last day (216 days later) » 

3:46 PM
To discuss github.com/ircmaxell/PHP-RFC-Process-Redux (private, just ask me for access)
 
 
2 hours later…
5:38 PM
@rdlowrey you need access to the (currently empty) repo, right?
 
user895378
Yes, please.
 
done
 
user895378
I'm in hardcore code mode this afternoon, but ping me for any happenings or input requests.
 
yeah, I just wanted to get setup, nothing's going to happen for a few days likely
 
 
1 hour later…
6:47 PM
foo
 
bar
 
user895378
baz
 
I see already heavy discussions going on here :-)
 
7:15 PM
:-)
who needs access to the repo?
 
8:03 PM
I'll be requesting it later. Need to actually get around to creating a github account first :p
 
:-)
 
@Charles wat??
@ircmaxell Can I haz access to see what is going on? pretty please :)
 
what's your github user? peehaa?
 
yes
brb
 
@PeeHaa I haven't been able to really spend any off-hours work doing any significant coding in five-ish years. Even then, I use hg instead of git, so I use Bitbucket :)
 
8:11 PM
done
2 messages moved to bin
non-RFC related discussion should go in Room 11: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/11/php
room topic changed to PHP-RFC Process Discussion: A room to discuss a new PHP RFC process. Non-RFC discussion should go into room 11 (no tags)
 
Ah, groovy. Thanks. :)
 
almost want to make the room gallery for that reason... But inclusivity ftw...
 
what's this about?
 
8:27 PM
So we were talking yesterday about the vote, and abuses of process
and instead of sending that mail to abort this vote, and all that jaz
instead, we were talking about drafting a set of proposals to fine-tune and nail down the processes (who can vote, whether edits can happen after pushing to vote, etc)
 
@ircmaxell k, pls add me
 
done
 
Today is a holiday for me (Pioneer Day)
It's been nice and relaxing, especially since I've been sick.
 
:-/
 
8:30 PM
So have I missed anything important yet?
 
@ircmaxell wow, those are some detailed proposals :D
 
@NikiC it's a start :-)
all I did was create a repo, and a chat room
 
So... do I just lobby ideas?
A two-third majority vote is required for all RFCs.
How about that?
 
@LeviMorrison +1 by me
what I think is I'll copy the original RFCs, and use them as a springboard
 
8:34 PM
omgfwtf
 
Pierre just replied to a mail by Zeev with a substring "I agree"
 
Ha
 
Actually it even was "I totally agree"
And Zeev's reply: "Maybe there’s hope for the middle east" ^^
 
@ircmaxell I'm not involved or knowledgeable enough with internals to contribute but I am interested in the discussion and ideas you guys come up with if you're handing out read-only access
Username: cspray
 
8:39 PM
@cspray I'm open to anyone contributing.
 
Well, I'm not opposed to contributing ;) I just realize that I'm fairly new to PHP in general and my focus has been almost entirely on the userland side.
 
user895378
I love the smell of ownership in the afternoon.
 
:-)
 
Had to do a refresh to get italic names.
 
9:42 PM
@ircmaxell I had the realization a bit ago that it isn't so much that you need 2/3 of people to agree with you, it's more that if more than 1/3 of the people disagree with you that should be alarming.
 
@LeviMorrison exactly
 
Let's say you are proposing an idea to a board of investors with 9 people.
If four investors disagree with your idea that should be quite worrying.
Say you are a political leader of a nation and a survey comes back that 49% of citizens don't agree with your proposed ideas. Not good.
 
user895378
If you're a political leader I'd say 49% approval is about all you can really hope for :)
 
yeah, plus it closes the loophole where you can change an RFC with 50%+1, so you could change the voting RFC, vote in the thing, and then vote back the voting RFC
 
Is a 2/3 majority actually realistic for the majority of the changes, though? Also keep in mind how amazingly divisive internals is.
Devil's advocate.
 
9:58 PM
@Charles That's a good thing
If we can't hit 2/3 then it shouldn't make it through.
Especially for a highly divisive team.
 
Another thought that I would like to throw out there: Require all RFCs to have at least 2 authors (can be anyone), and at least one "sponsor" who has commit karma to the relevant repos
 
@ircmaxell Definitely need a clause somewhere to have a minimum discussion time between votes if a vote was incomplete (not failed; we already have a clause for that)
 
@LeviMorrison What I'm thinking is discussion time is minimum of 1 week after the last non-trivial edit to the RFC prior to starting of a vote.
 
That would work.
More robust as well.
 
yeah, and "no non-trivial edits after voting has started", which would result in killing the vote and resuming a 1 week minimum of discussion
 
10:05 PM
@ircmaxell I think RFC's need at least 4 authors, realistically
 
of course would need to provide a definition of "trivial edit"
@LeviMorrison I don't disagree, but is that worth codifying?
 
We had like 6 of us collaborating on Return Types and we still had some oversights.
I think my point is that it isn't worth codifying; if you can write a good RFC all by yourself and get people to vote on it, then power to you.
I certainly couldn't do it :D
 
@LeviMorrison huh?
 
@NikiC we're talking about adding a minimum author count to RFCs.
6 mins ago, by ircmaxell
Another thought that I would like to throw out there: Require all RFCs to have at least 2 authors (can be anyone), and at least one "sponsor" who has commit karma to the relevant repos
 
Which I don't think will matter.
Yasuo + 1 other person still doesn't sound very promising.
Whereas NikiC all by himself? Has a good shot.
 
10:09 PM
@ircmaxell Got that, just not sure where that requirement comes from
I don't usually coauthor RFCs
 
@NikiC I was talking to someone else about it the other day
basically to formalize the RFC process to be more similar to IETF's, where you have a "subcommittee" work out the RFC prior to proposing. You get a more robust and thorough proposal
 
The technical RFC's like uniform variable syntax don't really need committees as much as feature RFC's, imo.
 
that shouldn't even be an RFC in my mind
well, it should, because it changes the behavior
 
Eh, it changes user-land behavior yeah.
 
I don't think anything really needs committees. OTR discussion without too much formalisms seems fine by me
 
10:13 PM
so perhaps worth codifying different "targets" (implementation, specification+implementation, process and docs)
@NikiC needs? No. Can benefit from? Yes. Can benefit significantly? Yes. Should be encouraged? Yes.
anyway, I'm speaking in a few hours, so I should head home and prepare... Later
 
night
 

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