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2:44 AM
Anyone alive?
One of my students asked a good question: What's a real-world use case for class/static methods?
 
I'm alive.
consider a database model in an ORM
class Tag(db.Model):
  id = db.Column(db.Integer, primary_key=True)
  name = db.Column(db.String(64))

  @classmethod
  def create(cls, **attrs):
     # create a new tag

  @staticmethod
  def seed():
    # create some fake tags for testing
 
3:02 AM
+1
thanks
 
3:26 AM
cbg()
 
4:12 AM
@Ffisegydd how about adding Anaconda to the IDEs list? continuum.io
 
4:26 AM
Anaconda isn't an IDE...
 
4:48 AM
& Enthought Canopy?
 
5:12 AM
kebidzs (hungarian pronounciation)
 
6:07 AM
is there any way in which I can make python cgi server ssl secured?
 
It probably better to use a real server like apache
 
Swordy if you have an IDE that you can write up the pros and cons for then we can maybe see about adding it. I have no experience with them so can't help you write it.
 
6:34 AM
cccabbage
im so sick of trying to fix this import error im having with jython
 
I can't help you with Jython I'm afraid
 
jython is kinda like python anyway
im having this same sort of error here : stackoverflow.com/questions/3596098/… but difference is none of the solution worked for me =(
 
7:01 AM
Jython isn't kinda like Python, it is a version of python :p the normal "version" that people use is CPython and is written in C as opposed to Java for Jython.
 
7:20 AM
cbg
just dropping for a little to say I'm going to be a little less active at least the next few weeks
I am on location with the customer full time at the moment, so less opportunity to be hanging out in chat.
I'll have to test the waters first :-P
 
7:33 AM
@MartijnPieters do you do Python consultancy?
 
@RobertGrant Yes.
 
That's cool
This is a funny question, but how well does it pay? :)
(approximately)
 
@MartijnPieters That's cool, hope everything goes well with your customer. Assuming you won't be able to make this meeting we're having tomorrow, the transcript will at least be up if you want to have a look over it.
 
(approximately)
Thanks
 
@Robert it depends on the knowledge of the mentor but I believe it can be up to a few £100 per hour.
 
7:44 AM
Sorry, weird question I know. I'm currently slightly locked into a more boring language and am curious about options.
 
Of course if the person was looking for consultancy over a longer period I assume there is a reduction in the hourly bill.
codementor.io is more for people who absolutely need some help in small doses right now
 
C/\BB4G3
 
@Ffisegydd now I'm Googling, it probably also depends on whether the person is the #1 Python contributor on SO :)
 
Hah. Well it's just experience, even those who aren't active on SO but who have a lot of experience can charge a lot of money. Martijn just has the advantage that he has both :P
Martijn is going to be busy for the next few weeks...he won't be answering questions...this is our moment! We must get as much rep as we can while he's away!
 
lol
I think I just got my first 10 rep from a Python-related question today
this is gonna be sweet
 
8:00 AM
@Ffisegydd about that, will you do me the favour and ping me before we starting?
I would really appreciate it
 
Uhhh yes. I will try to remember to.
 
thanks :)
 
I have written " SOMEONE PING PETER BEFORE THE MEETING BEGINS! " in the meeting room :P
 
:D:D:D:D
 
So when we all join we'll see it
9gag.com/gag/aBQ1oRD bahahahahahaha. Silly Welsh language...
 
8:10 AM
Wow codementor takes a 20% cut
I guess that includes stripe's cut
 
Is that unsurprising?
 
There's also airpair.com and hackhands.com
which are similar
I've done sessions with all of them
 
@Ffisegydd just seemed like quite a lot :) maybe it's not, I dunno
 
8:32 AM
@RobertGrant Enough to make a living ;-)
is on a train now, so connection is going to be spotty.
 
He says from his porsche as his playboy bunny chauffeur whisks him to his next pool party
 
What I charge depends on how unique my experience is in the task. Specialist Plone work will cost you more.
so my day rate is anywhere between £400 and £700, also depending on how far and how often you make me travel.
@DanielRoseman Oh, hackhands? That one is new to me.
@RobertGrant I just adjusted my prices to take the 20% cut into account. :-P
@RobertGrant: but if you book a long-term mentorship the cut goes down.
Anywho, arriving at my destination, signing of.
 
@MartijnPieters O.O
your daily rate?!?!?!
in hungary that is the monthly salary of junior engineer :/
 
well , in Mumbai it is half of a junior engineer in hungary.
 
8:48 AM
@MartijnPieters yes they're reasonably new. They started with a very annoying model where you had to camp out on their IM channel where people posted requests to be picked up immediately, but they've since added scheduling like everyone else
 
@MartijnPieters okay, that's a nice range. Now I just need to drop all the knowledge I have that makes me money, and replace it with Python :)
@MartijnPieters glad I could help :) you owe me beer.
 
9:16 AM
@Ffisegydd k
@MartijnPieters does ur customer know u have such a high rep in SO?
 
cbg
@PeterVaro Don't forget that in England everything costs more
 
cbg
 
@JonClements I know, but not 30x more (30 days / month)
 
@Peter yeah, but contracting, you don't often get to do full months
 
I know that -- I worked as a freelancer for the last decade
but still.. as a daily rate it is super high -- at least for me ;)
 
9:25 AM
Depending on client I charge similar to Martijn, slighter broader range of 240 - 1440 though
 
well.. good for you guys, I charged the same amount for a bit more than a week, maybe for two weeks
 
so what kind of job do customers want you guys to do?
 
(definitely not 1.4k but ~400-500)
 
@compski destroy all non-ninjas and puppies in the world
 
@JonClements like seriously .. r they like "yo i want you to build me a software program to analyse risk of my future trade transactions "
 
9:32 AM
@compski A lot of the work is protected by NDAs
 
@Ffisegydd =p hmm actually my example sounds more like a contract than a per hr basis
 
@Ffisegydd there's also project contracts, but you fix price and timescale it (with some cavaets) then you agree payment on milestones
If your history is well known, but the potential client isn't, you can normally get away with pro-forma'ing them the first milestone
Basically, it's just easier to work FT for an employer and have your tax and NI paid, get your sick leave and all associated benefits applicable under law, and know you're going to be paid the same day every month and get on with it
 
@JonClements interesting thx .. hmm but normally freelance u can avoid paying tax right?
 
@compski I think you get reduced NI rates if you're in the UK, but income tax is the same
 
@compski lol no you still pay income tax, unless you decide to fiddle the books illegally.
 
9:47 AM
Tax is more awkward - I miss PAYE
 
@JonClements do you just have an accountant?
 
@Robert yes - happens to be a friend of mine for over 10 years... so don't even have to pay him :)
But 'im a few beers and a steak dinner/fry up a couple of times a year... all good :)
 
Nice
 
@davidism I'm approving of this Helix artist you linked yesterday.
 
I'm almost out of tea... What do I do... What do I do... races around room in panic
 
10:00 AM
Drink coffee like a normal person?
 
"Person"? You offend me sir!
@RobertGrant that's another perk of being FT employed - during the day you don't have to worry about buying your own tea/coffee
 
@RobertGrant wow alot of UK ppl here .. are u guys looking forward to letting Scottish ppl out?
 
@Ffisegydd been able to download Civ5
 
Ah really? Nice.
Presumably Civ6 won't actually boot until October though.
But at least you can play the others
 
@Ffisegydd hopefully get a chance to play it tonight for a bit
Nope - can't download Civ:BE yet, but can use Civ5 :p
Horrible feeling I've completely forgotten how to play it (Civ2 was my last one) and it's going to be embarrassing, but...
 
10:06 AM
I've never played against a human
Or...uhh...dog.
bullet dodged
 
dog, dog, dog!?
I'm a cute yellow puppy dammit sir!
That's nearly out of tea - so don't try my patience!
 
@compski I think it's sad, but other than watching Braveheart, I'm not aware of all the issues :)
@JonClements as well as tea and coffee, the canteen here means my (nice) lunch costs around 90p/day
Big lunch is still under 1.50
 
10:23 AM
 
lol
 
what... some cricketer has been suspended because his bowling action has been deemed illegal?
 
10:39 AM
Admittedly south africa has cheaper food anyway, but it's still very cheap even for here
 
10:58 AM
india.com. Wish I'd just bought domain names 20 years ago :)
 
11:08 AM
I there any way in which I can make python CGI server SSL secured?
Specifically in python 2.6?
 
@Pilot I believe you've already asked that :)
 
@RobertGrant In the previous post I forgot to mention python version
@RobertGrant thanks lot
 
the answer's still the same - also - it's insane these days to use CGI with Python
 
Yeah, so on a practical note, don't do it, of course, but at least if you google you'll get that web page come up if you're doing it for funsies
 
11:19 AM
@RobertGrant its not working for reasons
 
12:03 PM
"It's not working for reasons" awesome.
 
12:17 PM
So that Python bug I was talking about yesterday.
Turns out it had already been reported. One year ago!
 
:-(
 
greetings and salutations @Kevin
may you die soon and wither
oh wait, hang on... think I've got that quote wrong
@Kevin DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE LOTC DOESN'T WORK AND PUPPY DOESN'T HAVE TEA... DO YOU... DO YOU! GROWL
 
haha
 
oh wait... got it... live longer and prosper my internet friend
 
@Jon if you need something to take your mind off your lack of tea you could try and one-liner this
 
12:26 PM
Are you implying that there's something more important than an Englishman's cup of tea!?
 
Yeah. A Welshman's cup of coffee.
 
Is it good coffee?
 
No. But it has caffeine in it, so it'll do.
 
I wonder if I should mention that you can modify locals() in this question, for the sake of completion. Foot shootingness be damned.
 
Using regexes as dict lookups!
 
12:28 PM
tea and coffee for you two. In turn, I have an energy drink. It's the differences in life that make us special.
 
@Kevin two things: 1) had you received my recommendations earlier? 2) if you like mystery, you should start Intruders -- still have no idea if it is going to be a huge bluff or actually a super exciting series we were waiting for the last few years after Lost
 
What version of Python are you using? — Jon Clements 13 secs ago
HAH I knew you couldn't resist!
 
You recommended Bojack Horseman, right? I've seen it advertised on Netflix, but haven't given it a look yet.
 
I've started watching Supernatural
 
yeah, and appended a few thing to your list since we;ve last talked
 
@Ffisegydd and is it any good?
 
Documentation says you shouldn't modify locals.
 
And I've seen ads for The Intruders. The creepy little girl reminds me of The Returned, although that has a creepy little boy.
 
@Peter so far yes it's amusing enough. I wouldn't say it's amazing, history-defining television but it's something nice to watch while I'm reading.
 
@Zacrath Indeed, which is why I hesitate to mention it.
 
12:33 PM
@Ffisegydd while you are reading..? o.O
 
I need 5 rep to get 5555
@Peter yeah I often watch TV and read at the same time. Or watch TV and write code.
 
My current "something nice to watch" show is Parks and Recreation. The first season was a little rough, but I'm enjoying it a lot now
 
Yeah I binge-watched and finished P+R. I loved it.
 
@PeterVaro that's Gus ^^^^
 
An article on Wired suggested to "take 2 months to really appreciate it". I think I finished it in less than a week.
 
12:35 PM
@JonClements I love black dogs;)
is he quite old @JonClements?
 
Everything's great, except when the protagonists are arbitrarily mean to people for no reason.
 
he's 10 - nearly 11
 
yeah -- I knew it ;)
 
I felt that with time Andy and April really came into their own. Ron, April and Chris make the show for me.
 
@Kevin and @Ffisegydd the thing is I still don't like comedies that much (referring to PnR)
 
12:36 PM
Jerry makes a beautiful pointillist collage mural and everyone else disqualifies it because he flubbed his presentation :-(
 
@Ffisegydd you got the accept - good one Stewie!
 
Ta. Martijn was saying earlier that he was gonna be busy for a few weeks with a client so we should all make the effort to hoard the leftover rep.
 
@Ffisegydd but then you can't focus on one of the things -- I mean, I can do multitasking as well, but to getting deep into the story relive the moments and feelings of a show/movie/book needs full attention
(however it is not true to sitcoms and other super-light products)
 
Exactly. Supernatural is pretty light. If it's something deep then I get distracted by it.
 
well as for me: if it does not distract me, then I don't care ;)
anyway, it's time for me to get back to work -- bbl
rhubarb ~
 
12:44 PM
I consider a show pretty engrossing if I can't finish a few Keen puzzles while I watch :-)
I find that doing math puzzles while listening to a show, stimulates both the symbolic and linguistic portions of my brain.
I just made that up. I bet it does no such thing.
I wonder if a = a gets optimized to a no-op by the interpreter.
I guess it still needs to verify it isn't a NameError.
 
Poo - was just going to post an answer and the OP deleted the Q :(
import re

class MyDict(dict):
    def __getitem__(self, key):
        ret = [
            dict.__getitem__(self, key) for key in self
            if re.match(key.replace('?', '.'), key + '$')
        ]
        if not ret:
            raise KeyError
        return ret
Anyway - that was my crappy answer (had already written the suitable warnings about it)
 
They've gotten rid of "too minor" in suggested edits, ffs.
 
@Kevin those puzzles look hard!
 
12:59 PM
I'm looking into SE's now (depending if this reject and edit works)
and I know the audits are there to stop people not keep editing and mods can suspend editing privs manually if they're abused etc... etc...
 
They're not too hard once you have a toolbox of approaches you can use to make deductions. Like "5 never appears in a cell marked with a % operation"
 
I just got tired of the fact that I read over a post in the queue, do a bit of research, make my mind up to decline it, and lo' and behold, it's already been approved
 
Or "a puzzle always has exactly one unique solution, so two adjacent '3%' groups will never be (1,3) at the same time, and they'll never be (2,6) at the same time"
 
wb @Daniel
wotcha @Zero
 
Mornin' @Jon :-)
 
1:04 PM
I wish this track wasn't so catchy...
 
@JonClements cbg
 
Should we be pleased or frightened that we now have the #1 django expert using the salad language? :)
rubs paws together - world domination awaits us - the "Dark Council" shall once again rule! muhahahhah woof woof woof bark woof
 
Peer pressure is a hell of a drug.
On a completely different topic, have you heard about the hot new trend where everyone mails me ten dollars?
You all want to be cool, right?
 
I don't want to be "cool" I've got this new thing but you're probably never heard of it.
The thing is you mail me £10 in an envelope typed up on a typewriter, but it's probably too underground for you.
 
the glorious fall season is here and the harvest is complete at last. I got tons of apples!
 
1:13 PM
Make it into cider!
 
Bugger the cider, make it into scrumpy!
 
I do love a nice pint of scrumpy...
 
I did make cider, and cider donuts, it's delicious
 
Cider donuts? 'murica.
 
@Kevin sure - I'll mail you $10 dollars... I've just got £48million guaranteed to me by the ex-wife of a Nigerian prince... all I had to do was send my name/address/driving licence/passport off... :p
 
1:22 PM
@corvid Mmmmm
 
Of all the seasons, I dislike autumn the least. Summer is too hot, winter is too cold, spring is too allergenic.
 
is it wrong to like the sound of a cider donut?
 
@Kevin Wasps do get drunk in Autumn...
 
I've had a very weird apple and cheese bagel before...
 
@JonClements No. It sounds glorious
 
1:24 PM
Autumn is the herald of the Great Darkness, a period of the year where the sun sets while I'm still at work. I get about 30 minutes of sunlight a day during this time.
 
I can only assume the mistake was because "Ham" and "Apple" sound very similar
 
@JonClements Happened to me all the time in the States. God, do I hate those voice recognition directory service numbers over there..
 
@JonClements @Kevin Minecraft: I've dug a giant hole to y=11
 
How giant?
 
Well, only 3x3 for now, limited resources
Going to be a drop shaft to my mine tunnels. I <3 mining.
 
1:27 PM
@davidism Water lift all the way back up?
 
Do those still work in 1.7?
 
@davidism Uhhhhhhhhhh. pass.
 
Try not to intersect with my own tunnels at y=12 ;-)
 
Yeah, I don't know most of the stuff in here anymore. I'm from a simpler time, when you mined blocks then put them somewhere else.
I'll keep it in mind/block them off as if they never existed.
 
My current objective is to get ~80 cows, then harvest their leather for bookcases.
Then I can build a nice enchanting table. Nothing like mining with an Efficiency III diamond pick.
 
1:31 PM
We need a nether expedition at some point so we can make potions/enchantments.
I'm just playing to put off going to the DMV right now. :(
 
It would be more efficient to play at the DMV.
 
@IntrepidBrit went to a bagel shop in Sevenoaks
 
But I really shouldn't, the line will just get longer.
Yeah, I'll just bring my whole setup there.
 
I should have known at the outset I wasn't going to get far: "We haz baggles, you want a baggle?"
"Yes please, can I have a ham and cheese bagel" - "we gets you yam and chise baggle, yes"
bagel was brilliant - top notch - contents not what I asked for - but apple and cheese works - so learnt that much anyway
 
On the bright side, you'll probably have never tried the combo by itself. Maybe they're a blessed bagel shop, they introduce you to your favourite flavour. The next time you visit, there won't be a shop face, just an empty patch of wall...
 
1:37 PM
We never get mystical wandering shops in the US :-( I guess we aren't on the right ley line.
 
yes... maybe some deity decided for some reason to introduce that path of potential of eating apple and cheese to my life
 
@IntrepidBrit "Yes but was that bagel shop always here yesterday"?
 
Maybe the bagel shop wasn't really there, it was just a Harry Potter "Room of Requirement"
 
Anyway @JonClements it serves you right for asking for ham on a bagel anyway. Fusion food is all very well, but when you ask for something that's specifically forbidden by the people who invented the food in the first place, you're asking for trouble.
 
@DanielRoseman Precisely.
 
1:41 PM
@Daniel I shall take the belt off my trousers and punish myself accordingly for my sins - be back in a few years
 
I like the idea of some kind of oracle that drastically changes the course of future history by making mundane changes to the present. Today, Jon has an apple instead of ham. This gives him the energy to walk home instead of taking a cab. A struggling artist sees him during his commute, and is inspired to write the world's greatest novel.
 
@DanielRoseman Isn't that what we Brits do. "What a novel idea. What happens if I deep fry it in bacon?"
 
@DanielRoseman until Soylent Green appears I'm going to get in a lot of trouble
With everyone
 
So - at the moment - on a more serious note - how many attendees are we going to have for the room meeting tomorrow?
 
@JonClements No one if you don't correctly close your nested dashes
Freaking me out
 
1:44 PM
I'll be there, although I may have a work meeting at 3:45 PM UTC. Appx 15% chance of that.
 
@JonClements I hope to be, but assuming something doesn't go to yam tomorrow
 
I may swing by.
 
I'll be there barring unexpected meteorites, alien contact etc.
 
(has done so every day this week, so I should probably say expect my absence ;) )
 
I'm a newbie round these parts but may try and stick my head in at some point...
 
1:47 PM
@Daniel you're more than welcome to do so and provide any input you wish
The team here are fairly transparent to the running of this room, and we appreciate all and any input of our regulars and members
 
We'll probably use dystroy.org/miaou/100?python-meeting again, avoids clogging the main room up with the talk. Everyone is welcome but you may need to request read/write access, in which case just ping me or someone else at the time
 
@Ffisegydd I've changed davdism from write to admin there
 
Cool. I was looking over the previous meeting and davidism was saying stuff like "Oh well I'm really new here but..." :P
 
@Ffisegydd what you might want to add to the agenda, is why we bother with these meetings
 
DUN.
 
1:51 PM
I wouldn't want anyone to feel they have to attend, nor they're missing out if they don't kind of thing
 
Oh I see what you mean
Yeah I'll add that now
 
I heard people were going to be handing out boiled cabbage sweets...
Don't wanna miss out on that ;)
 
@IntrepidBrit no no no! eating cabbage is against the law of Cabbage!
 
Where does it say that?!
 
as dictated by errr, the Great Cabbage in errr...
someone help me make up a year that seems feasible
 
1:53 PM
0.
 
yes, yes... the floating point zero!
 
narrows eyes From what frame of reference?
 
and err... it was rule number...
 
@Jon done
 
And is 0 even a number? Is it not more of an abstract concept?
 
1:55 PM
@IntrepidBrit ahh... now you come to realise Cabbage in its purest form :)
 
all numbers are abstract concepts.
This doesn't mean that zero must be a number, but the fact doesn't disqualify it.
 
Okay... jotting down "Thou shall not eat cabbage" as rule #3
don't ask me what 1 and 2 are, because we haven't made those up yet...
 
The other day I read that the sumerians only used their zero equivalent if it occurred in the middle of a number. 402 is acceptable, 230 is not.
 
That's a pretty odd rule. I wonder what the reasoning was?
 
When reading a census, you'd just have to figure out from context whether your neighbor had 230 chickens or 23.
 
1:58 PM
@Kevin sadly, I find that stuff interesting, do you have a link or ref. to a book of some sorts?
 
@JonClements Aren't rule 1 and 2 "don't ask me what 1 and 2 are"?
 
I'll poke around my browser history and see if I can find it
 
@Zero I was going to ask, but then, with your comment, I hit recursion depth and crashed :(
oh come on servers... how long can it take 200 servers to replicate 300tb of data for some deity's sake
 
@JonClements Oops, it was the Babylonians, not the sumerians. "Later Babylonian texts used a placeholder (Babylonian digit 0.svg) to represent zero, but only in the medial positions, and not on the right-hand side of the number, as we do in numbers like 13,200"
Or are the babylonians a subset of the sumerians? My knowledge of early historical cultures is even worse than my knowledge of modern culture.
 
rbrb for now. switching OSes
 
2:12 PM
I've got an email to send
can't do much more until the databases sync and rebuild indices
so, catching up with Civ seems in order
 
Oh, did your payment get processed finally?
 
indeed... was a processing side error with Steam apparently
 
Good to hear it's resolved :-)
 
I was worried for a little as I know I've had fraudulent use of my cards, and police and fraud teams have been involved prior - so the bank's locked a couple of my cards down to "not generally usable - but okay for X, Y, Z transactions"
not ideal, but it stops an apparent spending spree that I made visiting a Cardiff shopping centre, then Harrods and Westfield kind of thing
not to mention the £300 withdrawals I made in Cardiff, London, Edinburgh and somewhere in Devon
For a a puppy that works from home, and hasn't been more than 5 miles from his house for a good 3/4 months, I sure apparently get around
right - let's see how crap I am at Civ... mission is to beat Stewie
or maybe not - "the steam servers are too busy to complete your request"
arhghghghgh
 
It's a conspiracy.
 
2:26 PM
stuff was so much easier when you had a couple of 3.5" floppies, had to play around with extended/expanded memory and use different boot disks to get different games to run...
@Ffisegydd and yes... you're the head of it - aren't you!?
 
with open('some.csv', 'rb') as f:
what does the rb means?
 
"read binary"
 
read and binary
 
it's well documented @AvinashRaj
 
thanks..
why we open a csv file as rb?
 
2:29 PM
If I run a Flask app with debug false it won't log errors. Does anyone know how to get flask to log errors even if not in debug?
 
@AvinashRaj because of encoding stuff... difficult to explain - but you always when using the csv module open and write in binary mode
(again - it's documented)
 
@Johnston I searched high and low for that webpage. I scoured the deserts in search of it to no avail. Eventually I found it by typing "flask log errors" into Google...:P
 
Phew..
Glad you googled that for me.
 
So am I.
Otherwise where would we be!?
 
Who knows?! We could be anywhere.
 
@JonClements so i don't need to include w in that. like wrb
 
errr. "w" is write "r" is read
 
@Johnston Well I'd still probably be in the desert searching for your answer.
 
hahaha
touché
 
2:34 PM
@Ffisegydd We're all in the Matrix... do you choose the blue pill or the red pill?
 
Probably in Utah, if you're got to search high AND low in the desert. Most deserts don't have a "high" ;)
@JonClements I never get that choice. I just get the ones with a little love heart on it and I wake up the next day in my bed with a thumping headache
 
@IntrepidBrit didn't know a brand of scotch came with hearts on it...
 
They looked something like:
If memory serves me correctly. (probably doesn't)
 
Great - we've got Gordon Brown involved to "invoke" the Scottish to stay a part of the UK
sheesh... I'd vote to leave even before he opened his mouth
 
;) - he's still popular up North. Keeps getting voted in after all...
 
2:39 PM
@JonClements I understand that perceptions of GB in Scotland are very different from in England.
 
@JonClements Anyway, I still prefer him to Miliband...
To be honest, some of the YES voters have stopped to take stock at the market drop. Many of the ones on my various social media feeds who were advocating that there'd be no backlash, no negatives etc have shut up. The "proper" nationalists (in my mind's eye) are still on track thought - for them it's a matter of democratic principal, costs be damned
tumbleweed passes through the room Independence chat kills the room again ;)
 
2:55 PM
nope - was just putting food in the oven and thinking
They had a good discussion on LBC today about "when did it happen that the south of the border didn't realise there was so much discontent"
 
Linky?
To be honest, most of the strong "discontent/vitirol" has been stirred up recently. There's always been an angry edge, but it was normally directed towards Thatcher and the Tories. Ever since the SNP became a political power (due to Labour followed by LibDem dissatisfaction), there's been a lot of US vs THEM chat pervading Scottish politics
 
@IntrepidBrit do you think it's fair to say that the beginning of the modern independence movement was the Poll Tax? That's what I hear repeatedly ...
 
@ZeroPiraeus That or Thatcher in general
@ZeroPiraeus I would say that's fair
 
yes - Salmond has turned this into a "against the Conversatives" thing - rather than what I believe it's really meant for
 
DSM
Loyalist cabbage, all.
 

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