« first day (1594 days earlier)      last day (3361 days later) » 

4:00 PM
It says... weird function call with named parameters.
 
true, but is it worth adding a new syntax that's foreign to PHP because another language uses it, when there's already syntax in PHP designed for that very thing.
 
no. 100% agreed.
 
it's very much a lesser of evils thing
 
o/
 
@ircmaxell who uses the tick and encoding directives, though?
 
4:05 PM
@thwd not many people
 
It's a highly specific use-case (profiling)
Well, I guess there's other odd uses too
 
I've used it to simulate multi-threading in the past
 
@ircmaxell maybe after the scalar type hinting RFC is through and things settle, it would be worth a thought if declare should remain in its current form. The jump to PHP7 would be a good excuse to make it more intuitive; so that future RFCs can build on that.
 
can you elaborate on what that might look like??
 
Trailing characters in #PHP numeric strings: 5.0: allowed 5.1: not allowed 5.2: allowed 7.0 with Zeev RFC: not allowed Make your mind up!
trolololol
 
4:10 PM
@ircmaxell like, impromptu:
pragma strict_types 1;
 
@Andrea :-P
 
wait, that tweet was wrong, re-doing
 
Hello everyone. Anyone knows a good free course for learn how to work with symfony or laravel with video?
 
François replied.
 
@ManuelRocha I hear that Google has knowledge of such things. have you asked them?
 
4:13 PM
Trailing chars in #PHP numeric strings: 4.x: allowed 5.0: not allowed 5.x: allowed 7.0 with Zeev's RFC: not allowed Make your mind up! 😠
 
> Agreed. That's why, in the future, we may add new 'strict' type hint that will accept nothing but their native type. We didn't add them here because it would have been too confusing for a first release, and the whole discussion is already complex enough. But I agree they can have some use. The difference with the other RFC is that, we can add strict types in the future but, is you choose the other RFC, it's a much more radical decision because dual mode will remain forever.
So, in other words: we may do exactly what the other proposal is saying to do, but from the callee side instead of the caller side.. With far worse concequences (forcing people to cast)
 
> About BC, I don't think we are too lax with BC because developers would have
years to fix a pair of lines in their code.
I don't want to wait years to upgrade.
 
> A strong MAC would be calculated and appended to the result.
@Leigh why append?
 
why not
 
k
 
4:15 PM
you're going to process the full string anyway to calculate the mac, doesn't matter where it lives
Hm, decrypt should have been : mixed I guess, to return false on mac validation failure. Oh well
 
@Leigh just find it kinda weird to append the mac, especially with variable length cipher modes
 
I would imagine: $algoid | $mac | $iv | $ciphertext (where algoid defines the size of both mac and iv)
 
@Andrea :-)
 
@NikiC Good point, CTR is stream and not necessarily block aligned.
 
4:23 PM
tho, ideally, $mac | $algoid | $iv | $ciphertext as then it's easy to compute the MAC (since you need to include the algoid in the mac)
but then you run into a circular dependency: mac needs to know about algoid, but you need to know algoid to know mac
 
or you just drop the whole algoid thing ;)
 
@Machavity Ya and even found this (stackoverflow.com/questions/7844506/…) but some links are already down and I would like something like podcast.
 
@NikiC you need it, because what if we find a bug in an old implementation?
 
@ircmaxell then we're screwed :P
 
@ircmaxell what? different rules for userland vs internal functions?
 
4:25 PM
@ircmaxell Then aes_* would be deprecated immediately, by those not watching as the world burns
 
@beberlei where?
oh, in Zeev's proposal, yeah
 
@ircmaxell you mentioned coercisve rfc was updated
sigh, this gets worse every day
 
@NikiC what if we want to move to AESv2-256?
@beberlei yup
@ircmaxell @nikita_ppv having two modes too make everybody happy is a horrible decision https://wiki.php.net/rfc/coercive_sth
@ircmaxell @nikita_ppv Not everybody will be using scalar type hints. Internal functions can be "consistent" with weakly typed code.
 
hm it seems showing the diff between versions on the wiki takes ages
 
yup
 
4:26 PM
awesome software :o
 
@ircmaxell No big deal if internal functions would be more tolerant than my userland code. Actually this is what I want from typehints.
 
@ircmaxell then aes2_* gets added
 
@Leigh you still need a way of identifying the format...
honestly, I think something like crypt should be built, then a simplified "wrapper" like password_hash
@beberlei when it gets announced, be sure to leave your feedback :-)
 
Well, I'm a proponent of a generic framework, but I'm not (usually) in the 99%
 
hahahaha maximum execution timeout on the diff calculation in php wiki
wtf is this doing
 
4:30 PM
@beberlei hooray for PHP
 
wait… where are there two modes?
 
@beberlei E_TOO_MANY_RFCS
 
The only thing is throwing E_DEPRECATED for internal functions which sounds reasonable and can hardly count as a separate mode…
 
It's been getting slower for weeks.
 
I'm watching to see if @Andrea can resist voting, maybe at the very end :P
 
4:32 PM
allowing int->float but not float->int irks me, but oh well.
 
@bwoebi internal functions allow null => scalar cast, i.e. 0 or false, but userland would not alow this
@bwoebi its bullet two of the mitigation strategies
apparently necessary to drive down test failures from 8% to something acceptable ;)
 
I've conceded that there's not enough for me to dislike for me to vote against what I like.
 
let me rephase acceptable to "acceptable"
 
(disclaimer: from someone I work with, but interesting article nonetheless.) Containers are the new static binaries
 
@beberlei uh… damn.
What's that insanity?
 
4:33 PM
Hopefully the sheeple will see more Yes votes than the last one and follow suit :p
 
i say if null => 0|false|"" is necessary, then make this behave the same way in userland as well
 
@beberlei that was my idea! :D
Actually, both RFCs kinda lie there.
zpp is more complex than that, it has (at least?) two different NULL handling modes
The default is to convert NULL to the target type, so int/float/string/boolean, you know.
 
unless it's marked as potentially accepting null…
 
However, there's also the null-checking mode, where it won't convert if it's null and it'll set a flag
I think there may also be a never-null mode but I don't know
 
never-null? never seen
 
4:36 PM
Yeah, I guess not
The main problem is that now int $foo = NULL and int $foo BOTH accept NULL if we keep zpp's behaviour, roughly...
Having null not be accepted normally is more likely to catch errors, I think, and more intuitive
But changing it for zpp would break things etc.
 
morning again
 
Well, either we always accept null or never, but not two modes…
 
foreach($reporting->results['vendorResponse'] as $key => $value)
{
  if($value->count() != 0)
  {
    foreach($value->children() as $value2)
    {
      if($value2->count() != 0)
      {
        foreach($value2->children() as $value3)
        {
          if($value3->count() != 0)
          {
            foreach($value3->children() as $value4)
            {
              if($value4->count() != 0)
              {
                foreach($value4->children() as $value5)
                {
                  if($value5->count() != 0)
 
reminds me
I remember someone reimplementing strip_tags for <script>
 
:P
 
4:46 PM
the code was like: for ($i = 0; $i < count($string); $i++) { if ($string[$i] === '<') { for ($j = 0; $j < count($string); $j++) { if ($string[$j] === 's') { ... etc etc
not this exactly, but you get the idea...
 
ow wow. Looks like the SE design people made something that actually doesn't suck that bad
@FlorianMargaine lol!
 
@FlorianMargaine weird that article states the main drawback and problem with docker, yet still embraces it.
 
@beberlei yes, because the advantages are amazing. It explains how to avoid the main drawback though
(repeatable builds)
 
yes, however when i look at the docker community, most of them dont embrace repeatable builds, they only copy binary patches over each other using docker registry
 
can't say, haven't followed the docker community
 
5:00 PM
Strict by default extension for those who want/need it.
2
 
@Leigh nice
 
@Leigh oh god
 
Sup? :)
 
posted on February 26, 2015 by kbironneau

/* by @cabrera_dev */

 
@ircmaxell Why 2 weeks for the STH RFC?
 
5:03 PM
Aw shit, I broke the hook chain
 
The previous RFC showed that only a week, at best, is necessary
After 10 days 100 people had voted, and it looked like we had almost completely depleted the pool of available voters
 
@Andrea because of the other RFC not going to vote before next week probably (2 weeks discussion phase)
 
holding two votes simultaneously is messy
 
Moorning
 
@Andrea why not?
@Andrea what choice is there?
 
5:08 PM
@ircmaxell hold a vote for one proposal. if it fails, the other could be voted on.
That, or hold a multi-choice vote
But two simultaneous Yes/No votes is chaos, especially if both of them achieve a majority
@ircmaxell It's such an important issue that the turnout within one week includes virtually everyone. The second week ends up just being vote-bargaining
 
Well obviously the one with the majority of the majority wins
 
@Andrea then theres a vote-off at the end
 
Hmm.
 
one passes with 90%, one passes with 67%, a 50/50 at the end doesn't seem fair
 
@NikiC you understand it?
 
5:12 PM
@Andrea Xichen
@Andrea Except then Zeev and Francois will scream
 
@ircmaxell Ah
 
Have they released an implementation yet?
 
@ircmaxell well, yes.
@Leigh if they do I will pick a billion holes in it
 
@Andrea I'd rather "play fair" to give them the least amount of ammunition possible
 
@Leigh I don't think they already have the final patch
 
5:13 PM
Not out of malice, just that I've done the same thing before and it's hard
@ircmaxell That may be the right choice, yeah
 
@Leigh I really doubt the coercive RFC will pass as it's got far too much BC break. There's not that much point worrying about scenarios until they're at least somewhat likely.
 
@ircmaxell You have to, we don't :)
 
> Instead of rejecting the whole RFC, you can ask to keep supporting leading and trailing blanks in numeric strings. That's something that is really still under discussion, even between authors. To be clear, I prefer authorizing leading and trailing blanks (but just blanks), Zeev prefers restricting it, and I am not sure about Dmitry's preference. So you see it
is still open !
Fraçois is saying on the ML:
 
@Leigh I'm not arguing :-P
 
5:17 PM
@marcio but supporting "123 apples" is a key feature
Also, I recall Zeev saying many times that he loves that feature and it's super-useful to him
 
I'm going to start a rumour that they want to introduce a currency type that automatically converts based on locale and current exchange rates
8
 
and that we can't expect people to have to use input filtering, sanitisation or validation themselves, and relying on zpp to do it for you is a great thing
@Leigh declare(currency='ILS');
 
@Andrea yes, and that indecision smells like draft proposal to me. It couldn't be voted yet. So there is no way to "play fair game" and do a double voting.
 
Going to go and wash and go out, been a complete slob since I quit, my mouth tastes like there is a bear living in it. Back later
 
there's almost no way to agree on changes to the scalar type hint rules
I've gone through that before.
It's possible to change little things, I've done that (ZPP Failure on Overflow, rejecting NULL for userland)
 
5:19 PM
@marcio they have 1.5 weeks (until the 8th) to come up with a final proposal (1 week for discussion to start vote on the 15th)
 
But any major changes are highly, highly controversial
 
@Andrea yup, and doing them in 8 is still doing them. Delaying extreme pain is still going to be extreme pain
 
@JoeWatkins @Ja͢ck Status of UString RFC? It should probably go to a vote, the implementation's mostly done (there's some minor things to fix - empty string handling, references to codepoints, but otherwise it's done)
 
@ircmaxell I meant now. If they finish their proposal before the freeze and with a chance to pass, that's another story.
 
@ircmaxell yep
I do wonder how much pain ZPP Failure on Overflow will cause, actually
 
5:22 PM
@Andrea I doubt many
but the null and bool -> int/string will cause a crap load of pain
10/2 :-P
 
i need to hack faster on my react.js app that builds an event stream of votes for RFCs ffs, anthony opened the vote too early ;-)
 
:-D
 
10/3
 
psst, I may vote Yes at the last minute if you badger me
although it's somewhat questionable for me to do that
 
why is that? its totally legimate
 
5:28 PM
@ircmaxell Have been busy today, only just saw that message! I've joined the channel, and will catch up with the scrollback this evening. :)
 
@beberlei I don't care for PHP
 
@rdlowrey do you have another nickname on irc?
 
@Andrea ask me in a couple of days, not well
 
@salathe if you don't mind, can you make me a admin on the repo (so I can add others as admin as well)?
also: awesome
 
@JoeWatkins alright
@JoeWatkins I'd suggest just pinging internals and announcing the intention to hold a vote sometime soon
 
5:36 PM
yeah I'll poke phil, wanted to fix outstanding stuff first though ...
you can commit there ?
Jack can I think, anyone is welcome to move on it ...
 
The probe to Ceres is finding something weird: en.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/2x88ex/…
 
Did somebody create a php7 container thing yet=
 
@JoeWatkins yep
 
5:55 PM
> If needle is not a string, it is converted to an integer and applied as the ordinal value of a character. (strpos)
Should the in operator support this or should it convert ints & floats to strings?
 
Are you asking whether we really should introduce insanity when we can avoid it?
 
@kelunik pleeeease not
if (0 in 1.0) like wtf
 
@NikiC I'm only talking about $needle.
sapi/cli/php -r 'var_dump(0 in 1.0);' => bool(false) currently.
 
@VeeeneX lol
 
6:02 PM
I had the same reaction
 
@NikiC eih… 0 in 1.01 will return true… but 0 in 1.0 won't.
 
Zeev replied as well
 
@VeeeneX this deserves a benchmark against HipHop dancers ;)
 
yay go php7 =]
 
@NikiC when iterating over traversables for in operator… should I iterate until first match or always completely iterate? Both can make sense… but not sure what people would expect...
 
6:07 PM
@bwoebi to first match
 
@bwoebi Should we only allow string, array and Traversable for $haystack?
 
@kelunik well, currently casting long and double to string, but maybe…
@NikiC really? hmm…
 
@kelunik yes
 
@kelunik yes
 
we should get away from objects-are-always-traversable. We no longer support this directly in newer functionality
 
6:10 PM
STH vote....
 
Same for $needle or not?
 
the votes are pretty weird wrt STH
 
@kelunik no.
 
all the people usually voting against BC breaks are voting for BC breaks...
 
@FlorianMargaine there's no BC break?
 
6:12 PM
@bwoebi There's one. Classes named int, ... are no longer allowed.
@bwoebi Yes, but I think it should be consistent.
 
@kelunik oh, well. That…
 
@bwoebi yes, and people are voting against it but will vote for the other RFC, that has plenty of BC breaks
I mean people like rasmus, stas etc
 
@FlorianMargaine except Derick
 
yeah, Derick seems to be the consistent one
 
resen
 
ThW
6:15 PM
ZF has a class Integer, actually :-)
 
@NikiC interesting idea.
 
@ircmaxell you might be interested in something like this
 
I know
@ThW I only support Int, so no problem :-D
 
@VeeeneX Man, that's a name I havent' seen in a long time.
 
@Charles What do you mean?
 
@VeeeneX It's actually a 'valid' thing to do.
 
@VeeeneX Ray Paseur.
 
@ircmaxell Are the types in your RFC case-sensitive? I'm assuming not, fwiw
 
6:52 PM
Uhmmm
 
@VeeeneX Check out the project I linked in the comment.
 
Yes, I see
 
@Sara it should be, because of consistency with function(ARRAY $a){}
though it's fugly :/
 
@marcio I agree on both points, just wanted to confirm.
 
7:18 PM
God Symfony's HTTP stuff is a ParameterBag of sheit...
 
@Sara they shouldn't be
 
@ircmaxell Agreed. Just checkin'. :)
 
$ sapi/cli/php -r 'function foo(INT $abc): InT { return $abc; } var_dump(foo(10));'
int(10)
 
@ircmaxell I just got back from lunch, and it seems that quite the discussion has been started (even Rasmus has replied now)!
 
@ircmaxell Yay! \o/
I may be a bit behind on the "Exceptions in the Engine" RFC, but it seems like a really BAD idea to implicitly turn all E_ERROR into exceptions. E_ERROR (as opposed to E_RECOVERABLE_ERROR) generally means that shit went really wrong. There are a ton of assumptions about the engine now cleaning up the whole request. If that no longer happens lots of stuff is fucked.
 
7:24 PM
@Sara There's no implicit conversion
It's a manual, case-by-case basis conversion
Practically everything thrown from the VM can be converted to exception with one or two extra lines of code
 
Ah, that changes things entirely.
@NikiC Thanks, I looked again. My first reading came across very different.
 
hm ... the webscalesql repo is huuuuge
also, why did they call it that? does mysql try to compete with mongo in hipster naming?
@Sara Yeah sorry, I can see how that isn't obvious from the RFC
 
@NikiC If I had a dollar for every time I thought FB's naming sucked...
 
With my internet I feel it's gonna take longer to download that repo than compile hhvm
 
@ircmaxell thats what i am talking about, php-rfc-watch.beberlei.de ;-)
4
its not super useful yet, updates every 5 minutes
 
7:34 PM
what is it supposed to show?
 
@beberlei Is the page supposed to be empty?
 
should maybe compute what the current rfcs vote percentage is
 
@beberlei E_DOESNT_WORK :P
 
host not reachable?
 
Only title
 
7:36 PM
WTF WORKS FOR ME
 
hmm, script type="text/javascript" src="http://localhost:8090/assets/bundle.js"></script>
not so helpful i guess
 
Download the React DevTools for a better development experience: fb.me/react-devtools
php-rfc-watch.beberlei.de/:23 GET localhost:8090/assets/bundle.js net::ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED
localhost:8090/favicon.ico:1 GET localhost:8090/favicon.ico net::ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED
hehe
rookie mistake ;)
 
:-)
 
:D
 
7:38 PM
:)
 
:-D
 
Makes the shape of an 'L' on her forehead
 
maybe now its working?
 
Yes much better
Looks cool
Needs shiny graphs and moar bling though :)
 
Awesome ;) Notes: Symfony favicon, and missing ability to bookmark specific votes (or search by user ;D).
 
7:40 PM
LOVE IT
 
pulll requests appreciated!! github.com/beberlei/php-rfc-watch
 
@beberlei WTB vote totals as a summary column on the right
 
Also tell that ul to put its bulletpoints where the sun doesnt shine
 
@Sara yes thats next on the list, anthony was so evil as to open his vote before i was fully ready!
 
:D
 
7:41 PM
so i needed to emergency deploy, so that the site can start collecting the data already
 
Also <3 that you're using React. I'm literally sitting in a FB DevInfra talk about React's adoption right now.
 
Hey
 
well i wanted to learn react
this is simple enough to try it
 
Anyone an idea what kind of validation this Poll is using? epoll.me/v/ACa1_GHSPuE
 
I need to learn it at some point. :p
 
7:41 PM
My friends are playing in the band-pile up but the band 'Underground Commotion
is always winning
Is it easy to detect how it's filtering the votes? ( Is it using cookies or ip validation or something? )
 
BTW @beberlei you are in the wrong timezone ;)
 
@PeeHaa this is using javascript date voodoo, no clue how that reacts to UTC unix timestamps coming from the server. I hate javascript date
 
@beberlei Oh god. Javascript dates. Yeap you are fucked :P
 
i expected as much
 
@PeeHaa nice! can we have a little header showing the current vote count?
 
7:46 PM
@marcio Sure we can!
But you will have to ask @beberlei :P
 
@beberlei ^
 
yes will work on that after fixing the duplicate votes and such shopstoppers ;)
the only thing i actually wrote tests for fails in production!
tests dont work, qed
 
:D
 
@beberlei thanks for that, the days of auto-refresh and too much distraction during work are gone :D I personally care more about the voting count, so having it at the top would be cool.
 
The code was 'working' before it was tested, therefor tests break code.
13
 
7:54 PM
hm ok, you shouldnt have 3 loops nested in each other and then reuse variables from them all over again
i did know that
 
@AllenJB lol, are they butthurt that they can't have a tiered system?
 

« first day (1594 days earlier)      last day (3361 days later) »