only count and apply metrics to things that are within the realm of contemplation. Rejection of ! as literal none has to do with issues of !foo and foo! and legitimacy as words, and the giant matrix we are massaging here. At the risk of seeming like a curmudgeon, I say no way for ! as #[none].
 
@WiseGenius Dot and comma solo should always be errors just because of their illegibility.
 
@WiseGenius If you followed along I did actually experiment with , and . as #[unset!] for a while. It was a nice idea in theory, but they sucked. That's how backslash got promoted to #[unset!]. Which I still will fight strongly for.
I don't like the idea of , and . ever being different. Too visually indistinguishable.
 
How often is #[unset!] used?
 
It will be, often, once backslash is a literal unset.
Finally one line Rebol expressions will be readable.
op [a b c \ d e f \ g \ h i]
Protection, clarity.
Brought to you by the one, the only, HF. :-) (with help from @memophenon)
(actually, really @memophenon's idea, but HF will steal credit.)
 
op?
 
3:48 AM
@WiseGenius question?
 
@HostileFork What is op?
 
>> help op?
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    OP? value

DESCRIPTION:
    Returns TRUE if it is this type.
    OP? is an action value.

ARGUMENTS:
    value (any-type!)
 
@WiseGenius It's an action value, I guess. I still am not sure what you mean.
 
@HostileFork You probably thought I asked “What is op??”. But now I see that your original example must have been a typo.
>> op [a b c #[unset!] d e f #[unset!] g #[unset!] h i]
 
3:56 AM
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: op has no value
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
4:08 AM
@HostileFork Or were you using op here as something more like a placeholder, like foo?
 
@WiseGenius It was a placeholder, yes.
Sorry, I should have used a more common metasyntactic variable like foo
 
No problem. That was my first guess at what you meant, haha, but I wanted to check, because I was wondering:
Do you have any examples of a good use for #[unset!] for a noob like me who's never used it?
 
@WiseGenius You mean you don't understand why backslash makes a useful literal unset?
 
More like, I don't understand why unset needs a literal.
 
@WiseGenius "Expression barrier"
foo: reduce [a b c d e f g]

vs.

foo: reduce [a b \ c d e \ f g]
An unset literal is very efficient in the evaluator, and offers profound benefits of intent.
When I say efficient, I mean near-zero cost.
 
4:34 AM
:'( I wish I already understood what you mean.
Would a more detailed example of intent be too big?
 
@WiseGenius Well compare those two examples. Is a single arity, or arity two? The literal unsets provide an expression barrier simiiar to reduce [(a b) (c d e) (f g)] but without the cost.
And I'm famously indifferent to the cost of series, but even that aside, notationally I think the backslash form is better.
 
Now I understand, thanks. I wasn't thinking of the words being functions, for some reason.
What functions accept #[unset]?
 
4:55 AM
>> help append
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
USAGE:
    APPEND series value /part length /only /dup count

DESCRIPTION:
    Inserts element(s) at tail; for series, returns head.
    APPEND is an action value.

ARGUMENTS:
    series -- Any position (modified) (series! port! map! gob! object! bitset!)
    value -- The value to insert (any-type!)

REFINEMENTS:
    /part -- Limits to a given length or position
        length (number! series! pair!)
    /only -- Only insert a block as a single value (not the contents of the block)
 
>> help
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
Use HELP or ? to see built-in info:

    help insert
    ? insert

To search within the system, use quotes:

    ? "insert"

To browse online web documents:

    help/doc insert

To view words and values of a context or object:

    ? lib    - the runtime library
    ? self   - your user context
    ? system - the system object
    ? system/options - special settings

To see all words of a specific datatype:

    ? native!
    ? function!
    ? datatype!
 
@WiseGenius WoooOOoooo :-)
 
5:09 AM
@HostileFork help is the only one I can already think of. I vaguely remember I might have seen another one, but I don't remember it being very useful. Was append an example too, or just part of the demonstration of help?
>> append "a" #[unset!]
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
== "a"
 
>> append "a"
 
; Brought to you by: try.rebol.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-arg.html
    *** ERROR
** Script error: append is missing its value argument
** Where:
** Near: try load/all join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script/args...
 
 
8 hours later…
1:09 PM
Morning everyone
 
@Freezerburn Hellos.
 
@HostileFork How's it going? Been a bit since I've been around here
 
@Freezerburn New things afoot. I fixed Rebol.
 
@HostileFork You fixed it? I didn't even know it needed fixing
 
@Freezerburn Then you never read the source :-)
 
1:16 PM
@HostileFork Heh, nope. Only skimmed it in minor ways. most of the stuff I saw was relatively small and well-documented, but I did see a few functions that were pretty large. Is said fixed code out there to peruse yet, or are you still working on things?
 
@Freezerburn Phasing the output, first phase was supposed to be this weekend, but I did raise the bar on it. I hadn't really thought about the Windows build at all, but I added that.
Blame @gnat.
 
@HostileFork shakes fist at gnat
 
One of the nifty crucial things is definitionally scoped returns
 
Is this going to be the Ren/C release you've been working on or just a fixed-up release of Rebol?
A what scoped what now?
 
A scoped return. Recall that Rebol can do rather batty things in terms of letting you pass a block of code to a function... IF is a function for instance, and you can make your own constructs. The reason it works is that the bindings that the words look up were "definitionally scoped" before being passed in.
So if you write a loop wrapper, your own concept of what WHILE might look like or similar, you can use local variables and there's not an issue of name conflicts if that loop wrapper has some various locals with the same name as the code block it's evaluating.
For the BrianH epic SO answer on the topic of "what is definitional scoping"
17
A: Is there a overall explanation about definitional scoping in Rebol and Red

BrianHRebol actually does not have scoping at all. Let's take this code: rebol [] a: 1 func-1: func [] [a] inner: context [ a: 2 func-2: func [] [a] func-3: func [/local a] [a: 3 func-1] ] So, with that code loaded, if Rebol had lexical scoping, this is what you'd see: >> reduce [fu...

 
1:22 PM
Will do
 
Anyway, RETURN has traditionally been bound to a single function. Meaning, it wasn't a word that had meaning in each function instance.
So if you said RETURN, it meant... return. From whatever function was running. That's not so cool if you write a loop wrapper.
The person who wrote the code passed in knew what return meant; it meant "return from the context I'm writing in"
e.g. each function needs to implicitly declare a separate meaning for return that is bound to the word.
some-random-thing [code code code [code return 5]]
You don't mean "return from some-random-thing". You mean return from me, the person who called some-random-thing.
@freezerburn But that's not actually the big news of the release if you read between the lines. That took a day.
 
Oh?
 
In fact, @earl hacked it up in a very different way. It wasn't the real way, and I wouldn't recommend it, but it showed that it could be done. He only did it after I offended him though. :-)
 
I never really thought about the idea of return from the perspective of a program that passes its code around in blocks and calls them. So the whole thing of binding return to different meanings depending on your code is interestingt
lol
 
@Freezerburn It is indeed quite interesting. And I'd say more than interesting, it is central. Not getting it right is a show-stopper for the language. @Ladislav and others agreed, but somehow nobody got around to fixing it.
Despite it being fixable and people knowing how to fix it.
 
1:30 PM
@HostileFork Not saying it isn't central (because indeed, it does look necessary), just interesting because it's not something I'd pondered before due to most languages doing that kind of thing "automatically". (e.g.: Javascript, where return always means to return from whatever function is currently running) And always binding the meaning in a specific way
 
What happens is just that there is a function class for return, that memoizes the identity of the function it is associated with... and a word is declared for each function that looks up to an instance of this function class.
It works splendidly.
Cheap, too.
 
So return knows where it is supposed to go back to when it is used, and then walks up the call hierarchy until it finds the thing it needs to jump to?
 
Yup.
 
And you can declare which part of the call hierarchy return should walk up to?
 
Well, technically we could offer that feature, but we're not trying to invent setjmp/longjmp here.
Because that tends to be Bad News (tm)
 
1:35 PM
Indeed. I misunderstood the feature. I thought it allowed the developer of something (e.g.: a loop) to declare what a return should mean when it is using a block of code, so that the return doesn't end up exiting the loop function. I guess it does that automatically?
(actually, a neat use of a different definition of return would be early termination of something like map/filter/etc., that's always been something that bothered me with those functions)
 
@Freezerburn The reason loops and such don't trap returns today is because they are "natives". They're C code.
Try writing your own FOR or WHILE or similar and you will quickly see why this is important.
 
@HostileFork I think I see why it's important. So that if someone writes a new loop mechanism, and the code block that gets passed in has a return in it, the return doesn't end up exiting out of the loop mechanism/function. (or maybe allowing it to? I don't know how REBOL would handle that currently)
 
@Freezerburn Yes, you can pick your meaning via the function spec. But the default is that you need to respect the binding.
most of the time that is what you want--it gives the behavior you intend.
@Freezerburn did you ever see Ren Garden?
 
@HostileFork I don't believe so
 
@Freezerburn Well lucky you, you get to see something new. :-)
 
1:46 PM
According to Youtube, I've seen about 4 minutes of it based on where it placed me in the video autoamtically
Don't remember those 4 minutes though...
 
@Freezerburn I skipped you to the fun part
 
Oh, ok
I shall start from there then!
@HostileFork Wait, how are you able to have 2 y bindings?
 
@Freezerburn You don't, it just saves the value and remembers the name.
 
@HostileFork Ah, got it
So I'm guessing that the previous value (which would be slot 2) isn't accessible via set-word anymore?
 
@Freezerburn Well you can get it with WATCH N where N is an integer. The debugger is holding the value live from GC.
But if you set it, what would you be setting?
You could say whatever: watch 2
 
1:52 PM
@HostileFork Yeah, I figured you could interact with it in that way, but not via "y: whatever"
 
That... sets y.
It is what it is. I can't do the impossible. Yet. :-)
 
@HostileFork Indeed. Which I was assuming would only set slot 3 of y, not both 2 and 3
Unless both slots are just viewing the same thing, and you just have a duplicate slot entry for the same thing
My apologies if I'm being a bit thick this morning. Woke up feeling like a zombie
 
@Freezerburn As mentioned in the video, I'd love nothing more than people getting in there and designing this. :-) It's actually just a test of the C++ binding for Rebol/Red.
"just a test." :-P
 
@HostileFork Still watching. Inbetween asking questions
@HostileFork Well, for "just" a test, it's a good one!
Makes me think a lot of some of the recent stuff done by Chris Granger with Light Table and EVE
 
@Freezerburn Don't you know WHO I AM?! :-P
Oh, no, you don't.
 
1:56 PM
@HostileFork lol
You're a midly irate fork :P
 
When I go to Starbucks, with nothing more than four or five dollars, I GET COFFEE.
 
That somehow gained sentience because of radiation or something and now hovers menacingly over a keyboard
 
@Freezerburn Like Frylock
 
@HostileFork Yeah basically
 
@Freezerburn Well I was the architecture lead of some thing a long time ago, and so when people bring up this "you know who you remind me of?" and then mention stuff like Light Table I feel like Zachary Barth being told "you remind me of that Minecraft guy".
I'm sure Zach thinks Minecraft is pretty cool, but still...
 
2:02 PM
@HostileFork Heh, fair enough. Just another relatively ignorant software dev here, don't mind me. (and I wasn't comparing you to Chris Granger, just that Light Table was supposed to have features kinda like the Ren Garden stuff, but the Garden looks more powerful/interesting)
 
@Freezerburn Well, Ren Garden is nothing if Rebol/Red don't hold water.
Hence, why I had to fix Rebol... then raise the stakes so DocKimbel has to pay attention to me.
 
@HostileFork What do you mean by holding water here?
 
I mean things like return not working. And other details like that.
 
@HostileFork Got it
 
If you claim to offer people a language construction set, you have to have all the parts in the box.
@Freezerburn If you never read it, my slides from Montreal: E. Rebolus Unum
 
2:06 PM
@HostileFork I think I might have read part of those, but I'll take another look at them
 
@Freezerburn Note that I have defined and made peace with /ONLY if it is fixed within my framing.
The rest is accurate.
Red's nifty methodology doesn't make hard issues "disappear". Still there!
Wow. I like looking at things I write from the past. I'm about 90% right.
Being 10% wrong is a good reminder of why humility is important.
3
 
@HostileFork Wish I could get to 10% wrong. I'm pretty far off from that
 
@Freezerburn Well, if you can be wrong enough you can be right just by doing the opposite. The worst situation is if you're precisely 50% wrong.
Never be wrong exactly half the time.
 
@HostileFork That's fair enough. Now to figure out exactly how wrong I am...
 
@Freezerburn Publish and I'll tell you. :-)
 
2:22 PM
@HostileFork Heh. First I need to write something interesting enough to put out there. Though I am considering pulling some tiny bits of C++ code I wrote recently and dumping them on github
 
@Freezerburn Hum? You know C++?
 
@HostileFork Yeah. Decently. And I for some reason have a fascination with templates
 
(e.g.: in the micro "library" I'm considering putting on Github, I have a messaging system that can be used purely via: Channel<SomeMessageParser>::Subscribe(...lambda...) and Channel<SomeMessageParser>::Send(some_message_class))
@HostileFork reads blog post because I have no idea what those things mean
 
@Freezerburn I shouldn't have skipped the opening of the Ren Garden video, apparently.
I didn't know you were a C++ programmer.
Ren/C++ is programming crystal meth layered atop Rebol's programming crack.
 
2:27 PM
@HostileFork Well then
...not sure what to say beyond that
 
@Freezerburn It's good and about to go to ludicrous good: github.com/metaeducation/ren-cpp/blob/develop/include/rencpp/…
Much thanks to @Morwenn for much of that bit.
Overall design, however, by Y.T.
 
@HostileFork Interesting
Though I'm confused: How does a local (moved) variable get captured by reference correctly when that parameter is going to be destructed when the function ends? (line 176)
I'm probably misunderstanding something there. (as I said, only decently know C++)
 
@Freezerburn Critiques and analysis are more than welcome, but ... er ... you mean by citing 176: >([&fun](utility::argument_type<Fun, Ind>&&... args){
 
@HostileFork Yeah. fun is a Fun&& in the parameter list to construct_. Won't it be destructed at the end of construct_, causing the reference to be invalid?
 
I wish I could just go @Morwenn --^ and leave it at that, but he hasn't been by in a week or two.
So let me read it and contemplate.
@Freezerburn Well as a parameter is it an rvalue reference that gets recaptured as an ordinary reference in the lambda. Off the cuff I don't have a strong intuition regarding the legality of that, but it hasn't crashed yet in practice... and if it were superbad I'd think at the level of strictness we compile with it would complain. That said, I didn't write that line... and you raise a good question.
I can ping him via less chat-noise methods to ask.
He had some spare time and got involved in the C++ side of things -- then got a job and doesn't know Rebol at all.
No one's paying him to do the bidding of a a fork levitating on a keyboard.
That said, he keeps up with the C++ craft rather sharply, so if it's a C++ question he'll want the answer.
 
2:43 PM
@HostileFork Sounds good. Happy to bring up a valid point instead of demonstrate lack of knowledge of C++ :)
Anyway, I have to go for now. I should be back on later today
 
@Freezerburn TTYL and it would mean the world to me were you to build Ren Garden.
(Because I want to hammer out the build instructions)
 
2:55 PM
We've got new user on the Red Gitter, his nick is gokr. He seems to be active in the Nim language ecosystem and claims to write small Rebol inspired language - lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2015-June/…
"One "odd" thing I am playing with is actually allowing both prefix and infix funcs. Infix meaning "first arg is on the left", so it can actually do even 3 or more args.
I am also exploring the idea with adding more than the 4 core word formats.
For example, for arguments I would like something more Smalltalkish - in Smalltalk: [:x :y | x + y] but in Ni it could be: [>x >y x + y] if one added a new word format: "<"<word>"
Just in case someone here is interested to exchange few ideas with the user. I informed him about this SO room ...
 
@pekr Does he have an SO account? I have actually gone as far as solving some squeak thing. I did have a liking for Squeak, from afar. But the language is... ugly.
Maybe if you send him that and say "you can speak with this crazy fork, perhaps he will give you an introduction you'll understand" then he'll respect me. Not that respecting me is in fashion, but...
 
I listed various channels to him, let him decide, which ones he is going to inspect ...
 
@pekr Well I think Red using gitter for Red dev chat is prudent, but I think if one is going to be scientific and metric it is worrisome to not have questions and answers and a Q&A community on StackOverflow. Doc may want to live in a parallel reality where it doesn't matter, but I feel it matters. A good healthy question-per-day would be a good start for Red here.
They can hate me, they can ban me, but I still take the red tag off of questions that are "why am I getting a red error message here in this java program".
 
Using Gitter does not prevent us from using Stack Overflow for Q&As imo ....
 
3:11 PM
I'm keeping the channel clear for when he holds up his side of the bargain.
@pekr You do know why I got so angry, right? He deleted the What is Red Video from contributions page.
It was triggered by me telling an anonymous user (who turned out to be @rebolek not knowing he was posting anonymously) to "put up or shut up" and Peter Wood, who does kind of suck, banning me.
@rebolek and I argue all the time.
We don't take it personally. Well, I do. Sometimes.
 
Wasn't the vide link invalid, because you removed it?
 
@pekr But I sent him the video long ago, I'd given him everything.
The entire Red branding portfolio, built and filed
 
Doc and Qingtian are really busy, lately it was something like 10-14 commits dayily in last week or two ...
Well, if it would be me, no time to reedit the video, when you are busy with developments ...
 
Why should I host it, when I'm being kicked and disavowed?
No editing required. He had the whole file. I gave it back. Host it where he wants.
I'd had to edit the french subtitles twice in the preceding week, only reminding me of how little he ever cared for me or gave anything back to me. No respect. Nothing.
AND HE SPEAKS FRENCH.
Natively.
I speak English and Spanglish.
Peter Wood is indeed a dry, barren, uninteresting guy. @pekr, you have proven yourself a resilient artistic badass. And for that I'm going to have to say "kudos to you". You're cool in my book. Kaj de Vos and Peter Wood are not cool.
I'd like them to wake up and become real people.
The world doesn't need more drones.
 
I am far from good, or I would have achieved something significant :-) Just an IT manager at one pharma company, helping my brothere to keep our 800 users wi-fi network running, doing some astromy related stuff, owning a photo studio, having 2 LED screens for few of adverts. In general - lots of time split between all of that, not being excellent in either ...
and as for rebol and red, it is pure joy for me to be with the community, pity I don't have enough of free time to help more.
 
3:24 PM
@pekr You're self aware, that's the only reason we can talk.
You understand design, you criticized logos. But in the end do you think I got it right?
 
Lately I got ill, so I got also exhausted money wise, as renting my studio costs really a lot of money here. So no more donation to Red for some time. OTOH Red is now invested, so at least no worry here for the foreseable future
 
@pekr Did I solve it? --^
 
I would take over the care about the video, but my time is already much occupied ...
 
@pekr Not asking you to, Fullstack needs to take responsibility
 
Logos are good, I especially like the flat icons, although as for rebol, I might like the 3D a bit more. But you know - design can be really a question of personal taste, so ...
 
3:27 PM
If my "button pushing" of taking the video off hostilefork seems "petty", I'm sorry, kicking me off Trello was petty and badly timed
A poor move in the midst of a Google Group ban
As for the Brendan Eich remark, that's subtle but it does actually encode a lot about my position.
It's about who you choose to associate yourself with and distance yourself from.
"Hi! I created JavaScript in 10 days and accidentally produced a revolution! Also, I hate gay people!" vs. "Hello, I'm an honest genius, with a clear and pure heart, hoping to help you."
It just makes me mad, I guess.
I didn't know about Brendan's exile from Mozilla, until @iArnold pointed it out. When the tweet was up I'd favorited it, because I thought "go Red! JavaScript does suck, but... well... hey that's traction!"
 
You were not banned from google, just that your posts undergo moderation. I think it is not necessary and might feel the same as ban for you personally, but ...
 
But as we were all looking for buttons to push and positions to take, I thought "jeez, how low has DocKimbel sunk"
@pekr They should have known that meant no more posts from me.
 
Doc just met Brendan and the other guy (author of PHP) during the web conference in China. So they had a lunch. A bit of a PR for Red for the community, nothing more. In fact I think, that Eich nor anyone else have any interest in Rebol/Red.
You surely remember how disappointed you were with Crockford's answer, don't you?
 
@pekr Yes, he was a jerk. It was disappointing.
I made the same mistake.
It's an easy mistake to make.
 
There might not be many geniuses out there, with the personality of Carl, etc. I can see lots of ego plays also in the photography business, etc.
 
3:35 PM
@pekr Art is ego.
If you call yourself an artist, you have ego.
If you think of yourself as a master [engineer / programmer / plumber / chess player / bridge player / ...] you have ego.
Doesn't matter, really.
Musicians, movie makers, people who build skyscrapers... it's one thing to do it, and it's quite another thing to do it for the wrong reasons.
I have a weird little dream, coming from my childhood.
That dream is accessible programming on any machine.
I would lay in bed and think about debuggers. I'd never seen one, but I wondered what they would look like. I envisioned a screen in the corner that was the screen of the game, but smaller... just in the corner. Then you could read the lines, click around on the sprites...
Not only did I have these dreams but I have spoken and written. I have told the world what I wanted. I have written everything down. And in response the universe has been making phone calls back to the numbers I left...
 
That would be nice. Don't remember what it was, but on amiga, there was already some product doing a visual programming?
I liked Amos basic on Amiga too
hmm, it was called CanDo
 
@pekr Did you see Reichart's Ridiculous Weird Al Hair ? :-) He put that video up, himself!!!
That is easily the worst look Reichart has ever had.
 
There's also one Czech visual programming tool, for kids, called Baltazar. My friend worked for them - sgpsys.com/en
 
But... history is history. It's there. Deal.
@pekr Do you think it's worthwhile for there to be peace made in Rebol vs. Red, or is there no chance?
When we were initially discussing repository management, I eliminated myself from consideration, to try and keep the peace.
At this point, I have declared everyone either uninterested or incompetent.
People can decide which category they belong to.
@earl is profoundly competent.
You may ask my opinion of others.
 
4:07 PM
I think that you are wrong in an assumption, that Doc has anything against you personally. He is mostly busy keeping his dream alive, lots of work to get closer to 1.0. I think, that he is not all that ignorant, just look into the map document, he let anyone being a part of the discussion, till we somehow resolved it and he did his final go, which is still his right to do ...
 
@pekr We've met in person, I don't think we assume ill will on either end.
We just disagree.
Unfortunately, when people disagree and it involves software, that means divergence.
I don't want divergence, I want coherence.
I have debated the name for my commit branch, but I do like catchy names... it will be coherence-one
Sadly not today. :-/ I'm sorry.
This week.
Blame @gnat.
Windows, oh how I hate you, except... POSIX sucks in a completely different way.
 
5:21 PM
@HostileFork you've got to be kidding me. Well, at least he's evolved since. Or maybe Weird Al just sued for infringement.
 
6:10 PM
@HostileFork To build Ren/C++ / Ren Playground, what Windows bits do I need? (I currently have Visual Studio 2015 pre-release and a cygwin environment, not QT though)
 
6:21 PM
Oh wait, found the build doc
 
6:53 PM
Hm, so why does STRTOD not exist when building REBOL? It seems to redefine strtod (which does exist) into STRTOD (which I can only find a definition of, but not implementation)
 
@HostileFork Everybody has a right on such mistakes from youth, ultimately that makes up who you are. As my mom always said to me, you do not want to feed all those who look like that today...
 
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