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1:57 AM
@JonClements hehe ;) still in very early development phase
but thanks for mentioning :)
 
Damnit Peter Ive been a fool
 
@Peter what a surprise to see you at 3am :p
@Peter finally got around to listening to the new Texas album
 
@JonClements why? I've told you I get up at 4AM and go to bed at 8PM or something like that
@Owatch how's so?
 
@Peter you missed the sarcasm in my statement :)
 
@JonClements that's probably because my brain is still waking up
 
2:09 AM
I'm in the midst of deeply regretting a design choice I made for my API. I decided to index sprites by having them assigned to strings that the user makes. But once you need sprites automatically generated, this becomes a problem.
 
I would say, I'm at a solid 78% recovery ;)
@Owatch and you are telling me this, because...? ;P
 
You need to know.
 
oh, okay, thanks ;)
what are you working on btw?
 
'Welcome.
There are some python bindings for SDL C library.
 
there are several already, yes
 
2:12 AM
I decided to write an API so that you can create windows easier. Much like you would using tkinter.
 
> 0. DESIGNED -- not detailed, minimal layout /OR/ design API first
1. HACKED -- no matter how, just make it work
2. PRETTIFIED -- clean up, make it idiomatic
3. OPTIMISED -- profile it and optimise if necessary
^ this is my latest roadmap to any project I'm working on
 
I would say I'm at 1.
 
@Peter you'll hate it, but can you try: youtube.com/watch?v=IZFoJtprN6U
wb @SomeKittens
 
According to another SO question, since it's almost directly mapped to C, you've got to do your own garbage collection.
 
@JonClements that's definitely not for me, yes.. although it is way better than the one with the male singers, you used to show me
 
2:15 AM
it's just catchy :(
been listening to it all night now
 
I'm listening to something like this lately:
@JonClements just to demonstrate how far we are in music right now ;)
 
Okay, that's actually mostly agreeable with me
 
@Owatch if you want C gc'd.. and use a separated gc along with python's... uhh.. well.. good luck with that
(I would definitely say: stop now, no, don't do it, please!)
 
@PeterVaro I'll just save extra often. .
 
2:21 AM
@Owatch use source control software perhaps?
 
@JonClements and you actually like that? it is just surprising after the songs you've already showed me
 
@Peter I'm very eclectic :)
 
but tbh I'm not much fan of rap, I'm a fan of well-made hip-hop, with a light touch of trip-hop and/or jazz
 
The SO question I read mentioned that if you were creating raw Texture sprites, and not spawning them from the SpriteFactory SDL uses, then garbage collection would not be automated. I'm currently using the SpriteFactory and so I believe I'm safe when it comes to GC.
 
2:24 AM
@JonClements that's the same link
 
ugh... pasted from the wrong tab
 
@JonClements :D:D
 
I class that as light rap
good base and lyrics (yes yes, I know a lyrical mad guy)
 
that's from the hatred '90s
 
there was some good stuff from the 90s, same as there was beep stuff from the 60s
 
2:26 AM
you are absolutely right about that
@JonClements can I show you something extreme?
 
worried about saying "yes sure mate", but okay... go ahead :p
 
you have to listen and watch the entire track: -- but if it comes to rap, I prefer something like this:
 
I'll listen to that after I've listened to this Fugees track
I like that one :)
 
@JonClements nfw
you really are eclectic, aren't you? ;)
 
The only thing I don't like is the trance tracks "da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da da"
 
2:33 AM
and sometimes: "dadada dadada dadada dadada" and then back to "da da da da da"
anyway, it's 4:30, time to get back to work, as I'm 100% recovered ;)
rhubarb later folks
~
 
lol... try: youtube.com/… when you get a mo' :)
 
A markdown standard supported by github, reddit, and stack overflow
 
@davidism interesting
 
There's been talk for a while, I think it's a pretty good idea
 
@davidism Was scanning through the spec earlier; nice to finally have one.
 
2:40 AM
hiding again were we @Zero? :)
 
wow, I just failed hardcore
Turns out today was OOP w/ Python
ACK
 
@JonClements Moi?
 
I thought they'd still be on FizzBuzz level stuff
 
Honestly I don't really hide ... usually this chat's in a pinned tab, so unless I make a point of clicking "leave" before I shut the browser down, I get logged in without consciously deciding to.
 
And it was the whole class, so I couldn't just fake it one-on-one
 
2:42 AM
@Zero but I'm pleased that if the automated joining wasn't the case, you'd have done so manually anyway? cough :p
@SomeKittens so errr, didn't go well?
 
one sec, dog's barking at something
 
@Jon it's not called Pluto is it?
 
3:06 AM
LOL - no - he's called "Gus"
quite funny really cos I always leave the back door open so he can go wee-wee or number 2
 
@JonClements Nope. I have no idea how to do OOP in Python
learned it Freshman year, promptly forgot it
pulled the old "Let's all walk through it together" trick, which partially worked
 
@SomeKittens well... OOP programming in Python is somewhat different than languages such as C++/C# etc...
 
I'm a JavaScripter
though we're modeling has-a relationships, which is slightly easier than is-a
though they also covered is-a today
 
I think the traditional line is that "A Car is a Vehicle (the is-a), but a subclass of a Vehicle might have zero or many wheels (has-a)
 
Yeah, they did the Car thing today
we're doing BuildingManager now
 
3:18 AM
how does that go then - I have a gut feeling that's an introduction to multiple inheritance
OOP is useful if used properly then it's really good, but sometimes (no doubt either with inexperience or reading bad books), it ends up a nightmare
I generally find over abstraction more of an issue. At least with some code base, I can abstract to a suitable level and get on, rather than de-abstract unnecessary abstraction in the first place... (think that makes sense)
 
For Python's C API...
...i'd like to save as much space as possible.
 
@NoobSaibot ?
 
Instead of storing a PyObject in a PyListObject, or something...
...is it good practice to just increment the ref-count twice, use a move a weak-reference around, then "double-decrement" when i'm done?
 
If you're insane then yes
 
@JonClements: Sorry, i wanted to be as clear as possible. :-)
BAhahahaha
 
3:32 AM
just do what you need to do with resources and let the core engine do its job
 
I take it the downside is basically "oops, i forgot"?
Crazy ideas are really attractive to me. :-)
I just wanted to make sure i didn't rip a hole in the time-space continuum, or anything.
 
so in response to "is it good practice..." - no - definitely not
 
Though i am still brainstorming here, so...
Thanks, @JonClements.
 
nothing to stop you doing it... but please don't :)
 
I read somewhere that "the key" to efficient C is to use ints.
(I assume) Ref counts are incremented in integers.
...which should be a lot smaller than PyObjects.
 
3:36 AM
Do you know C ?
 
But there be dragons, i guess.
Meh, i'm learning.
 
Do you know how memory allocation and pre-allocated heaps and dynamic allocation works, how auto-promotion of types works, etc... ?
 
This isn't "premature optimization" (yet). I'm still brainstorming the...
...skeleton of my application (I don't know the proper programming term).
 
"skeleton" is as good as any
 
3:38 AM
get it functional, get it through the test cases, worry about it later
 
I obsess over the "skeleton" before i type a single line.
 
@Zero got hammered before I even loaded the page :)
 
@JonClements :-D
 
But in my defense, concurrency makes everything harder...
@ZeroPiraeus: Looks like he just joined SO.
 
@NoobSaibot indeed... but that's not related to what you're asking really is it
 
3:41 AM
No, just...continuing what looks like a dead conversation...
 
I'm fairly sure this isn't the first time you've been asked for clarification via the room (either the management team or its members)
 
Am i going to get banned?
 
You've done nothing to warrant such action as yet
 
narrowed eyes But we're watching you ...
 
@Zero you missed the cackling laughter?
muahahha muahahhaha muhahahaha
or something like that
 
3:46 AM
On the other hand, dogs are always welcome here :-)
 
oh... reminds me that I need to buy some more ink
always amazes me though, I can get a new printer with ink for the same cost (or less) than buying ink cartridges for the existing one
 
@ZeroPiraeus: Now you know who's really behind this keyboard.
 
4:14 AM
Has anyone come across a problem with/reading material for reference-counting with threads?
i.e..: What if `AnObject` is referenced in `Thread1` and `Thread2`, and `kill(AnObject)` is called in `Thread1`?
 
cbg
@NoobSaibot ?
 
cbg @Antti :-)
 
What is 'cbg'?
Nevermind.
 
I don't understand...
@AnttiHaapala: Cabbage?
Black Eyed Peas
 
5:00 AM
cbg
is the room still rendering the Sound of Silence?
 
def amplitude():
    while True:
          yield 0
 
I guess that means yes
 
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "soroom.py", line 1, in soroom
  File "soroom.py", line 4, in amplitude
KeyboardInterrupt
 
5:21 AM
Okay, so I practically never use Python on Windows - can someone who does sanity-check this answer for me? It works in a Windows 7 VM on my machine, but this is really not my area, so a quick once over by someone with more experience in this environment would be good:
0
A: Adding to Python 3.4 Path Dir

Zero PiraeusIf you want to avoid setting environment variables, you can add a directory to your path by creating a .pth file in the folder %APPDATA%\Python\Python34\site-packages (you may have to create the folder). For example, with %APPDATA%\Python\Python34\site-packages\anything.pth containing the single...

 
dunno about the appdata :D
but I do not even have that windows 7 vm :d
 
Yeah, well, some of us occasionally have to test things in IE :-/
 
is it wrong to want to go to your client's office and strangle them?
 
Yes. You should make your client come to you.
 
Wanting is fine :-)
 
5:35 AM
@davidism that's a good point - saves travel costs for me - good thinking
 
... it's what you do that defines you.
 
I'm getting somewhat sick and tired of (albeit paid) writing documentation that no one bothers to read
Sadly, if I want to keep clients, the RTFM is not the correct approach however tempting it is
 
@MattDMo I like the changes, I'll link it on trello for others to look at first.
 
I even do screenshots, little pointy arrows and such, even get out of my habit of writing things concisely...
 
You could hire a profesional hypnotist to insert subliminal messages in the documentation which will induce the client to read the docu... no, hang on ...
 
5:40 AM
OK, thanks!
 
@JonClements Hopefully those arrows are done freehand in MS Paint ...
 
@davidism @MattDMo for what it's worth - it gets my go ahead
@davidism you're head dev on the project - so up to you, but won't see any disagreement from me - and I'm fairly sure Stewie won't object
(and then it goes silent...) - watches the tumble weed flutter by
 
6:01 AM
OK, I'll merge/release tomorrow afternoon.
rbrb
 
oh boy.. I'm good ;)
I haunted down the trickiest memory leak error I've ever seen in like 30 minutes
with having a breakfast in parallel :D
no one else is happy about it?
-- oh, you envy bastards :D:D
 
Well, it looks like that elusive 500-rep-bounty easy question that no-one else has spotted isn't going to show tonight ... so I'm off to bed :-)
rbrb all ...
 
@ZeroPiraeus LOL
rhubarb @ZeroPiraeus
 
6:21 AM
sighs dream job has fallen through
to-ing and fro-ing on a semi-signed provisional contract
turns out it was a pure management role and not hands on
not for me in my stage of life
 
that's very bad news, isn't it @JonClements?
 
not really
 
this was the job, which you thought would take most of your time?
 
that's the one
 
that's kind of good news for us then -- as I assume, you are not going to step off, right?
 
6:29 AM
turns out I'd be obliged to travel a huge amount, manage international teams blah blah
 
it sounds interesting for a short amount of time..
 
perhaps... not something I want right now though
 
well, my sister had this kind of job (lots of traveling, managing teams locally -- but not a programmer job) and she really enjoyed it for a short period of time (1-2 years)
but after that, the whole travelling became so frustrating
 
I've managed teams before, built teams from scratch - so not a problem to me (hope it shows)
 
and not having the kind of continuity just made her very tired
@JonClements It shows! -- yelled the crowd.
 
6:33 AM
and the £'d would be have been awesome, but I'm not greedy... I can pay the bills, enjoy life... what more could I wish really?
 
@PeterVaro anyway, I still am stepped back from the room... time for new blood, as per our last meeting - the management is K&K now, I'm just the self-appointed ChairPuppy now :)
 
...and that's still okay -- as long as you are here as a full-time ChairPuppy ;)
 
@PeterVaro you have to listen to youtube.com/watch?v=WLiyGv3RHLE
welcome @RobertGrant
 
@JonClements I really have no idea, why you are keep posting me these, and why I'm still clicking on these links hoping, maybe this one would work... :D:D
 
6:41 AM
I'm hoping in vain perhaps I can convince you to the dark side of lyrics? :p
wb @Benjamin
 
@JonClements thanks
morning all
 
cabbage @RobertGrant
 
cabbage @Jerry
P.s. I don't know what cabbage is :)
is it to do with german bombardments of london?
Oh okay, I understand now. I read that thing and didn't take it in the first time. Sprouts.
 
7:00 AM
Cbg()
@Jon sorry to hear about that job falling through.
 
ahhhh.. the unexpected bug of the day: the water pipes in the street had been broken, no water for like 3 hours or so..
cbg @Ffisegydd
 
are the () after cabbage a python 3 thing?
 
@Ffisegydd it's fine mate... probably for the better really
@Ffisegydd STEWIE!!!!!!!
 
It's because cbg is a function
Jul 30 at 7:09, by Ffisegydd
In [7]: def cbg(cbg=[]):
   ...:     cbg.append('cbg')
   ...:     print(' '.join(cbg))
   ...:

In [8]: cbg()
cbg

In [9]: cbg()
cbg cbg

In [10]: cbg()
cbg cbg cbg
 
@Ffisegydd Then you have a Name error ;)
 
7:08 AM
Everytime someone calls cbg() it gets bigger and bigger
 
ah :)
 
(Yeah I was on my phone and it autocapitalised :P)
 
I know that feel bro :D
 
@Ffisegydd what action (if any) are you deciding to take on the email?
 
@Ffisegydd ...and the purpose of this?
 
7:09 AM
I meant to speak to people last night when "everyone" was around but didn't get around to it
 
@PeterVaro might be remind people of the mutable default arguments....
 
I will do so this afternoon/evening and see what others think
If there is general consensus then set something up for early-mid next week.
 
@thefourtheye as a python noob, I'm still not happy with that being called a default argument :)
 
@thefourtheye fair enough ;)
 
@PeterVaro It's because default mutable arguments are FUN!
 
7:11 AM
more like a default constructor argument in my sad, Java-based background
 
@Jon in particular want to speak to davidism to see if he's interested in speaking about sopython-site
 
@Ffisegydd I'm not pushing the point (even though it may appear I'm doing so... how ironic) - I've stood back, and I'll give hints... but ultimately, you do what you wish mate.
 
It's a good idea and I do appreciate your hints :P
 
just respect the ChairPuppy's AUTHORITTTEEEE (said in the worst Eric Cartman voice ever)
 
I'm slightly worried about having meetings when nothing will be discussed, especially if people make an effort to attend I don't want them thinking "Oh well that was a waste of my time, 5 minutes actual conversation then it degenerated into an insane dog and a baby...won't bother coming again". But as it's been a while since the last one it would be good to see if anyone has any ideas that they maybe haven't brought up, for that and a discussion on sopython-site I think it's probably worth it.
 
7:19 AM
@Ffisegydd the thing about meetings is yes, if they're so regular as to warrant "why do I even bother" - they're useless
However, since we're trying to be the greatest channel on the network, we need feedback, and that's an opportunity to receive some. If no one turns up, then so be it... we know where we stand
If people turn up and say all's good - we know where we stand
 
If no one turns up we send out the hounds.
 
If people turn up and have genuine issues that we need to address, then you need to address them appropriately on behalf of the team
 
@JonClements in my experience a person feels that more when either other people aren't able to recognise his/her good ideas, or he/she is not able to recognise his/her bad ideas :)
 
@JonClements Not if I hide under my blankie I don't!
 
@RobertGrant indeed... but I'd rather much allow such an individual to express their opinions than pretend they don't exist
let us know a date/time Stewie, I'll chair
wow... mint flavoured tea
 
7:28 AM
I'll speak to Kevin and davidism tonight to hear their thoughts but I think early next week would be best for me as my boss won't be back yet so I can take an hour or so in the office to SO easily without worrying
 
@Ffisegydd make it so if you feel appropriate
 
@JonClements agreed, I'm just saying it might be more one of those things than the regularity of meetings that causes people to feel that way
 
Wow, this really sadly works, cup of tea, was chewing some gum, put the gum in what I thought I was an empty mug, put it in my cup of tea instead, it's really quite nice
 
Will speak to Kevin (it is afterall K+K and not just +K :P ) and check that davidism is happy to discuss the sopython-site and the future of it. Then have an open-house for issues
 
test
 
7:32 AM
@Ffisegydd sounds like a fantastic idea... thanks for coming up with it :p
wonder if the putting chewing gum works for ceylon and earl grey.... ummm
 
It is a great idea. I feel that I took inspiration from my dog but seeing as how dogs can't talk it must have been my idea all along...
 
Yes... it was your idea... but also wasn't your idea to give the cute doggy a scooby snack?
 
I would give the nice puppy a scooby snack for inspiring me but unfortunately I should get out of this dressing gown, get dressed, and go to work.
 
cbg @Ian
 
Sorry puppy!
cbg() @Ian
 
7:35 AM
@Ffisegydd NO NO NO - biscuit first!
 
Wow Sumer's latest account has been deleted already
Luckily they didn't delete his questions so I keep my 60 rep :P
 
Cbg @Jon & @Ffisegydd :)
 
How goes your morning evil/neutral/good @Ian?
 
@Jon re. MattDMo's CSS change. I like it (but also liked the old version so don't particularly mind either way). I'll speak to him to see if he wants to get involved with the facelift aspect of it when we have the eventual full re-design.
 
@Ffisegydd I prefer the new one if that counts... I think David is going to put it into the next release, but wanted to check with you first or something :p
ahhh no, that was regarding something else... poor puppy's memory
8 hours sleep over 4 days plays tricks with your mind me thinks
 
7:45 AM
My morning goes pretty well thanks @Jon - been crazily busy over the last couple of weeks, but finally found a front-end guy so I can now once again focus on "coding" as my primary work
 
@Ian excellent - how many interviews did you have to do?
 
8:29 AM
Morning
 
Cabbage
 
Wow, this is amazing
 
@thefourtheye it was posted by @Ffisegydd yesterday -- and yes, it ;)
 
Oops, sorry then...
 
8:34 AM
cbg @Martijn
 
they are just good:
 
@PeterVaro lol
 
@MartijnPieters it is good, isn't it? I have to grab a bookbook right now:)
 
@PeterVaro So compelling!
 
omg... did the matrix just glitch
massive de ja vu
just done exactly what I dreamt about 5 years ago
 
8:49 AM
@JonClements it always does that.. I'm not bothering about it -- they modified something, so be it -- but still, what's your de ja vu now?
how long have you been keep tracking your dreams?
 
@Peter all my life?
able to do lucid controlled dreams
 
what if your whole life is just a long dream? -- wonders mysteriously
 
but that's neither here nor there
 
@JonClements presumably it's wherever you want it
 
@JonClements I get deja vu all the time
 
8:51 AM
@Peter then I'd hopefully dream up something better... unless I'm a masochist or something :p
 
@JonClements you are a little contradict to yourself today..
2 hours ago, by Jon Clements
and the £'d would be have been awesome, but I'm not greedy... I can pay the bills, enjoy life... what more could I wish really?
 
and I knew you were going to re-post that
 
:D:D:D
 
@JonClements farrr too many (like 11/12 I think!)
 
see? you knew that, because I'm just a guy of your imagination -- I'm in your dream too!
 
8:54 AM
@JonClements sorry to hear that fell through!
not quite the dream you hoped it was then?
that sucks :-/
 
@Martijn for the best.... nah... it was pure management and huge amounts of travel
As @Peter's pointed out, I certainly wouldn't miss the salaray it was offering, but oh well... more important things to be getting on with :p
 
uhh.. I just played through this "we are all in Jon's dream" and in my scenario, I yelled at Jon "Wake up, buddy, hear me, wake up, c'mon!" and then he finally woke up and it was a very strange feeling for me as I disappeared like a smoke..
it was a very weird mind-experiment..
 
@Peter no... you're just dreaming that you're dreaming me
 
@JonClements BAAAAAAARRRRGGGGHHH... titutitutiitutittutuiit... BBBBAAAAAARRRRRGGGGHHH!
3
 

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