« first day (1303 days earlier)      last day (3645 days later) » 

12:00 PM
@Jefffrey In all honesty everybody in this room agrees about the fact PHP has flaws. (So do other languages btw). In the end for me I use what makes me money. And what helps me make money
 
@Jefffrey It doesn't, but it's everywhere. And ^ that. So much ^ that.
 
@DanLugg Then I don't understand your point, considering the fact that we were discussing how bad PHP is.
@PeeHaa I'm happy for you :D
 
@Jefffrey No, you're discussing how bad PHP is, I've agreed with you, and as usual am just carrying on with using it because money.
 
Ok, so we can all agree that money is a huge benefit of PHP.
Probably the main one.
 
Nope. You didn't read
I don't care about language X. I care about making money
Whether it is PHP or brainfuck.
 
12:02 PM
@PeeHaa And you make money with PHP. So... PHP brings money? Which was the point I was agreeing on ?!?
 
I don't work to jerk of over code. If that awesomesauce code doesn't make money it's useless
 
I am not drunk, but this conversation makes no sense
 
lol, I'm hungover which is why I keep asking myself why I'm still participating.
 
@Jefffrey PHP is part of what makes me money yeah
So are some other languages.
 
> Assertion failed: ((((*(pz)).u1.v.type_flags & (1<<1)) != 0)), function zval_delref_p, file Zend/zend.h, line 398.
Abort trap: 6
 
12:04 PM
@PeeHaa Never excluded that.
 
Awesome! I love not knowing what's going on :)
 
I draw the line when I have to do Java or Ruby though
 
@PeeHaa I don't care personally, I'll fuck anything use any language for money.
 
@user3622030 lol.
 
@DanLugg Well it all depends on the amount obviously. You know I'm a whore. And depending on the technology not a cheap one :P
 
12:06 PM
^^ Exactly.
 
@Jefffrey I just think saying PHP is this and that is short sighted.
 
@RonniSkansing How?
 
lol
well it is. You do not know the value or intent people using the language has
 
Please note, that most of the messages in that search are all from avid PHP users and internals contributors.
 
12:08 PM
You need context
And pasting the narrow context you are viewing it in, is a shame to throw at people.
 
@RonniSkansing Hmm. How is its usage relevant when considering the design quality of a language?
 
Lolest, genius answers from ..
 
@Jefffrey well I concluded from your profile text "Wanna know why I abandoned PHP without remorse? Read here"
 
@RonniSkansing That's really not an answer to the above question.
 
@Jefffrey how is design not relevant to usage?
 
12:11 PM
@Jefffrey No but it does position you as a bandwagoner to that article. Mind you, that's not an uncommon result.
 
@RonniSkansing Still not answer.
@DanLugg So what?
 
@Jefffrey hmm. I am unable to deattach those things. usage goes with design.
 
So nothing; a mostly correct article outlining the obvious flaws of a language has persuaded you to not use it anymore. Why do you care if anyone else does?
 
^ Exactly
 
@DanLugg I don't?
 
12:14 PM
Then I'm hallucinating a lengthy debate.
 
Sure you already suggested using another language a couple of times now
as a solution
 
@RonniSkansing Yup. You might fall in love with other beautiful languages. That definitely doesn't hurt.
 
@Jefffrey because I find a new love does not mean I bash my ex
 
^^ It does if your ex drank all the fucking coffee.
 
You don't? Ohh......
:D
 
12:16 PM
haha
 
@RonniSkansing Okay. Good for you. :) I did, because I actually care about the beauty of a language. But that's just me, I guess.
It is to be noticed that I loved PHP. But only when it was the only language I knew.
 
@Jefffrey beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
 
He he, not in this case.
 
@Jefffrey Language aesthetics and expressiveness are hugely important; if you need that, you've done well to look elsewhere. PHP works if you need a fatter wallet, and don't mind getting your hands a bit dirty.
 
12:18 PM
Then we agree.
 
We never disagreed that PHP has warts, on warts.
 
@Jefffrey how about the day you find out what you are dating now is ugly?
(programming lang wise)
 
If there's a better alternative I'll jump right onto it.
 
Well, so you rant positive things when you dont know, and negative things when you know?
 
If all you are is a frog, then everything looks like a lily-pad.
 
12:20 PM
lol
@RonniSkansing I rant what I know. Yes. I don't usually rant what I don't know or didn't understand.
 
hehe
=] Well fair enough
 
Tbf I don't even remember half of the things there are written in that article, but I remember the laughs and cries I've spent reading it.
 
Dunno, its been a long time since I read it, some of the stuff where purely incompetence
 
Aside from the money, aside from the practical reasons in general; PHP is actually a fairly good language academically, because it's so easy to write garbage, and there's so much misinformation; it forces you to think about design if you want to "do it right". It doesn't coddle you like some other languages do.
A language for the sadists.
 
lol just rereading that article, it is pretty retarded some of it
(int) is obviously designed to look like C, but it’s a single token; there’s nothing called int in the language. Try it: not only does var_dump(int) not work, it throws a parse error because the argument looks like the cast operator.
 
12:28 PM
But you can just pick anything really and there's nothing that you can say "well, this component is well designed, good job". Just look at something as important as the global namespace: all filled with library functions. The documentation? Cryptic to say the least. Arrays can be arrays or hashes or both at the same time. There some ridiculous choices on library functions, (like substr returning false in certain cases).
 
And those are just the ones I can think of right now.
 
user895378
> The documentation? Cryptic to say the least.
 
user895378
^ Only if you don't know how to read
 
I think there's something funny with strings implicitly converting to boolean or integers too.
 
12:30 PM
Mornin @rdlowrey
 
user895378
@DanLugg morning :)
 
> If length is given and is 0, FALSE or NULL an empty string will be returned.
 
I actually had an HTTP question (I might've pinged you when I had it, can't remember); Given someone POSTs a resource, and I give back a 201 with a Location to it's intended URI. If someone GETs the URI before the resource is ready (long running build process, etc.) what's the best response? 404?
@rdlowrey ^
 
So, NULL and false are clearly malformed input, and it returns an empty string?
While the "return value" section says:
> Returns the extracted part of string; or FALSE on failure, or an empty string.
 
It only returns false if the extracted part falls outside of the string.
 
12:33 PM
@Jefffrey substr was a function that existed in the very early days of PHP
 
user895378
@Jefffrey No one thinks PHP is a great language. You're arguing with nobody ;)
 
Otherwise, it's your own fault.
 
Disregard that. PHP sucks.
 
lol
 
user895378
@Jefffrey But every language has problems. Name your pet language and similar WTFs can be ticked off ad nauseum for it just as easily.
 
12:34 PM
Yay, my extension no longer crashes php .. normality is restored!
 
@Jack For now.
 
@rdlowrey Except COBOL. COBOL is perfect.
 
@DanLugg Except for lolcode.
 
@DanLugg Maybe 202?
 
user895378
"What was that? Did you say LISP? I could've sworn you said LISP."
 
12:36 PM
Or 302 without an actual redirect?
 
Is there a point of doing array_merge($array)?
 
@rdlowrey I can definitely tell that exceptions with phpng are thrown considerably faster now ... ehm >.> type type type
 
@Jefffrey Hmm, 202 could work, but maybe for the initial POST. I don't think repurposing 302 would be good though.
It's the initial request that'd be accepted and deferred, so 202 sorta fits.
But I'm more concerned with the GET against the "not ready" resource; it exists, just has no data ready yet.
Something like 1XX Not Ready would be ... y'know, perfect.
 
user895378
I'd use standard Post-Redirect-Get with 201 in response to the original POST with a Location: header pointing to the new resource. Then use 202 for requests to the "not ready" resource until it's ready.
 
@rdlowrey Please do it with Haskell. I'm asking because I'm curious.
 
user895378
12:40 PM
You should be able to generate a "placeholder" immediately for the 202 resource (like before you return the initial 201)
 
@SecondRikudo I don't think so by itself, but I could imagine doing: call_user_func_array('array_merge', $arraysToMerge);
 
@DanLugg 202 for the post, and 404 for the resource if it isn't available yet.
 
E_MIXED_OPINIONS!
 
@Danack No, because I just saw that line in code I'm working on :|
 
user895378
@Jefffrey Hey I wrote this awesome functional program in Haskell. It has no side effects (because no one uses it).
 
12:41 PM
@DanLugg E_NOT_EVERYTHING_IS_AN_E
 
@rdlowrey What?
 
@SecondRikudo It is pre-OO-era.
 
user895378
@Jefffrey It's a joke about functional programming (no side effects).
 
@rdlowrey Just post the xkcd ;-)
 
@DanLugg We are no in the OO-era, deal with it.
 
12:42 PM
 
user895378
@DanLugg didn't feel like Googling to find it :) Thanks
 
@rdlowrey Oh thanks God. I thought you were really going there. But seriously, please, bash my pet language.
It could be fun.
 
user895378
LISP-like languages don't count, obviously. Everyone knows they're perfect.
 
user895378
But you can't even put something like PHP and Haskell on the same plane.
 
I don't think anybody here has sufficient experience with Haskell to give it the bashing it deserves
 
12:44 PM
202 seems to be more about process queueing.
 
user895378
@DanLugg Which is kind of what you're doing, isn't it?
 
We could probably bash C++ though, if that would be to your liking ^^
 
Oh man, I know C++ sucks.
 
I know you know
 
I know you all know.
 
12:45 PM
@rdlowrey Sort of, the resource creation starts immediately, but the process may take awhile; it's not queued per se, and preconditions should determine failure immediately (such that a deferred failure shouldn't be possible)
 
@NikiC check out how namespacing is done in Haskell, should get you started
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Oh hai Ben.
What do you mean?
 
user895378
@DanLugg What do you mean by pre-conditions? In HTTP parlance those only apply to GET requests.
 
@Jefffrey Did you come here to tell people PHP sucks too?
 
Really guys, the only clean and internally consistent language is Brainfuck
 
12:46 PM
Y'know what'd be nice? A status-code-to-use-case dictionary.
 
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum Happy belated birthday
 
Theorem 1: Every non-trivial language sucks.
 
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't think @Jefffrey realizes that everyone here already knows PHP sucks :)
 
@rdlowrey Pre-conditions on the resource creation in application logic; failure to create, etc.
 
12:46 PM
@NikiC Theorem 0: Every language sucks in some way.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Also you are supposed to help me. You know, Lounge-brotherhood and all.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I actually came here to mock a troll, but then people read my profile and... well... we ended up talking about it.
 
^^ everything is crap; including markdown
 
12:47 PM
@Jefffrey lol, I like getting to rip on Haskell sometimes, especially since Bartek thinks it's so awesome but never really used it :D
 
Yeah, bartek tends to fanboy about it.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You aren't a function.
Off with their head!! PHP haters!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum in PHP? Are you sure?
 
YOU'RE WELCOME
 
lol
 
12:53 PM
And let the war begin :D
 
@SecondRikudo Move mine back plx?
but thanks in general
 
@Danack No can do. I'm not an owner there.
 
Anyone know what the fark happened with Travis recently? It seems they changed some environment setup ; working to not working when hhvm was added.
 
@SecondRikudo There goes the ping, I foresee a pong.
 
@Jefffrey yep.
 
user895378
12:58 PM
@NikiC How feasible would it be to internally suspend function executions (glorified generators, basically) until async results are resolved? e.g. something like ...
 
user895378
$generator = function() {
    $result1 = (resolve AsyncMultiply(21, 2));
    $result2 = $result1 / 6;
    return $result2; // int(7)
};
 
user895378
Where resolve is a basically the same as yield, except that it expects a specific interface to be yielded.
 
@rdlowrey I don't understand why you'd need internal suspension?
 
@rdlowrey So a long running process starts, and only begins blocking when the result is requested?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Nice.
 
1:00 PM
@DanLugg no blocking at all
 
@rdlowrey Why do you need internal support for that?
 
user895378
$generator = function() {
    list($result1, $result2, $result3) = (resolve [
        asyncMultiply(21, 2),
        asyncDatabaseThing(),
        asyncSomethingElse()
    ]);
    // ...
};
 
user895378
If you add an event loop to the mix you have built in async concurrency that feels synchronous.
 
I still don't understand why you'd need internal suspension?
 
user895378
1:03 PM
You don't need it because you could do it yourself with generators, of course. I was just thinking about ways to dumb down concurrency for the average PHP user.
 
@rdlowrey Btw, I'm not sure how exactly that example is supposed to work
Is resolve blocking until AsyncMultiply finishes?
Or does it behave like an actual yield and you can run something else in the meantime?
If so, doesn't that imply that we need to integrate an event loop and lightweight threading into PHP?
 
user895378
It behaves like a yield statement. You yield a standard interface implementation like:
 
user895378
interface Resolvable {
    public function onResolve(callable $onResolve);
    public function isResolved();
    public function isSuccess();
    public function getResult();
    public function getError();
}
 
user895378
The interpreter VM registers itself to be notified when the async operation completes and is able to send or throw the result back into the original function.
 
1:09 PM
$a = (resolve AsyncProcess()); // start AsyncProcess
$b = syncProcess();            // AsyncProcess still going
$c = syncProcess();            // AsyncProcess still going
$d = syncProcess($a, $b, $c);  // blocks until $a is resolved
^^ Not what you're talking about, right?
 
user895378
There's no synchronization.
 
user895378
And yes, you need an event loop. Threading is optional, but can easily be integrated.
 
user895378
^ These things are relatively straightforward to do safely (I've been working on it with libuv over the past couple of days).
 
user895378
Basically it bakes concurrency into the language with zero knowledge required by the user.
 
user895378
And it eliminates any hint of callback hell, allowing any resolve "yields" to be wrapped in try/catch for easy error handling.
 
user895378
1:15 PM
In any case, I'm implementing all of this (short of the resolve functionality) right now in a fork of the php-uv extension. I'll ask again once I have a working implementation and it's easier to see what I'm suggesting.
 
@NikiC Yeah, that's fucked up. Obviously google will appeal.
 
@Danack It doesn't have to appeal AFAIK it just goes back to the previous judge to reexamine with a jury
 
@rdlowrey that standard interface is called a promise.
 
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum It's called a Future in Scala :)
 
@rdlowrey yeah, Scala's funny like that. In Scala a promise is the resolver itself (the deferred in JS or Python).
 
user895378
1:17 PM
yup
 
user895378
I don't know why but the JS terminology in this area annoys me. Deferreds and Thenables ... ugh
 
> Thanks Obama Oracle!
 
user895378
On the bright side, maybe people will stop using terrible Java as a result of this new Oracle decision.
 
@rdlowrey as long as Android Apps are based on Java...
 
user895378
1:23 PM
It's a terrible result for programmers everywhere, but it's hard to feel bad for Google.
 
^^ Google is the "victim" of the case, we're the victim of the precedent it sets.
 
@rdlowrey yeah... no
 
user895378
I don't really understand the decision at all. If you can copyright an API then basically every programmer in the last 30-40 years has infringed on the rights of someone else.
 
user895378
We're all law-breakers. Every single one of us.
 
1:25 PM
@DanLugg Can you explain why Obama? ^^
 
user895378
It breaks all of programming.
 
@PeeHaa I don't think so. The new ruling is a 'matter of law' by the new judge - although the case might go back to a jury, they only decide 'matters of fact' they don't get to interpret the laws.
 
@webarto It's just the meme's usual phrasing.
 
@rdlowrey And half of maths as well.
On the plus side - we can now sue Facebook for HHVM!
 
user895378
lol. Can all mathematicians now sue Oracle for using functions?
 
1:27 PM
@DanLugg Thanks Obama Dan.
 
#YOLO 20.1k messages
 
@webarto message counter is not a valid reason :-) But I still accept it :-D
 
Gratz fellow circle jerk!
 
1:29 PM
Wha... ?
 
@bwoebi Yeah, but it's a sign, sort of :)
 
I HAVE SPOKEN.
 
Bob would be a good dictator.
Italics Mafia.
 
1 message moved to bin
 
1:31 PM
No argument there :P
 
Ok - so now I'm going nuts.
Github seems to redirect from https://github.com/travis-ci/travis-ci/issues to
https://github.com/travis-ci/travis-ci/issues?labels=php&state=open automatically.
 
So ... can mathematicians now sue #Oracle because Java uses functions?
6
 
@bwoebi Instaretweet
 
@Danack Unless you click on "Closed", then it redirects there.
 
@DanLugg you have to ping @rdlowrey
 
1:37 PM
I'll ping who I want!
 
Also, it doesn't redirect to the PHP label for me, but if you chose that one last, that's what you'll get.
Clear your cookies/localStorage..
 
@SecondRikudo yeah - it was a cookie thing...it's stopped doing it now.
 
@bwoebi Yes, it's violating ancient arabic and greek copyrights, all Oracle personnel will be stoned according to that law.
 
:-)
 
@hakre Actually, because it's so ancient, you can't claim copyright (even if you weren't joking)
 
Current copyright law says that after 100 or so years after the author died the copyright is lifted.
 
That court thing makes it sound like Sun invented programming, in Java
 
oh .. the fun. Bunch of technological illiterates making laws on programming ... what could go wrong
@SecondRikudo which is obviously retarded, since only corporations live that long, not the authors
 
@tereško Of course, that's why it was made like that (with influence by the media corporations)
The excuse is to let his family enjoy the copyright and earnings. In reality, the corporation gets the majority of it.
@dondom how ask google search terms
a.k.a. Please write your question in complete sentences.
 
i will try
 
1:57 PM
||Second Rikudo|| of course expert you
I'm sorry, that was inappropriate.
 
What is your native language?
 
@dondom Neither it is mine.
 
@dondom well ... english is my 4th language .. so, what exactly is your excuse ?!
 
@RonniSkansing greek
 
Then you should probably know Zend pretty well.
 

« first day (1303 days earlier)      last day (3645 days later) »