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1:22 AM
return;
helloc @collielimabean;
 
 
2 hours later…
3:19 AM
@Apoorv is it really? oh that is a shame..
 
 
4 hours later…
7:34 AM
in Python, 8 mins ago, by Peter Varo
I just love this: Open Source Report Card
 
8:32 AM
@PeterVaro nice one! ^_^
 
 
2 hours later…
10:41 AM
Hi guys, how is it going?
I am new to this chat functionality so I thought i'd say hi
 
helloc @imaibou;
and welcome here ;)
 
Thanks peter
 
random pick on the C room, or fan of the language?
 
fan of the language
a linux kernel hobbiest
 
<thumbs up/>
 
10:43 AM
so any tranding topik these days?
 
on C?
 
yeah
 
well.. I don't think there is any..
we talked about mixing languages earlier -- I like that topic
 
yeah i think that is very usefull
 
building large and complex projects, using the proper tools for each task, and make these tools work together
 
10:47 AM
right
C is performant but is a little low level and takes more time to develop
 
exactly -- but works perfectly with Lua or Python for instance
 
other languages may be slow on execution but fast on development
 
which are not that fast, but more pleasant to code in
 
yeah I especially like python
 
me too ;)
 
10:48 AM
supports C out of the box
 
as it is (CPython) is written in C -- that's not so surprising, isn't it?
 
no need to wrap in dll's or other painfull task
nope
and the python standard library is amazing
there is everything you need
 
indeed!
 
and if there isn't, you can quickly find a github project
protect sorry
 
oh btw, have you heard of MicroPython?
 
10:51 AM
no
what is it?
 
@imaibou press the up arrow, to edit your messages
the edit option is available for at most 2 minutes or something like that
@imaibou it is python for microcontrollers
 
ow
 
it is completely rewritten from scratch
 
really handi for hacking gadgets
 
(sure, it is a narrow subset of python)
but it is very impressive, I love it
@imaibou exactly!
 
10:53 AM
did you test it? is it performant?
 
@imaibou quadruple thumbs up! Do You do anything for ARM CPU's on Linux kernel?
 
@imaibou yes, it is quite fast actually
but the best part is the REPL which comes with it
helloc @Apoorv;
 
no not really
just some arduino
 
@imaibou aaah... even more fun! Still fighting with some AVR and Arduino libraries to build and link properly without that sucky IDE!
 
right
that IDE could drive one crazy
 
11:04 AM
@imaibou I couldn't agree more... :( and whole build process of those Adafruit libs is kind a huge mess... lots of magic defines and variables to set... And structure changes on almost each of the new version... Not mentioning some legacy C parts... :/ ghhh
 
hey
 
helloc @BenBeri;
@imaibou although they are absolutely not the same thing, but have you tried the RaspberryPi?
 
Anyone here knows anything about Computational Model you study in computer science?
 
helloc @BenBeri;
 
@BenBeri that's not me :P -- if we are talking about this
 
11:13 AM
@BenBeri aaah... there is something like that in my university. I've almost chosen those studies, but... xD at least here --- a little bit programming, a little bit physics, some algorythms theory and a bit more Numeric Methods :}
but again... I'm not sure how much does this applies to other universities...
remember helping to write some of my friends some astronomic trajectories simulation in C++ :}
 
helloc all;
 
helloc @Apoorv; // again, or still
 
@PeterVaro hmm.. you can predict future? :P
 
helloc @Apoorv; // ^_^
 
@Apoorv it looks like that way :)
 
11:15 AM
@Apoorv kind a... useful skill, must admit that xP
 
but actually for me at that time it looked like you just signed in..
 
i see
first day after vacation and didn't screw anything up
yay
 
@Apoorv isn't it just "still before the storm"? xD
 
oh well, it just might be :)
 
is that your thing? screwing things up after a long vacation? ;)
 
11:20 AM
yep screwing up every time after holidays is my super-power
(even after weekends)
 
well, I can see the future, you can screw thing up after holiday -- @Kamiccolo what is your super power?
 
that probably he is a vampire
 
I thought we all are ;)
 
but he is the one who made us all vampires :P
 
just noticed a funny fact about ROs: all of us are so binary-minded that we all have only black and white avatars ;)
@Apoorv that's probably true... damn you @Kamiccolo!
 
11:24 AM
@PeterVaro didnt notice that before...
 
it is a strange fact, isn't it?
 
it definitely is.. its a conspiracy
 
@Kamiccolo i.imgur.com/gWRGzaV.jpg is that it?
 
it has to be, yes..
 
This is the most unstable room i believe, sometimes there is a whole row and sometimes its almost empty
 
11:29 AM
@Apoorv yeah, but I have no idea why..
I thought C stands for Chat :P
 
that should be the new room description
C for community
C for close-to-machine
C for Chat
 
c for craziness, for control, for community
for code (obviously)
hmm -- I just noticed, that you also wrote community.. sorry then ;)
 
np, just thinking of a new desc as information about C is just... strange
 
room topic changed to C: C stands for Chat. goo.gl/9J8g3S * c-faq.com * cdecl.org * boredzo.org/pointers * en.cppreference.com/w/c/header * sscce.org [c] [c11] [c89] [c99]
 
because everyone on SO probably already knows what C is
 
11:36 AM
@Apoorv better now?
 
looks the same to me :/
 
hit "refresh"
 
better :)
helloc @user2075644
 
@user2075644 you will need 20+ rep to talk on chat
 
helloc @mistgeek
 
11:43 AM
:)
@apoorv thak ya mate
 
Welcome to the C room :)
 
Uhh need a little help from you guys ?
 
we'll try
 
I have finished learning the basics of C now what should I do ??
 
helloc @mistgeek;
 
11:44 AM
define basics
 
@mistgeek you have to write code. lots and lots of code.
 
i mean what exactly do you know
 
helloc @PeterVaro
 
that is the best way of learning a new programming language.
btw: have you tried implementing complex and dynamic data-structures?
 
from 0 to pointers !!
 
11:45 AM
or have you tried using 3rd party libs?
 
I mean functions,pointers,arrays ,loops,datatypes,and lil more than that
 
the syntax is not programming, you should understand how computers work
 
No I havent tried using 3rd party library
 
i think you should try to build something
 
Yeah man I mean I have done some little programming such as making a multiplication table ..
or adding or transposing matrices
and that basic !!
 
11:47 AM
you know
 
@mistgeek then I suggest you to follow these excercies: c.learncodethehardway.org/book
helloc @BartekBanachewicz;
 
Yeah exactly @apoorv I want to learn to build something but what should i do to start ?
 
@mistgeek with an idea
 
It's a really great article.
 
11:47 AM
you need to know what you want to build
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's TL;DR for me atm ;)
but thanks for mentioning, added to my list
 
star it star it :P
anyway I think it's really important because it might mean that procedural, C-like programming will cease to be the most performant way to write code
 
@PeterVaro are you sure? i thought you didnt like it
 
and it kinda shows already, I think.
 
Okay lets say I want to build a GUI calculator is that possible ?
 
11:49 AM
I'm not really into performance that much
@mistgeek C# + WPF?
 
@Apoorv I still don't, but I just went through the other day on all available free materials on C programming
and sadly it is still the best available at this very moment
 
I know that people don't like WPF but it's really pretty OK to work with, at least for a beginner.
 
@mistgeek hmmm... GUI is a completely different field
 
@Bartek do you mean I should learn C# ?
 
@BartekBanachewicz after I read it, and I still think it worth it, I will, I promise
 
11:50 AM
@mistgeek how many languages do you know already? I'm kind out of context
 
@BartekBanachewicz he wants to learn C
 
@PeterVaro it certainly is. It's a very famous article, written 10 years ago, which predictions have proven true today.
@Apoorv @mistgeek why would he want to do that?
 
@apoorv Completely different ? You mean to say if i want a gui based prog then i'll have to learn again from beginning ?
 
@mistgeek Do you want to develop software for microcontrollers?
 
@BartekBanachewicz then thanks again for posting it, will look at it later today
 
11:51 AM
I want to develop softwares ?
 
@mistgeek software is a very broad term (and doesn't pluralize).
 
@BartekBanachewicz I know only one right now ! Thats C !!
 
I mean that GUI has different concepts and creating a GUI in C is generally not a good idea
you can still try
 
I mean programs , apologies !
 
@mistgeek you should learn things that help you achieve your goals. If your goal is to create, say, Windows GUI applications, C# is a much better choice
 
11:53 AM
@apoorv Why is that so ??
 
The more languages, platforms, libraries you know, the more flexible you are when picking tools.
@mistgeek because of many reasons you might not understand yet.
TL;DR low-level programming without First-Class Functions is really annoying when it comes to GUIs
also threading and sync primitives.
Also the ease of designing that gui
and... yeah I could go on, but what for.
 
@mistgeek you can also try problems at Project Euler
 
@BartekBanachewicz So what exactly is C used for then ?
 
@mistgeek mostly microcontrollers nowadays.
 
I am studying in 12th grade and it lies in my course !
 
11:56 AM
So basically non-ARM/non-x86 CPUs
 
@mistgeek it is used in systems with limited resources to make the best of available ones
 
Also in kernel development.
Okay, so let me phrase it better: in freestanding environments.
(IOW Without an operating system)
 
Uh so do you guys mean I am doing it all wrong ? C is an useful language but not for me ?
 
what do you want to do ?
 
@mistgeek most probably, yes
 
11:57 AM
i mean what do you want to achieve by programming?
 
Let me give a small and sweet exampl! I want to make programs like Notepads (more better of course) and other utilities like the one that shows the battery percentages and the network traffics etc ?
Internet Data counters, I mean !
 
@mistgeek Then I suggest C#.
 
Okay can you provide me the required resources(Compilers and eBooks links) for C# ?
 
newest Express Edition of Visual Studio
it has tons of links and materials inside, but in general MSDN is pretty nice
 
@BartekBanachewicz It would be much better if you provide me a link ?
 
12:02 PM
the problem with C# is you really bind yourself to one platform..
 
but it will work only on windows natively
 
if that's not a problem, go with C#
 
@PeterVaro you really don't and nobody cares.
@mistgeek just google "MSDN C#"
you have to learn how to look for resources yourself
it's a very important skill to have
 
@PeterVaro that might not be aproblem !
 
no seriously you can write for everything in C# nowadays
 
12:03 PM
@mistgeek then learn C# -- it is very valuable on the market
 
Okay so what you guys are upto I mean which programming language you use as major?
 
@BartekBanachewicz but you shouldn't
 
@mistgeek C++ at work and Haskell at home, if I have to pinpoint one
@PeterVaro I disagree. Unity is pretty good.
 
I worked with a guy who was literally a one trick pony
 
Cant I use C++ for the same purpose that i mentioned ??
 
12:05 PM
he only knew C# -- he knew it very very well
 
@mistgeek you can use any (general purpose) language for any task, but what for?
 
but even he wanted to develop iOS apps in C#
and ofc he did.. and it was terrible..
 
@PeterVaro a lot of C# unity games run on iphones and run well
 
the codebase, the performance, everything
 
@PeterVaro it's not a problem of the language.
 
12:05 PM
@mistgeek C/C++ isnt a good choice for GUI
 
And honestly I dont want to limit myself to a single prog language !
 
@BartekBanachewicz no, the language is quite okay
 
@Apoorv Well C++ is certainly better at this than C.
@mistgeek C# certainly isn't one.
 
@BartekBanachewicz but it is not the best for GUI
 
@BartekBanachewicz I absolutely disagree with you ofc :D
 
12:06 PM
@Apoorv of course not.
@PeterVaro right, because not having standard threading model helps a lot when making gui applications
 
but as I used to say: for GUI, use a high-level language
 
please.
@PeterVaro such as C++ :D
 
C++ not good for GUI but I can see Adobe Developed Photoshop and all entirely on C++ ?
 
Are you Adobe?
 
@BartekBanachewicz such as Python, Lua, Ruby, Perl, Haskell, Lisp, even JavaScript
but definitely not Java or C++
 
12:07 PM
@PeterVaro Haskell is particularly bad at GUIs
 
@BartekBanachewicz What do you mean to say by C# is not the one
 
@PeterVaro Java and C++ are really better at GUIs than Perl or Haskell
@mistgeek it's a very universal langugage
 
@mistgeek they have to consider several things and as you are just starting out, you really shouldnt do that
 
I hate Perl, and sadly I don't know that much about Haskell.
so I can't judge if it suits GUI programming or not
 
@mistgeek you can but its not a good option for a beginner
 
12:09 PM
@PeterVaro Reactive FP is still very experimental
 
I see
 
@PeterVaro still, Java/Swing and C++/Qt are really quite usable
 
Hmmm!
So can I use any programming language if I know how to use it ?
For any purpose ?
 
anyway, I gotta run now -- I have to grab something to eat, I cannot focus on my task.. I'm starving ;/
 
@mistgeek yes, but that's usually dumb
 
12:10 PM
I'm getting more and more confused now !
 
see you guys later
goto lunch;
 
@mistgeek some languages are simply better at some tasks than the others vOv
 
@PeterVaro What are you working on currently ?
 
@mistgeek you can also play football with a watermelon but its just not good enough as it will break your leg
 
@BenBeri state machine to evaluate some bits/patterns/whatever :} trying to remember the exact English name of this.
 
12:11 PM
@Kamiccolo that's called a CPU
:P
 
@Apoorv :) !!
So where should I begin I am getting confused !
 
@mistgeek if you want to develop GUI applications for windows, C# is the best choice right now.
 
Can I learn more programmind languages in future ?
 
yes, and you certainly should do that.
 
@mistgeek you cannot you must
 
12:16 PM
Does anyone have a social network(Facebook) ??
 
@BenBeri I guess it's NDFA (Nondeterministic Finite Automaton, because it does have couple of different end states and could stuck on the loop. But need some more info for that :} Moore Machine probably...
 
@apoorv @BartekBanachewicz thank you !
 
@mistgeek I think Mark Zuckerberg has one
 
LoL I mean you guys ??
Only if you dont mind !! Hmm...
 
I frequently sit here vOv
 
12:19 PM
you can speak here
 
Its okay :) !! yeah I will !
 
> Remember that people have been doing object-oriented programming since at least the days of Simula in the late 1960s. But OO didn’t become a revolution, and dominant in the mainstream, until the 1990s. Why then? The reason the revolution happened was primarily that our industry was driven by requirements to write larger and larger systems that solved larger and larger problems and exploited the greater and greater CPU and storage resources that were becoming available.
> OOP’s strengths in abstraction and dependency management made it a necessity for achieving large-scale software development that is economical, reliable, and repeatable.
cc @PeterVaro this is a great quote (but yeah read the whole thing :) )
 
@BartekBanachewicz and this is on paper xP actually.. enjoyed this branch of Math a lot. All those lambda calculus, Hilbert calculus, Sequence calculus started to make sense while having in mind basic concepts of CPU.
btw, someone is on his good mood today xD (Bartek)
 
@Kamiccolo I betatested new starbucks coffee :3
that's a guaranteed mood booster
 
Gotta go catch you guys later :)
 
12:31 PM
free @mistgeek;
 
@PeterVaro oh, I was forgotten this! xD
@BartekBanachewicz heh, going to buy couple of boxes of Club-Mate for me and couple of colleagues for the same purpose xP
 
@Kamiccolo oooh I've drank that recently
 
mostly for the sense of CCC :}
 
didn't like it a lot though
but it was the IceT version
 
@BartekBanachewicz ufff... plain one? Or some... other spiced one?
 
12:56 PM
goto away;
 
away:
    goto back;
 
return for_a_sec;
@Kamiccolo that looks sweet, I want to try one now..
 
1:16 PM
goto away;
 
@Kamiccolo Sorry about the late rseponse - figured out how to grab localhost address through arpa/inet.h and sending a string to the inetaddr() function
 
@collielimabean aaah... thanks :}
 
 
1 hour later…
2:26 PM
return;
 
@Apoorv sup
 
nm, doing some simple trig practice
 
> We desperately need a higher-level programming model for concurrency than languages offer today
another great quote :O
 
I read the article, btw
for me in 2014 it didn't say anything ground breaking or new..
but sure, in 2004 it had been an amazing article
 
@PeterVaro It kinda contradicts itself though
 
2:36 PM
what do you mean?
 
Herb states that "languages that are used for heavy optimizations" will gain new life, and at the same time states what I quoted above.
e.g. I think that C makes it exceptionally hard to write concurrent programs in because of its very low-level nature specifically
by comparison, pure FP is way easier at that.
Scaling the CPUs to hundreds of cores could suggest that heavily-parallelized operations could and will run faster, even if they are wasteful in the single-core operations.
 
actually.. writing anything in the lower-levels needs more boiler-plate so to speak, while in a very high level language it could be a single line actually
and this is also true to multi-processing as well
as any other task needs to be implemented..
so this is not a new thing at all -- this subject/topic is not an exception
 
@PeterVaro I mean that specifically it's much harder to parallelize low-level code
which in turn negates its performance benefits
For example, assembly is gnerally the most efficient way to write code, but you wouldn't write the whole app in it because it's not worth it
 
oh I now understand what you meant
mostly because it is not portable
 
a more illustrative example would be a library implementing a function. If such a library, written in C, runs in one second on one core, but a high-level language, when run on four cores runs in 0.5s, it might be better to use the "slower" version
yeah, performance is a fun topic.
 
3:36 PM
incidentally
nginx is (unsurprisingly) written in C
cc @PeterVaro ^
 
4:04 PM
@BartekBanachewicz aaah... I guess You can get more throughput with right NGinx coniguration... but still, the point doesn't change :}
 
@Kamiccolo the authors of the benchmark claim that they have configured nginx properly vOv
 
@BartekBanachewicz can You stand for their authority of configuring NGinx? xD And there is plenty of fixes since 1.4.0. Some of them directly related to performance.
 
@Kamiccolo dunno, I came upon that graph separately from this discussion
 

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