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4:00 PM
But you can get strong test-time guarantees, right?
 
@FredOverflow derp
 
for me (I mostly do TDD) it would be hard to get into serious trouble because of a missing break: the unit test for the corresponding case(s) is very likely to fail, and if you write the test first, you'll just be told immediately. But then again the same is (even more) true if you treat warnings as errors and you have a good enough compiler
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel sigh
 
I'd rather have a language that doesn't do the wrong thing by default
 
4:02 PM
sure
 
having less tests means less code to maintain, too
 
It's ironic that of all the Western democracies, the UK is becoming the most Orwellian.
 
also some things are neigh impossible to prove with tests
We're actually thinking about using LH in potato :S
and possibly in further game projects
 
I don't really understand the de-syncing between Windows and the phone's SD card
 
@BartekBanachewicz it also means refactoring mistakes are more likely to go unnoticed
 
4:04 PM
@EtiennedeMartel I'm shocked
 
I need to move/delete a file there to force a refresh
and for some reason the files get cached (?)
opening a .txt file doesn't get me the proper results even after a forced refresh
 
@AndyProwl refactoring strongly typed code is typically much easier IMHO
that seems to be the community opinion
 
If your tests are a maintenance burden then you're not very good at maintenance
 
Refactoring some code. Thank dog it's #haskell
 
@EtiennedeMartel I don't think they are the most Orwellian, I think that title is still held by the US. But they're certainly going that way.
 
4:05 PM
i'm refactoring haskell for the first time and it... worked? what is this black magic. jle` on freenode just won all of my internet points.
 
@BartekBanachewicz maybe, I don't have enough experience with other languages than C++, apart some experience with C#, but I guess it's something else that you're talking about (e.g. Haskell)
 
Lounge<Haskell>
 
@AndyProwl maybe there's more to it than strong static typing admittedly
 
Privacy aside, if you ban encryption, you suddenly can't do any online payments
 
@CatPlusPlus was mentioned in the article
 
4:07 PM
Concatenative languages are easier to refactor than Haskell
 
@CatPlusPlus Or just plain any secure website browsing, for any purpose.
 
@CatPlusPlus like Z?
 
@EtiennedeMartel I hate that adjective. Pretty sure Orwell would too.
 
ah Forth
> Most concatenative languages are dynamically typed
 
@Puppy Like terrorism!
 
4:08 PM
Concatenative what
 
@CatPlusPlus So terrorists can't order bomb parts!
 
A concatenative programming language is a point-free computer programming language in which all expressions denote functions and the juxtaposition of expressions denotes function composition. Concatenative programming replaces function application, which is common in other programming styles, with function composition as the default way to build subroutines. Functions and procedures written in concatenative style are not value level, i.e. they typically don't represent the data structures they operate on with explicit names or identifiers; instead they are function level - a function is defined...
more or less sounds like implicit >>=
 
As long as your stack effects line up, refactoring is mostly just cut-paste of code
You can literally take any block of code and replace it with a word that contains that block
 
@CatPlusPlus related, might interest you (yes that's Z)
 
(balancing of [] and stuff aside)
 
4:10 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's pretty ridiculous to inconvenience 60 million people because three of them murdered seventeen others.
there's many more murders than that every year in the UK.
 
> However, in Z. It's easy. You go to the starting column, identified by the first non-whitespace character. Then you go up and down a line and do the same thing until the starting column is not equal to or greater than this one. Done. You have the whole z-expression. You want to move it? Easy, you cut it out and paste it, and add or remove spaces according to the new offset
@рытфолд would like it
> Worried about indentation styles? There are non in Z. It's impossible to have indentation styles. There is only one indentation.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's not concatenative also meh
 
Yes, @OhadM, I can give you an example. But no, since you asked within 1 minute of me posting the answer (which linked the documentation) and again withing seconds of me commenting the explanation, I'm going to allow you some time to understand the documentation. — sehe 7 secs ago
So much entitledness in that question it's palpable
 
conCATenative
get it?
 
is there a word other than "transformation" which generalizes "translation" and "rotation"?
 
4:12 PM
transformation
 
@AndyProwl "math"
 
@AndyProwl why do you need another word?
 
> (Note: there are no parentheses in Z. Zero.)
 
geometric transformation
 
@SamDeHaan Geometry in particular
 
4:13 PM
@AndyProwl all but scaling
 
No instead, there's mandatory columnation
 
@BartekBanachewicz long story short, that name's taken for something else (or rather, a very similar name)
ah but wait I could move those things to a math package
 
...
 
and then cross-package naming conflicts would be less problematic
 
@Jefffrey butt scaling
 
4:14 PM
I'm a super terrible OOP programmer
 
s/OOP //
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit elementary_transformation is what I have now, but the word "transformation" somehow conflicts with transform, which is another entity that exists in the same package
 
@AndyProwl what's the other thing?
 
@AndyProwl transformation2
 
@BartekBanachewicz In that case I'm just terrible.
 
4:15 PM
@Jefffrey nah, you're the precious little special snowflake
 
aww
 
Also I'm fixing sample3
 
nice
 
@Jefffrey you are not at peace with the universe
 
unless you are simply removing sprites
 
4:15 PM
Also someone should finish the goddamn arkanoid
because I failed at math
 
but I guess that if I move elementary_transformation to a different package, the ambiguity will become less severe
 
@AlexM. are you?
 
yes
 
@Puppy Twas a joke.
 
@AlexM. how did you do it?
 
4:16 PM
the universe and I are bros
real Gs
@Jefffrey it's easy
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz nice
 
oh look what I found
a +~= b = do
    b' <- b
    a += b'
:D
 
you need to concentrate less on what you know
and more on what you can do
 
1) be annoying
2) lists
 
then you're not terrible anymore
you may output terrible products
but you're not terrible
 
4:17 PM
I can't do shit because what I know tells me not to do thing X, Y, Z, ...
 
yes, well
what you know doesn't output anything
what does what you know know
 
wait
lemme... wat
 
     -- this gets the tangent of the line crossing
     -- chosen corner and ball position
     getD va vb = (fst vb - fst va) / (snd vb - snd va)
 
your knowledge dies with you, jefffrey
your work is eternal
 
the fucking hell I meant when writing that
 
4:19 PM
(or until someone destroys it)
 
@EtiennedeMartel Let's nuke Birmingham!
 
@AlexM. let's fucking hope not
> getD
damn you haskell programmers
 
@Jefffrey literate programming
 
that reminds me that literate haskell is broken (it doesn't do what I want it to do) on github
 
4:20 PM
illiterate is more like it. i can't read a thing.
 
Hello.
 
Hallo
I think I need to refactor the whole project.
Which is just another way of saying "throwing it away and start again".
 
Don't Zoidberg projects
 
> Other concatenative languages are Cat, Enchilada, Factor, Onyx, ...
lol stupid markdown
 
4:24 PM
Do you know what's not a good label for a link
 
"click here"
 
punctuation makes for a perfect link label
so that your victim will claim that you didn't add the link to the source, and you can say "fuck you, yes, I did, it's over there" and be proud of yourself, or something
 
I still have nausea from all the Java programming
or maybe because I haven't sent faxes in over 3 days now
 
how would you name a class that holds two 3d vectors (axis and center), and has a method that given an angle returns a matrix representing a rotation by that angle around that axis passing through that center? I feel rotation is inappropriate, because that rather describes the resulting matrix. parametric_rotation? rotation_generator?
 
4:27 PM
@Jefffrey No. No, it's not.
 
@JerryCoffin I know. In my case, it does.
 
@thecoshman genious
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I know you were. But they aren't
 
@JerryCoffin Well if your requirements include "never finish this"
 
not that I was going to vote Conservative anyway but now they've definitely lost my vote.
 
4:28 PM
@AndyProwl Rotato
 
rotator?
 
I spelled it correctly
 
they're just fearmongering technophobes.
 
@CatPlusPlus Fair enough.
 
@CatPlusPlus seriously? I don't know that word
 
4:28 PM
@AndyProwl I wouldn't, because that's a function and not a class.
 
Come on
 
wiki: rotato
 
Rotating potato
Rotato
 
...
 
@Puppy you wouldn't what? name it rotation?
@CatPlusPlus ah, right
 
4:29 PM
@AndyProwl I wouldn't create this class in the first place.
 
@CatPlusPlus it's time to stop making jokes, buddy, ok?
it's time to retire
 
yes let's not vote for a political party solely on the basis of a promise to instigate an Act of parliament on a single issue that cannot technically be introduced anyway, even if politicians ever did what they said they'd do in the run up to an election
that's a mature way to do democracy
 
@Puppy it holds the axis and the center as part of its state. All the (member) function gets is an angle.
 
Yeh a function is probably a better idea
 
oh fucking hell
 
4:30 PM
Unless you really need that state then just call it a factory and be done
 
rotatio
 
I forgot I made 2d depend on 3d
time to go home
 
I need state, can't have a function
 
Make it pretend to be a function
 
use a global
or a singleton
 
4:31 PM
in what's commonly called a functor
 
@AndyProwl This still sounds more like a function, just with captures instead. Lambda
 
do I complain too much?
 
will you complain if I say yes
 
Rambda
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no
 
4:32 PM
then no
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl Did you learn nothing from Java? Gotta be a rotation_factory!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit hey! that's not the answer I expected
 
@Xeo that's what it is in fact, I thought of rotation_generator
but it somehow sucks
 
@Jefffrey quit your complaining
 
I'd still go with rotato
 
4:33 PM
you complain too much
 
laammbbddaa
 
yay
 
@AndyProwl Most people use a name that mentions "quaternion". I'd call it quaternion::quaternion(args)
 
Quotato?
 
4:34 PM
Maybe I should rethink my solving algorithm.
Returning row major and column major matrixes seems like a pain in the ass indeed.
 
Returning minor matrices is illegal
 
@Puppy it's something I have to pass around and eventually gets stored in a class member. I'd have to encapsulate it in an std::function, and at that point the class holding that function could accept any callable object that takes a double and returns a matrix. I want it to be a rotation only
 
thanks
 
Matrii
 
nah, the algorithm is fine
 
4:35 PM
matrato
 
@AndyProwl Why the center :S
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes the axis is a 3d vector. I need to rotate points around a center through which that axis passes.
I return a 4x4 matrix
@JerryCoffin considering that
@JerryCoffin ah, no wait
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes i missed that. could you try writing it slower?
 
a quaternion encodes a specific rotation
ah, no nothing disregard that
 
@AndyProwl The center is the origin. Anything else can be achieved by composing with translations.
 
4:38 PM
^ this
 
Today my students implemented Tetris in C. The average number of global variables used was about 5.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 4x4 matrices can encode rotations around an arbitrary point. That's the abstraction I need.
 
I love writing actual stuff instead of complaining about micro-architecture decisions.
 
(btw this does not change my naming problem)
 
@AndyProwl Yes, by composing a translation with a rotation.
 
4:39 PM
Yes
 
@AndyProwl Not like that you don't
 
@FredOverflow If you've been teaching them for more than a week, now would be a good time to go get drunk (and if anybody asks, disclaim any knowledge of any programming class).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can compose an arbitrary amount of translations and rotations and end up with a simple 4x4 matrix, right?
 
Don't call that a rotation.
 
@FredOverflow right
 
4:39 PM
You just multiply them
 
@JerryCoffin There is nothing wrong with using 5 global variables inside a file with 150-200 lines. Those global variables would turn into data members if you used OOP.
 
it's a revolution
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes agreed, probably bad name
 
@FredOverflow Probably I'm just a drunk, and consider anything a good reason to drink... :-)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit sounds good
(provided it's the technical name, I don't know)
 
4:42 PM
@FredOverflow Maybe you know this. Can you/will you help me?
 
so what I have is a revolution_generator?
 
/**
 * Returns a transformation matrix representing a revolution of an object around
 * the encapsulated axis, relative to the encapsulated centre, by the given number
 * of degrees.
 */
Matrix4x4 OrientedOffset::revolutionTransformation(const double degrees);
class name is shit
 
I know, should have been called OffroadMatrix
 
ah, I fucked up
 
revolution
is a good name
 
4:42 PM
@Jefffrey static method or normal?
 
got it the wrong way around and this therefore doesn't help you at all
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yes, that's the abstraction I need
 
Also, do you want List, or something more generic? For reading or writing?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit That sounds wrong too. A revolution would be a 2π rotation, no?
 
4:43 PM
@FredOverflow the one accepting is static, the one returning is non-static
 
> While revolution is often used as a synonym for rotation, in many fields, particularly astronomy and related fields, revolution, often referred to as orbital revolution for clarity, is used when one body moves around another while rotation is used to mean the movement around an axis.
I was going for that
 
@FredOverflow for using get and have a O(1) random access
 
I mean, you're not wrong though
 
Why are you using List<List<T>> in signatures anyway
 
4:43 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes, but it's one complete orbit.
That's an identity transformation.
 
but the comment to the code you posted describes the abstraction I'm building
 
@CatPlusPlus not to depend on implementation (actual container class)
 
public static <T> void accepting(List<List<T>>);
public <T> List<List<T>> returning();
 
If that's your matrix then make it a goddamn matrix (also two-dim array will probably be better but eh)
 
1 min ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
ah, I fucked up
@AndyProwl i'm clever
 
4:44 PM
@Jefffrey List does not guarantee O(1) random access. But there probably is no better interface in Java.
 
@CatPlusPlus the problem remains
 
@Jefffrey Whatever for
@Jefffrey What problem
 
@FredOverflow The docs recommend to check with instanceof java.util.RandomAccess
 
@CatPlusPlus I have a matrix class already (actually, Eigen does)
 
@Jefffrey Never heard of that before.
 
4:45 PM
I don't think I'd bundle axis and offset together unless this is part of a larger class that more fundamentally represents an object of some kind. Those two things don't really belong together as a duo.
 
@CatPlusPlus of passing around generic containers of containers
 
Jefffrey apparently doesn't
 
@FredOverflow You seem to be leaking over from "Java Sucks" again.
 
Position is one thing and orientation is another
 
@FredOverflow Represent matrices as flat lists?
 
4:45 PM
@JerryCoffin Wanna take it outside?
 
I can't think of any particularly intuitive way to wrap them into a single thing
 
@CatPlusPlus for the professor to be happy
 
Keep the types always List<List<>> and never use anything concrete
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If it were up to me, I would write a dedicated Matrix class for that, but whatever, not my problem.
 
she is a "don't depend on implementation ever" kind of gal
 
4:46 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit rotation around an axis/center by a certain angle is quite a meaningful operation. I don't want to specify the axis and the center every time
 
@CatPlusPlus Can't have List<List<>>
 
@Jefffrey Make a Matrix interface and a MatrixImpl implementation.
 
@AndyProwl I didn't say it was not a meaningful operation. I said ... well, scroll up to see what I said.
 
@Jefffrey Uh
 
@FredOverflow I did, but the problem still stands, because I need to pass this container of container to Matrix anyway
 
4:47 PM
@CatPlusPlus List<List<T>> is stupid (and doesn't work). List is not covariant.
@Jefffrey Use a flat list instead of a list of lists.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's loss of information
 
public static <T> void accepting(List<? extends List<? extends T>>);   // ...or something :)
 
Because there's less information
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because the matrix doesn't know where a new row begins or ends
 
4:48 PM
lolwut
 
Is this thing jagged?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't want to bundle those two pieces of information together with anything else. I think they form a meaningful abstraction. I just need a name that sounds better than rotation/revolution_factory or rotation/revolution_generator, assuming any exists
 
@AndyProwl MatrixManager
 
@AndyProwl It seems you are merely repeating yourself and not taking on board any advice. So...
 
@AndyProwl revolver.
 
4:48 PM
I have to pass around an actual ArrayList<ArrayList<T>>
 
My boss would probably take that.
 
It doesn't make sense for me to return ArrayList<T>
 
He made a class named chunk_norris a while back.
 
No wait, don't call it MatrixManager, call it KeanuReeves!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Wasn't your advice to make it "part of a larger class that more fundamentally represents an object of some kind"?
 
4:49 PM
because the algorithm is parallelized so that each inner ArrayList<T> is computed by a different task
 
Usually when you need to ask fifteen people over and over again for a good name for a type and function, it's worth considering whether there is a good reason it's so difficult.
@AndyProwl Congratulations on quoting me.
 
@Jefffrey So you're adding genericity where there is none?
 
just make it Auto
 
@AndyProwl colt45
 
4:50 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Or just hit F5 repeatedly.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes no, that's the implementation of the solver algorithm I'm describing. But the solver algorithm implements a generic interface that should return a generic container instead of ArrayList.
 
"ThreadedLolcatChannel"; nice
 
So you are the one writing the algorithm?
 
yup
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit it seems to me you wanted to point out that there's something I'm missing about your advice
 
4:51 PM
Parallelise it on stretches of a flat list?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit RemoteRobotStream
 
@AndyProwl Its implementation, apparently. Since at least check you were all "no, I have to do it my way, despite what you're all saying. Just tell me a good name for my broken design"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes And then return a flat list from the algorithm?
 
Yes.
Or some matrix abstraction around it if you really want.
 
4:52 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit What I don't understand is why is it broken, but even assuming I'd drop the center and only keep the axis, the problem remains
 
wait
 
how do I name that thing?
 
List<List<T>> as a representation is not a particularly good idea.
 
you are a genius
 
2 mins ago, by FredOverflow
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Or just hit F5 repeatedly.
 
4:53 PM
well
kind of
 
@FredOverflow lol
 
because now it's the interface that doesn't make sense
 
(brb)
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Finally You have followed my advise about profile avatar.. It was a few months ago I doubt you remember this chat but anyway :P
 
but if I return a matrix from the interface and implement the matrix as a flat list, then I'll be ok
 
4:54 PM
@ProblemSolver Hmmm?
So is this the official policy about such answers? — Lightness Races in Orbit 19 secs ago
lulz
me so funny
 
so yeah, thanks @R.MartinhoFernandes
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure it does ideone.com/OAgZKZ
 
back
 
@AndyProwl I'll repeat: your 4x4 matrix is a quaternion. People who work in graphics (and know what they're doing) are quite accustomed to what a quaternion is and how it's normally used. So what you're asking about is just constructing quaternions.
 
@JerryCoffin Yes, but I have to generate the quaternion given a single value (the angle). How do I name the thing that given a single value returns a quaternion? (or a 4x4 matrix, or anything equivalent)
 
4:57 PM
@AndyProwl Quaternion::Quaternion(float rotation_angle);
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Hmm? Don't get your "hmm" I just was hoping you would remember that case :P
 
@crashmstr I'm wondering what the indian rocket scientists use :( ... — πάντα ῥεῖ 2 hours ago
@ProblemSolver I don't
 
@CatPlusPlus That's not what he has.
 
Quaternion::fromAngle(double angle)
 
What does he have
 
4:58 PM
@JerryCoffin You can't actually construct one from a single angle. You also need an axis at least. That however seems to be merely some state, which he could capture in a lambda.
 
@milleniumbug not precise enough
you need eulerAngle
 
14
A: Why Does the New C++ Standard use "ISO/IEC 14882:2015"?

Columbo<joke> Obviously the postfix-increment finally showed its side-effect </joke> I suppose the person responsible for publishing this article must have made a typo, as every other source mentioning it uses ISO/IEC 14882:2014, and so does the text that follows the title: ISO/IEC 14882:2014 spec...

> Obviously the postfix-increment finally showed its side-effect
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Now I do.
 
FWIW, Unity has Quaternion.Euler(euler angles here) //provides a quaternion and Quaternion.eulerAngles //euler angles from this quaternion
 
4:59 PM
List<List<Integer>> x = Ideone.<Integer>make(); -.-
 

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