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9:43 AM
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Q: How do I build gcc with C++ concepts ("concepts lite") support?

Dietmar KühlThe C++ standards committee is working on a TS (Technical Specification) for Concepts extension: "Programming Languages - C++ Extensions for Concepts". N4377 is the latest version of this document. For inclusion into the C++ standard features are asked to be implemented, ideally for a publicly ac...

 
Please, refrain from downvoting/asking to close unless you understand how the C++ standarization process works, what is a TS and why it is important to have tools available to try the changes in the TS before it is standarized and forced unto all users Having access to tools that can be used to detect inconsistencies in TS before it becomes standard and engraved in stone is of uttermost importance. This is on-topic for anyone interesting in the C++ tag.
 
@DavidRodríguez-dribeas There is nothing in the SO guidelines that says its OK to ask for a tool "if its incredibly important for the standards process". The guidelines are very clear: "Questions asking us to .. find a .. tool .. are off-topic". This might not be a good guideline, but it is what we have. Fortunately the question avoids this issue now, but your bolded text is irrelevant in the assessment of a flag for "off topic due to asking for a tool". People have all sorts of reasons why they think their tool request should be allowed. I personally wish they were. But they aren't.
 
@GreenAsJade: Questions asking to recommend a tool. Is this such a question? Was it before? Consider this or this or this. I understand that in other languages the language and the tool evolves from the same place, this is different in C++ (and C) where the language evolves and to test new features you need to find tools [...]
[...] That is even more critical in situations like this, where we are talking about a feature that is not in the standard yet, but almost and for which experience has to be gained. There are different parts of the language that are suboptimal and would have been better had the community had time to try it. Concepts TS was created to gather that experience and improve the feature before it is standardized, the community needs to have implementations. Consider, if you may, the analogy of a guide dog. Do you want to play the fast rule, or would you let a guide dog in?
@GreenAsJade: Have you read 5. Questions about general computing hardware and software are off-topic for Stack Overflow unless they directly involve tools used primarily for programming. -- How is a compiler not a tool for programming. Check the list of questions in this answer to your question in meta. How are they different?
 
@DavidRodríguez-dribeas I think you misread the guidelines? It says questions asking to recommend or find a tool. Everyone can make an argument why their case deserves an exception to the rule. And this might be one. This doesn't make it "on topic", as you have asserted. If it is worth keeping despite being off topic, because it's important, that's a whole different request, and very valid. It's just important to be clear
I've spent a lot of time in the review queues, and have a keen interest in what is and is not really accepted. I can tell you for a fact that hundreds of questions identical in form to the orignal version of this question are closed every day. Questions about tools that are on topic are "what is this error message" or "how do I do this". Questions asking to recommend or find a tool are categorically out of scope, and are routinely closed. It's just how it is. The place to make a request for it to be different is meta.
 
@GreenAsJade: My point is that this is in the grey zone, you can argue both ways. People in the C++ community have deemed it interesting enough for 30 upvotes in the question and 15 to the answer, that has to have some weight. You might dislike that your flagging was rejected, but taking into consideration the votes is a good feature in SO.
... and do go ahead and close every other question I linked if they are against the rules. This is one of the few questions/answer from which I have got any value in the last year; even if you close it it is still visible due to my rep so that won't take the value away for me --it will for others. This is a community, and even if a particular decision hurts your feelings, the fact is that the community has reopened the question. Live with it.
As a side note, Dietmar is one of the members in the standardization committee for C++, an active member of SO for over 3 years with a well above average reputation. I would expect that he has a feeling of whether something is relevant for C++ programmers in SO.
 
9:44 AM
Can I clarify something: I don't mind that this question is still open, I applaud it. I don't dislike that my flagging was rejected - I applaud that due process happened.
 
I am not sure why you believe that the problem is with things coming up in audit reviews
 
This included rewording the question, which needed to happen.
 
Well, the rewording lost some of the value just to keep it alive.
An important part of the process of standarization is validation of the TS before it becomes standard. Before the rewording, as new compilers start supporting the TS they could be added. Now it is almost impossible to discover whether such a compiler even exists
 
What I was taking the time to debate with you is your assertion that the question is "on topic", and particularly the reasons you gave for why.
The fact that something is important to someone doesn't make it on topic.
Neither does the fact (which you passingly alluded to) that it was asked by a high rep user
 
Due to connections I have, I managed to grab a hold of Andrew (the lead author of the proposal) and became aware that the linked tool exists. It is almost impossible to discover for someone that does not directly know people in the committee (John Lakos forwarded my request to Andrew) this tool or any others
 
9:47 AM
It's great that you guys managed to get the question up and answered
 
Lets be clear with the "on-topic", "off-topic". I believe it is on-topic on the spirit of SO
 
Spirit is such a grey line, though, when you are reviewing hundreds of people and their questions that they want left open
 
And to be clear, I have issues understanding the fine lines where something like this is whitish-grey or blackish-grey
 
Don't you find that, or do you not spend time in the close vote queue?
This is the point I was trying to make in my comment on your answer to my question.
 
I am less active in SO these days, I used to be quite active back 2/3 years back
 
9:49 AM
There are many notable examples of where off-topic questions are left open in the spirit of community or general goodness. I think I pointed to some in my question
 
Now I just stroll every so often a few minutes
 
The only thing I feel compelled to argue with you about is the assertion that a question is on topic, when it's not. If you were just arguing "this should stay open, even though it's dark grey" we might never have started talking to each other :)
 
... and then you titled it with a judgmental: Should I avoid reviewing
 
Ah - did you gather why though?
That was in response to a specific thing: another very senor SO'er asserting that if you fail audits and don't immediately see why, you should stop reviewing.
 
I have been in the community since the beta days, this is on-topic with the spirit of SO over the time. The questions that you claim are off-topic but remain are what I call on-topic in spirit if not the law
 
9:51 AM
I agree with that sentiment
But in Dieter's question you shouted (bold) that the question was on topic, and gave bad reasons why.
Instead of appealing to spirit and good will :)
 
@GreenAsJade That is something I was not aware of, and something you would need to deal with the person that did that comment. I think I have been clear that this question is borderline and that it takes a fair understanding of C++ to understand why it is [in spirit] on-topic
 
I think we've flushed that out too, which is great.
 
I did it in bold to raise attention, exactly because I believe that it can be seen as off-topic unless you have a deeper understanding of the context
The question went through a close/reopen (not sure how many such cycles), I wanted to make it resonate that without some background it may be misunderstood
 
I can appreciate that. Unwittingly, perhaps, you gave emphasis that wasn't intended? Your initial coment, that I responded to, appeared to argue strongly that it is on topic, in some contrast to your later words where you acknowledge that it is grey-but-important-to-remain-open
 
It is grey, I believe whitish-grey, you believe blackish-grey
 
9:57 AM
Indeed.
:)
 
On the need for a context, let me be clear: I believe you do need to understand the domain before judging the question. If a question asks how to do X, is it a valid question or not?
 
I fully support you for some cases. For example, you need to understand the domain to understand if a question is clear.
However, so far I am not persuaded I need to understand the domain in order to understand whether a person is falling foul of the guidlines that says "questions that ask us to recommend or find a tool are out of scope"
 
uhm... the reasons for closing have changed once again... but there used to be one option claiming close because the question does not show any effort or attempt at understanding, in the lines of asking to solve my problem rather than asking about an issue
Without understanding the domain, that or the "clear" that you mention cannot be understood.
 
It's true that its confusing when the guidelines change. Maybe the realisation that they have changed gives you a bit more insight into my insistence on this one?
The specific rules that I'm refering to are really quite clear :)
 
Well, you did provide some links to tutorials in some answers... are they not an answer to "find a tool... tutorial"
:)
 
10:01 AM
Heh heh - sly ... but ...the rules don't say you can't priovide these things, only that you can't ask for them ;)
(Which helps in the case of Dieter's question, because we certainly are allowed to tell him what tool to use ;) )
But let me not get too frivilous
Instead, to return to something that matters.
As a person reviewing 40 close votes per day, I can tell you that the grey ones take all the time. I guess that's obvious.
So I think it behooves experienced people who want to ask a grey question to be considerate of us garbage-removal-folk, and ask their question in a way that doesn't trigger the alarms in the first place, putting it in the CVQ.
 
I did my share of reviews, although there was far less activity in SO those days (now I sound like my grandpa... I need to do something with that!)
 
I was really really suprised to see the rep of Dieter and the incredibly poorly worded question that he originally asked. it was literally begging to be closed
And I had just seen numerous questions from newbies identical in form go past and be nailed.
 
The problem, I think I mentioned before, not sure if I got it through, is that the better question is what tools implement this, so that it can be updated by different people as they become aware of them --note that in particular the one tool that is available is a branch in a repo of gcc, it is not even a compiler, but a set of changes on top of a container.
 
True - that's a great type of question.
 
I am aware of people wanting to do the same with the clang codebase (create a branch, implement the TS), but I cannot figure out where
Well, that is the original question, is it not? Any tool that implements the TS?
 
10:07 AM
Note, though, that the SO policymakers don't think so
 
s/tool/compiler
 
(Hang on let me remind myself)
Hmm - subtley different. But, now that I see the original wording, I can see how even the wording you gave (that I like) would still raise alarms
Honestly: the real problem is the policy, when it comes down to it.
Why the f*** shouldn't we share information with each other here about tools we use?
 
The current incarnation of the question is, arguably, worse than the original one. It narrows the focus just to keep the information alive. Dietmar figured out that there was one, and how to get it to build (I failed in this stage myself) and wrote a question/answer to make it available
 
You will find that the answer to this question, from the SO policy makers, will apply to the "great type of question" you asked above. "The answers go out of date, they are opinionated...etc etc:
The contortions are due to the policy, though, right?
And the policy is there because the SO policymakers don't want questions on their site that go out of date.
 
The alternative is that noone tries it, with not questions/comments/requests for change the TS goes through and gets approved and goes into the standard. At this point it won't ever date, it will be carved in stone forever, the C++ committee makes an effort not to change the semantics breaking existing programs. There you would have a bunch of questions that never date on why the hell is this failing here and there with answers: because no one contended the TS
That is the part of understanding the standardization process of C++ that most people won't get unless they are familiar. Unlike other languages that are designed by a closed group, the C++ standard is approved by a small group, but built by a community, many of whom are in SO
[Many of the ones that have active votes are also in SO]
This is a question that will be dated in three years time, probably even less than that, it won't be relevant then, but unless we have this question now we are hurting the language and every user of C++, probably after 2017 when Bjarne Stroustrup plans on adding the TS into the standard.
 
10:16 AM
Well - none of this is easy :) Nothing is, where large groups of people are involved. You guys are passionate about your standard, which is great :) I'm sorry to have been a small fly in the ointment, and I really appreciate being able to talk to you sensibly about it.
 
Well, I spend 40hr/wk using it. I want the language to evolve in a way that helps me during close to one third of my time.
And in general, the whole SO community is built on passion for programming. Questions... well, it could be someone that just needs something fixed; spending time answering comes from people with a passion.
 
It's the world you're wrapped up in :) For me, I'm spending a lot of time in the community moderation process during my own time (after work) just because it seems to call me at the moment. SO helps me a lot from time to time (in work) and I like giving back. The community moderation process is really stickly though - as this episode illustrates :)
I do think it's perhaps hard for you and Dieter to imagine the sheer number of questions that get flagged for closure that look identical to his original one, and the agonising people have in deciding what to do about it each one
... and how especially difficult that is when you don't personally agree with all the rules that you are asked to implement...
 
I know how complicated it is. Been there done that, escaped later on :)
 
:) Phases and stages of life :)
 
The comment in bold was trying to avoid the close/reopen war. I don't think it was offensive (if it was, apologies)
I've spent countless days after work until 1am answering and moderating (more answering than moderating), three years where I was doing this every single day (not every day until 1, but every day connecting and going through the process)
 
10:39 AM
(Y)
My turn now :)
 
 
4 hours later…
2:38 PM
I'm obviously late to the party. However. let me point out a few things here:
1. The question did **not** in any form ask to _find_ a tool or something. It asked for the _existance_. That may be a subtle distinction to so some but a report of an existing but unaccessible implementation is relevant information with respect to get something standardized.
2. If you really think it is a request to locate something, it may be worth checking a bit of context because actually there was an answer right from the start: a [constructive(*)] existence proof showing how to get hold of one compiler impl
If policy makers on of SO wanted the answers to not go out of date, they should have chosen a topic where things don't change in the first place. Technology in computing is still changing at a rather high pace and I'm sure that most of the questions only make sense in the contemporary context. Also, the "off-topic" reason doesn't cover questions only being relevant contemporary.
 

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