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4:42 AM
@PeterVaro none xP just... protocol is always tricky and... envy of people having so much nice friends....
 
5:00 AM
Morning @Kamiccolo
 
Morning @DrorK. :} still can't get out of the bed...
 
5:49 AM
@PeterVaro former .alac?
 
 
2 hours later…
7:30 AM
@PeterVaro Remember the thing I've decided to keep quiet about? ... I just got a phone call from said party, he says he sides with me in the dispute :)
So I guess mission accomplished even without getting dirty.
 
8:24 AM
helloc all;
@DrorK. nicely played ;)
@Kamiccolo yepp.. but I prefer FLAC, m4a is only good for iPod, iPhone, iPad and AppleTV -- and to play music in iTunes
 
hi
I bought more cables :3
 
9:13 AM
@PeterVaro btw, back to an old topic, this watch seams niceish: hackaday.com/2014/10/17/…
 
@Kamiccolo The Fuc*ingWatch? :D
> 32-bit ARM Cortex-M3 SiLabs Giant Gecko which contains 128KB of RAM and 1MB of Flash. In the above picture you’ll notice a 1.28″ 128×128 pixels Sharp Memory LCD but the main board also contains a micro-USB connector for battery charging and connectivity, a micro-SD card slot, a buzzer and a vibration motor
M3 looks like a bit of overkill for a watch TBH
I'd expect M0+
but I think it's great that stuff like this starts to appear
it's amazing.
 
9:35 AM
@BartekBanachewicz wrist heater included :}
 
@Kamiccolo hehe
BTW
Do LCDs typically have their own shift registers builtin?
 
@Kamiccolo that's pretty nice actually -- the inside not the outside ;)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not really sure, but as far as I saw --- nope. Need to solder it on Your own.
 
I wonder why did not "hire" at least one designer, who could have designed the shell of the watch
but still, it looks pretty nice.
 
@Kamiccolo I'll have to buy a few of those
 
9:48 AM
@PeterVaro maybe because some people like the design as it is? xP
 
@Kamiccolo umm.. and you know such a guy? ;)
 
@PeterVaro I can't say I know myself pretty well... but yeah, kind of... xD
 
@Kamiccolo maybe we never agree on this topic, but look at this beauty:
this is a watch I want, and I'd like to wear -- even it is just as dumb as a nail compared to the one you linked
 
@PeterVaro I'm not a designer nor a businessman, neither do CERN guys :} so... Hammer (or nail) is good enough...
 
I suppose 3D printing also has its limits
 
9:56 AM
@PeterVaro personally, this one highly reassembles to iPhone (marketing trick again?), so, minus kudos points for designers xD
 
I wouldn't make it too advanced if it ment sacrificing ease of manufacturing for the looks
 
@BartekBanachewicz hobbyist one --- Yeah. But still far from reaching limits of those more precise and expensive printers...
 
@Kamiccolo it was first appeared as a clock not as a watch: tweaktown.com/news/23885/…
and it has nothing to do with the iPhone => sure it is a box, and uses black and metallic colors
:)
 
yeah, but I mean this thing was supposed to be easy to produce for anyone, right?
 
@PeterVaro aye, saw this one plenty of time ago... :} and it's not for me to judge their marketing xP It's just... personal first impression :}
@BartekBanachewicz and yeah... 850$ :}
 
10:00 AM
what
ah, for the printer? :P
 
@Ravitheja, sorry, but You need at least 20 reputation to participate on any of StackOverflow chats... :(
@BartekBanachewicz naaah... for that watch @PeterVaro posted :}
 
I didn't see the price in the article?
 
10:16 AM
?
 
it is fudging expensive :(
 
ah, that's some other watch
 
(and tbh it does not worth that amount of money)
 
@Kamiccolo remember I have Peter muted
 
@BartekBanachewicz aaah... You two... I can't remember things I don't know xD
@PeterVaro ikr :/
 
10:18 AM
@Kamiccolo I've concluded talking to him is a complete waste of time, and most of the things he writes there aren't worth my attention
most importantly, he's often incorrect, but I'm not going to correct him every time he does that, so instead I simply answer people's problems and question and don't give a damn about what he writes in parallel
unfortunately you can't downvote in chat :)
 
10:45 AM
helloc @Inisheer;
long time no see here -- what's happened?
helloc @marcioAlmada;
 
11:35 AM
helloc @all
 
11:47 AM
hello
 
1:07 PM
@Kamiccolo I suppose it's always possible to find an example where they fail
it's also possible to find a lot of examples where they outperform production hand-written assembly
 
@BartekBanachewicz yup, and this was only one separated example... :/
 
1:19 PM
@Kamiccolo those performance maniacs are weird
 
user3079266
1:49 PM
helloc all;
 
user3079266
just got home from univ =) finally selected my coursework (we do coursework in the first year in our university)
 
I'm thinking about putting Lua on my MCU
 
user3079266
@BartekBanachewicz what's MCU?
 
@Mints97 microcontroller unit
 
user3079266
1:57 PM
@BartekBanachewicz oh, that's cool. You're going to install a Lua interpreter on it?
 
@Mints97 I was thinking about bundling it with the code I build and writing the real logic in Lua.
You don't really "install" things on such small things :)
it's freestanding (without an OS)
 
user3079266
@BartekBanachewicz well, I meant create a Lua interpreter/compiler for it =)
 
@Mints97 I wouldn't really need to write it from scratch. Official Lua interpreter is written in C
it's pretty portable.
 
user3079266
@BartekBanachewicz oh, yeah, that's good
 
@Mints97 not really, but in this case it might help
I want to pick either C++ or Lua for my further development
I've been hacking around in C but it's simply too impractical for anything more complicated than a blinking LED
 
2:21 PM
Err, -Wno-maybe-uninitialized has bitten me...
I've been using it for the case of when initialization happens within a conditional statement, which is fine
But it would be applied for the case where the usage of the uninitialized is conditional, which I didn't expect
I can't seem to find others complaining about its behavior, so I guess I'm within the minority group
 
@BartekBanachewicz btw, have You checked eLua?
It might be already ported. Supported devices list isn't that small as I recall...
 
@Kamiccolo yep, but it seems weird
@Kamiccolo my device is on their list
@DrorK. meh. Should be a function
 
What should be a function?
 
int x;
if (a) { x = 5; } else { x = 4; }

// move

int initialize_x(bool a) { if (a) { return 5; } else { return 4; } }

int x = initialize_x(a);
@DrorK. ^ no warnings.
 
@BartekBanachewicz The case you described wouldn't show a warning here
(the if (a)... one)
 
2:35 PM
@DrorK. no?
 
Nope, gcc 4.8.3
 
Why? Either x is 5 or 4, there's no case of it being uninitialized here?
 
I avoid all variables that have type name;
@DrorK. I always try to write = after.
it's best to combine definition and initialization
 
Actually I find redundant initializers to be the source of my problems
 
2:42 PM
don't make them redundant then
 
But if the compiler fails to distinguish, than there's no much choice
 
make them initialize to something meaningful
 
I didn't mean that the value is meaningless, but actually the assignment is
 
Think of the case with pointers, people who use: int *p = NULL; ... will never get a warning of using an uninitialized 'p'
 
2:45 PM
@DrorK. And why should they get that warning? NULL is a perfectly valid value for p.
Pointers have implicit nullability
Every time you get a raw pointer, you should expect it to be null.
 
That's the problem, the value is valid by itself, but as an initializer- most of the time it's meaningless
 
then initialize with meaningful value?
I don't see what the problem is.
 
Which means, that in the event of you actually trying to use an uninitialized pointer, you won't get a warning for it
 
If you don't have anything to put in the variable, don't introduce it
@DrorK. Why would you ever want to create a pointer and not assign anything to it at once then?
Either it's empty (NULL) or has a valid object inside.
Everything else is simply invalid.
 
That's not deliberate, it's a common mistake
 
2:47 PM
mistake of what
 
Of using an object uninitialized
(the NULL value, doesn't solve the mistake, it only masks the warning)
 
@DrorK. no, the NULL value will crash out any code trying to use it
at least well-behaved code.
 
It doesn't have to crash, it could produce other side-effects
But without the NULL, you'll get a perfectly readable warning
 
then it's simply bad in my dictionary
if the code cannot act reasonably on a NULL value and fails silently it's plainly bad
It should be either restricted as a check inside or on the interface
 
Again, you're missing the point
 
2:50 PM
because otherwise I treat raw pointer parameters as able to accept NULL
 
The NULL initializer serves no purpose, but masking an obvious warning to a common problem
 
no, you're missing the point
but we're going to hit the wall of "C is terrible outdated language unable to express anything but a potato" I suppose.
I'd still wrap the pointers in something if I wanted to forbid NULLs
one element struct should be as big as the pointer itself, no?
That should serve as a perfect strong type alias.
 
Let me try to demonstrate it with a very simplistic case, I hope you'd play along:
int *pi = NULL;
if ((pi = malloc(sizeof *pi)) == NULL) return 1;
*pi = 1;
This example is straight forward?
 
it's C, nothing is straightforward in C.
I'm starting to see it.
there's no reasonable way to solve problems, so you create rube goldberg style solutions based on compiler warnings and hacks to catch the most common mistakes
this can't possibly work well ever.
unless you employ 3rd party analysis tools like the one I've posted, but you're not really writing C at this point.
you're writing annotations in a tailored DSL which is checked at a separate stage
JS people propose the same and I think this model is inherently flawed.
 
Well, that's a toll one has to pay while using such languages
 
2:58 PM
solution: don't use them
 
If one doesn't have to use such languages --> he would pick a language that is suited for his needs
 
thank god you can often find an alternative nowadays
People are finally realizing that we can do better than C.
 
I think the problem is that we have too many alternatives
 
C++ is an alternative for a lot of C uses nowadays
Conceptually Rust can be even better, but it needs wider adoption.
@DrorK. ironically, pretty much every one of them is better.
 
Well, obviously 'better' varies, depends on ones purposes/requirements/needs
You just mentioned a concern of adoption
Others have a concern of legacy, maturity, etc etc... so what's better for one isn't necessary better for the other
 
3:05 PM
@DrorK. I mentioned a concern of being able to write good code.
 
(brb)
 
Where by good I mean code with basic functionality guaranteed statically by the compiler
 
 
1 hour later…
Qix
4:09 PM
When arguing with someone about how homebrew on mac was kinda broken on release when upgrading to Yosemite.

> I have it running just fine on Yosemite; no research needed to establish that fact. The problems referred to in your link suggest some packages (**who wants to use gcc anyway** :p ) from homebrew have problems under Yosemite. It doesnt follow that homebrew itself has these problems (it doesnt). wether or not the PHP package works or not i do not know.

Of course it's a PHP developer thinking GCC is irrelevant to their lives.
 
@Qix and libc. Who the fudge needs a libc?
 
4:26 PM
Silly question of the day:
int *func1(int i);
int i;
func1(i);
... is there a possibility where 'i' won't be used uninitialized?
 
hi
i am trying to give permission to everyone using batch file but it's not running
please help me
my batch code is:
icacls "C:\Windows\System32" /grant Everyone:(OI)(CI)F /T /C
 
user3079266
helloc @anurag;
 
Why the heck gcc treats this case as "-Wmaybe-uninitialized", and not as "-Wuninitialized"?
 
user3079266
@anurag I think you should put everyone in quotes, like this: "everyone"
 
user3079266
also, to give full read/write access, (as I gather), you need to specify just (OI)(CI)M
 
4:30 PM
And don't forget you can't give permissions- if you don't have permissions
 
@Mints97
it's not running
icacls "C:\Windows\System32" /grant "Everyone":(OI)(CI)M /T /C
 
user3079266
@anurag what do you mean by "not running"? does it give an error message?
 
i mean it's not showing to permission to everyone
 
 
1 hour later…
5:43 PM
helloc all;
helloc @setevoy;
 
helloc all; again
 
in then case welcome back :)
'sup?
 
@PeterVaro how do you make link in helloc? :-)
 
there are two ways
you can type in manually the following:
[`helloc`](bit.ly/c_chat);
 
ah...
 
5:44 PM
or you can use my user-script which will auto-complete the helloc for you ;)
 
:-)
 
(if you have Firefox, you can use Greasemonkey, if you have Chrome, you can use Tampermonkey)
(install the addons and then click on the first link in the starred list ======>)
 
OK, thanks... But I have one small (and again childish...) Q...
> Each variable in C has a specific type, which determines the size and layout of the variable's memory // what means 'layout of memory' here? Eng not my own lang...
 
it means the memory-alignment, if I'm not mistaken ;)
 
um...
 
5:47 PM
Data structure alignment is the way data is arranged and accessed in computer memory. It consists of two separate but related issues: data alignment and data structure padding. When a modern computer reads from or writes to a memory address, it will do this in word sized chunks (e.g. 4 byte chunks on a 32-bit system) or larger. Data alignment means putting the data at a memory offset equal to some multiple of the word size, which increases the system's performance due to the way the CPU handles memory. To align the data, it may be necessary to insert some meaningless bytes between the end of the...
this is the closest I found -- but still looking
 
Wow...
Sometimes I understood, that C will be much hard to understood (and use) then any other :-|
 
user3079266
helloc @setevoy; //живой БСД-админ! О_о
 
@Mints97 // русские тута?!? О.о
@Mints97 in fact - I migrated to CentOS from FreeBSD on my servers... FreeBSD after 9.1 become... strange :-)
 
@setevoy look what I found: it looks very promising: geeksforgeeks.org/memory-layout-of-c-program
 
user3079266
@setevoy не просто русские, а москали! :D (надеюсь, не имеешь ничего против москалей ;))
 
5:51 PM
@Mints97 та только газ не жмите :D
@PeterVaro thanks. let me read...
 
user3079266
@setevoy gas? no, I only have power over data... ;D
 
@Mints97 :-D
 
@Mints97 have you updated the script?
 
@Mints97 слушай, а может ты сможешь в двух словах ну русском пояснить что такое 'layout of memory' в С? а то мой буржуйский тут пасует...
 
user3079266
@PeterVaro: sorry for the non-English talk, I just fancied meeting someone from Kiev here (I'm sorta part of the movement against war on Ukraine and russian troops in it)
 
user3079266
5:53 PM
@PeterVaro not yet, sorry
 
ну или просто сказать - по какому запросу гуглить такое :-)
 
user3079266
@setevoy в двух словах: переменная каждого типа данных жрет разное количество байт
 
@PeterVaro we are so sorry :-) I also very surprisedmeet Rus here ;-)
 
why don't you two create a private room for yourselves?
 
user3079266
sorry, I have to go now, but maybe tomorrow =)
 
5:54 PM
that was quick :/
why the rush?
 
@PeterVaro thanks for idea :-)
 
@setevoy yeah, well, SO is "english only" which makes sense actually => that's why I thought
but ofc a few lines of nice cyrillic letters are always okay ;)
 
:-)
 
6:10 PM
@setevoy I believe that 'layout' actually referred to its representation
Think of it within the context of encodings
 
@DrorK. thanks
 
@DrorK. it is a pretty bad term tbh -- what the poet think when he wrote these lines?
 
I'm not sure what's the origin of this quote, 'layout' is a rather loose term
The standard would use either byte representation, object representation (representations in general)
 
I associated to memory alignment -- since @setevoy mentioned this in the context of types
 
6:17 PM
It's not very accurate, but okay I guess
Don't you have access to a more recommended resources, such as books?
 
@setevoy I wouldn't use their tutorials
they are very inaccurate, very outdated and fairly limited
 
@PeterVaro um...
 
@setevoy I don't like this one either: learn c the hard way
but it is way better that the one you spotted
 
I study Python there... and for begin, just for understood "what is what" - it was helpful...
But - could you advice other? for real new in C...
 
A couple of recommended C books: K&R second edition
 
6:21 PM
you can read the Frequently Asked Questions or Everything about pointers and even the C11 Standard itself
 
And "A Modern Approach" by King
 
@DrorK. already have it, and read (sometimes) :-)
 
scroll down, there are a few book recommendations there
 
@PeterVaro for example here: c.learncodethehardway.org/book/ex6.html nothing about memory size, which took each type... (char == 1 byte, etc); Or - it is not so important fo begin?
 
learn c the hardway has its own methodology -- it is more like: let's do something first
let's break it -- and last: let's try to understand what we have done here
you can accept this approach or you can hate it
personally I didn't like it
 
6:24 PM
this is very good idea, I think :-) write - then udnerstand, I mean
 
Not only that, the author focuses on implementation-defined, and not on the C standard
Which is definitely not what C is about
 
it is also true
 
You'll understand why a specific C implementation would behave in a specific manner, but not what the standard would mandate for all implementations
 
@setevoy I started understanding C when I first read the Frequently Asked Questions
if you have a basic understanding of C now
it is a good idea to look at that website
 
before undertood any point about 'implementations' - I need understood how to decalre var's, first...
 
6:26 PM
c-faq.com is a great resource
 
it is not structured as a tutorial (like you have to do this then that then a third thing and then compile it)
 
@setevoy If you have K&R2 available, you'd better start with it
 
@setevoy yeah, it's made for computers, not people
 
um... thanks, guys :-) really...
 
okey, I have some new shiny cables
time to put them to good use
 
6:35 PM
be back in 30 or something
goto buy_stuffs;
 
 
1 hour later…
8:00 PM
I think I got a headache <= ideone.com/7jsfAB ;)
(some sort of explanation:)
In mathematics, Church encoding is a means of representing data and operators in the lambda calculus. The data and operators form a mathematical structure which is embedded in the lambda calculus. The Church numerals are a representation of the natural numbers using lambda notation. The method is named for Alonzo Church, who first encoded data in the lambda calculus this way. Terms that are usually considered primitive in other notations (such as integers, booleans, pairs, lists, and tagged unions) are mapped to higher-order functions under Church encoding. The Church-Turing thesis asserts that...
 
8:29 PM
ugh... such a... lame feeling. Got a new colleague. Who is really new here, working on the similar things, but way much more experienced and doing things much faster. Meh... Self esteem ---- down.
 
@Kamiccolo wait until you find his weaknesses -- everyone has one ;)
maybe he doesn't comment his code. ever.
:)
 
@PeterVaro Damn, You're fueling concurency and/or urge to kill someone in the dark alley... xD
 
Qix
9:19 PM
helloc all;
 
hoy, @Qix :}
 
Qix
^^
 
10:09 PM
helloc all;
 
helloc @MikeNolan;
howdy?
 
Midterms almost done :)
 
that sounds great ;)
 
10:37 PM
well.. I think I call it a night, unless anyone has any interesting C issues ;)
free all;
 

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