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user1804599
8:00 PM
They're almost as unnavigable as Python docs.
 
> arvind g 5 months ago
Apple is just fancy, Microsoft is the one that makes the useful stuff.
Reply
43 thumbs up
 
@райтфолд Typical Boost docs: Starts with a mini example. Then dives into concepts.
 
watoldladywat.jpeg
 
If elected moderator I pledge to exile Shog, Vlad and Alf. Vote Lightness!
 
@райтфолд Some of them are alright. I wonder if having a nicer tool to write documentation with would encourage people to produce better docs. Like the boost doc util seems pretty obscure and only the boost guys use it
 
user1804599
8:00 PM
@StackedCrooked Typical Boost docs: list lots of code samples without saying which fucking header to include.
 
lol right
 
Why is C's grammar so terrible? Was it conceived before parsing was well-understood as a theory?
 
@Pris I have yet to observe any documentation tools that actually produce useful docs.
@FredOverflow It has nothing to do with that. It's simply because they didn't appreciate a) how it would be extended in the future, and b) they didn't understand what was actually important.
 
@райтфолд Why did you remove the agluj repo?
 
@райтфолд What helps is when you realise these samples are just online comment generated from de examples directory
 
8:01 PM
the theoretical notions of how to parse C are pretty trivial, even for that time.
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl abandoned
3
 
@райтфолд aw. Do you still have the sources of that thread pool based on boost asio?
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl I still have a few other compilers on GitHub.
 
@Puppy The official Qt docs are nice. But that seems to be mostly the result of many hours of manual labour (and a tool).
 
@Puppy Yeah. Doxygen seems alright but I've heard its not that suitable for code that makes heavy use of templates
 
user1804599
 
@Pris Doxygen is a giant pile of shit.
 
@Puppy The fact that you can't know what int(x) means by looking at it in isolation doesn't sound trivial to me.
 
There are languages with non-ambiguous grammars, right?
 
@StackedCrooked I think the qtdoc generator either uses doxygen somehow or is really similar to it... or they are related somehow
 
8:03 PM
yes.
 
user1804599
Yes.
 
user1804599
Such as C++.
 
@райтфолд thanks sir
 
@FredOverflow That's not important because C was never designed to be parsed in isolation.
 
user1804599
It's context-sensitivity what you're looking for.
 
8:03 PM
it was designed to be lexed, parsed, analyzed, and code-generated simultaneously, file by file.
 
@райтфолд That sounds too much like context-sensitive grammars, which has nothing to do with it.
 
@райтфолд Well, how about the most vexing parse?
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow The grammar of C is context-sensitive and non-ambiguous.
 
@Puppy I've found it to be okay so far. You can pair it up with some nice HTML and CSS to make the docs look really pretty: biogearsengine.com/documentation/a00006.html
 
@FredOverflow int(x) is a content-sensitivity.
 
user1804599
8:04 PM
Ambiguous grammars are incredibly useless.
 
@Pris They look really pretty, but they're still shit unless you put in basically all the effort yourself.
 
user1804599
@Nooble That's not ambiguous.
 
user1804599
If it were ambiguous it would result in multiple parses.
 
user1804599
But it results in exactly one parse: a function declaration.
 
@райтфолд I am not aware of a single real world language with a context-sensitive grammar. I have looked at the grammers of C and C++, and all rules are of the form Nonterminal->Whatever.
 
8:05 PM
@FredOverflow Those grammars can't actually parse C or C++.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow C++.
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow Haskell.
 
@FredOverflow Largely because it was based on Fortran's. As C was originally devised, problems like this didn't arise either--it was only later (when typedef was added) that such problems started. Early C had much worse problems (e.g., += was spelled =+).
 
@Puppy Right, that's why you need additional semantic checks.
 
@JerryCoffin o.O
 
8:06 PM
But the grammars themselves are context-free.
 
user1804599
They're only for exposition. You can't use them directly in your compiler.
 
@FredOverflow But they can't actually parse C.
the semantic checks are the context sensitivity.
 
In formal language theory, a context-free grammar (CFG) is a formal grammar in which every production rule is of the form V → w where V is a single nonterminal symbol, and w is a string of terminals and/or nonterminals (w can be empty). A formal grammar is considered "context free" when its production rules can be applied regardless of the context of a nonterminal. No matter which symbols surround it, the single nonterminal on the left hand side can always be replaced by the right hand side. Languages generated by context-free grammars are known as context-free languages (CFL). Different context...
 
they're just expressed in a different way.
 
The first sentence of that article says it all.
 
user1804599
8:07 PM
Again.
 
right, except a formal grammar for C should actually be able to parse C.
which those grammars can't.
 
user1804599
Those grammars you looked at aren't the actual grammars.
 
so they are not a context-free grammar for C.
 
What kind of grammar is lisp?
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked basically, term := number | symbol | string | '(' [ term ] ')'.
 
8:08 PM
The grammars in the holy standards are context-free grammars. Just look at them. It would be stupid if they weren't, compilers would be much slower.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked for Clojure, it's context-free.
 
@FredOverflow There is no formally-specified grammar for C or C++, at least, not in those terms.
 
user1804599
AFAIK some lisps feature context-sensitive grammars.
 
Lisp is good for writing consoles. It's just (loop (print (eval (read)))).
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked pfft
 
8:09 PM
the grammars in the holy standards cannot actually parse the language, because they can only be implemented with extra parsing routines that make semantic checks.
 
But I wonder if the real code looks exactly like that as well.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked ((comp read eval print loop)) :)
 
@Puppy Right, and the standard even says so.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked In Clojure it looks like that if you replace loop with while true.
 
there exists no context-free grammar that can parse C.
 
8:10 PM
@Puppy But it's only one letter.
 
user1804599
Although in Clojure you'd write probably it like this:
 
user1804599
(loop
  (print (eval (read)))
  (recur))
 
@FredOverflow Technically, no. thecodingforums.com/threads/…. Strange how some subjects just arise again and again. Stranger still that precisely the same examples are used (int (x)).
 
user1804599
while true is also fine.
 
neem je nu een loopje met mij?
 
user1804599
8:11 PM
But I've seen loop/recur used more often.
 
I haven't looked at Clojure since 2010 or so.
 
@JerryCoffin "C++ does in fact have a context-free grammar. Its grammar, however, is ambiguous."
 
user1804599
(while true
  (-> (read)
      (eval)
      (print)))
 
I forgot everything.
 
user1804599
-> is also very nice!
 
8:12 PM
emulates sequential style?
 
@FredOverflow Keep reading (down to my contribution on that thread). Kaz is a smart guy, but he wasn't entirely correct about this one.
 
> The vast majority of programming languages do not have grammar productions with more than one nonterminal symbol on the left. They by and large have grammar productions with a single nonterminal on the left of each rule. Therefore, they are context-free. I suspect you are confusing lack of ambiguity with context-freedom.
> Context-free grammars can be ambiguous. There can be more than way to parse a string generated by a context-free grammar. A language whose syntactic structure is defined by an ambiguous grammar needs additional semantic rules which govern how those ambiguities are resolved or diagnosed, but that is irrelevant to the question of the grammar being context-free.
So at least 1 guy on the Internet agrees with me. Proves I haven't gone insane yet.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked (-> a (b c) (d e) (f) (g h)) is equivalent to (g (f (d (b a c) e)) h).
 
I liked that I could write my entire Tetris game in one file with Clojure. No silly one class per file rules.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
8:13 PM
seque is very awesome.
 
I bought some limoncello
 
@FredOverflow Right, the grammar is context-free, it just can't parse the language in question, so it's not a grammar for that language.
 
never tried before
 
@AlexM. Nice! I don't know what that is.
 
@Nooble a liqueur
 
8:14 PM
@AlexM. at the lemon party?
 
lol
 
@Puppy What exactly do you mean by "can't parse"? There are multiple possible parses?
 
@AlexM. Nice! I can't have that.
 
ugh
now you reminded me of that website
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow No, it can't parse all C++ programs.
 
user1804599
8:15 PM
The actual C++ grammar can.
 
@FredOverflow Successfully parsing a language requires producing a single correct parse for all valid programs.
 
@райтфолд Wow. So there is a legal C++ program that cannot be derived from the C++ grammar?
 
user1804599
It can.
 
@Mysticial lol
 
user1804599
But not from the grammar you are discussing.
 
8:15 PM
This is interesting. Nooble.com is worth $50K.
 
@FredOverflow That is certainly true for all context-free grammars.
 
user1804599
Which is, again, not the C++ grammar.
 
I think I'm growing tired of this discussion.
By democratic principle, you guys win.
 
user1804599
Yeah, just use Gear instead!
 
kill() { alive = false; }
lol
 
8:16 PM
@FredOverflow could this be a simple misunderstanding? the grammar you're referring to is not actually the grammar describing the full language of C++?
 
user1804599
Gear was designed like JavaScript: in less than 10 days.
 
@melak47 You mean, exactly what I've been saying?
 
@melak47 The misunderstanding is in the term "context-free grammar". People don't seem to be able to agree on a definition. Which I find strange. But I'm cool with it :)
 
@FredOverflow The misunderstanding is what it means for a grammar to be for a language.
 
Hm.
You guys are dead early today.
 
8:20 PM
I'm not dead
 
I haven't died yet either.
 
:)
What's a better name of is_string_pair_container?
 
How can we tell without knowing what the purpose of that type is?
 
It's quite literally in the name.
 
it's clearly to determine whether or not a thing is a container of a pair of strings.
 
8:21 PM
@Rapptz is_spc
v0v
 
you seriously suck.
 
If you wanted to shorten it, anyway.
 
don't ever give programming advice.
 
@Rapptz is_container_of<std::pair<std::string, std::string>>
 
@Rapptz Why not is_container<std::pair<std::string, std::string>>?
lol
 
8:22 PM
Because it works with std::pair<const char*, std::string> and any permutation around those two types.
 
a std::vector<const char*> is not a container of strings.
it's a container of pointers.
 
@Puppy Correct. Although it'd be better if I had a straw in hand, it would make this whole "water transportation" business a lot easier.
 
user1804599
> Astronomers find ancient black hole the size of 12 billion suns
 
user1804599
Holy shit, that's a lot of suns!
 
mmm
it's tasty
I can definitely see this becoming a favorite this summer
 
8:24 PM
@Rapptz how'd you implement the is_container part? iterator_traits on the decltype(Container().begin()) ? :p
 
I'll try this sometime in the future
> 1 ounce Limoncello
1 ounce gin
4 ounces club soda
Lots of ice
Lemon peel, for garnish
 
user1804599
Procedural programming is awesome.
 
@AlexM. Needs more ice.
 
@melak47 It's a very loose requirement.
I'm just checking if it has iterators and if those iterators return a pair of std::string/c-style strings.
 
@Nooble never enough ice
 
8:25 PM
@AlexM. who measures liquids in ounces?
 
Americans.
 
@melak47 this site I guess
 
@Rapptz Anything, really.
 
the site I took the recipe from I mean
 
@LucDanton I know.
I'm out of names though lol
 
user1804599
8:26 PM
@melak47 I know a store that measures DVDs in kilograms.
 
@Nooble here, a proper amount of ice in a mojito
 
user1804599
You can buy DVDs there and you pay per kilogram.
 
How come your strings come in pair? Perhaps we can find a name for that first?
 
@райтфолд Not unreasonable if blank.
 
key-value
 
8:26 PM
There you go. Key-value container.
 
user1804599
I often want an indexed set data type.
 
@AlexM. Proper? Looks like it needs double the amount of ice to me.
 
is_stringly_typed_key_value_containerish_thing
 
user1804599
Like IxSet in Haskell.
 
It's a pseudo concept!
@LucDanton Yeah I guess that works.
 
8:27 PM
@Nooble doubling it would overflow
 
user1804599
But with a less horrible API.
 
is_pseudo_stringly_typed_key_value_containerish_thing
 
@AlexM. That's the joke. I'm horrible at jokes.
 
user1804599
Some in-memory relational object database is what I want.
 
@melak47 How come Context-sensitive grammar doesn't mention programming at all, only natural languages?
 
8:29 PM
lol apparently there's this course this semester
a particular attendance is required
basically when a company comes in to advertise their tester positions
why the fuck
how much of a sad fuck must you be to finish CS and take a job as a tester
 
user1804599
because they need testers
 
yes
and you only need high school to get employed in testing
and they come to advertise to a bunch of final year CS students, most of which who already work as programmers
 
@FredOverflow IIRC classification/description of natural languages was its original purpose.
 
and went through a mandatory month of programming work at a company (otherwise you can't pass the year)
but you know anything is possible I guess
I know a guy who finished a CS - economics combo and works as a tester, and a guy who finished some banking college doing backend web crap in the same company
 
@AlexM. Testers make a lot of money, depending no the company.
 
8:33 PM
I doubt they make more than their programmers though
 
How is testing not programming? Or are we talking non-automated testing?
 
we're talking people testing end products for bugs
as in game testers
the course is about testing software so I guess it fits
but making this crap mandatory is silly
 
@FredOverflow I dunno :)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Short of specifying actual lexical and grammar rules and their precedence, I don't know how to give a more specific answer to his question. The grammar rule that interprets that string of tokens as a function pointer is given precedence over other parses because that is what the C++ standard decided. This isn't valid C code at all because the parameter name is missing. — jschultz410 37 mins ago
Is that true? Is int f(int); illegal in C?
@melak47 It's because context-sensitive grammers have no use in programming.
 
@AlexM. what's wrong with testing? if it pays, it pays
AND if you're happy doing it, you're happy.
 
street cleaning also pays
 
if(pay && happy)
return;
yeah but street cleaning isn't a happy job brb sun brb pedestrians brb disrespect
ew......sun.
 
you're missing the point by so much
I don't have anything against testing
 
@FredOverflow though I do remember thinking that it was
 
8:44 PM
Testing video games must be an awesome job.
 
(hence all that legacy int f(int /*crap*/) paradigming)
 
@AlexM. ???????????
:21836436
 
@FredOverflow judging by how it works at my company, I don't think so :(
@DonLarynx did you even read what I said, start to end
there are lots of testers here so to keep them under control they're on tight schedules
 
> [C99: 6.7.5.3/6]: A parameter type list specifies the types of, and may declare identifiers for, the parameters of the function.
 
with attendance monitoring and all that
also crunch time very often
 
8:46 PM
@FredOverflow Isn't that also illegal in Java?
 
@AlexM. well that doesn't sound very free
 
BTW, regarding "This isn't valid C code at all because the parameter name is missing": [C99: 6.7.5.3/6]: "A parameter type list specifies the types of, and may declare identifiers for, the parameters of the function." and coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/eb9108e21d07c2f3Lightness Races in Orbit 18 secs ago
let's see what he says
 
miserable even
 
I'm not 100% on this
 
user1804599
lol in PHP you can get a callback for every executed statement.
 
8:47 PM
I'm free to go to work at any hour I want, nobody monitors me, I can leave one hour or two early (I spend more time there the next day though, to be correct) if I want
you can't do that as a tester
 
@Jefffrey It is illegal in Java. But how would that make it illegal in C?
 
@FredOverflow Dunno, seems stupid.
 
@Jefffrey It's probably illegal in Java so you can annotate the parameters with @param tags.
 
user1804599
Java is illegal.
 
> I'm sorry, I think these discussions are kind of silly, what is the programming language... of course Java is the worst!
 
user1804599
8:50 PM
Lekker, een worst.
 
user1804599
Ik houd heel veel van worst.
 
@AlexM. Is your company hiring? :)
 
I'm tired of "Java sucks" and "PHP sucks" arguments.
Am I growing old?
 
@FredOverflow always
hop in
 
@AlexM. Can you work remotely?
 
8:51 PM
Coming to work whenever I want sounds like a dream job.
 
user1804599
"never"
 
@Jefffrey nah
 
user1804599
do you still get paid for the hours you don't go?
 
or I dunno
 
@FredOverflow never-job
 
8:51 PM
I'd first have to do that VPN thingy
so I can access their private network from home
 
@Jefffrey It's only tiring when everybody agrees with you. Try discusing Java with the Java fanboys over in the Java room.
 
not sure if it's allowed
 
@AlexM. Use VNC or something.
 
most people I've seen use teamviewer or w/e
 
@FredOverflow True
 
8:52 PM
@Nooble probably really painful for day to day work :P
 
user1804599
@FredOverflow lol
 
user1804599
Java
 
even those who use teamviewer, only use it to answer a mail or sth
 
user1804599
Java sucks!
 
@AlexM. Where can I find info on your company?
 
8:52 PM
but really, I don't mind not being able to work remotely
I usually refuse to give my private phone number to employees for work related stuff too
I don't want work to creep in my spare time
@FredOverflow gameloft.ro
you probably don't want to come to Romania though :P
 
@AlexM. Cool.
 
although Cluj-Napoca is nice
 
@AlexM. affirmative
 
@FredOverflow gameloft.de
 
> Gameloft is looking for C++ Developers!
 
8:54 PM
@Jefffrey Those are not "arguments". They are shit-slinging contests.
 
you were in Germany right?
 
link to sandbox?
 
can't remember if there's a studio there
 
> we are looking for people who are exceptionally creative and open-minded, regardless of their level of experience.
 
also if you're serious be sure to look for a C++ dev position in the libs & tools stuff if you can
 
8:55 PM
I don't think of myself as creative. I can hardly draw stick figures.
 
user1804599
what is a loft?
 
@райтфолд It's where Lara Croft lives.
 
I don't know for sure but I'm almost certain that gamedevs are just as punished as they are in any other company (wrt to schedule and crunch time)
libs & tools have it easy
 
@AlexM. I'm still unsure whether I should pursue a C++ carreer or not.
I mean, the language is so fucking terrible.
 
8:56 PM
only did 2 hours of crunch time in 7 months or so
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey Now they're happy. In fifteen years they'll discover how terrible life is and how horrible the world is that they live in. Poor sods. :(
 
@FredOverflow wait until you get to work with people who don't know that
well, unless you don't
then you don't get to work with them
 
writing a general purpose application loop is hard :[
 
@райтфолд Neither life nor the world is terrible.
Not the one you live in at least.
 
the words general purpose are terrible
 
8:59 PM
@AlexM. "Tolle Handy-Spiele für iOS,..."
 

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