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2:00 PM
PhD in Horribleness
@rightfold and Haskell in the browser :3
 
user1804599
No.
 
@CatPlusPlus MSc doesn't include research at your university?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum ha ha ha
 
user1804599
LiveScript.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ?
 
2:01 PM
I don't understand what this guy is trying to tell me:
@AndyProwl I don't agree with you: a->b, a ⊢ ¬(a->b). Are you sure? (R ≡ a->b; a ≡ "property P"; b ≡ "the program is ill-formed") If a->b ∧ a, the only thing you can say is b and no more. — Peregring-lk 2 hours ago
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum at least on our uni it's just fucking 1.5 year more of the same bullshit and nothing new researched
 
@BartekBanachewicz that sounds really shitty. That's not what we have here at all.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum our uni is really shitty
 
@BartekBanachewicz you really don't have to do your master's the same place you got your bachelor's
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's an exception AFAICT
 
2:05 PM
@AndyProwl what's the point of an MSc if you don't specialize in a field and do research?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah, if you walk into any uni with a credit card, you can do just about anything.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't even have to do BSc in the first place
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't see how that has anything to do with what we're discussing now, but sure.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum It depends on the country. It could be a more formal education that prepares you for a PhD
Without necessarily including research of new stuff
Of course it can "specialize you in a field", but then again that doesn't necessarily mean doing research
 
turning in research paper also doesn't mean that
 
2:11 PM
true, although that's a bit of a different story
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Same crap I did last time
It's something in-between CS and SE I guess
 
between shit and shit
 
I have a degree in something
I have no real idea what it is
This is what happens when you don't use English
 
hehe recruiter that called me tried to translate english terms for me on the fly
I guess her only reason was to make it harder for me to google the company's name
 
@Bartek how did it end up with that senior job?
 
2:14 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't know what it includes
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Your puns are almost as bad as sehe's!
 
@AndyProwl Skype tomorrow's evening
 
Cool
 
user3010322
@BartekBanachewicz 'Grats!
 
"As a college dropout, I'd like to thank my friends and family for making it possible..."
 
2:15 PM
@ThePhD It was a joke based on a then-fixed typo by cosh.
 
@AndyProwl meh, I think research is how you specialize in a field but whatever.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You suck. Real dropouts achieve it through their efforts alone.
 
@ThePhD what are you congratulating me for
 
@BartekBanachewicz Getting to the next step in the interviewing process.
 
user3010322
Uh. Senior Position intervew?
 
2:17 PM
Congratulations, you tried
 
user3010322
What robot aid.
 
I have no idea how, but sometimes I get the impression that @Cat isn't 100% satisfied with his life.
6
 
wait so "having an interview" is next step?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think research is more than just specializing in a field. If you know everything that (more realistically, most of what) is currently state-of-the-art in a field, you can qualify as "specialized in a field". Doing research is more than that. But yeah, points of view.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum lol
 
user3010322
2:17 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes So then the real mastermind is @thecoshman!
 
I had an interview everywhere I've sent my CV ever.
So I got kinda used to it, I guess.
Also remember that they contacted me
Not the opposite.
 
@AndyProwl I guess what I meant to say is: I believe doing research is almost likely the fastest and best way to specialize in a field since in order to do it you have to read a lot of existing research and communicate with people who are experts in the field.
 
user1804599
I think I will use JavaScript both client-side and server-side.
 
@rightfold famous last words
 
@ThePhD indubitably
@rightfold it's a trap!
 
2:20 PM
@rightfold asdf
 
user1804599
I think there will be less duplicate code this way.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I see research as "knowledge + innovation". The "innovation" part is what's not required in order to be "specialized" in a field, and "knowledge" is what an MSc could provide. Just my opinion though.
 
@rightfold which doesn't necessarily mean shorter dev time
 
user1804599
So what?
 
user1804599
Duplicate code is disgusting no matter what.
 
2:22 PM
@rightfold just teasing of course. NodeJS is an acceptable solution in plenty of scenarios, sometimes it's even a good one imo.
 
what is the point of not duplicating code then?
You are not going to maintain it ever anyway, because the repo will get deleted in two days
 
user1804599
Because duplicate code disgusts me.
 
user1804599
And I don’t like to be disgusted.
 
Hmmm.
I cannot test warmup().
It's untestable!
OMG.
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz I cannot improve myself by making a mess, and I will avoid doing that.
 
2:23 PM
@rightfold I think that there are plenty of valid reasons to make server and client code separate
Client models and server models rarely are the same, especially in games.
I know it sounds tempting, but I'd analyze the usecase again to see if it is really feasible in your scenario
 
lol usecase.
Who are you talking to?
 
He's training those buzzwords
 
user1804599
I don’t see how they would not be.
 
user1804599
Especially when adhering to SRP.
 
2:26 PM
I wrote untestable code.
@CatPlusPlus Bee gone.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'd make a class and collaboration UML diagrams using my J2EE tool I got at that methodologies seminar.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't know what you're talking about
 
Me neither
 
Hmm, fuck it.
I don't need to test anything in warmup anyway.
The requirements are too fuzzy.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes usecase of code, duh, where the programmer is the user. Can't it be used that way?
 
2:29 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You're talking to rightfold.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes @rightfold is a competent software developer who pays attention to good design.
 
user1804599
And yet I always figure out a way to fuck things up very badly.
 
@BartekBanachewicz He doesn't pay attention to use cases because he assumes nothing will be used after two hours.
 
Me too!
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I don't know how you'd connect that to java tbh.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't think he assumes that when designing,
 
2:32 PM
Class diagrams are the most useless design tool ever
 
@BartekBanachewicz I was making a funny >:(
 
The fact that it turns out to be a major fuckup almost everytime is a different story
@CatPlusPlus No. UML has way more more useless diagrams
 
user1804599
Class diagrams can be quite useful to make things clear.
 
I failed Software Engineering, I know everything about that.
 
user1804599
Especially at a high level where you only mention class names and relations, but not methods and fields.
 
2:33 PM
That's still too low-level to be useful
 
Well the whole idea of "class diagram" is fucked up
 
user1804599
I agree that making a diagram for every fucking thing is not very useful.
 
Diagrams work for high-level design that's unlikely to change
 
talk about components alright, I agree with @Cat here.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not to sound like an ass but that's usually a good indication you need to test something.
 
2:34 PM
but UML has many diagrams that interfere with the implementation
 
flow chart for HTML!!!
 
Classes are way less important than OOP programmers tend to think
 
user1804599
Tests are more important than production code.
2
 
`int warmup();`
*Effects*: does something magical for at least 100 ms.
*Returns*: a value that might be a good starting number of iterations for estimating clock properties.
@BenjaminGruenbaum I think this one is fine untested ^.
 
I find class diagrams useful to express relations and organization of classes. Not sure what's wrong with them. They can be used at different levels of abstraction.
 
2:35 PM
lol.
 
@rightfold Also I don't use methods.
 
Make only tools always and you'll never be disappointed
 
http://oliveremberton.com/2014/life-is-a-game-this-is-your-strategy-guide/
cooking + dancing + psychology = ladies magnet
 
@AndyProwl the whole idea of designing a system based on a "class" concept is borked
 
@AndyProwl That can be generated from actual code
 
2:36 PM
@CatPlusPlus butt WATERFALL
you CANNOT write code before design
that's FORBIDDEN BY GOD
 
Upfront design should be concerned only with interface boundaries and high-level picture
 
I'm not saying class diagrams should be used for upfront design
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum The requirements are exactly that. It doesn't really matter if the resulting value is always the same or some carefully calculated value. The other functions can cope with any seed for the right amount of iterations, but having a good initial estimate makes it faster to zoom in on useful results.
 
2:36 PM
I often write them to sketch out relations between classes because it helps me keeping track of them better than reading code
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes verify it doesn't return 0 and some abnormally large values then. Don't have to fail the test, can be just a warning
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that function is so random
 
If you use VS Ultimate then it can generate low-level diagrams on the go
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok then.
 
@CatPlusPlus Pro can too IIRC
 
2:38 PM
@CatPlusPlus For C++ too?
 
@AndyProwl the problem with class diagrams isn't their existence, it's useful to have. It's their rigidity and ceremony. I usually just draw a bunch of boxes.
 
@thecoshman It really is. It's the first thing that runs, before anything is known about how the clock behaves, so there are very few useful guarantees that can be made.
 
@AndyProwl yep. Since like 2008 at least
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks again! Today I remembered and it's a nice thing at this time!
 
@AndyProwl Dunno, I don't write C++
 
2:39 PM
I'd prefer well-typed mocks over class diagram anyday anyway
 
That sounds nonsensical.
 
doShit :: ShitA -> ShitB
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes time frame? some sort of range you would expect the returned data to be in?
 
@BartekBanachewicz So say I have a class A with a unique_ptr<B> member, will that make a class diagram with a box for A has an "aggregates" relation to a box for unique_ptr<B>, which has a link to a box for B, or will it directly connect the box for A to the box for B with a stereotype <<unique>> or something like that?
 
Why is this C++ lounge filled with people who do not use C++ as their primary software development tool?
 
2:40 PM
What C++ lounge
 
@thecoshman Result > 0 is pretty much the only thing I can require.
 
@AndyProwl it will probably fuck it up, but you'll get a box with a name on it
maybe for C# it can show aggregation
 
Well ... people were not using C++ even before the name was changed ... to the basket lounge or the gay lounge for that matter
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wow... yeah... I guess this is a fine example of 'unit tests are not the only tool in the box'
 
@AndyProwl isn't a unique_ptr just a black filled diamond in UML?
 
2:40 PM
@BartekBanachewicz But the box itself is not useful
@BenjaminGruenbaum At a certain level of abstraction, yes
 
@thecoshman Even a value that is too large is still valid; it only results in slower execution of the rest. But quantifying "too large" is pretty much impossible.
 
But I doubt VS can parse your code and generate such a UML diagram
 
@AndyProwl that's a good observation.
 
VS doesn't generate UML diagrams, it does generate interactive diagrams though
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, clearly it is not 'too large' if still valid.
 
2:41 PM
If I had to describe what the function does in one line, I'd say: "makes an educated guess about the ideal number of iterations"
 
 
create UML form Javascript /@Benjamin
 
I must admit I'm starting to use Vim much like an IDE ...
 
everything is in a bag
 
@thecoshman It's "too large" if it makes the rest run unnecessarily slower than it needs. The result is used as a seed for pretty much every measurement thereafter.
 
2:42 PM
I think I'm getting to the point where I don't really think vanilla Vim is enough anymore
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes is there some sort of algorithm you can test the logic of? given certain characteristics of a system, it gives you a certain sort of result?
 
Of course, I'd still prefer that to many other environments, but for any significant size project I'm starting to really /use/ the plugins "Thanks @tpope"
 
@BartekBanachewicz ?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Alrighty.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you sound like you are edging over to more high level testing there, you are concerned with how foo will use bar.
 
2:43 PM
@sehe If the symbols for the tree are configurable the line can be made solid.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes does code using it have a high potential to change?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum actually you know what, nope. Untyped code is equally meh in either code form and diagram form.
 
@thecoshman I was trying to give it a fake clock (it's templated on the clock; I forgot to mention), but I cannot design a clock that I can use for the test without depending on the implementation details.
 
@sehe Which ones?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm just going to avoid having that argument again because nothing productive comes out of it ever :D
 
2:45 PM
@LucDanton embarrassed grin: which not :/
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, I guess just don't unit test it. You certainly do not need 100% test coverage.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Nah. Think of it like producing an initial estimate for something like Newton's method (except it always converges if > 0). A poor estimate only results in more iterations of the method, not wrong results. (again, ignoring that Newton's method can have initial estimates that don't converge)
 
Seth.Heeren@Z220-SETH /cygdrive/c/WORK/pocpp
$ cd /cygdrive/z/vimfiles/bundle/

Seth.Heeren@Z220-SETH /cygdrive/z/vimfiles/bundle
$ ls
a.vim      nerdcommenter  vim-characterize  vim-markdown   vim-orgmode  vim-sensible  vim-unimpaired
mediawiki  taglist.vim    vim-fugitive      vim-obsession  vim-repeat   vim-surround  vim-vinegar
 
I’ve actually taken a step back to doing lots of stuff from within Vim in that netrw breaks all my bindings. Need to sort that out.
@sehe In the context, which ones make it IDEish?
 
user1804599
Hmm.
 
2:46 PM
Although I don't use orgmode
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah but I can bash you using this jsdoc thing to annotate types time to time, no?
 
user1804599
Using 20 iterations instead of 200 for PBKDF2 in the unit tests actually reduced the total time from four seconds to one second, instead of to three seconds.
 
@LucDanton I just started using vim-vinegar and that just gave it the edge, weaving in and out of files from browsing the project structure. So much better than VS :{
 
@BartekBanachewicz I have no idea why you'd consider the underlying language here as relevant to the diagrams anyway.
 
user1804599
I wonder what the difference would be with a single iteration.
 
2:47 PM
@rightfold You lied yesterday
@rightfold Security
 
user1804599
lol
 
Okay. Sure hope those binding will be fun.
 
@sehe Sorry for staring the post with your name but I might want that list later
 
@BartekBanachewicz no problem. I posted it :)
 
user1804599
@sehe We obviously use a different number of iterations in production.
 
user1804599
2:48 PM
Around 12000, but that is way too many for the unit tests.
 
@BartekBanachewicz His name was no secret.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Anyways, the list is in tpope's github account, basically
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I knew it, obviously. Still.
@sehe heh. The guy is nice.
 
tpope is a hero.
 
But my favorite GH person ever is Anton now anyway
 
2:49 PM
My habit of using struct instead of class leads to accidental private inheritance when I'm actually using a class. If that class is an exception class it inherits std::exception privately and does not get caught. std::terminate.
 
@rightfold Assuming that it is used for password hashing, why the choice of pbkdf2 over bcrypt?
 
hey @valderman you're awesome
just wanting you to know.
 
His Twitter account clearly documents his lost sanity due to VimL exposure, but he's great.
Sacrificing himself for the greater good.
 
user1804599
@NikiC dunno, just picked PBKDF2 vOv
 
@NikiC Less pronounceability.
 
user1804599
2:50 PM
There is no specific reason for it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I wonder why plugins aren't made in Lua or Python really
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's a big plus, of course
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not as portable.
 
Lua is builtin by default right?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Only on builds that include it.
 
2:50 PM
Come on, you could literally ship Lua binaries with plugins, they are so small
 
VimL is always there.
 
but VimL is insane and Lua is pleasant
 
I'm sure tpope explained his reasons somewhere, btw.
 
okey Imma look at this bug and go home
fuck it I am not staying here up to 8pm again
 
@sehe I know I have some of them ‘just in case’. Of course it’s not very clear in case of what? Certainly not in case I run out of things I have yet to try / incorporate / master when it comes to vimming.
 
2:52 PM
PLZ leave link
@R.MartinhoFernandes I would be interested in reading that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think I read it in something linked from one of his many repos. If I find it I'll link it.
 
Or maybe it was on Twitter.
 
> Bug reports against this feature are highly appreciated. While the user-facing interface is type safe, any function depending on unsafeCoerce makes me nervous, and export uses it in no less than three places.
yeah that's what you get when interfacing with JS, sadly :S
 
user1804599
JavaSad
 
2:57 PM
Ah, @BartekBanachewicz I think it was this stevelosh.com/blog/2011/09/writing-vim-plugins/… (not tpope after all, but sjl)
 
hm okay there's this HP HD webcam
and it's dirt cheap
 
I need a way to prevent flooding in my logging library.
 

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