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12:18 AM
posted on February 27, 2014 by Kaj

I upgraded Fossil on our server to 1.28: http://www.fossil-scm.org/download.html It has a new tree view mode for the files page. Some people seem to have a problem with the timeline being the default page for my repositories, so I changed the default page for all my repositories to the files tree, such as the above Red binaries and 0MQ binding repositories, and 18 others.

posted on February 26, 2014 by pd

On Thu, Feb 27, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Hostile Fork wrote:

 
12:32 AM
posted on February 26, 2014 by Hostile Fork

Trello is not the chat; it's a separate service from StackOverflow. I like to go through some indirection as "Rebol and Red" chat may not always use StackOverflow, but to give you a direct link if you were confused: http://chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/291/rebol-and-red If you are logged into StackO

 
@BrianH @earl @WayneTsui Go to my dropbox:
https://docs.google.com/folder/d/0B8Z4fCj7YAC9dGJwV2pwWVJfQW8/edit
download:
- connectbot-improved.apk (terminal with mouse support and gestures)
- README-GESTURES (for terminal)
- README-TERMINALIDE (TIDE integration)
- vim (executable with multibyte)
Enjoy!
 
Okay, well, I had to say something, but at least it wasn't the first thing I would have said.
 
12:50 AM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 64 so chat away!
 
pep
hi all, nice to come here and meet rebolers
 
Always fun to have new people! So, what do you do with Rebol, and why 2?
 
pep
hope to be of any help some day and contribute in any way
but for now I must log off, it's 2 a.m and I'm working in a couple of hours ;-)
lot of things, the more I use rebol the harder to come back to other languages
even when rebol programming is some times frustrating
due to lack of libraries or frameworks and also weird features
rebol 2 because it is stable and mature, available for lot of platforms and have no news of rebol 3 in needed areas
due to license question I also tried boron and world but sadly they seem to be abandonware
not to say orca! ;-)
 
1:09 AM
World seems to have been updated a few times recently (the last year) but I don't know how complete it is. I used to use Rebol 2 a lot more, but since Rebol 3 got ODBC the occasions where it's needed are rare.
 
pep
but ALAIK rebol 3 still lacks of usable gui
anyway I'll try it
 
The Atronix and Saphirion builds of Rebol 3 have a lot of practical features (such as a usable GUI and HTTPS), but I tend to use the mainline builds because they are further along in the great semantic cleanup, which I'm contributing to. Plus, I don't do GUI stuff.
 
pep
I'm reading on the right column you talked about a rebol-derived lang named topaz, I had no news about it, how is it? what licensed? I will try it
 
MIT licensed, compiles to Javascript, abandoned for many years now. Mostly a source of ideas for active projects now.
Also, there's a more recently developed Ruby spinoff named Topaz (they didn't check for name availability), so don't get them mixed up.
The main, active Rebol family language projects right now are Rebol 3 and Red. Both actively developed, commercially used, and open source.
 
posted on February 27, 2014 by Kaj

Since Red now has HELP and WHAT, I changed Try REBOL to execute the "Help" and "Available Words" buttons with Red instead of R3 (by default): http://tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl

 
pep
1:19 AM
what I'd like to see in rebol 3 is all annoying things of rebol 2 solved, like multiplatform bugs (serial port not working in mac osx), lost features like esmtp or imap, easy access to REST apis and web artifacts, more useful datatypes or wrapper functions, better ports, and extensibility points
ok i know rebol3 and red is the future
but I'm still feel comfortable with r2 and r3 seems a big change
 
@pep Better ports it already has, as well as better extensibility points, more useful datatypes and wrapper functions. Plus, it's modular so you can more easily add the missing stuff. The downside to being community-developed though is that some of the other stuff hasn't been written yet, due to not being needed yet by the contributors.
 
pep
red appears to be a system programming and compiled thing and i'm sure a interpreted REPL guy ;)
 
@pep the good news is: open source, anything fixable. The bad news currently is difficult leadership and delegation in open source Rebol. Red is actively managed by a lead dev who is picky but usually only rejects improvements if he has a better idea.
 
@pep yup, and Red is an even bigger change. We try to make these changes for the better though (and planning to undo some of the changes which aren't).
 
@pep Red has a Repl. Be sure to watch "what is red" the video... Its on red-lang.org under "contributions" tab.
 
pep
1:26 AM
yes I know I have to do the journey but only delaying it ;)
ok i'll do
 
@pep well, I'm not going to stop encouraging you to upgrade in the SO answers. A lot of what you asked had a simple "switch to Rebol 3" answer :)
 
pep
what kind of help or contributors those projects need? maybe betatesters?
 
@pep Thanks for following my advice BTW, i think you'll find your presence on Stack overflow useful.
 
pep
yes i think so
i see it's a huge comunity and very responsive
now i have to leave, sadly cause nice cnversation
 
@pep the contributions page outlines ideas, but even just learning and blogging helps...and its also fun to see the contrast once you are used to it
 
pep
1:30 AM
hope to see you soon
 
@pep please return ttys
 
pep
ok, sure
bye
 
@giuliolunati Very kind of you to do that! I will find time to try it out.
 
 
4 hours later…
5:29 AM
posted on February 26, 2014 by BrianHawley

Fixes the word comparison problem from http://issue.cc/r3/2113 Clean up REBINT vs REBCNT type mismatches in UTF decoding.

posted on February 27, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] Fix in https://github.com/rebol/rebol/pull/193

 
@HostileFork, so there!
 
 
2 hours later…
7:05 AM
@BrianH good news...!
 
7:59 AM
So PARSE isn't mezzanine, its native code? Does that make it harder to extend?
 
@AnthonyMichaelCook yes, but it is very flexible in the first place. It also is one of the reasons it is so fast.
@hostilefork has played with extending it recently so he would be a good one to comment
 
@AnthonyMichaelCook It was not designed with extensibility in mind in terms of adding new keywords. If you want to edit the native code, it's not really that much code, see parse.c. In Red FYI, PARSE is part of the system library; it is written in Red/System...it would be easier to copy and paste it into a project and make your own custom parse of equal performance, as Red/System is embeddable in Red.
Dialects themselves are the mechanism of extension in Rebol, and the question of how to make a dialect itself extensible is a tricky matter. There is no convention for substituting keywords... which limits the ability to (for instance) create a version of Rebol where all the words have been localized.
I've suggested having conventions for that--such as passing in a map with a /keywords refinement--would be good.
Parse is very fast, and sometimes the fastest way of solving a problem like "counting the number of newlines in a string" where hand-written code in the interpreter level can't match it. If you want to build on parse's performance, then transforming your dialect into corresponding parse code with metaprogramming can be the easiest way to go.
 
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 3577 so chat away!
 
Hello @Vlakarados, I like the icon. You make it?
 
Hi :)
Yeah, I was trying to do something interesting and abstract to look like SO default hash generated icons, but failed
Just read about Red
What's the connection between Red and Rebol?
 
8:14 AM
@Vlakarados Ah, well I designed that iconography. :-)
 
Pretty interesting one
 
@Vlakarados Red is a compiled version of Rebol, which does JIT-compilation and inserts a small interpreter into the executables it produces in order to handle that which defies compilation and needs runtime symbolic manipulation.
Rebol is an interpreter, written in ANSI-C, which has been around for a decade and a half... and you can see that it's very small (half megabyte!) and requires no installation; one executable, uncompressed, few dependencies. I designed that icon too. :-)
@RebolBot
copy/part (to string! read hostilefork.com) 80
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== {<!doctype html>
<html lang=en>
<head>
^-<meta charset=utf-8>
^-<meta name="google-}
 
I see
 
@RebolBot
parse "It's fun to use [Rebol], once you know how" [
    thru "["
    copy bracketed to "]"
]
print bracketed
 
8:18 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Rebol
 
@Vlakarados If you look at that parse example, the first parameter is the series input... the second is a block of "parse rules". That's code structure; it's the same kind of structures you use in evaluated contexts, except blocks aren't evaluated by default. So it's a code-as-data paradigm. Here PARSE gets to be its own mini-language, we call these "dialects"
Can you imagine how to change that code to include the brackets using only the words you see there so far?
What it's doing is it seeks the parse position "THRU" (so past) the open bracket so it's sitting right in front of the R. Then it copies everything up "TO" (so up to and not including) the close bracket into a variable called bracketed. Then it prints bracketed. K?
 
Something like from ?
 
@RebolBot
parse "It's fun to use [Red] too, which also has parse..." [
    to "["
    copy bracketed thru "]"
]
print bracketed
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
[Red]
 
@Vlakarados Just switch it around so it seeks up TO (but not including) the bracket in the first match. Then it's sitting in front of the bracket when it begins the copy. Then copy the "bracketed" variable as the contents up THRU (so including) the close bracket. Make sense?
 
8:25 AM
Interesting
 
@RebolBot
parse "Both [Rebol] and [Red] are language construction sets" [
    some [
        thru "[" copy bracketed to "]"
        (print bracketed)
    ]
    to end
]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Rebol
Red
== true
 
So the system layer will be separated from the more abstracted layers using dialects?
 
@Vlakarados There you see something else interesting. One of the "tinker-toys" in the Rebol data-is-code and code-is-data set is parentheses groups. In the default evaluator, parentheses blocks are used for precedence. In your dialects you can use them for anything you want. PARSE uses them to indicate code to execute when a rule match happens (it delegates to the default evaluator). You can use them for other things...
@Vlakarados Red/System is a dialect, it doesn't have metaprogramming... it's like C but it obeys the syntax of Rebol and Red. It can be embedded in Red programs, or you can write a Red/System program directly with no Red outer scaffold.
@RebolBot
parse "abbababbbbab" [
    (a-count: b-count: 0)
    some ["a" (a-count: a-count + 1) | "b" (b-count: b-count + 1)]
    (print [{There were} a-count {As and} b-count {Bs}])
]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
There were 4 As and 8 Bs
== true
 
8:31 AM
And you're only seeing a very few of the tinkertoys. :-) It makes XML seem ridiculous. The guy who designed JSON got inspiration from Rebol, and tells people they should look at it a lot.
@RebolBot
12-Dec-2012 + 60
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== 10-Feb-2013
 
@RebolBot
type? <div>
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== tag!
 
@RebolBot
if 10 < (a: b: 10 + 5) [
   print [{A was greater and its value is} a]
   print [{B should be the same value and it's} b]
]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
A was greater and its value is 15
B should be the same value and it's 15
 
8:33 AM
This is all code-is-data paradigm... so remember that bit...
@RebolBot
code: [print 10 + 20]
print [{Length of code is} length? code]
foreach symbol code [
    print [{Symbol} mold symbol {has type} mold type? symbol]
]
print {About to execute code!}
do code
append code [+ 30]
print [{New length after append is} length? code]
print {Executing code after append!}
do code
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Length of code is 4
Symbol print has type word!
Symbol 10 has type integer!
Symbol + has type word!
Symbol 20 has type integer!
About to execute code!
30
New length after append is 6
Executing code after append!
60
 
@Vlakarados Does that make sense?
@Vlakarados I highly suggest watching the "What is Red?" video if you have a bit of time. It is subtitled in several languages, we can always use more though.
 
Thank you, will watch a bit later
 
 
1 hour later…
9:41 AM
Some ideas about raising awareness about incompatible changes:
The information should be close to the code, so it gets written, and close to the user, so it gets read.

* Have a tag in commit messages, that can be recognized by a bot and published on a webpage.

Very close to both, and my favourite
* add some info about it to the doc-string of respective functions, with a tag, so that it can be found by scripts, later.
If there's some resistance to adding too much to docstrings, an idea I have used before:
Use the fact that multiline comments are created using a noop function:
@RebolBot
extended-doc: []
comment: function[cmt][append extended-doc cmt]
comment [ 'make "Long information about changes ... this could be integrated with 'help"]
select extended-doc 'make
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== {Long information about changes ... this could be integrated with 'help}
 
Why did it only print the return value?
 
@ingo Um, where's the print statement you expected to run?
 
10:37 AM
0
Q: How do I use collect keep in parse, to get embedded blocks?

ingoLooking at the html example here: http://www.red-lang.org/2013/11/041-introducing-parse.html I would like to parse the following: "val1-12*more text-something" Where "-" marks values which should be in the same block, and "*" should start a new block. So, I want this: [[ "val1" "12"]["more...

 
@HostileFork Sorry, my bad, I meant, why did it not show the source again?
 
@ingo do/echo
I think johnk changed it to no longer echo the commands
 
@GrahamChiu Ah, I think I saw this info rush by. but didn't remember. Sorry, I'll have to go now, see you later.
 
11:00 AM
posted on February 27, 2014 by Andrea Galimberti

Hi, I tried today with red-041 on a Linux system and it outputs: red>> print system/words *** Error: word has no value! *** Error: word has no value! *** Error: word has no value! *** Error: word has no value! *** Error: word has no value! *** Error: word has no value! *** Error: word has no value!

 
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 365 so chat away!
 
Hello @CMCDragonkai. polycademy.com is a nice looking site! Wish we had something more like that for Rebol and Red. Have you heard of the languages?
 
11:39 AM
@HostileFork Hello HostileFork, I just clicked on the Red advert and got put in here after reading the site. Red sounds like Opalang.
 
@CMCDragonkai I have not heard of Opalang. I'll look, but seeing it I doubt it does metaprogramming or compiles to code fast enough to write device drivers in!
 
Indeed, probably Haxe is a closer fit (haxe.org)
RebolBot?
 
@RebolBot delete
@RebolBot
copy/part (to string! read polycademy.com) 120
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== {<!DOCTYPE html>
<!--[if lt IE 7]>      <html class="no-js lt-ie9 lt-ie8 lt-ie7"> <![endif]-->
<!--[if IE 7]>         <ht}
 
@CMCDragonkai Rebol and Red are similar languages in terms of the basic features, though very different implementations. We have a RebolBot and a RedBot here to do evaluations and other things for us. I wanted to demonstrate a feature of Rebol there, that it has some rich types... like a URL! string subclass... anything that starts with foo:// is a URL!. It acts like a string but a function can be polymorphic with regards to it.
 
11:45 AM
What's your involvement in Rebol and Red?
 
@RebolBot
parse "There is a lot of design flexibility in [Rebol] due to dialecting" [
    thru "["
    copy bracketed to "]"
]
print bracketed
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Rebol
 
@CMCDragonkai Well, I designed the tower and logo in the ad you saw. :-) I'm a technical evangelist more or less, and I focus more on language design questions than on the implementation... though I am involved a bit with that too.
@CMCDragonkai If you read the above example with parse, does it "make sense"? It is a simple dialect example. PARSE takes two arguments; the data to parse, and a block of rules. These rules use the same data format as code, but because they are in a block they are not evaluated until you ask. Like Lisp sort of.
What it is doing in this case is matching rules; so it matches up THRU an open bracket, moving the parse position to right before the "R" in Rebol. Then it copies the data into a variable bracketed up until the match up TO the close bracket (but not including it). So you get Rebol. Good for starters?
@RebolBot delete
@RebolBot
parse (to string! read polycademy.com) [
    thru "<title>"
    copy title to "</title>"
]
print title
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
Polycademy - an academy for web application entrepreneurship
 
@CMCDragonkai Same principle. Does that much make sense for starters?
 
11:55 AM
interesting, well it was good talking to you but I have to go now, I'll keep track of red
 
@CMCDragonkai Do keep in touch. There's quite a lot to show, and it's now getting some business attention. Will be on the cover of CSDN print magazine next month... 2 million print subscribers in China, not counting the website. We're confident it's a big deal. :-)
 
12:08 PM
@HostileFork
What about new datatypes? I wish complex and fractions, e.g.
2/3 + 3/5 == 19/15
1i * 1i == -1
 
@giuliolunati There have been a number of wishes registered for more types... things like units for instance. The lexical space is already pretty saturated. You will also find resistance from the Rebol side that there is (for instance) a "64 total type limit" which ties into a certain packing issue for efficiency.
Myself, I think there are diminishing returns to pushing too much harder on the symbol types. In the default evaluator you can say fraction 2 3 which can make an object with a numerator and a denominator, or work in a math dialect that has fractions expressed as 2 / 3 that does not perform the division but keeps things symbolic.
In a broader sense I'd suggest that math be thought of as a "service"; it's being done well by things like WolframAlpha. Trying to twist Rebol or Red too far toward being applied to purposes it's not designed for will likely dilute the parts where it is really good. I have wished for more focus on core language ideas like bignum for integers... to me, having to worry about number size and overflow errors is just one of those timebombs.
 
I understand, thank for your reply.
Actually math may best fix in some extension...
 
12:47 PM
posted on February 27, 2014 by Peter Wood

Hi Andrea Welcome to Red. It looks as though it may be a bug. There are two workarounds: red>> foreach word system/words [print word] datatype! unset! none! logic! block! . . . q script a } red>> or the harder to read: red>> probe system/words [datatype! unset! none! logic! block! string! integ

 
1:30 PM
posted on February 27, 2014 by Peter Wood

Hi Andrea I have checked whether this is considered a bug and can confirm that it isn't at this stage. In this early version of red, system/words is a block! not an object! as it is in Rebol. Until this changes, use probe system/words. Regards Peter On 27 Feb 2014, at 19:00, Peter W A Wood wrote

 
2:18 PM
posted on February 27, 2014 by fbou

Hi Ingo, thanks for your mail. It saved me some time. Kind regards, Fabian

 
2:59 PM
posted on February 27, 2014 by be-red

Call function with stdio redirections supported for Linux. This feature comes with a high level binding for Red. See the README file in system/library/call for more information.

 
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 891 so chat away!
 
3:25 PM
@giuliolunati What do you mean?
 
Ehilà @Giuseppe! Italiano? fa' piacere ogni tanto non dover scrivere in inglese...
 
 
1 hour later…
4:54 PM
Sweet, call is getting there!
 
5:30 PM
posted on February 27, 2014 by cyphre

This pull request fixes the regression crash introduced by #156 which caused TEXT type decoding operation non-functional. It also fixes the crash when encoding image using PNG codec. Here is a link to Gist that includes all basic DO-CODEC tests for possible reveal of regression: https://gist.github.com/cyphre/9254624

 
 
1 hour later…
6:58 PM
Welcome to the Rebol and Red room. See our FAQ. Cool, you have a reputation score of 3157 so chat away!
 
7:34 PM
posted on February 27, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] Note: I am working on an implementation of this and #1882, with this behavior: >> do reduce [:some-word-or-path-value] be treated the same as this: >> do :some-word-or-path-value Coming soon.

posted on February 27, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] Note: I am working on an implementation of this and #1881, with this behavior: >> do reduce [:some-word-or-path-value] be treated the same as this: >> do :some-word-or-path-value Coming soon.

 
The other way around (comments updated), but yeah, working on more of @Ladislav's requests.
 
@BrianH Nice. Agree with you on the test statements; the diffing approach is a lot of added hassle when "pending" would be fine. Pending should run the test anyway, and then if it succeeds let you know.
 
7:50 PM
And "pending" only makes sense if it can be differently pending on Rebol 3 vs Red, for instance, due to their implementation plans not being in lock-step.
But we need to consider how to indicate to a CI server that the tests failed. Probably means a return code.
And one of the sets of upcoming fixes affects the implementation of test harnesses, so we need to move the tests into the rebol/rebol repo before those go through, so the test harness itself can be updated at the same time.
 
My issue with Cyphre's complaint is that it seems to suggest that people can only submit code if they have not only found the source of a problem & run the test suite, but also must design entire tests for the undocumented subsystem they don't themselves use and cannot read about. How does one make a small step forward, or suggestion, if that is the requirement to submit something for review? Why does the person who locates an issue have to bear the entirety of the process alone, before review?
I'll agree it's more a problem of the integrator having to use judgment about whether they think tests cover it. I'd interpreted Ladislav's statement as "can you make a test to prove that in the future memory doesn't leak", not realizing that the real statement was "no tests exist for the codec system, so if you're going to submit any changes you also have to write all those nonexisting tests".
 
Well, if you have CI-run tests then the contributor (or someone helping them) will have to make them pass just to get the contribution in, as an enforced policy. It's a help to the reviewer, but unless it's mandatory and built in then it's not really a policy.
@HostileFork there is a critical module fix that's been sitting there for a year because someone complained about there not being any tests for it in the test suite, when the test suite can't even run those types of tests.
It can't run the tests that Cyphre provided for that codec fix either, for the same reason.
 
My change looks sensible and symmetrical. I located where a seeming contract of who allocates and who frees what was, and did what I thought made sense. His fix is asymmetrical and I don't see a comment explaining the memory allocation issues for why it is that CODI_TEXT doesn't have to free the buffer. In my world of development, such asymmetries are not fixes if they're not explained.
Oh I take it back, it is explained, looking at the wrong thing.
 
@HostileFork well, it's not that weird in this case, actually. The data processed by DECODE is always binary, and generates data which is always not binary. Vice-versa for ENCODE. The whole thing is asymmetrical.
 
Anyway, point is, there was no comment there before. I was the one who added the comments and the notice of where to go look at the free sites. He later expanded that, which is good. I'm just saying: where was he five months ago, and why is process and what people are doing only important if something that you use breaks?
 
8:04 PM
Let's not dwell on the past, let's just use this as an excuse to push for CI testing of PRs.
 
Well, I'm only dwelling because of the meta-point of what it means for how to take suggestions or ideas from the world at large.
A reasonable-looking change that appears to identify a problem can be submitted without adding enough tests to Rebol to prove the entire thing bug free. Passing the test suite should be a requirement, and this one did. I think that raising the bar higher to even suggest a contribution is not a good idea.
 
@HostileFork Aren't you bit obsessed with his fix? :)
 
@rebolek his fix is fine. The bug is the community response model.
@rebolek did you see the PARSE recursive word workaround demo I made for you?
 
@BrianH Yes, thanks. Unfortunately I haven't time to experiment with it yet. But it looks interesting.
 
Cool. It was entirely too tricky to make that work, but it does illustrate the (difficult) principle.
 
8:13 PM
I've saved it to play with it later and get better understanding of what's going on there.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:44 PM
I've mentioned before that I'd predicted years before Node.JS the idea of server-side JavaScript taking off so people used the same language...and it was only a matter of time before switching languages was more irritating than any real great benefit of Ruby vs. Python vs. JavaScript. Of the three I probably like JavaScript the least, but the differences are marginal.
So when Node.JS took off I said "ha, told you so!" and then switched one of my projects to it. And I learned that I was both right and wrong. Because almost nothing I thought would work actually does.
So it happened, but...though it happened...I'm not so sure it was such a great idea like I thought it would be. If I'd tried inventing it, I'd probably have quit and gone "nevermind, this sucks" before I did all the stuff they got around to doing.
 
@HostileFork That indeed was unfortunate communication. I'd interpreted Ladislav's comment immediately as "the codec subsystem is not covered by tests so far, can you please help in adding a few" and not as specifically testing for the memory leak you tried to fix.
We don't have the test suite coverage we'd like to have, so for now some areas are more amenable to "easy fixes" than overs. Obvious in hindsight, this is more clear for those of us regularly working with the test-suite.
I don't think the point to take away from this is to make it harder to submit potential solutions.
But rather: talk to each other more, and come help with test coverage.
 
9:59 PM
Re the pending: the current diffing is actually way more flexible than a pending flag.
We thought about that originally (well, I suggested to do it that way), but then Ladislav instead came up with the diffing system and it has worked out pretty well so far.
 
Having a diff tool can have advantages I imagine. But I'm not certain how having a "successful" test run return anything other than 0 errors is advantageous. How is it?
 
I'm not sure I understand the question.
 
@earl fine, but my point about that was that the tests need to be runnable by a CI like Travis, and indicate that a PR shouldn't be merged. And if any changes are needed to the tests that are specifically related to the PR, they need to be included with the PR. Is this possible with the current test harness?
 
A "successful" test run in this case is always a "successful" regression test, which is successful whenever it includes no regressions and only regressions.
 
Hmm, someone was talking about types earlier, couldn't you just create an OBJECT with a type field and then have a dialect that knows how to operate on those types of objects?
 
10:03 PM
@BrianH Tests are runnable with a CI system, that's mainly a matter of setting it up. Including test changes specific to a given PR is also already doable by the current system.
 
@earl good. How soon can we set this up? I mean days. I have changes on my list that require corresponding test changes.
 
@BrianH Right now. PR of the changes against the test suite.
 
@earl I mean a PR to rebol/rebol. Or rebolsource, if we need to test things.
 
@BrianH Right. Actual change against rebol/rebol, test changes against rebolsource/rebol-test.
 
@earl no, I mean one PR with changes to both.
 
10:07 PM
@AnthonyMichaelCook Well, what the dialect would generally get as input would be words and blocks and such... not "object literals". So that would tend to work if your dialect was evaluating the word (with GET) to find out it is an object, and then go from there. But that won't help you with nice source notations.
 
@BrianH No the way it currently works, they currently don't have to be coupled.
 
@earl can I couple them? I mean, having a PR to rebol/rebol automatically built and tested, and if any of the supposed-to-pass tests fail, the PR marked as bad? And if any test changes need to go with the PR, they will need to be coupled with or included in the PR?
 
@RebolBot delete
 
@BrianH No, you can't, currently. Two different repositories.
Let me explain a bit: if you have semantic changes that are already agreed, you can apply them in the test suite right away. You don't have to wait for the actual fix to be ready.
 
@RebolBot
fraction: function [numerator [integer!] denominator [integer!]] [
    make object! compose [
        type: 'fraction
        numerator: (numerator)
        denominator: (denominator)
    ]
]
probe fraction 10 20
 
10:10 PM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
make object! [
    type: 'fraction
    numerator: 10
    denominator: 20
]
== RESULT is an object of value:
   type            word!     fraction
   numerator       integer!  10
   denominator     integer!  20
 
When you then submit the actual fix, these changes will be marked as progressions. So no regressions, no blocked PR.
 
I need to be able to make PRs for stuff that would be expected to fail now, with the current test suite, but which implement changes that are correct, and thus would need corresponding and coupled changes to the test suite. The tests are correct for the current rebol, but rebol itself is being changed so these tests would need to be different with the new rebol of the PR.
 
Yes, I understand. And as I said, that's fine.
You just have to shift your thinking a bit. These changed tests would fail with current Rebol, but that's not a problem.
 
OK, so I should start by making PRs for the test suite with the new behavior? Because these include some pretty comprehensive semantic changes in one particular case (less-than-one PICK/POKE indexing), and in another particular case would require a rewrite of part of the test harness itself.
 
@BrianH Yes.
But just to be sure: I'm not sure how much of the "indexing debate" is really fought out already.
Btw, regarding the indexing debate: I hope errors for pick/poke/paths with index 0 are also part of the deal, right?
@RebolBot do/2
pick [] 0
 
10:16 PM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== none
 
@BrianH What's that "other particular case", btw?
 
@earl it was already agreed to. But that agreement happened a long enough time ago that some people seem to have forgotten what they agreed to. It was really the absolute first priority to get done last year, but I got busy, so now it's the first priority for right now.
 
@BrianH Well, in my memory it was agreement between a few people that we have a pretty solid compromise that still needs to be documented, published, and more widely agreed upon.
I'm not sure, for example, of Ladislav's views on the compromise.
 
@earl issue.cc/r3/1518 - it would require the new function to use in the test harness.
@earl "we have a pretty solid compromise that still needs to be documented, published, and more widely agreed upon" and implemented. The compromise wasn't implemented.
 
@BrianH Certainly. I favour working code myself, but still: agreed upon and implemented. In whatever order.
 
10:22 PM
@earl pushing for issue.cc/r3/613 was what I agreed to do for Ladislav, in return for changing PICK, POKE and path access to match Red's numbering.
 
Just for the record, here's my memory of the 4 elements of the compromise:
1. Non-contiguous ordinal indexing ("1-based") with zero hole for paths, pick, poke, index? ("like R2")
2. Contiguous offset indexing ("0-based") with pickz, pokez, indexz?
3. "Backwards" ordinal accessors: first-back, second-back, third-back
4. Errors upon falling into the zero hole (pick [] 0 --> error!)
3
Heh. See, there's a writeup. Could've done that sooner :)
 
@earl Sounds good to me. Thanks for reminding me of 4. I already put in a PR for 3.
 
@BrianH Saw that, yes.
With that in place, we can most likely also finish porting Red to R3.
 
I can work on 2 next, then a 1+4 combo.
 
Getting that in would be a big help in the Red Rebol3 port, as messing with the indexing really bothered @DocKimbel
 
10:25 PM
@earl already put in the fix for the other blocker on that, the hash collision bug.
The inability to compile Red on Android itself has really been annoying me. Porting the existing compiler to Rebol 3 would help.
 
@BrianH Absolutely
 
posted on February 27, 2014 by abolka

[Issue] Rebol 2, Rebol 3, and Red currently all use slightly differing indexing models -- the stuff that underlies how path-based indexing, pick, poke, index? work. Under much sweat and tears, this issue was intensely and extensively debated on the REBOL4 AltME world during Nov 2012. Without trying to summarise or even repeat the argument here, none of the two prominent positions could reach c

 
There, put the brief summary above in CC ticket as well.
We can refine that moving forward.
 
10:46 PM
Cool. I added a comment which pointed out that the bounds model was another issue. That should keep this constrained.
 
@giuliolunati Among people who would be very happy to see the Red port picked back up would be... me, because I invested weeks into that.
 
@BrianH Very good.
 
posted on February 27, 2014 by BrianH

[Comment] Note: The bounds checking changes introduced in Rebol 3 (first "" == none rather than triggering an error) are pointedly not part of this compromise. If we need to tweak those, that's a separate debate that hasn't happened yet (though Ladislav and I discussed some ideas a while ago, to no conclusion yet). This is just about the overall indexing model(s).

 
@BrianH Continuing the "even if it's just one function it's better than nothing", I think the R3/Backward library should be started and find a home. I stuck some routines into an R2-forward on the pull request and can be a start for reviewing what's needed.
This is extremely confusing. It would be 1000x better to have only the context way of create an object, maybe renaming context to object and erase original object. — 7hi4g0 42 mins ago
 
@HostileFork The module changes mentioned in those recent tickets need to go in first. There are some changes that aren't easy to accomplish yet with the current model. It's a matter of applying the right overrides.
 
10:55 PM
Is there really a reason to have CONTEXT and OBJECT instead of just OBJECT?
It is the "Relative-Expression-Based Object Language", after all. What's with the need for a new word?
 
@HostileFork context is only there for backwards compatibility. The plan is to use object going forward, but the semantics of object haven't really been finalized yet, so it's a placeholder. I wrote an SO answer to this effect last year too.
 
@BrianH Ah. Well if you can find it, perhaps you want to reply to that comment.
I personally think object [a: b: c:] should be invalid, so it seems object should just act like context does now.
 
2
A: Why are the 'context' and 'object' functions in Rebol different, but essentially the same?

BrianHBackwards compatibility. We had a context function already in Rebol that worked a particular way (not initializing variables), but we needed a function that initialized variables to none, as a convenience function when creating objects as data structures rather than as code containers. It made ...

@HostileFork reply to the comment where?
 
@BrianH If you onebox a comment, the time (42 mins ago, above) is a hyperlink to the comment in context.
 
@HostileFork we still need a function that initializes these words to none. Add a better way to do that (like a construct option) and then we can change it (after the code using it has been changed).
 
11:02 PM
@BrianH Can you motivate the need for the none version with an example?
 
@HostileFork using objects as data structures rather than as code containers.
 
object/construct [a: b: c:] is longer than object [a: b: c: none], for instance.
 
@RebolBot
construct [a: b: c:]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               none!     none
   b               none!     none
   c               none!     none
 
Well that suggests the none isn't needed at all. :-/ I feel that's a bit unfortunate in as much as if you're using it as a code-container you do want the error.
 
11:05 PM
@HostileFork No, that was to point out that the CONSTRUCT Brian meant is an actual word that exists.
 
@earl There you go. @HostileFork make a ticket to make object call construct rather than modifying the spec and calling make object!.
 
@earl Oh, I misread that as CONTEXT. I've never heard of construct.
 
@BrianH Not sure if we want OBJECT to really do that. Would make OBJECT useless for actually creating objects with functions.
 
posted on February 27, 2014 by Nenad Rakocevic

Hi Andrea, You can also use the recently added HELP and WHAT functions from the latest Red builds. Cheers, -- Nenad

 
@HostileFork it's a really safe replacement for make object!, particularly useful for header processing.
 
11:08 PM
I'd think object [... none] is a fine pattern for whatever the variant is supposed to mean, as it's comprehensible. ("Whatever ... is, if it ends with a set word, throw a none in there. If it doesn't, throw none in there anyway.") Making up a new word for that seems pointless as it is best understood as just that.
 
@earl well, we can just use construct for the originally intended purpose of object, then just make object do the same as context does now.
 
Though I guess if you had a block you wanted to reuse for other purposes in a variable, not having to modify it has some advantage.
 
@BrianH Would have to know more about the originally intended purpose of object to answer that. As you surely know, CONSTRUCT does not even work when I want to initialise a field with the value from another word.
@RebolBot
x: 1
construct [a: x b: 2]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               word!     x
   b               integer!  2
 
(Just for the benefit of others following this discussion who are not intimately aware of CONSTRUCT.)
 
11:12 PM
@RebolBot
print "The original purpose of object:"
construct [a: b: c:]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
The original purpose of object:
== RESULT is an object of value:
   a               none!     none
   b               none!     none
   c               none!     none
 
Well :)
 
That's it. Carl added it to make the R3-GUI code look nicer.
 
If it's really just for this particular shortcut eval, then: right :)
 
0
A: How do I use collect keep in parse, to get embedded blocks?

draegtunYou can make it work by nesting COLLECT. For e.g. parse data [ collect [ some [ collect [ keep some c #"-" keep some c ] #"*" collect [ keep some c #"-" ...

 
11:19 PM
@BrianH From your SO answer: we needed a function that initialized variables to none, as a convenience function when creating objects as data structures rather than as code containers. This statement highlights my disappointment with the fuzzy datatype object has become in Rebol3. Again, if you just want to store data with no functions, why use objects when blocks and maps are available?
 
@DocKimbel it depends on whether you need the constraints of objects, or the advantages. When blocks or maps are better we use those.
 
@BrianH Do you have some use-cases where objects are a better choice for storing data than the other two?
 
@DocKimbel but we've not finished with object yet. Carl has still mentioned he has the idea to make it possible for objects to have more featureful specs (access constraints, datatypes and such), and maybe even real methods. The debate about that still needs to happen though.
 
@DocKimbel Other issues aside: Do you sense a strong reason to have a distinction between CONTEXT and OBJECT? It seems to confuse matters for people. If you are using it as a code container then ending in a set-word! should be an error... but I'm not understanding why object creation would not want the same constraint.
 
@HostileFork I thought object was just an alias for context until today. :-)
 
11:31 PM
Just for the record, I do have an agenda. Thought I'd better point that out.
 
posted on February 27, 2014 by BrianH

[Wish] OBJECT was originally added to make code like this work: >> object [a: b:] == make object! [ a: none b: none ] Just a simple way to declare objects that are used as data structures, rather than code organization. The way it does this is to modify the spec (appending none) and calling MAKE OBJECT!, which *again* modifies the spec. However, CONSTRUCT does the same thing: >> const

 
@DocKimbel the main useful difference is that for objects, the presence of a key matters, and for maps, it doesn't. There are certain things that you can do with a data structure when the presence of a key in that structure is something that matters, and more that you can do when you can't remove keys. Binding is just one example, there are many other processes that are built on similar constraints.
 
@DocKimbel If only map! was useful as a real datastructure ... :/
(Yes, yes, I saw the recently rekindled interest in strict-map!.)
 
And the proposed change in semantics, I hope.
Weirdly enough, map! has turned out to be good for referring to code as well, in cases where it's important that the presence of a key in the structure not matter. Turns out to be useful for optionally-defined code (such as event handlers).
 
@BrianH map! is useful for a lot of other peripheral things, just not as a hashed datastructure for external data.
 
11:44 PM
@earl ... if the external data has case-sensitive keys, or when the presence of none values matters. But because of JSON, that's a common case now, agreed.
 
@BrianH Right. One of the primary issues about external data is that's it external: I can't fully control it.
Sometimes I have the luxury of being able to assert that it really always is case-insensitive.
Most of the time, I do not.
 
@earl That is the case for all sorts of external data, not just JSON-like stuff. The main reason we want to have built-in support for JSON-like semantics is because they are popular and common. We don't have direct support for XML-like semantics either, but no language does except for Potion and the direct XML-derived ones.
 
Be careful with the "no language" claims.
But in this particular case, case sensitivity is in general not uncommon. The popularity of JSON is another strong factor, granted.
 
@earl right, just of the publicly released or documented ones. I checked.
 
@BrianH What's "XML-like semantics", then?
 
11:49 PM
@BrianH What would that even be though—most languages load XML as a tree/object and have an API to access it.
Snap.
 
Most languages that process XML translate it to a semantic model that they support, but they don't support the XML model directly in any of their native datatypes. To do that, you need to have something that has both a key-value mapping (like our objects) and series-like contents that is a separate thing than those keys, not accessed through any of them. We have series, we have objects, but we don't have a cross between the two. No OOP language does except for Potion.
And aside from Potion, I don't see the point in adding it because XML kinda sucks. JSON semantics is taking over for good reasons.
 
@BrianH So you mean something where the key 0 (an integer) and the position 0 can point to different values?
 
@earl yup.
 
@BrianH Do keys also need to have an ordering?
 
But unlike JSON semantics, it's perfectly acceptable to fake it with XML. Everyone else does, that's part of why it sucks.
@earl don't know, but they do in XML and Potion. I think the ordering isn't supposed to matter, but still exists. Like objects.
 
11:59 PM
@BrianH So you also have a non-uniform API for access to values then. Because you have to say if you want to access by key or by position, right?
 

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