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12:44 AM
helloc all;
hey @carpetjar -- I know you are gone now.. but -- long time no see! how is your display working?
 
sup
what timezone are you @Peter?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm at the crazy PeterVaro's-totally-messed-up-dream-land
I'm just pushing myself back to normal
 
@PeterVaro that's not what I asked though :P
hmm I guess I have to swtich to javascript for a while
 
the normal should be something liek 7AM => 10 PM
but right now, I'm stucked at 2AM => 6 PM
btw: GMT + 1
 
ouch
so
what are you working on these days
 
12:56 AM
well, I'm finishing 'cutils' which is inserted into 'pycasso'.. so basically the same old ;) I'm really behind my own schedules.. but as usual: unexpected bugs and difficulties appeared..
and since I want these code bases, to be as nice and idiomatic as possible -- this is going to be my portfolio -- I can't afford any hacking :)
what are you up to?
 
@PeterVaro I'm making a small game, and have just finished the server part for now.
 
ahh.. so that's why you have to use JS though
 
I am having different problems, because while I don't have pretty much any bugs (which is rather obvious considering my choice of language), I still feel that I am terribly bad a it.
@PeterVaro yeah. My friend actually started it, but he's on vacation now so I guess I'll have to push that forward.
The client has drawing functionality already, but lacks the communication part.
 
any, I bbl -- but right now, the brain is finally awakened, ready for work, and this is the best part of the day to make progress ;)
goto work;
 
 
8 hours later…
9:14 AM
uff... sleepiness...
 
10:12 AM
Good morning @Kamiccolo
 
helloc all;
@PeterVaro just fine, but it's too big for my tiny desk.
 
helloc @carpetjar;
Wb :)
 
how is going? what happend when I was off?
 
I made a successful XHR to my server from my client.
 
Everything is same @carpetjar ;)
Good @Bartek
 
10:17 AM
that's good @BartekBanachewicz was the deployment hard?
 
@carpetjar I haven't deployed yet. I was just testing the API compatibility.
 
eh, wait untill deployment, it's always fun
 
I am not using any external persistence right now, so it wouldn't be a problem vOv
just clone and build.
 
I'm too pesimistic to believe it. Client will always find some faults.
or, as others say "random features"
 
Something like this :P
 
10:27 AM
@carpetjar nope, it's in Haskell :P
 
10:49 AM
lovely:
in Python, 19 hours ago, by Ffisegydd
http://bjorn.tipling.com/if-programming-languages-were-weapons
 
@PeterVaro no Haskell :(
 
probably the author is not familiar with it
 
world needs more haskell programmers
 
maybe yes, maybe not -- if it really needs more, then there will be more ;)
 
More and more companies start using Haskell
it's a really great sign for the future
people are realizing that pure FP is the way to go in a lot of the problems
 
10:53 AM
I think the world needs better programmers in general, not Haskell, C, JS or Python obsessed folks
and better programmers will use the most optimal tool for a problem
 
@PeterVaro the point is that FP was a niche until quite recently
 
because they are better in analysing a problem and choose a tool and system for that problem
 
@PeterVaro pcs getting faster is also an important factor
 
@BartekBanachewicz tell that to the LISP guys ;)
 
@PeterVaro precisely what I mean; they formed small, closed communities
I wouldn't say that 20 years ago there were less good programmers, quite the contrary
however the FP languages were worse and computers were slower.
 
10:55 AM
@BartekBanachewicz small? closed? whole Emacs religion is after LISP
 
@carpetjar and still Lisp is a really small niche
Clojure is changing that a bit, but very slowly IMO
 
where's that from?
some reference could be nice.
 
ah TIOBE is meaningless.
 
11:01 AM
@PeterVaro what do the numbers mean?
 
I was afraid you might fall in the trap.
 
I kinda like TIOBE, it is very accurate -- it has its downfalls, sure, but it is still the most accurate one
@carpetjar those are rankings
 
@PeterVaro if that's the most accurate one, then it's safe to say that no rankings exist whatsoever
in my (and a lot of others) opinion, TIOBE is completely useless
 
@PeterVaro rankings, sure, it looks like that, but what do they measure? Number of bytes to implement quicksort?
 
@carpetjar are you not familiar with TIOBE?
 
11:03 AM
@carpetjar number of youtube videos
 
@PeterVaro no, I have never heard of it.
 
@carpetjar then check the link I posted above!
 
BTW, does C11 have a standard thread library?
 
@PeterVaro I see now.
@PeterVaro how is your keyboard?
 
11:13 AM
Digging the history: ADA vs C, Boeing 777 - archive.adaic.com/projects/atwork/boeing.html
 
11:23 AM
@Kamiccolo yeah, Ada is used a lot in aeroplane industry
its type system is great at expressing numerical constants, strong typedefs model mathematical units nicely, and threads are very safe
idiomatic Ada is also very literate
I think the language has evolved really nicely over the years, and is one of the best imperative languages out there nowadays
> Honeywell approached the request by conducting an extensive study into the benefits of Ada versus the C programming language. When the results were in, Honeywell agreed with the decision to use Ada: the study concluded that Ada's built-in safety features would translate into less time, expense, and concern devoted to debugging the software.
 
@PeterVaro last time I checked java was the highest
oh, it is still second
 
goto shop;
 
free @carpetjar
 
11:46 AM
return;
 
@carpetjar I actually love it
I had to use a regular silicon-bedded one -- and wow..
 
@PeterVaro do you have something mechanical?
 
I can't tell you how a mechanical keyboard is better
@BartekBanachewicz yepp, built with Cherry MX Blue switches
 
@PeterVaro I also have a keyboard with blue-s at home
 
@Apoorv JAVA is falling -- which is not a big surprise, actually.. All the fancy modern languages have all what JAVA had back then, and they all have it better
@BartekBanachewicz I just love them
love the hardness of them, the sounds of them, everything
 
11:57 AM
could you link your keyboard?
 
Greens are nice too I've heard.
 
the only thing I don't like, is the caps: they are made from cheap ABS and they are almost shiny now
 
what particular keyboard did you buy?
 
@BartekBanachewicz they are harder to push -- but yeah, those are nice too
@carpetjar && @BartekBanachewicz this one
 
I have a Razer Blackwidow
 
12:01 PM
that's a nice one too -- although I wanted a pure, minimal, black one, with detachable USB
 
helloc all :)
 
helloc @Robik;
 
helloc @Robik
my friend is going back from US and I'm thinking which one should I tell him to buy
 
@carpetjar WASD CODE
no question ;)
 
@PeterVaro Unicomp model M?
 
12:02 PM
it is a bit harder than mine, but still super fancy
@carpetjar those are too retro for me
but if you like the look and feel of those
then go for them ;)
@carpetjar but if I had the chance to get one these: codekeyboards.com
 
they'r also 100$ cheaper...
 
nice price tag, that's for sure
 
I mean, I don't want to pay 100$ for a few LEDs and design.
 
well, individual LED backlit for the keys is quite nice actually
also: you can reprogram it, with the switches => QWERTZ? QWERTY? DVORAK? no problem
 
@PeterVaro how do I care about backligh - my keyboard: key.ru/images/cms/imgwatermark/…
 
12:07 PM
:P
but in europe, because of some patterns, which belongs to Falco now for at least 3 more years
 
why key description on side?
 
this model is not available
@carpetjar 1) they don't fade away 2) it looks super-mega-giga-awesome
it is just as minimal as it can be
anyway, I have to go now, bbl folks -- hold the line!
goto back_to_work;
 
@PeterVaro when you'r back see this concept: razerzone.com/switchblade/gallery keys that have on them what you choose them to have. They don't fade away and look more awesome
 
helloc all; I have come to a conclusion (after reading K&R and other wiki articles) that I am socially inept whe it comes to array(especially when manipulating them with pointers) does anyone know good resources (problems?) about the same ?
 
12:24 PM
helloc @ArchKudo;
 
helloc @ArchKudo
 
helloc @Kamiccolo @Robik
Isn't this chatroom usually more lively ??
 
just found this out
2
 
@Apoorv had seen it already though!! nice
 
@ArchKudo Don't know, I am new myself
 
12:30 PM
@Robik oh no worries !!
 
@ArchKudo have you checked this out ?
 
To chat room, not to progamming :)
 
@Apoorv ya it lists mostly first in google
@Robik 'm sorry
 
that's what i did :P
 
@ArchKudo What for? Nothing to be sorry of :o
 
12:33 PM
@Robik it was my bad whatsoever..
 
1:26 PM
Robik, Poland
3.1k 15 31
> Poland
 
@BartekBanachewicz Can't disagree
 
I've heard bad things about the country.
this room seems to die at certain periods
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, we have horrible reputation
@BartekBanachewicz Haven't you been yesterday in PHP room?
With that Haskell jazz
 
@Robik might be
@Robik the probability of it being me raised significantly
 
@BartekBanachewicz E_STATEMENT_TOO_SMART
Is this side effect of learning haskell? ;)
 
1:36 PM
@Robik I should've told you I react badly to written PHP
@Robik A side effect of learning Haskell is certainly having eyes open much wider, yes.
 
@BartekBanachewicz what about spoken one? :}
 
@Kamiccolo probably even worse
 
@BartekBanachewicz I've tried learning it but it seems that is written for some Math Ph.D :/
 
fortunately php names are mostly unpronounceable (like "strstr")
@Robik Knowing basic math certainly helps in programming, yes. It also uses notation similar to mathematical one in a lot of aspects; otherwise I don't think it's the case.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Define basic math
Basic is kinda vague
 
1:42 PM
@Robik set theory and algebra; you might also notice familiar concepts from category theory, type theory (obviously) and group theory
however, similar to how it's not necessary to know the definition of a ring to add numbers, it's not necessary to know those in depth to use haskell
The one concept that's particularly common and appears a lot in various forms in the language is the morphism.
 
@BartekBanachewicz List will be certainly helpful, thanks
 
@Robik I really was serious when saying that you don't need those beforehand :P
You kinda pick them up on the go.
 
@BartekBanachewicz How's morphism in Polish?
 
@Robik Should be "morfizm", but Polish Wikipedia aliases that to category theory only.
Still might be worth to read though ("Przykłady" specifically)
 
@BartekBanachewicz There was no Polish link and knowing my luck I'd end up on bad page.
 
1:48 PM
Cheering the fudge up: youtu.be/j6lQ747mJUw?t=38m27s ^_^
 
A lof of those concepts sounds very advanced in formal speech, where they are really quite simple.
Monoid would be a prime example of that.
everyone can instinctively grasp the commonality in (*, 1) , (+, 0) and (append, "")
 
@BartekBanachewicz That are some higher-studies material I assume?
 
@Robik It's certainly not in the regular high-school curriculum.
 
@Kamiccolo the drummer looks so bored :D
 
@Apoorv yup, kind a repetitive rhytmic at this song... but still :} sounded pretty fun live, last saturday... :]
 
1:53 PM
he's like "man, they gave me the slowest possible job on earth"
 
ha ha ha xD
@BartekBanachewicz meh... "login to listen free"
 
@BartekBanachewicz spotify not available in my country
 
oh well.
John 5 - This is My Rifle, Careful With That Axe album
 
@BartekBanachewicz thanks, will check it out ^_^
 
@BartekBanachewicz actually i'm not that much into metal
 
I think that the genre is broad enough that you'd still find something that would fit you.
 
my hatred is more towards heavy/death metal
 
why would you hate it? :)
 
its just not my taste
i liked it before but now it just seems like random noise
 
2:54 PM
@BartekBanachewicz +1. Jazz, blues, whatever crossovers... :}
or some classic heavy...
 
3:44 PM
@Apoorv I can't possibly imagine how you'd classify music like Kiss or Judas Priest as "random noise"
 
DO IT DO IT DOOOO IT
 
 
1 hour later…
user3079266
4:51 PM
@Apoorv Just a note: I also don't like these kinds of metal, and this made me shun metal in general. until I heard power metal, specifically, Dragonforce... =) Metal is an extraordinarily broad term, you should check out its different kindsand sorts.
 
@carpetjar that looks nice, however it is a somewhat a copycat-concept of OptimusMaximus
 
user3079266
well, guys, I've officially started my university studies today ;)
 
and it wasn't a concept, but a limited series -- as it was (and still is) extremely expensive => each key is an OLED display
@Mints97 congrats for that!
 
user3079266
@PeterVaro thanks! Although we don't get any real courses till thursday, with the exception of one phychology lecture
 
I really should say some wise words now, like: "these years are the best, and probably the last of its kind..." but I won't..
you will realise it yourself :P
 
user3079266
5:03 PM
lol, maybe =)
 
well, my only advice is: use these years well! -- whatever that means to you :)
 
user3079266
@PeterVaro yeah, thanks, that's some good advice... =)
 
user3079266
 
@Robik not in hungary!
> Polak, Węgier — dwa bratanki,
i do szabli, i do szklanki,
oba zuchy, oba żwawi,
niech im Pan Bóg bÅ‚ogosÅ‚awi.
@Kamiccolo I knew that one -- but in a more simpler graphical representation.. anyway, still funny ;)
@Apoorv I'm with you -- I hate metal -- in broad term -- just as I do rock, pop, pop-rock, and all the fancy and not so fancy "mainstream" music
viva la modern, post-modern and contemporary classical, jazz and experimental music!
anyway, I call it a night for now, I finally managed to stay awake till 19:00 => with 16 hours of coding :)
goto bed;
 
user3079266
free @PeterVaro;
 
5:31 PM
@PeterVaro Indeed :D
 
@Mints97 my official day is on 3rd :)
but that's for school though :P
 
user3079266
@Apoorv no september 1 tradition in Kuwait?
 
@Mints97 its only this year for some unknown reason, usually its 1st Sep
 
user3079266
I see
 
On this page, can you tell me what does it mean by "processes created by this process will inherit the handle" ? what will happen to the parent's handle then ?
i thought you would know as you are familiar with windows programming
 
user3079266
5:46 PM
@Apoorv studyin' WinAPI? =) take my advice, don't use MFC (which these sort of docs are for), use the basic docs: msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/… On what you're wondering about, this looks like a good read: msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/… this means that the child process's handle basically points to the parent
 
I was just curios so as how debuggers work.. so my adventure brought me to the OpenProcess there :P
and thanks
 
user3079266
Windows debuggers mostly work through special API functions (I guess there exist some that work using advanced kernel-mode stuff, but not to my knowledge). This implies a crucial limit to the debuggers' capabilites caused by these APIs , that work so that one process can be debugged by only one debugger at a time.
 
i was wondering.. why they provide such an API anyway, they could have created a debugger that was supposed to be used everywhere
 
user3079266
by they, you mean whom? and by everywhere, you mean across different types of Windows or across different OSes?
 
5:53 PM
by "everywhere" i mean will all types of windows applications
and they= MS
 
user3079266
Microsoft has their own debugger, it's called WinDBG
 
@Apoorv Nothing stops them from creating such debugger. It would WinAPI and functions made public.
 
and they aren't forcing to the people to use that ? weird
they could have forced everyone to use WinDBG
 
Why would they
 
user3079266
and what do you mean by all types of Windows applications?
 
5:58 PM
@Robik because "someone" can use their API to reverse engineer
 
@Apoorv They provided a function that checks if process is debugged iirc
 
@Mints97 all types just means.. um.. all ring3 windows software
 
@Apoorv msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/… With this you could check if your process is debugged and react correctly.
Althrough I am not sure if it can be bypassed.
 
user3079266
well, WinDBG is a standard debugger, of course it will debug anything that another debugger can
 
user3079266
@Robik it can be easily bypassed, it's, like, the oldest and most useless trick in the anti-debugging book. OllyDBG has a standard extension that mitigates this crap.
 
user3079266
6:02 PM
as far as I know, the only reliable anti-debugging technique today is self-debugging
 
user3079266
helloc @cbednarski;
 
@Robik what i know about debugging theory is that a debugger modifies the bytes of a program and if it can change the bytes, it can make the program do anything
 
user3079266
welcome to the C room!
 
@Mints97 Yeah, but I meant bypassed by WinAPI
 
helloc @cbednarski
 
6:04 PM
Howdy ;)
 
helloc @cbednarski
 
user3079266
@Robik the techniques used to bypass it, whatever they are, eventually boil down to WinAPI calls
 
@cbednarski i am good thank you, how about you ? :)
 
user3079266
@cbednarski: as you're new here, you might find this interesting: goo.gl/9J8g3S =)
 
Yeah, I said it wrong.
 
6:09 PM
so inherited handles just mean that if one process changes some properties, those properties are also changed in the child process right ?
 
user3079266
@Apoorv no, not really.
 
user3079266
you might want to read about process handles
 
6:22 PM
@PeterVaro :)
btw
noone answered my question about threads in C11
 
@Mints97 what i understand from reading is that an inherited process operates on the same "object" as the parent process
that's what i am interpreting from those atricles
 
user3079266
@Apoorv object may not be the best term here, but you generally got the idea, I think.
 
@Mints97 object is the term they use in this article: msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/…
"An inherited handle refers to the same object in the child process as it does in the parent process"
 
user3079266
yep, because you normally have handles to, like, all sorts of stuff: processes, windows, etc
 
yeah that's what i thought
btw, working of a debugger is a lot more interesting than i thought it would be :P
 
user3079266
6:30 PM
you going to make your own debugger?
 
eh those handles are pretty annoying to work with
 
@Mints97 yeah once I finish my current project
not a hardcore one ofc, a simple one for fun
 
user3079266
@BartekBanachewicz with disassembly step-by-stepping? that's already quite a lot, IMHO =)
 
yes assembly is annoying as hell to write :P
well while we're at assembly, since my friend is refactoring the server, i can work on the client
 
user3079266
@BartekBanachewicz you creatin' it with assembly? ;D
 
6:37 PM
@Mints97 I'm not mad enough yet to write in assembly :P
nah, it's JS
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol "yet"
 
@Apoorv programming is a serious mental injury risk :v
 
 
1 hour later…
7:57 PM
@PeterVaro uh... I wish Your words would motivate me go back to university...
 
@Kamiccolo my university is terrible vOv
 
@BartekBanachewicz uh... dying of envy for MIT, Edinburgh, You name it... :/
 
@Kamiccolo ICL too
 

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