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10:00 PM
now you've got passive to go with your aggressive
 
I think a main question to ask here is: How do you determine who is a help vampire, and what do you do if a regular does decide to help one?
 
well, the topics I had comments for are done and I'm not allowed to comment on them now, so I don't see a point in staying here. yes I'm annoyed at how these meetings are run, no I don't have a better suggestion.
 
This whole meeting was initiated as a result of @Jhawins helping one such vampie.
 
user1596138
> Do not Help Vampire... Seriously, we all have to learn this shit and you should too! Don't expect us to write your code for you unless you are willing to shell out a bit of dough. For more details see Asking for Help.
 
user1596138
This is from the rules linked in the description.
 
10:01 PM
@SecondRikudo open a private room with them - I've done it once or twice and it went really well.
In general, having a 1 on 1 works wonders and people agree a lot more.
 
@SecondRikudo If the user shows no sign of effort, I'll ignore. What another RO does here doesn't concern me
 
It comes off as less of an attack
 
If a regular decides to help a vamp, let them help. Do not get involved. When it's over, mention in semi-private that you feel them helping a vamp is hurting the chat and give pointers on help vamp signs
 
what'd I miss?
 
@SecondRikudo I think it's open to every room owner's judgement
 
user1596138
10:01 PM
This is impossible. I didn't attend any other meetings but I assume they were all like this lol
 
If someone feels like helping or is interested in the question, why not
 
@SterlingArcher you can talk to them while it's going on.
 
@copy Because then they'll come back
 
That too
 
With 5 more less interesting questions.
 
10:02 PM
@SecondRikudo If they get annoying, they get the same treatment as the others
 
Of course, if you say it in public you risk topic #2 popping up
 
user1596138
Are we discussing the welcome message? Are we discussing help vamps? Did we get to my specific situation yet?
 
It's only a problem if they spam their questions
 
@Jhawins We discussed welcome messages, we agreed that it's a good thing and @NickDugger now needs to submit a PR
 
@BadgerCat I respectfully disagree. It's also when they ask simple questions in rapid fire
 
10:03 PM
Here is the system working by the way - I can find at least 3-4 other such rooms. Always works.
 
user4330208
@BadgerCat define spam.
 
We're discussing help vamps and your specific situation now, yes.
 
user1596138
Let's discuss the help vamp situation. Right now. From this line down
 
user1596138
I think it would be best if an obvious help vamp is not helped in the room.
 
@SterlingArcher In rapid fire as in spamming?
 
user1596138
10:04 PM
As in a person who is hardly capable of reading the docs. The person I helped the other day for sure!
 
Is garlic and a stake through the heart an option?
 
@Jhawins the discussion is managed by @SecondRikudo this time around. Although I'm not sure what the topic is right now.
 
@BadgerCat yes, but I also mean that as a course over time
Maybe one or two questions a day every day for a month
Or even a week can get annoying
 
user1596138
I say if the same situation comes up again that an RO or regular hint back to this conversation or link to this meeting and say we agreed not to do that.
 
Simple little questions that google can sovle
I consider that help vamping
 
10:05 PM
Kick by your own judgement
Help by your own judgement
 
But what if they only post it once? Then their question gets lost.
 
I think that the problem with help vamping isn't about just the sanity of the regulars.
Because like most of you said, one can simple ignore any help vamp at any time
But I feel that it hurts the room as a whole
 
user1596138
If it is suggested and not disputed that the conversation be moved somewhere else I say that is the course of action.
 
Just like Stack Overflow aims to keep quality high, we as a room should try to keep discussiong level high
 
Earlier somebody mentioned once every 30 minutes is an ok timeframe to ask their question if it's a good question
 
user1596138
10:06 PM
But I also feel in a way that if this is needing to be said, does the user belong in the room at all?
 
user1596138
@SecondRikudo ^ I agree
 
I don't mind helping out users because that often leads to interesting and engaging discussions
But if someone asks their crappy angular/jquery/whatever question in the room and someone helps them, it feels to me that the level of discussion drops.
 
We should create a message for help vamps, to educate them on their condition. It would be similar to the welcome message, but more targeted.
 
And it will continue to drop because now the user has a reliable source of quick answers
 
user1596138
@Shmiddty And once the message is pulled that's the hint to stop helping this user?
 
user1596138
10:07 PM
Unless there are exceptional circumstances I'd say that works
 
Until they ask a proper question, at least
 
user1596138
That sounds like a plan to me.
 
Repeating what I said to that dude. Helping newbies is not our number one priority as a room. We're the JS room not the "learn how to JS room" or the "JS newbies help room". We're usually trying to be helpful. As soon as it comes at the expense of the room's discussion level I'm against it
 
We all know how .onclick works. If the topic of the room is .onclick tutorials, we have a problem
 
10:09 PM
@carb0nshel1 Please don't make me kick you a second time.
 
I wanna know how we add our comments for past topics we missed? Because apparently I can't voice them here anymore.
Which is stupid if you ask me.
 
@SecondRikudo see? that's where you're being a condescending bitch
 
user1596138
So in conclusion:
1. jhawins be accepting when told to stop helping an obvious help vampire
2. ROs and regulars don't be afraid to speak up when you think the room's overall quality is being degraded by a help vamp

Everyone agrees?
 
@rlemon We will revisit them after we finish all of the current ones
 
user1596138
@rlemon once we conclude this you can bring the topic back up ;)
 
10:09 PM
They shouldn't speak - they should just kick :D
 
what's the next topic?
 
I think we should do it like this:
 
user4330208
I actually appreciate the fact that I now know who kicked me. We should continue those "threats"
 
@rlemon 's comments on previous topics is welcome IMO
 
user1596138
Can I just ping ThiefMaster about that guy?
 
10:11 PM
He's busy
 
user1596138
This is disruptive.
 
@SterlingArcher yeah @rlemon until Second comes up with the next topic go right ahead
 
@carb0nshel1 don't you dare retaliate for disrupting a meeting we planned painstakingly.
 
@SterlingArcher I've already been told they were not welcome. It instantly put me in a bad mood.
 
user1596138
// done
 
10:11 PM
You guys made the lemon sour. Congrats.
 
user1596138
Everyone run this so we can proceed with the meeting
 
1. Users with low reputation or QA ratio should get a more targetted message
2. Users who are being obvious help vampires are to be kicked
3. If another regular is helping a help vampire, please inform them via a separate room
 
Yeah, I think we can agree to that.
Next topic please
 
user1596138
@BenjaminGruenbaum What if someone doesn't
 
@Jhawins I'm not hearing objections.
 
10:12 PM
@Jhawins then they should have said so in the last 15 minutes.
 
user1596138
Exactly.
 
Current topic: The mighty Lemon's 12 days to christmas
 
I wouldn't mind calling out vamp helpers
 
@SecondRikudo what's there to say about this?
 
I'm not sure what this topic is about, I added it as per @BenjaminGruenbaum's request in the comments on the topic list.
 
10:13 PM
@SecondRikudo What about it? It was fun.
 
Really awesome of @rlemon to do that again - that's the only reason I raised that topic and all I have to say about it. It was a cool idea last year and it was a cool idea this year.
 
user1596138
Everyone say thank you to @rlemon
 
Thank you @rlemon
 
ah
yeah thanks @rlemon
 
Cheers
Next topic
 
10:14 PM
@rlemon May I offer you fellatio?
 
@Shmiddty only if it's a random draw, with 12 chances to win
 
Let's revisit "Kicking policy" since it was requested by some.
 
hai!
 
@rlemon @Jhawins @NickDugger Here's your chance to voice your opinions.
 
@rlemon thank you for an awesome event as always. You're an invaluable asset to the room and my future lifting buddy!
 
10:15 PM
you are all welcome, i had fun
 
user1596138
Oh no I don't have anything to add? I'm solid.
 
1 hour ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
Alright, can we agree that: Announcing kicks is no longer mandatory and should probably be discouraged - opening a room with the user is not obligatory but is nice, a meta issue should be opened about prompting other room owners but not general users about kicks.
 
^ Thanks
 
12 days was awesome and I'm very glad I was able to help
 
I don't think singling out people for their bad behavior does anything but drives them to more bad behavior.
 
10:16 PM
I already made my comments about kicking. I don't agree we should stop the announcement until there is a mechanism in place for other RO's to know about it
just a "kicked" or some other keyword maybe
idk.
 
@rlemon it singles people out and puts a stigma on them.
 
accountability is a must I feel
 
What's the stigma problem?
I'm very much for accountability.
 
@rlemon less obvious
 
user1596138
@BenjaminGruenbaum Actually I have something to add.
 
10:17 PM
When you single out someone and announced you kick them you put the in a social role of a troublemaker.
 
You should only kick someone who is being disruptive
 
yes, and you don't have to say who
 
user1596138
Every time we have a spammy user, we kick the guy/gal and they come back to cause more trouble. We kick again and they come back to cause more trouble. I hate the cycle.
 
A minute's time out and a message on an offchannel chat accomplish much better results.
 
I know it would be quite obvious to anyone on the channel
 
10:17 PM
@Jhawins That's a good cycle
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum the kick announcement isn't for the benefit of the person being kicked.
 
Especially since after 3 kicks mods are called.
 
it is for the other RO's to know what is going on
 
@Jhawins exactly - and when instead of doing that I did not announce the kicks but talked to them in a private room for 2-3 messages it always works.
@rlemon yes, I'm arguing it's causing a lot more trouble than it's helping, mods are informed anyway so the potential for abuse isn't too big.
 
user1596138
I want to suggest that is there is a second kick, it be voiced and all regulars/ROs are to ignore the user, or at least stfu.
 
10:18 PM
take a recent example of a RO kicking another RO out of spite
 
I like knowing who kicked and I'm all for a chat feature - but it's distruptive atm.
 
jandy to kendall (kendall wasn't the person who should have been kicked mind you)
 
@rlemon wait what?
 
second kicked jandy, jandy thought it was kendall and kicked him
out of spite
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I kicked jAndy after a couple warnings regarding a derailed discussion
 
user1596138
10:19 PM
I think anyway at some point we have all got to agree that no ifs ands or buts we are going to collectively ignore the user.
 
That's just kick abuse
 
without accountability this could be going on without our knowledge
 
partly my fault for being a dick
 
@Jhawins I agree for the third (30 minute) kick but even then in ECMAScript or for the very least a deleted message or something.
 
10:19 PM
out of context nevermind
 
Kandell saw my warnings and he didn't, so when he continued he said "goodbye andy" or something
 
I'm going home
 
When Andy came back he kicked Kendall.
 
user1596138
How about that? Why not use a deleted message to announce kicks? Sounds ideal.
 
Room owners should not kick other room owners.
 
10:20 PM
Goodnight guys, kinda sorta good meeting. Despite carbonbutthole trolling
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I disagree.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I agree
 
heh
 
If all else failed, kicking other room owners is effective.
 
don't undermine another room owner
 
10:20 PM
If you want to kick another room owner, don't do that. If you truly disagree with something they said - flag for moderator attention.
 
I both agree and disagree!
 
I disagree
 
talk to them privately.
 
RO's are not above the rules.
 
@SecondRikudo didn't you just argue my exact point 30 minutes ago about undermining?
 
10:21 PM
kicking a RO shouldn't be necessary, but we have the tool
 
@SomeKittens yes, but ROs should not enforce the said laws in these cases.
 
39 secs ago, by rlemon
don't undermine another room owner
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I spoke to him (although not privately) at least 3 times about the topic he was discussing.
 
1. what if I think someone should be an RO?
2. what if I think a room owner shouldn't be a room owner anymore?
 
if they do something open a room and talk to them. it isn't hard.
 
10:21 PM
And I asked them to move it to a private room several times
 
It's not undermining, room owners are not special
 
If I'm not behaving, and it's disrupting your chat, kick me. I will get the point.
 
Kicking as a last resort, and I did say "Anyone continuing will be kicked"
 
user1596138
If you get to the point where you need to kick another room owner there should already have been a room opened to discuss your problem.
 
@SecondRikudo do so privately, and if he does not agree you can flag it for a moderator. If you don't think someone should be RO this is the place to bring it up.
 
10:21 PM
Other ROs are still "Anyone".
 
we have a position of (however limited) power in the room. we shouldn't be arguing and looking incoherent as a community
 
Also - I'm letting you know in advance that if ssube keeps coming to the room regularly I'm going to nominate him for RO next month or the month after, maybe.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Oh, I don't mind him being a RO like right now.
 
user1596138
On the topic of ROs..
 
@SecondRikudo Right, RO's aren't above the rules.
 
10:22 PM
But let's save that for another topic @BenjaminGruenbaum
 
Mods will be annoyed if we call them - it's our job to police the room.
 
oh, this is how it goes? we wait for the js room meeting?
 
user1596138
Waiting until we wrap up important business. Then I have something to say.
 
I will.
@FlorianMargaine yes, we decided in the first meeting that ROs are added and removed in meetings.
 
k
I nominate @ssube then
 
10:23 PM
@FlorianMargaine Later.
 
@rlemon can we agree that if we announce kicks we do that in deleted messages?
 
@rlemon I say that if you kick someone, you say it in the ES room.
Or that ^^
 
the first and only time I saw an RO kick and RO the other came back and kicked because he had the power. I don't think we should be doing this kind of hostile thing. can't we all just act like adults and discuss it? maybe respect each-other if someone privately asks you to knock off something?
@BenjaminGruenbaum that works for me
 
Is ES still frozen?
 
Fine with me
 
10:24 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I like that plan
 
Alright then
 
user1596138
Well maybe not.. I actually have to go drive now. I should've come to the meeting on time.
 
If you kick someone, announce and then delete the message.
 
@Jhawins what did you have to say?
 
user1596138
@SecondRikudo I say post a message, delete then edit it
 
10:25 PM
@SecondRikudo and do it after, so they have no way of seeing
 
user1596138
Hit up arrow after the delete.
 
user1596138
!!afk home time
 
Current topic: @Jhawins's thing to say
 
wat, really?
 
@Jhawins well?
He's AFK, I think we should just move on unless he responds @SecondRikudo
 
10:26 PM
Okay
Anyone wants to revisit a topic?
 
what were the topic list again?
link
 
@rlemon Description
 
room description
 
ohh yea it was the one not listed :P
 
If anyone wants to raise a topic not on the topic list, now's the time.
 
10:27 PM
what were the minutes on RO choosing
 
@rlemon We're getting to that
 
We can do that now, @FlorianMargaine raised ssube
 
Alright then
 
ok, but is this how we are doing it?
did we decide on that? once a month in this meeting?
 
Current topic: Room owner nominations/demotions
 
10:27 PM
I think so, that's what we agreed on in the first meeting
 
(i'm totally cool with that, just wondering)
ok, I forgot :/
 
I think that's a good plan.
 
Anyone wants to demote someone :D?
 
Makes sure that everyone's on the same page.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Possibly jandy?
2
 
10:28 PM
jAndy doesn't really contribute anymore
he pops in every so often and chats and leaves
 
Jokes aside.
 
Given his use of the room as a soapbox (when we've asked him not to) and abuse of RO powers.
 
jAndy is a legend though. He was in the room first - not sure if it matters
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That shouldn't matter.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Sounds to me like the Jewish argument.
 
10:29 PM
Mosho should be room owner
 
"We were here first"
 
@BadgerCat how active is he?
 
@BadgerCat He doesn't care XD
 
he isn't very active during my waking hours
 
@rlemon He's been more active lately.
 
10:29 PM
Let's finish on jAndy first please.
 
kk
 
All in favor of demoting jAndy, please star this message.
 
yeah let's remove jandy
 
how is this work? X votes ?
lets decide on numbers here
 
@BadgerCat mosho is fair game since he was RO and was not removed in a meeting anyone can add him - he just didn't ask for it. I talked to him about it I think maybe.
 
10:30 PM
@SecondRikudo Facebook style?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Okay, nice.
 
In favor of keeping jAndy, please star this message
 
Alright then, I think we have enough agreement.
 
@BadgerCat anything on jAndy?
 
how many stars to support a nomination, and howmany for a denomination to take effect. we have ~20 RO's so 10 each? can someone answer me! dammit guys
 
10:31 PM
@BadgerCat We work together after all and have beers together :P
 
I don't want to demote him.
 
can we figure this out?
 
@FlorianMargaine and @BenjaminGruenbaum appointed @ssube for RO
Anyone has objections?
 
user1596138
Dammit guys
 
Yes
Wait 3 months
 
user1596138
10:31 PM
I'm mobile lol I said afk
 
All in favor of promoting ssube, please star this message.
Also +1 for my vote, I can't vote myself
 
@BadgerCat I'll do it, I'm the one who suggested it.
unless @KendallFrey wants the honors.
 
no thank you
 
Oh, I meant I don't vote for.
 
Anyone against promoting ssube, please star this message.
 
10:33 PM
1 min ago, by rlemon
how many stars to support a nomination, and howmany for a denomination to take effect. we have ~20 RO's so 10 each? can someone answer me! dammit guys
 
@rlemon just the for and against thing
 
@rlemon I think a majority
 
@rlemon I just added an "against" one too.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yea that makes sense
 
@rlemon Typical quorum rules say 10% should be present and a majority approve
 
user1596138
10:33 PM
We have to do a benchmark star first. All voters star this message lol to find out how many of you there are
 
Suggestion: a limit of 2 pro/de per meeting?
 
OR - we can use miaou's new !!survey command
 
For that matter, Anyone against demoting jAndy star this
 
thankyou @SecondRikudo
it's only fair
 
@FlorianMargaine Indeed, we should totally have these meetings on Miaou.
 
10:34 PM
You already did that.
 
3 mins ago, by Florian Margaine
In favor of keeping jAndy, please star this message
 
@FlorianMargaine missed that
 
@rlemon yeah, seems like everybody misses my messages in this room
or yours
 
Wrong link, fail.
 
really, this meeting is disappointing
 
10:35 PM
Okay
 
I love jAndy, I'm just not sure he's done anything much with RO powers in the last year and given he caused trouble (when I was AFK) with it I don't see why we'd keep him as RO - the only reason would be not to offend him but I'm sure he can see beyond that.
 
@copy argument to report ssube promotion to wait 3 months hasn't even been discussed
 
So we have an agreement on promoting @ssube to Room Owner
 
ok, you're completely ignoring me
 
Let's discuss the timing.
@FlorianMargaine No, we aren't.
 
10:35 PM
@FlorianMargaine no one is ignoring you...
 
aaaand he's gone
 
We read everything you type we just didn't have anything clever to say in response here.
 
@FlorianMargaine Well, if anybody would have agreed with me, they could have stared the other message
 
@copy Why do you think we should wait 3 months?
 
Because I've not seen that guy a lot and he doesn't know what generators are
 
10:36 PM
@copy neither does @SecondRikudo but he has a JS gold badge
:D
 
@copy I think lack of knowledge has little to do with RO status
 
@copy I didn't (really) know what generators were up until 2 weeks ago.
 
he's been active pretty recently. but I think that has only been the last month or two
 
which has been enough for most ROs here
 
and he doesn't steer conversation in the wrong directions that i've seen
 
10:37 PM
Moderators aren't answerable to their professional knowledge, they're answerable to how well people like them and how well we trust them.
 
user1596138
So guys. I think I've been a good boy for awhile. Can you make me RO again so I can kick-mute spree you all server and protect the room?
 
Which is why I initially said I'm nominating him next month. I vote in favor for now if people trust him enough.
 
I'll nominate Jhawins for next month
 
@Jhawins we'll discuss you after we're done with @ssube k?
 
@Jhawins is this what you wanted to say?
 
10:38 PM
Hi, I'm here, and I'm catching up at the same time.
 
5 mins ago, by Kendall Frey
Suggestion: a limit of 2 pro/de per meeting?
if this is a bad idea, hit me
 
@KendallFrey Why?
 
then it's like survivor, makes it more intense. /s
 
@KendallFrey we never reached the limit before - don't see why we'd need a rule.
 
user1596138
Yeah but I was gonna think of clever-er things to say
 
10:39 PM
@SecondRikudo keep it a bit more stable
nominate ALL the people no
 
@KendallFrey seeing as these meetings aren't really frequent
 
ok, hits accepted
 
I don't think we should enforce that rule
Okay, so what's the verdict on @ssube?
 
@Jhawins well we can vote on it, but I think it's better to wait for a month.
 
user1596138
But also on that note - if you don't, eh it really isn't a big deal. I probably won't have the need to even use RO powers, I hardly ever think "gee I wish I could kick that guy" or try to move messages. So don't think I'm putting you all on the spot and deciding if you like me or something, I just like italics and the occasional binning of NSFW smutt without having to wait ;P
 
10:41 PM
@SecondRikudo we can add him as RO.
 
Alrighty then.
@Jhawins These meetings are the perfect time to bring these things up, so don't be afraid of putting us all on the spot.
 
user1596138
@BenjaminGruenbaum Works for me.
 
@Jhawins @KendallFrey said he'll nominate you next month - it's probably better. Fwiw I'd be fine with it but I'm sure there are others who'd like to see your act cleaned up more.
 
I'm curious what the traits and attributes of a good room owner are.
 
You know who those people are.
 
10:42 PM
as for ssube, I haven't seen anything to make me thing he would be a bad RO. but then again, I've also not seem him as much as other people. I don't know how helpful he is to newcomers because i've never payed attention, but if he was out of line I think I would remember it. so I'm ok with it. Now, should we have some sort of 'grace' period of sorts? like we revisit every new RO the following month?
 
user1596138
@SecondRikudo Eh I have no quarrels with the room to bring up this month
 
not a dick and regular
 
@rlemon sure, we can do that.
 
Alright then, let's discuss @Jhawins's nominattion next time then?
 
user1596138
@BenjaminGruenbaum Then those users should step up and say something to me I think. Afaik I've been pretty straight. I got heated with @SecondRikudo over the help vamp but eh, he was right in the end and we all agreed to wait for the meeting.
 
10:44 PM
@rlemon I tend to agree. If something catastrophic happens, we can always insta revoke until matters are cleared.
 
user1596138
Just saying right now, if someone doesn't like the way I acted in the last few weeks or in the future please bring it to my attention. I think I can usually tell when I'm pushing it but sometimes it's hard to see your own problems.
 
user1596138
^ This is meant to be friendly
 
Alright
Anyone has any other nominations/demotions they'd like to bring up?
Or things about the process itself?
 
I'll wait next month for Luggage
 
user1596138
!!afk driving will look over things later
 
10:46 PM
Okay then.
 
Luggage has also been good, yeah. I think so.
Ok, anything else @SecondRikudo ?
 
Any other topics anyone would like to bring up?
 
@phenomnomnominal ^
incase you're still transcript surfing
 
Still catching up, agree with everything so far
 
Thanks for hosting @SecondRikudo , it was a heated and productive meeting - don't forget to post a summary and pick a host randomly for next month (aka: not me, or anyone who hosted already)
 
10:48 PM
Alright then, meeting is adjourned. Thank you all of coming (although some of you were late. You guys suck). @NickDugger needs to submit a PR for a targeted welcome message. @BenjaminGruenbaum needs to submit a meta post regarding notifying other room owners that someone was kicked.
 
OK, lets all get drunk on hangouts now.
 
@rlemon Post the link on main
 
Can I ask that someone check the NZ time of the next scheduled meeting so it's not 9am on a Saturday morning for me? I realise it's not easy to get it right for everyone, but ya know. I'd like to catch the occasional one.
 
@SecondRikudo We need a moderator for next month
 
@KendallFrey That's a good idea.
I'll try to get ThiefMaster or BoltClock next time.
9 messages moved to bin
@KendallFrey Let's see.
 
10:58 PM
0
Q: Notify room owners when a user is kicked

Benjamin GruenbaumCurrently when a user is kicked from the chatroom room owners other than the one who kicked the user do not get notified of the kick. This is problematic since it leaves us with two options: Notify the room when the user is kicked with a message. We have initially started doing that but it tur...

 
11:40 PM
@SecondRikudo Sorry I wasn't available
 
@Zirak It's OK
We're on hangouts now
 
Linkies?
Thanks
 
I can't see deleted things. can you post the link again?
...
slower
once more with feeling
v^v^v^v^v^v^v^
Fine, I'll find other hooligans to drink with
 

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