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12:10 AM
@JeroldHaas Looks like its getting there, you colours are all wrong though on the text :-)
If anyone uses F# libs from C# in Xamarin Studio, you will be pleased to know that autocompletion now works :-)
 
 
4 hours later…
3:55 AM
@7sharp9 my goal at the moment isn't get colours correct but to get the controls pulling from gtkrc
I'll not fuss with the styles until later, and will have a UI designer help with that.
MD/XS team will probably help with that too.
there are a lot of new controls that are using hard-coded styles using new Cairo.Color and my aim is to centralise all dependencies to one file for easy styling.
I'm not worried about "pretty" now, I'm worried about FIXING IT. ;)
as of now I consider the internals broken, due to the hard-coded colours and styles
Deprecate Styles.cs!!!!
 
 
6 hours later…
9:57 AM
@JeroldHaas Well I was only joking, colours are pretty important to me. For example, I have mutable highlighted in red and various other things like that.
 
I have a few controls pulling from gtkrc right now. I'm whittling it down, one by one. Then I have to figure out how it all gets assigned.
I may have to make fixes as right now I'm using Style.Backgrounds[]
And I'm affecting UI controls, not the editor's colorisations.
There's another theme control in OPtions for that... ;)
text colours are for you to fix @7sharp9 :P
 
 
2 hours later…
12:22 PM
The colour of magic has to be correct, otherwise there can be dire consequences :-p
 
well this is 20h or so of work @7sharp9
All pads, etc., pulling from gtkrc
just have some borders and that ghastly properties grid container to sort
it's a bit of a hack right now because of the syntax of the gtkrc
widget_class * theme "normal"
so any specifics will have issues
and some component parts still aren't honouring the gtkrc, like those pale thin bits
but for the time spent I'm quite proud of the results
and it's very nearly ready to have dev teams drop in a drop-down list to select the rc file
IdeStartup.cs only needs 2 lines modded
or is it 5 un-commented? not sure. I did that a bit early on
 
1:07 PM
I want to think about how many hours I have spent on tooltip formatting and highlight colours
 
1:21 PM
@7sharp9 you don't use a time logging utility?
Even if not billable, it helps for post-mortem, estimate accuracy, and a slew of other personal enhancement benefits.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:32 PM
Nope, Im very chaotic
 
 
4 hours later…
6:03 PM
in C#, 3 mins ago, by BradleyDotNET
Immutability is overrated :)
 
I don't see how; it only got 4 stars on yelp
OOP religionists do not want to change, and thus will disparage anything that implicates the need to do so
 
I posted it here so I could post that I posted it here as a reply to him :)
 
popular religions - statism, theism, atheism, environmentalism, feminism, and somehow object-orientation.
never engage with any of said adherents
 
6:19 PM
dunno what the first two are
 
6:49 PM
@BryanEdds object-orientationism
 
amen
 
7:24 PM
I don't fully agree with the first one, but they are enjoyably interesting
it's nice to see some different perspectives are aren't pure religiosity
 
7:47 PM
I'm not sure how that relates to the second article?
my interpretation was that he was tired of people using "WIB" to defame people who point out problems as 'purists / academics / ideologues' in order to shut down discussion.
I didn't see anything explicitly about standards
meh, blogs
ya, now I know what you mean
I did not find that to be too material to the article, however
and while I would probably never use ELM, the idea of FRP is something the industry really needs to pick up
I specifically think my 'iterative' formulation of FRP deserves scrutiny - lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5110
what kind of statement?
the problem is that it's a catch-22
such projects require funding, and industry does not fund those methods, generally
so, people have to do their own thinking and analysis, which is hard
how much industry experience do you have?
so you've never worked at an established corporation?
my point is that your unvaried experience may cause you to have difficulty seeing from the other perspective
start-ups are the only place anything new can be tried, that's true
but even with massively experimental stuff like my work, there is no funding
to really do something new, you're pretty much on your own
it is
it is terrible
 
8:06 PM
I've worked for large corporations
 
it's why it takes years to change anything in the software industry
 
it really depends, though - you can have flexibility in any environment, but it's much more difficult in a large enterprise to push changes
 
to exist as a human being
you know of a way not to?
you may not appreciate the scope of my work
 
@ton.yeung I'm saying, in a large scale corporate environment, you can still push new technology, new tooling, new ways of working, etc - but it's typically a different beast than when you do it in a startup, since you have to typically approach it from a RoI/cost-benefit POV
 
I have a physical limiatation on how much I can type
plus limitations of stress also matter
 
8:09 PM
@ton.yeung typically - the thing is, the larger the enterprise, the more they'll be hesitant to take on risk, and the more you need to show them the business justifications, not just technical justifications
 
the human body and mind is not meant to be worked 16 hrs / day on programming for very long
or even 12
the other problem is that most technical decisions at corporations are based on religion, not evidence or reason
 
@ton.yeung Well, the business justifications have to also include costs of migration, retraining, lack of integration capabilities, risk/support/etc issues, etc
but yes, even if something's better it doesn't always mean it's enough better to justify a change
but you still can do it - I did it a lot
yes, retraining is a huge one
 
we live in a pretty silly world, but as we mature, we learn to work around a lot of it
 
and it's one most tech people significantly underestimate/underrate
 
what it moreso underestimated is the cost of not changing
hell, it's usually not even recognized as a cost at all
 
8:15 PM
opportunity cost has the disadvantage of being almost impossible to quantify
it's almost always subjective
people get burned by opportunity cost too often, too
 
in for a dime, in for a dollar :)
 
8:29 PM
@ton.yeung yeah, I learned that one early on ;) my first "real job" was at a big firm
and they had spent $180K on a consulting firm to try to build them a custom application, and they were saying it was going to cost at least another 60K. I ended up having to convince them to cut their losses and just forget it
hehehe
 
BTW - here's an interesting 'paper' on my work
Iterative Functional Reactive Programming with the Nu Game Engine - An Informal Experience Report - lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/5110
The previously starred one on the right is a broken link
hehe, thanks :)
 
there - switched which one's there for you ;)
 
I kinda like the paper, even if it's entirely informal
SDL2
wait, site?
you mean where is the paper hosted?
it's at github
oh wait
that's lambda-the-ultimate
nope, not mine :)
in fact, I have a lot of trouble understanding half of what's posted / discussed there
 
9:39 PM
@ReedCopsey you around?
 
yes
 
I'm still making (slow) progress on my talk
I think I have a couple of main ideas I want to use
I like SOLID but think it isn't basic enough
stealing a little bit from SICP and Simple Made Easy, I'm thinking any evaluation of code should be done using 2 things:
1. Is the code simple, where simple is defined as the degree to which a system has been separated out such that each component can be considered on its own, with minimal reference to other components
2. Abstraction, whereby things which cannot be made simpler are hidden behind a simple interface
Does that seem defective or missing anything?
obviously there are ideas which could be build on top of those two things
Along with those two ideas are a few questions:
1. How many places in code need to be understood to understand this line of code
2. How many responsibilities does piece of code have
3. Is there a way to separate this component into simpler pieces
4. Do the abstractions used decrease cognitive load (i.e. the number of ideas which must be understood to understand the piece of code)
eventually I have to have a series of examples demonstrating how these play out
and how you can build things like SOLID from them (or more FP ideas)
Any sort of feedback/criticism is welcome from anyone.
 
S is the best part of solid imo. Not meaning solid is not good.
 
9:54 PM
From my limited knowledge, it seems like solid is just about making each piece simple and not making abstractions useless
I like the general premises, but it seems really bogged down in details
 
SRP can be acted on constantly. For methods, classes, libraries.
 
maybe that has more to do with how people focus on SOLID over other types of code quality rather than a beef with SOLID itself
yeah
 
The rest of the olid is so CSy I have to look it up to remember what it means :)
 
Simple Components with complexity behind abstractions
 
yagni/kiss & dry are pretty simple
 
9:58 PM
I thought it was kiss and tell, not kiss and dry
 
I like KISS expanded as Keep It Simple and Small
 
that's NOT what she said.
 
@Maslow Maybe I'm a poor kisser?
 
could be
 
Small is important imo. Complexity scales exponentially to size.
 
10:00 PM
sounds like you are taking my last 3 sentences far more seriously than I intended
 
:)
The discussion threaded
do you write F# fulltime now?
 
O - Open/Closed - open for extension, but closed for modification
basically just a restatement of single responsibility IMO

L - Liskov substitution principle - objects should be replaceable with their subtypes without changing the correctness of the application
This is just saying, keep an abstraction consistent across uses

I - Interface segregation - minimize the connection between pieces
Again, just another restatement of keeping it simple

D - dependency inversion - depend on abstractions on implementations
which is why I think it should be more about simple parts and consistent abstractions
 
@mydogisbox dang I got distracted, I was doin that =)
 
SOLID is nice, but should be derivable if you understand simplicity and abstractions
@Maslow ;-)
Anything else I should add to simple parts and consistent abstractions?
It could just be entirely reduced down to : minimize cognitive load
 
that's why Scott Wlaschin's talk shows OO design patterns (including SOLID), and "Functions" for FP everywhere
 
10:06 PM
yeah
maybe I should watch that talk
 
> Simple ain't easy. -- Thelonious Monk.
 
maybe unless you're Rich Hickey?
 
possibly but then he probably worked for it also
 
true
 
10:45 PM
simplin ain't easy but it's necessary
- Big Daddy Kane
ack, sry, Ice Cube
 

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