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user3010322
5:00 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, the better way would be to get the last active window (where the mouse last was or what the last active window's screen was).
 
@JerryCoffin I'm assuming that's what it takes to count such a call as a success.
 
user3010322
^ Raymond CHen has the same ideas as me, yaay. <3
 
user3010322
<validation-by-authority/>
 
@ThePhD No, that's also annoying.
 
user3010322
5:01 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes So... where do you want your window to go then?
 
Don't worry, no system does this right :(
 
user3010322
Where it last appeared?
 
user3010322
Like, how do you impart the intent of where you want your window to pop up? D:
 
user3010322
Do you just say "where there's the most empty space" ?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is there even a "right" way?
 
user3010322
5:02 PM
I mean, I have a Rectangle Bin Packer. I could get all the screens and divide them into free-space and taken-space squares and then find a suitable one for the next screen to occupy,
 
user3010322
but that's a lot of goddamn work just to have a window appear somewhere. :c
 
@Xeo Dunno. I know that it is annoying everywhere. The only consolation is that the benefits outweigh those annoyances.
 
user3010322
My next best guess is a drag-drop approach, where you double-click and hold and then drag the application to a certain point on your desktop to tell the application "if you make a window, open it here"
 
Applications should not be picking where to show up, anyway.
 
user3010322
After that, all other approaches are cumbersome or lame. :c
 
zch
5:04 PM
Ubuntu appears to open them where the mouse is. Seems ok to me.
 
@ThePhD A lot of work that, being somewhere, should be in the window manager, not the applications.
 
zch
Although not always.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... this had to be stated?
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Shouldn't something like xmonad allow you to configure that?
 
@thecoshman ikr
 
user3010322
5:05 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What happens in the case of borderless windows that occupy the full screen and then another window comes up?
 
user3010322
Does the window manager just throw it's hands up and then picks a spot somewhere on the screen?
 
@ThePhD All my Windows apps show in the centre of screen 0 upon first run. The user can then resize and move them as they wish. When the app is shut down, it saves its size/posn etc. and returns there when run again.
 
@ThePhD They ask to occupy the full screen.
 
@ThePhD 99% of the time, applications should give no more than a hint as to where they would like to go.
@R.MartinhoFernandes ikr? I know right?
 
@thecoshman Yes.
 
5:06 PM
@ThePhD it hopes that the window manager realise that a window of the same size as the screen should probably go at (0,0)
 
user3010322
I meant for the next windows after that.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes note 'full screen borderless window' is not the same as 'full screen'
 
Windows can stack on each other, you know.
 
I think another use of manipulators could be colors.
 
@ThePhD ... anywhere they like, probably 'closer to the user' (depth)
 
5:08 PM
Would you overload a ostream<<(Type) to do this?
 
user3010322
Yes, they can, but then you get into layering and other things. What's the optimal layering and layout of windows? Is what's optimal for this person optimal for that person?
 
@Pawnguy7 You can do that if there's a terminal with support for ANSI escapes and stuff like that by simply generating the right strings.
 
user3010322
How many layers? How many stacks of windows?
 
@ThePhD "Is what's optimal for this person optimal for that person?" Good question. Do you think applications should pick that?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes. Far as I am aware, that is not available on windows.
 
5:09 PM
I rest my case.
@ThePhD That's what window managers are for.
It's their bread and butter.
 
how do you even write for a decimal machine? This stuff looks completely foreign already
 
try jumping
 
@Crowz You don't (at least not in C or C++, which both require binary machines).
 
@JerryCoffin Assembly
 
@Pawnguy7 Without it, you can't do it with cout. Streams and terminals are not the same thing, only vaguely related.
 
user3010322
5:10 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is it at all reasonable to ask the window manager to anticipate that?
 
@ThePhD It's the reason it exists vOv
 
user3010322
Well. Guess I know what my Window Manager will be like when I sneak my way into Windows HQ.
 
Xeo
Also, Robot, stop throwing around the word "manager". It meakes me feel uneasy when you do that.
 
user3010322
WindowMaker
 
user3010322
5:11 PM
s/n//
 
@ThePhD Somehow just knew that was coming.
 
@ThePhD WindowMaker is actually the name of a window manager.
 
user3010322
For halloween, my Window Maker would do spooky things
 
user3010322
Like have the 'n' flicker off and the text go red at some random point once.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, yes. Basically what I am asking is, if I can stick any value if I overload the operator. I don't do much operator overloading, so I wasn't sure. If you can, you can theoretically run any function at that point, including setting the colors for the next characters on the terminal.
 
5:13 PM
@ThePhD A window manager that can't do window placement (no matter how primitive) is not a window manager.
 
user3010322
Well, it does to window placement.
 
user3010322
.... Lazily.
 
hehe manager
 
user3010322
I want to make a Window Manager, at least for my own application.
 
user3010322
But now Robot's got me all fired up.
 
user3010322
5:14 PM
I'll implement it with Snake~
 
ideally wm should remember when app's windows were and open them then
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus @MartinJames did that, and I like that idea too.
 
That's a good start. But when the applications have to do that, that's bullshit.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Wait, "when"? "then"?
 
5:15 PM
@Xeo I think he did it on purpose.
 
Xeo
I had a feeling.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why - the users like different apps laid out in different ways.
 
ill let you on in a secret
i mistyped 'where' but decided to just roll with it
 
The users can interact with the window manager.
 
5:16 PM
maaan. when do I get to be a good programmer?
 
And when they do, they get the functionality for every application, accessible in the same easy and consistent manner.
 
never
@R.MartinhoFernandes and not broken
i saw an ms app open in the middle of two screens because it centered itself on a virtual desktop
 
@ThePhD hm?
 
But yeah, maybe on Windows you're pretty much fucked and every application has to reinvent that.
 
cat plus plus why doth thou torment me so?
 
5:17 PM
@Crowz Apps are like paintings - the developer has to be dead before they are appreciated:)
 
user3010322
I thought that
 
im the spirit of vodka future
 
user3010322
Windows naturally spawned a window in its last known position
 
user3010322
unless you specifically disabled that
 
@ThePhD a window manager is a HUGE undertaking, and not at all what an application should concern itself with. Do you really want your application to have to think about everything a WM has to think about?
 
5:18 PM
it might if you put right arguments into createwindowexexeexexexeexex
but a lot of apps think theyre cleverer
 
user3010322
VS remembers, calculator remembers, Snippet Tool remembers...
 
and explicit positioning for some inexplicable reason overrides wm instead of being a hint
 
@ThePhD they can provide hints to the WM, but that is all it is.
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus You have to remember Windows used child windows for controls.
 
@thecoshman On Windows? I'm pretty sure they always get the last word.
 
5:19 PM
you ask nicely for the WM to do stuff, you NEVER tell it what yto do.
 
user3010322
So exact positioning was kind of necessary.
 
child windows are not managed by wm
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes maybe...
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus They're not, they're managed by the application, so you had to specify your own explicit offsets and layout.
 
@ThePhD I don't know much about Windows programming, but I know they have the concept of top-level windows, so that's irrelevant.
 
5:20 PM
i dont know what you think is a problem
 
@MartinJames but my apps are lame
 
it should be a hint to wm for toplevels and can be explicit all the way it want for children
 
user3010322
True, windows does have a flag to say it's a child window.
 
user3010322
Still, you can totally break the system by having an invisible parent window and then make a child one that is explicitly positioned. :v
 
whats breaking about it
 
5:21 PM
@ThePhD You can't, because you can't draw it outside the parent, can you?
 
@ThePhD sure you can, many system can be broken. But they work better when you follow the 'rules'
 
invisible things dont need to be positioned at all
 
top levels windows should not say where they Have to be
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, IIRC
 
user3010322
It's breaking that the toplevel window can only hint at it's position, but the child window can just specify an offset and a size completely outside the parent and show up.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Make the parent fill the screen
 
user3010322
5:22 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Uh. I hope not. I have no idea though. :D
 
@ThePhD thats silly
besides no, because it'd inherit the invisibility
 
Xeo
That's what the little pretty-popup I have for foobar does
 
@ThePhD Would it show up? I thought that's what DCs are for.
 
alright... assembly... iterating through an array, how the hell is this shit done?
 
carefully
 
5:23 PM
@Xeo Oh gosh, what a hack.
 
Xeo
... I think, anyways
 
user3010322
@Xeo Foobar ♡♡
 
Xeo
s/♡/♥/g
 
user3010322
@Xeo Some port of a window simulator for Unix in windows did that too.
 
Anyway, if your point is that the Windows window manager sucks, I won't argue against it.
 
5:23 PM
@Xeo why would it
 
@ThePhD do you deliberately go looking for conventions to break?
 
My customers are quite happy with apps whose windows, (all of them, main, child), have a position and size that is persistent across sessions. I don't want some 3rd-party window manager moving them around after a user has set them up as he/she wants them.
 
Xeo
@ThePhD Unity Mode in VMware Player also seems like it does that
 
theres no 3rd party wm
 
9 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
The users can interact with the window manager.
 
5:24 PM
theres always exactly one wm
unity mode is funny because it creates taskbar items for invisible windows on the guest
or toolbars or whatever
 
user3010322
Parallel's Desktop did something like that too.
 
tooltips
 
user3010322
Crystal mode or w/e.
 
If they have a 3rd-party window manager, they put it there.
 
user3010322
@melak47 AHAAAA
 
5:26 PM
@MartinJames While you've started in the right direction, doing this really well is tricky. Just for example, do you account for the possibility that the user disconnected a monitor, so the previous position is no longer valid? A decent window manager will, but a lot of apps that remember their previous position don't.
 
user3010322
I FOUND WHY THE VECTOR WAS TRYING TO MAKE A COPY
 
because you copied it?
 
@ThePhD ...and at the same time apparently lost control of you caps lock key?
 
because your compiler is garbage?
he stole my shift
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus Yes. I used auto and forgot to qualify it with &. =[
 
5:27 PM
@JerryCoffin Yes - if that happened, the relevant windows would be off-screen/s.
 
Xeo
@ThePhD ...
 
@MartinJames see thats broken
 
user3010322
C# var has spoiled me rotten.
 
Pressing Caps Lock while focused on this textbox removes all text from it :P
 
and why apps shouldn't be trusted to do this
 
5:28 PM
@ThePhD Heh, I was just thinking that. :)
 
Xeo
@ThePhD s/var/reference semantics/
 
@ThePhD Back not long ago and starbaiting already?
 
explicit toplevel positioning should not be left to app responsibility
 
@CatPlusPlus Fixed in documentation:)
 
no its as broken as my mind
 
user3010322
5:28 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes It wasn't really starbait, but people star things I say and I feel bad to edit them, because if I do it's like going back on my words / integrity. :c
 
user3010322
There's really only one star on it, though, so if people remove it, I can edit it / remove it.
 
@CatPlusPlus It's what my customers want. What can I say?
 
user3010322
... Wait, actually. If I remove a starred word, what happens to the starboard?
 
user3010322
WHOOA
 
user3010322
It nukes it from the starboard!
 
Xeo
5:30 PM
well d'uh
 
user3010322
That's OP.
 
Xeo
No, it's not-broken
 
user3010322
Well, I know what I'm doing if something bad I say gets more than a few stars. :3c
 
If you have a reason to delete it, why would you want it to remain on the starboard?
 
5:31 PM
@CatPlusPlus While I agree in principle, I should add one point: although in theory I favor a window manager doing the job, in actual fact, every window manager I've ever seen has fucked things up even worse than most Windows apps do. Windows apps fuck up in strange situations like removing a monitor. Most X window managers fuck up all the time, under even the simplest of circumstances.
 
well thats another story
but one wm is easier to fix than 1000 apps
 
Xeo
@ThePhD Remember, remember, the ... 2 minutes of SO chat
 
@MartinJames 'my customers are dumb'
 
The default one doesn't fuck up!
 
@CatPlusPlus Dog bites man..
 
user3010322
^ Turns out Windows actually DOES remember its window positions
 
It gives you the responsibility of fucking up on your own.
 
user3010322
It had a bug for login, though.
 
thats not the issue
the issue is apps being able to override it
 
user3010322
The app should be able to override it if the app feels like it. If the app does it and it's not necessary, don't pay that person money for their development. :3c
 
5:34 PM
Next up: want to be topmostest.
 
It's like focus stealing
Everyone thinks their app is the bestest
 
Xeo
hocus focus
 
> I am astounded that MS is so maliciously obtuse not to comprehend that some of us don't want our explorer windows changing (ever ).
AHAHAHA
Microsoft's secret and totally intentional and malicious plan: Screw over all our users by FORGETTING THEIR WINDOW LOCATIONS.
we'll make all the profit off their screams of terror!
 
Xeo
Now that you've written about it, they'll have to change it
 
@DeadMG Monsters Inc. is real, and paying them kick-backs!
 
Xeo
5:36 PM
Not much of a secret plan anymore
 
My window position OCD
 
user3010322
This is all just UX design. Honestly, in order to steal focus and set the window position explicitly, you have to explicitly code it in. By default, the window manager will place your window and it naturally remembers the last space (in Windows. Don't know what XWindow or how Mac OSX's window manager handles it). So the only people who suck are the individuals who actually explicitly set their window position, when they never have to ever in the first place.
 
Xeo
WM sucks for allowing you to override it
 
36 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Don't worry, no system does this right :(
I said it first :)
 
user3010322
Shrug. There's a use case for it, like when you have multiple windows that may or may not be parent-child. :c
 
5:38 PM
Uh so the fact that you have to code it makes it okay?
Focus stealing is never okay
 
@ThePhD That's... not a use case.
 
Fuck your focus stealing shit
 
It doesn't need this silly thing.
 
I don't even care about developer woes
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus I should totally make a chat app that steals focus at precisely the moment you start to type your password somewhere else.
 
5:39 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, sort of. My point was less "nobody does it right", than "even though a window manager is better in theory, it's usually worse in practice."
 
27 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
hehe manager
empty quoting
 
Xeo
29 mins ago, by Xeo
Also, Robot, stop throwing around the word "manager". It meakes me feel uneasy when you do that.
winrar
 
?? Displaying an incoming chat message does not require stealing focus. If any app did that, I would immediately uninstall it, as I'm sure most others would.
 
@Xeo I guess it's okay since you have to code it
 
@ThePhD The use case for it would be when your app can tell better than the user where the user wants your app to be. Good luck finding it.
 
5:42 PM
Nothing requires stealing focus
Every app stealing focus is broken by design
 
Stealing focus on Windows doesn't steal focus, though. Just blink the taskbar, no?
 
Xeo
Honestly, hocus-focus is the worst
 
It's supposed to, I think, but it doesn't work very well
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's what it does now, I think
 
user3010322
There are times when I want something like a new window or a toolwindow to be given focus.
 
5:43 PM
I still randomly lose focus for random reasons
 
@ThePhD You can change focus freely within your application.
You're not stealing anything.
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Stupid taskbar notifications
 
@ThePhD I don't give a fuck what you want
 
@CatPlusPlus 'cos of lounge chat today.
 
I, as user, do not want focus stolen
EVER
 
5:44 PM
@MartinJames haha
 
for any fucking reason whatsoever
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes How do you ID which application is "yours" and which application is somebody elses?
 
It might be free money, or the end of the world notification, and I still do not give a damn
 
Ubuntu is the worst offender when it comes to focus stealing.
 
@ThePhD But the use case for stealing focus from another application is when your app can tell better than the user where the user wants the focus to be. Good luck finding it.
 
5:44 PM
@ThePhD Trivially by PIDs
 
Xeo
@ThePhD Uhm, you spawned the window?
 
@ThePhD Are you trolling?
 
Or tokens or whatever
 
Do you write programs that don't know what windows they own?
 
user3010322
How does the OS know?
 
user3010322
5:45 PM
So you can't steal focus from "not-your" windows?
 
It's the OS' job to know
Compare the window owner PIDs
Or tokens
Or whatever
 
@ThePhD Who do you think created those windows in the first place?
 
It's not exactly a difficult problem
 
WTF
It's trivial.
 
@ThePhD In what kind of situation would you need that information?
 
user3010322
5:46 PM
I dunno, I'm just starting to think about things like interprocess and stuff.
 
@ThePhD At least as things are supposed to work, a window never takes the focus. Rather, a window that has the focus can give it to some other window.
 
The only situation I can think of is when you actually want to steal focus.
 
user3010322
Shrug. Well, okay.
 
You can interprocess-ask your other process to give focus.
 
5:48 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not sure I like that idea either.
 
When I'm typing in one window I don't want another window to suddenly pop up and have the latter half of my text appear in that one.
This happens a lot with Ubuntu.
 
Processes should not be able to move focus out of their focused windows at all
That'd probably break things
 
But you can't ask any random process to give away focus. I'm playing that game and don't want to lose three seconds away from victory because your stupid app thought I wanted to type in my name or whatever the fuck.
 
whatever i don't care
 
@ScottW ja :)
 
user3010322
5:50 PM
So it's a system based on giving, where only the window manager (which channels the user) is allows to steal focus (because it's under permission from the user?)
 
Your application is sharing both screen space and input time with all other applications. The minimum it can do is to behave.
 
@ScottW yep
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The other app can ask. The game should just refuse (unless you've configured it to do otherwise).
 
dound
donut
i suck
 
@JerryCoffin Well, yeah.
 
user3010322
5:51 PM
This is actually really good UX. I'm writing all this down.
 
@CatPlusPlus To be fair - he did edit it quickly.
 
user3010322
... We came to these conclusions in 30minutes. How have whole design teams paid oodles of billions not been able to come to the same conclusions? =/
 
The secret to UX is to use any software ever written
 
@ScottW listen to Dalai Lama. I like that song.
 
they are incompetent
everyone is
no hope
 
5:53 PM
no future
 
user3010322
no love
 
no home
 
eternity of horrible broken sottware
 
no past
 
and nowhere to go
 
user3010322
5:53 PM
BUT BAAABYY
 
no usr either
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So fucking annoying when Windows does this with BF3.
it pops up saying "Er mah gerd, ur performance so low!".
yeah my performance is low, I just got shot in the face because you minimized the fucking game without asking me.
 
microsoft is not very good at computers
 
zch
Update now or in 5 minutes?
 
@ThePhD ohhhh I'm going to be in LA end of March, beginning of April
 
user3010322
5:54 PM
@TonyTheLion I'm nowhere near there at that time. :C I'll be in New York.
 
stupid primitive audio system with no app routing
 
@ThePhD :(
 
user3010322
:c I would have invited you over
 
user3010322
made you a fruit salad and everything
 
nipple salad
 
user3010322
5:55 PM
maybe even my lovely sausage and spaghetti!
 
oh no that's Cat's fav salad
 
user3010322
Ooh, and I could bake too..
 
@CatPlusPlus I thought they added it, hence the (privileged) audio-graph service? That is kernel-only because of DRM
 
I think I'll have spaghetti for dinner.
 
@sehe In Win8?
 
5:55 PM
I have no food in my house
 
Yup
 
I need to go to store
 
I have no pasta of any sort:(
 
This time I may even buy the missing ingredients beforehand
 
5:56 PM
maybe I'll just skip eating tonight
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus @sehe AudioGraph is also in Win7, no?
 
I'm too lazy
 
I'm not very good at cooking
 
@ThePhD i think so, yes
 
user3010322
I mean, I see it in my processes here.
 
5:56 PM
@TonyTheLion Welcome to Puppy's World.
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes How can you not be good at cooking? :c
 
Win7 doesn't have app audio routing
 
user3010322
Cooking is SO MUCH FUN.
 
how nice of you to ask my permission to read wat you had in front of you
...
 
user3010322
5:57 PM
@CatPlusPlus I dunno what routing is, versus that audio graph thingy.
 
You can change the default, or the app can change whatever it uses, but there's no way to set it if the app doesn't know how to do it!
 
Involves knives too often
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Knives are fun.
 
Yet another retarded thing that should be done at OS level not app level
 
I really enjoy cooking - those restaurants with a window into the kitchen.
 
5:58 PM
My fingers disagree
 
@ThePhD I mean putting audio output from app X to device Y
There's routing between the devices, but that? nope
 
@CatPlusPlus should technically be feasible. on practice, I noticed vlc doesn't "follow" my changes in primary sound device except when restarted
 
user3010322
@CatPlusPlus It should always just be sent to the default audio device... there's API for that. Dota2 does it.
 
user3010322
When I change my primary output and input, Dota2 follows it around.
 
@ThePhD The point is that no, it shouldn't
 
5:59 PM
@CatPlusPlus I think there is. The UI just doesn't expose it. Chances are, DAW/editing software leverages it
 
user3010322
A lot of other games don't bother. :c
 
I don't want it to
 

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